2012-08-19 GnuCash IRC logs
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09:17:24 <warlord> Okay, we're back. There was a bad splice in the cable outside causing bits to stop flowing. It's been fixed and we're back up.
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09:21:09 <warlord> now to recover ops
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09:38:37 <warlord> @op
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09:38:41 <warlord> @op mikee
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09:38:48 <warlord> @op benoitg
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10:13:15 <warlord> hiya fell. network should be better now
10:13:58 <warlord> oh, oops.. you're not here
10:23:11 <astro> /sb c
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10:40:39 <warlord> astro: ??
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11:32:40 <astro> warlord: sorry. typo
11:43:39 <warlord> no worries.
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14:18:49 <RJ> Asked earlier, but I gather there were some network issues, so I'm re-asking: Running 2.4.10 on Gentoo (they haven't bumped up to 11 yet), and having an issue with autocomplete/quickfill. I'll type a letter or two in the description, and as usual it will show a suggestion, with the remainder highlighted. If I am too slow to continue typing the rest (and by too slow, I mean something less than a second), the suggestion will become unhig
14:18:50 <RJ> hlighted, the cursor move to the end of the field (as though I had pressed the right-arrow), and whatever I had continued to type will fill in from there...
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15:53:33 <RJ> A note on my previous question: it appears to be a problem under KDE. A simpler WM (TWM) does not show the false autocomplete issue.
15:53:58 <RJ> I know you're not KDE developers, but any thoughts on what might be interfering?
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16:52:56 <cjm_> Hi Folks, I am using GnuCash for the first time after a 15 year "relationship" with Quicken. I am afraid that I am totally dependent on the OFX ability and you can only imagine my joy with my discovery that GnuCash supports OFX. Yes! So, I entered my accounts -- two checking and one credit card. So far, so good. But...
16:53:58 <cjm_> Actions > Online Actions presents a list where nothing is active.
16:54:33 <cjm_> Earlier I was able to select choices, so something has happened in the interim.
16:54:48 <smw> I believe that means you don't have online banking setup
16:54:59 <smw> tools -> online banking setup
16:56:35 <cjm_> I have done that. How can I confirm this?
16:57:35 <smw> go into the abq banking wizard
16:57:39 <smw> do you see things setup?
16:57:47 <cjm_> smw, As I mentioned, I completed two or three "exchanges" with Wells Fargo. I got no correct information, so something is wrong in my setup, but I have had online banking "working" earlier.
16:58:07 <smw> hm... not sure then :-\
16:58:42 <cjm_> AqBanking... 1 user, 3 accounts.
16:59:44 <cjm_> I think GnuCash believes that he is already engaged in an on-line exchange. He's wrong, but I don't know how to disabuse him of the notion.
17:00:11 <smw> restart gnucash? I don't have much experience with it.
17:01:26 <cjm_> smw, Restarted several time... Is there a backend daemon that I need to restart? A service? anything beyond the application?
17:01:39 <smw> nope
17:01:43 <smw> no backend process
17:02:09 <cjm_> Something similar to the Windows Registry maintaining state?
17:02:23 <smw> nope
17:02:32 <smw> you are using xml?
17:02:42 <smw> I don't know much about the database stuff
17:02:58 <cjm_> I'm not aware of anyplace I had a choice, so I assume I am.
17:03:11 <cjm_> Actuall....
17:03:18 <cjm_> Now that you mention it...
17:03:26 <cjm_> How do I get back to that level of setup?
17:03:43 <smw> save as
17:04:38 <cjm_> No.... Not quite what I meant. I DO remember some hints about MySQL and PostgreSQL, but I was focused on other things.
17:04:50 <cjm_> Oh!!!!
17:04:55 <cjm_> Stand by...
17:05:38 <cjm_> Yes.... That's where it is.
17:10:50 <cjm_> Clearing out the stuff in GnuCash fixed the problem. Thanks very much.
17:11:03 <cjm_> I think I like the idea of having a database behind. Where can I learn about this?
17:11:45 <smw> why do you want a database?
17:12:03 <smw> I like the xml better. The XML makes a new copy on each save
17:14:10 <cjm_> smw, I think XML is probably pretty good, but unless it is being managed by a XML database, aren't I going to increase the size of the data file with consequent startup/processing costs? Databases are designed to do these things in a scaleable way.
