2012-07-11 GnuCash IRC logs

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08:03:06 <fell> mikee, warlord: gncbot needs op.
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08:15:48 <YeOldHinnerk> Hi
08:15:56 <YeOldHinnerk> I have a question about stocks.
08:16:16 <YeOldHinnerk> I have created a stock account and am able to update its price online.
08:16:25 <YeOldHinnerk> Now I sold the stock.
08:17:10 <YeOldHinnerk> However, when I want to enter the booking, it keep switching my sell price over to the buy price and increses the pieces I own, rather then reducing it to zero.
08:17:33 <YeOldHinnerk> I'm booking in the stock account. The other involved account is my brokers cash account.
08:18:18 <YeOldHinnerk> What am I doing wrong that I can not enter a sell transaction?
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08:28:27 <mikee> @op fell
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08:28:49 <mikee> fell: Hi Fell.
08:29:19 <fell> Hi, mikee!
08:29:23 <fell> thx.
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08:33:09 <fell> YeOldHinnerk: Enter shares: -x, price:(for which you bought); next row (gains) shares: 0 price: (sell-buy)
08:35:35 <fell> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/De/Buchungsbeispiele#Aktien_und_andere_Wertpapiere
08:36:37 <YeOldHinnerk> ok, the minus sign helped...
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08:36:55 <YeOldHinnerk> My intuition was that this was implied by entering my sell price...
08:37:02 <YeOldHinnerk> thx
08:37:53 <fell> or use this way: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/De/Aktienhandel#Posten-_oder_Los-Verwaltung
08:38:12 <YeOldHinnerk> related question, this time about the accounting aspect:
08:38:29 <YeOldHinnerk> Say I bought 20 shares for 90 and sold them now for 100.
08:38:45 <YeOldHinnerk> I booked from my stock account to my cash account.
08:39:02 <YeOldHinnerk> This is apropriate to account for the cash.
08:39:23 <YeOldHinnerk> But in reality, 200 was a realized gain, while 180 was buying price.
08:39:51 <YeOldHinnerk> If I book as I did I will never see the realized gain.
08:40:00 <YeOldHinnerk> But the problem lays one level deeper:
08:40:19 <YeOldHinnerk> The value of my stock account changes every time I get the online prices.
08:40:50 <YeOldHinnerk> In this case, it should book a hidden loss or gain which can be transferred to realized gains/losses when sold.
08:42:37 <fell> No, never book unrealized gains! The reports with the right options set will show you the pending gains.
08:43:14 <YeOldHinnerk> so, should I also not use the online prices?
08:43:40 <YeOldHinnerk> So that I have the aquisition costs and can book the realized gain propery?
08:43:47 <YeOldHinnerk> properly...
08:45:20 <YeOldHinnerk> or should I just enter the aquisition cost as sel price and add a second booking for the realized gain?
08:45:21 <fell> Use th online quotes, set the right options in your reports and watch the unrealized gains in the reports.
08:45:53 <YeOldHinnerk> but the account value is then updated by the online price as well.
08:46:06 <YeOldHinnerk> Without any proper booking...
08:46:11 <warlord> oops, sorry fell. Forgot to set myself AFK
08:47:13 <fell> About the aquisition cost, I would suggest to ask your Steuerberater. There something changed in 2009.
08:48:10 <fell> warlord: NP, mikee was awake. ;-)
08:48:40 <mikee> fell: For once :)
08:50:02 <fell> Steuerberater: Certified Accountant
08:53:17 <warlord> LOL
08:53:17 <YeOldHinnerk> btw - should we swtich to german?
08:53:32 <YeOldHinnerk> wäre vielleicht einfacher für alle beteiligten :)
08:53:47 <warlord> YeOldHinnerk: no, the account value is never updated with quotes. What gets updates is your *view* of the account value.
08:54:00 <warlord> The account, actually, never *holds* a value, per se. It holds shares.
08:54:06 <YeOldHinnerk> ah, that is good to know.
08:54:11 <warlord> ... and it knows how much you paid for the shares.
08:54:34 <warlord> When you sell, your basis is based on the purchase price and has nothing to do with any quotes you downloaded.
08:55:07 <warlord> the quotes are ONLY for reports (e.g. to report unrealized gains/losses) and to show you your "current value" (again, in the reports, or in the "Total (EUR)" column of the CoA.
08:55:26 <YeOldHinnerk> Ok, that helps to clear up my confusion.
08:55:43 <YeOldHinnerk> thank you.
08:56:01 <warlord> You're welcome
08:56:01 <YeOldHinnerk> another question, completely different topic: split bookings.
08:56:17 <YeOldHinnerk> I have a regular automatic payment out of my checkings account
08:56:25 <YeOldHinnerk> for my insurance treaties.