17:14:37 <smw> yeah
17:14:57 <smw> sqlite is the obvious choice. It is as easy as xml but still a database
17:16:00 <cjm_> I only have MySQL and PostgreSQL as choices and I already know a whole lot about each of these. Or I have in past lives. (-:
17:16:25 <smw> nice
17:16:41 <smw> sqlite works in a file without a separate server
17:16:49 <smw> but if you want to setup a server... have fun :-)
17:19:06 <cjm_> I sqlite is a file access library, then it is likely they are doing that. One thing I just realized when you commented, "but if you want to setup a server... have fun :-)" is that I can put my financial data on a server, but still access it, and that sounds like a really good idea to me. I've had my computer stolen before and it was an enormously painful experience. Puting data on a server sounds like a really good idea.
17:19:50 <smw> cjm_, cool. I put my data in dropbox :-)
17:19:54 <smw> so yeah, not a bad idea
17:20:25 <cjm_> smw, Dropbox for backup, but you still have a copy on the notebook?
17:20:34 <cjm_> Or dropbox ONLY?
17:20:49 <smw> dropbox only
17:20:59 <smw> but dropbox replicates everywhere...
17:21:18 <cjm_> That sounds like a good plan.
17:21:52 <cjm_> Talk to me about GnuCash. Have you ever used Quicken or Quickbooks?
17:22:15 <smw> I have not used it enough to be useful :-)
17:22:28 <smw> I did some data entry when I was a freshman in highschool ;-)
17:22:38 <cjm_> So, how loing with GnuCash? Do you do OFX online stuff?
17:23:13 <smw> no, I don't use OFX
17:23:21 <cjm_> OFX is the reason I have kept with Quicken for so long. Nobody else had it for love or money.
17:23:36 <smw> I tried it, didn't like it
17:23:36 <cjm_> Well, then I'm a pioneer?
17:23:38 <cjm_> (-:
17:23:40 <smw> decided to just do it manually
17:24:04 <smw> one day I will get tired of doing it manually and switch ;-)
17:24:49 <smw> as for how long I have been using it... I used it a year ago for 3 months. Now I started using it again this month :-P
17:26:41 <smw> cjm_, I think you have more experience with this stuff. Anyways, why did you switch from quickbooks?
17:27:03 <cjm_> I've been a Quicken prisoner for nearly 20 years. And Quickbooks for over 10
17:27:22 <smw> prisoner you say? lol
17:28:07 <cjm_> Intuit is populated with morons. Ex: Earlier versions of QB required that you RUN as an administrator!!! There is nothing about QB that requires elevated privs! What's wrong with theses guys?
17:28:30 <cjm_> Mostly I really object to being force to buy a new copy every three years.
17:29:30 <cjm_> However, I tolerated this abuse because I was unwilling to give up the online features.
17:30:07 <smw> ah, I see
17:30:20 <smw> microsoft money and the others also have ofx...
17:30:31 <smw> but whatever. glad you chose gnucash :-)
17:30:41 <cjm_> And now enter GnuCash, which looks very much like a replacement for BOTH.
17:30:53 * smw imagines he is fired as gnucash's spokesperson
17:31:54 <cjm_> Microsoft Money would, of course. I never though to that.
17:32:18 <smw> although, isn't microsoft money dead?
17:32:18 <smw> lol
17:32:34 <cjm_> I don't know.
17:32:36 <cjm_> Maybe...
17:33:07 <smw> "Now that Microsoft Money has been discontinued"
17:33:34 <cjm_> That reminds me... Intuit traps you. There is no Export feature, so you have a tough time escaping. I need to e sure that if move to GnuCash, I can move back, if I need to.
17:35:06 <smw> cjm_, not built into gnucash
17:35:27 <smw> but there are bindings for plugins and people have made stuff like gnucashtoqif
17:35:32 <cjm_> Yeah... So I see. there is an "Export Accounts" option, but I can't tell what I will get.
17:35:40 <smw> the real issue is there is no standard format
17:35:46 <smw> cjm_, you would get gnucash files :-\
17:36:29 <cjm_> gnucashtogif is perfect. That means I can climb back on the Quicken bandwagon if necessary. Please, god, don't let that happen. (-:
17:36:37 <smw> lol
17:37:08 <smw> brb 5 min
17:37:16 <cjm_> Well, I have talked to Wells Fargo, and I have a pile of transactions to accept into my register! Yeah!
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17:40:23 <cjm_> I exchanged transactions with Wells Fargo, and I had a list of transactions the Wells Fargo thought I should have, but now I can't find that list. Any idea where it is hiding?
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17:44:00 <smw> not sure what you mean...
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17:50:50 <cjm_> smw, You'v never done that, so I wouldn't have expected you to understand. When I talk to Wells Fargo, he tells me everything about my account that that he knows. So, for example, I write a check to you for $10. That gets recorded in the register. You cash it and Wells Fargo will report that the check has been cashed. I match their report with my register and that completes the transaction, and my balance is suitable reduced.
17:50:53 <cjm_> Get it?
17:51:41 <cjm_> So, WhenI talke to WF, I got a list of transactions that I need to compare with my register.
17:51:52 <cjm_> And I can't find that list. )-:
17:51:53 <smw> yes, I have done that before
17:52:08 <smw> reconciliation?
17:52:14 <smw> or automatic download?
17:52:17 <cjm_> With online transactions or a paper statement? Very similar.
17:52:30 <cjm_> But the time scale is not the same.
17:52:43 <smw> I make sure online transactions balance out over the course of the month
17:52:57 <smw> then I use the digital paper statement to reconcile
17:53:11 <smw> (pdf form. As good as paper :-P)
17:53:22 <cjm_> Similar. I am looking for the list of transactions I just got from WF. I can't find that list.
17:53:43 <smw> I don't understand
17:55:49 <smw> what is this list of transactions you are looking for?
17:55:54 <smw> on WF's site?
17:55:58 <smw> in gnucash?
17:56:07 <cjm_> I exchange with Wells Fargo and Wells Fargo will print and mail any checks I produce, and Wells Fargo will also tell me about anything happeinng to my account from their point of view. They will tell me about the $10 check that I gave you and that yo cashed. I have their list and I get to go through their list on my machine and either MATCH their transactions with a transaction already in my register (when I sent you the check) o
17:56:07 <cjm_> r ADD it to my register (When the pay me interest)
17:56:52 <cjm_> Yes. They give me a list of transactions in GnuCash.
17:56:58 <smw> you want to reconcile?
17:57:01 <cjm_> I MATCH or ADD each one.
17:57:15 <smw> oh, you can do that when importing
17:57:27 <smw> not sure about automated importing...
17:57:44 <cjm_> Reconcilation is against the monthly paper statement, btu maybe gnucahs calls the daily transaction update a reconciliation.
17:58:51 <cjm_> It's not because I don't have a total. But I do have a list of transactions that I need to be sure are in my register. So, maybe this is Reconciliation to GnuCash. Let me look...
17:58:58 <smw> no
17:59:16 <smw> it is not reconciliation then
17:59:19 <smw> I have no idea
17:59:35 <smw> when you import ofx, you can match ofx to gnucash entries
17:59:51 <cjm_> I agree Reconcilatoin is my GnuCash against the banks monthly paper statement.
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18:01:00 <cjm_> Transaction update is different. And I can't find how to do it! NOt exactly true. I can find it but ONLY immediatly after a transaction update. I don't have a residual list from the last update I can use off line. Maybe this is the deisgn.
18:01:27 <smw> what is a transaction update?
18:01:31 <cjm_> I need to discuss this with someone that dose what I do.
18:01:36 <cjm_> Transaction Update?
18:01:46 <cjm_> I write you a check fo $10.
18:01:53 <cjm_> That is recorded in my register.
18:02:05 <smw> you want to clear the transaction?
18:02:15 <cjm_> I do an online transaction exchange with WF.
18:02:17 <smw> (someone cashed the check)
18:02:33 <cjm_> They say, "O.K., will print that check and mail it to swm:
18:02:44 <cjm_> My register shows an uncashed check to you.
18:02:51 <cjm_> Later you cash it.
18:03:07 <smw> when a check is cashed, you can set it as cleared
18:03:11 <cjm_> Wells Fargo says, "swm just cased that check for $10"
18:03:30 <cjm_> I MATCH their transaction with my register.
18:03:32 <cjm_> Get it?
18:03:43 <smw> yes
18:03:50 <smw> ofx import allows that
18:04:31 <cjm_> Yes. It is a "Pending Clear" The transaction is not "Clear" until it is reconciled which is a monthly paper activity. But, yes, the check has cleared.
18:04:40 <cjm_> Yes. But I can't find it.
18:05:06 <smw> cjm_, no, in gnucash cleared and reconciled are different
18:05:10 <cjm_> Not exactly true. I CAN find it but ONLY IMMEDIATELY after a ofx import.
18:05:14 <cjm_> Yes.
18:05:27 <cjm_> cleared and reconciled are different.
18:05:35 <cjm_> Oh!
18:05:40 <cjm_> I see what you mean.
18:05:53 <smw> you can "clear" the check and then reconcile at the end
18:06:04 <smw> In the R column, you have n, c, and y
18:06:05 <cjm_> Cleared is what gnucash calls "Matched" and Reconciled is waht GnuCash calls "Printed on a paper statement".
18:06:08 <smw> no, cleared, yes
18:06:16 <smw> yes
18:06:30 <cjm_> Exactly!
18:06:35 <cjm_> I get it!
18:06:39 <smw> I don't know quicken terms :-)
18:06:54 <cjm_> So, how do I find the list that I use to "clear" transactions in my register?
18:07:09 <cjm_> Thanks for your help.
18:07:26 <smw> there is no list for clearing transaction except the register itself
18:07:53 <smw> there is a list for reconciling at the end of the month
18:08:01 <cjm_> There is a list of transactions from WE, but it appears to be volatile.
18:08:12 <cjm_> It seems to vanish.
18:08:17 <smw> eh? lol
18:08:30 <cjm_> Since this is mearly my first day. I can see I have more exploring to do.
18:08:43 <cjm_> Thanks very much for your help.
18:08:58 <cjm_> I have to leave now, but I'll come back and you can answer more questions.
18:09:01 <smw> reading through the guide is very helpful
18:09:14 <smw> http://code.gnucash.org/docs/guide/
18:09:17 <cjm_> Guide? What guide?
18:09:28 <cjm_> Smokin'! Thanks.
18:09:33 <smw> it is part gnucash, part accounting
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18:09:53 <cjm_> I know a lot about accounting. SO a guide is great.
18:10:06 <cjm_> Gotta go. I find you again. Thanks.
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20:11:52 <nedbat> i'm a total accounting newb, and need help understanding credits, debits, assets, liabilities. Everything seems backwards.
20:12:25 <nedbat> for example, income is treated as a liability?
20:12:28 <smw> what specifically do you need help with?
20:12:35 <smw> no, income is not a liability
20:13:15 <nedbat> smw: but both take an increase as a credit and a decrease as a debit?
20:14:09 <nedbat> smw: on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debits_and_credits), the equation is Assets + Expenses = Equity + Liabilities + Income, which makes it seem like they are treated the same.
20:14:46 <nedbat> smw: I would have thought Assets and Income would be on the same side, and Liabilies and Expenses would be on the same side.
20:14:49 <smw> an increase in income can cause an increase in assets
20:15:07 <smw> an increase in liabilities can cause an increase in assets too
20:15:18 <nedbat> smw: ok, good, the first makes sense, but explain the second?
20:15:28 <nedbat> smw: maybe I'm thinking of liabilities wrong?
20:15:38 <smw> you get a loan for $100
20:15:43 <smw> you have $100 more assets
20:15:50 <smw> and $100 more liability
20:16:03 <smw> net assets is changed by 0
20:16:14 <smw> if you get income of $100
20:16:30 <smw> income goes up 100, assets go up 100, net assets goes up 100
20:16:48 <nedbat> smw: in the wikipedia equation, what is net assets?
20:17:06 <smw> assets-liabilities
20:17:25 <smw> it is not represented in that equation
20:17:35 <smw> but it is what you can think of as what you own
20:17:35 <nedbat> smw: ok, so: Assets - Liabilities = Equity + Income - Expenses
20:17:49 <smw> yes
20:18:03 <nedbat> at least in that equation, things seems to have the right signs.
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20:18:26 <smw> nedbat, yes, I can agree with that :-)
20:18:35 <nedbat> :)
20:19:14 <nedbat> smw: I'm trying to account for my meetup group's finances, and I got advice that when a member donates $50, it's a credit to a liability account.
20:19:25 <nedbat> smw: but a donation doesn't sound like a liability to me.
20:19:31 <smw> I think of it as Assets: what you have, Liabilities: what you owe, income: source of money, expenses: black hole, equity: ... where money that is not income but you still have comes from
20:19:53 <smw> it is not a liability, it is an income
20:20:42 <nedbat> smw: so you would treat it as a credit to an income account?
20:21:12 <smw> yes
20:21:18 <smw> in the register it should say "income"
20:21:59 <smw> nedbat, you are taking money from the income account (crediting) to debit it to your asset account
20:23:08 <nedbat> smw: ok, this might be helping! :)
20:23:36 <smw> nedbat, what version of gnucash are you using. In current version the income account type has "income" instead of "credit"
20:23:43 <smw> and "charge" instead of "debit"
20:24:13 <smw> I think old ones just had debit and credit everywhere. That will mess with your mind.
20:24:43 <nedbat> smw: I'm trying to understand the actual accounting terms, I know the mixture of vocabularies makes it more difficult, but I keep finding references with those terms.
20:25:02 <smw> credit: to take from. Debit: to put into
20:25:12 <nedbat> smw: so gnucash is using different terms on different kinds of accounts?
20:25:38 <smw> yes, for convenience
20:26:00 <smw> Bank uses "deposit" and "withdrawal"
20:26:20 <nedbat> smw: this has been very helpful, thanks.
20:26:43 <smw> but in the end whichever is on the left is for putting money into the account (debit). and whichever is on the right is for taking money out (credit).
20:27:26 <smw> nedbat, are you the same nedbat from #python@freenode?
20:29:04 <nedbat> smw: yes
20:29:17 <nedbat> smw: are you in there too?
20:29:24 <smw> nedbat, you have helped me enough times, I am happy to help you for once :-)
20:29:28 <smw> nedbat, yeah
20:29:33 <nedbat> nice! thanks.
20:29:41 <nedbat> smw: this is for the Boston Python user group.
20:30:01 <smw> cool
20:30:23 <smw> nedbat, also, gnucash has python bindings. I am just learning how they work :-).
20:31:56 <nedbat> smw: to be honest, I'm just working on the concepts now, the tool will come later.
20:32:09 <smw> ah, ok
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20:36:06 <smw> nedbat, out of curiosity, what are you reading?
20:36:16 <nedbat> smw: wikipedia
20:36:25 <smw> ok
20:36:28 <nedbat> smw: and emails from user group members that I asked to help me with this.
20:37:03 <smw> nedbat, you may also want to look at the gnucash guide
20:37:14 <smw> it teaches both gnucash and accounting at the same time
20:37:38 <nedbat> smw: that was the main advice I got: use the gnucash docs. I'm looking at them too.
20:37:38 <smw> http://code.gnucash.org/docs/guide/
20:37:50 <smw> ok
20:38:07 <smw> and then of course there is this channel :-)
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20:43:57 <nedbat> smw: I hope you don't mind other questions of this ilk in the future, live q+a is very helpful.
20:45:55 <smw> nedbat, not at all. This helps me a lot also
20:46:10 <nedbat> smw: how so?
20:46:11 <smw> I did the see one and do one part. ;-)
20:46:25 <smw> never the teach one :-)
20:46:38 <nedbat> smw: teaching is a great way to learn.
20:46:41 <smw> it is forcing me to put it into a way I can explain.
20:46:42 <smw> yes
20:48:01 <nedbat> smw: well then, I'll be sure to ask more dumb questions, to give you the most possible benefit! :)
20:48:17 <smw> lol
21:21:59 <RJ> Anyone have thoughts on how KDE might be interfering with quickfill's highlighting? It's getting really painful trying to add entries and ending up with mangled descriptions...
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23:06:29 <Mer|in> cute https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/pnhechapfaindjhompbnflcldabbghjo/
23:06:41 <Mer|in> yo dawg i heard you like encryption!
23:06:54 <Mer|in> oops wrong window
23:06:55 <Mer|in> sry