08:56:49 <YeOldHinnerk> the insurance company charges one amount, while in reality this is for several contracts.
08:56:54 <YeOldHinnerk> I would like to split this.
08:57:12 <YeOldHinnerk> Obviously, since this happens every month, I would like to let GnuCash do this automatically.
08:57:34 <YeOldHinnerk> Is that possible? Does it work with automatic import AND split bookings?
08:57:48 <YeOldHinnerk> How does ti know the amounts - does it assume the same split as before?
08:57:53 <YeOldHinnerk> What is the value changes...?
08:57:57 <warlord> import? or "automatic"?
08:57:59 <YeOldHinnerk> What if ...
08:58:13 <YeOldHinnerk> My checkings account is linked via HBCI.
08:58:29 <warlord> no, hbci does not do splits
08:58:33 <YeOldHinnerk> In the popup, I would like to already have the split booking, ideally with the proper values.
08:58:41 <YeOldHinnerk> I see.
08:58:50 <warlord> the only importer that supports splits is qif
08:59:00 <warlord> if you want splits then you cannot import.
08:59:03 <YeOldHinnerk> Well, ok, would have been nice, but no major issue.
08:59:09 <warlord> you must either use an SX or hand-enter the txn.
08:59:17 <YeOldHinnerk> what is SX?
08:59:19 <warlord> You COULD set up an SX that fired every month
08:59:28 <YeOldHinnerk> I have seen that abbrev already a few times in the doc
08:59:52 <YeOldHinnerk> ah, scheduled transaction?
08:59:53 <fell> SX: scheduled transcations
09:00:00 <YeOldHinnerk> figured from context
09:00:03 <warlord> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_.22SX.22_thing_I_see_on_the_lists_and_IRC_periodically.3F
09:00:55 <YeOldHinnerk> Well, if I did set up a SX, how would I link this the the booking coming in from HBCI?
09:01:06 <warlord> Mark is as a duplicate
09:01:07 <YeOldHinnerk> Would I tell the HBCI to exclude the booking each time?
09:02:14 <YeOldHinnerk> That seems somewhat dangerous, since I may be missing a change in value.
09:02:25 <YeOldHinnerk> Say there is some dynamic in the insurance contract.
09:02:31 <fell> with bayesian algorithm enabled, it should detect the duplicate.
09:03:11 <YeOldHinnerk> I guess I could SX a liability to the insurer each month as a split booking and then use the HBCI to zero the liab out?
09:03:31 <YeOldHinnerk> So if the value changes, the liab account will not be zero.
09:03:55 <warlord> Does that really happen? Or are you trying to grasp at theoretical "what ifs"?
09:04:00 <YeOldHinnerk> I have bayesian enabled.
09:04:07 <YeOldHinnerk> No, it does change.
09:04:19 <YeOldHinnerk> I have a life insurance contract that is increased each year.
09:04:22 <warlord> Worst case you'll figure it out when you reconcile against the printed statement at the end of the month.
09:04:37 <YeOldHinnerk> Also, for some other contracts, values also change annually, but in a different month :/
09:05:56 <warlord> Unfortunately if the amount changes then HBCI wont neccessarily see it as a duplicate.
09:06:37 <YeOldHinnerk> Seems to me, the liab way is the proper thing anyway. If you conseqently do this, you will catch if some withdrawal is different from expected.
09:07:30 <YeOldHinnerk> I'm still not sure if the split is worth the effort though :)
09:10:15 <fell> IMHO for the home user the liab way is overkill.
09:10:49 <fell> But the split has important informations for you.
09:11:42 <YeOldHinnerk> well, yes it would be nice. But then again, it is not a really huge amount.
09:11:54 <YeOldHinnerk> the withdrawl is dominated by the life insurance contracts.
09:14:43 <fell> I think, I would start with a split SX in the real accounts. If the import doesn't detect the duplicate delete that with the wrong amount.
09:16:45 <YeOldHinnerk> I'm still tempted tough.
09:17:03 <YeOldHinnerk> What you would also see, is all the cash that goes do one adress.
09:17:55 <YeOldHinnerk> There are not too many examples of this tough
09:18:00 <YeOldHinnerk> Insurance company
09:18:10 <YeOldHinnerk> Housing administration
09:18:34 <YeOldHinnerk> State / City
09:19:56 <YeOldHinnerk> You would then also have in GnuCash immediately a phone number is there is problem :)
09:20:02 <fell> IIRC for a commercial housing administration there is at least one special template in de_DE
09:20:26 <YeOldHinnerk> no, I mean money I owe to the housing admin, like rent and other costs
09:20:51 <YeOldHinnerk> sorry if that was misleading
09:21:25 <fell> You could help me improving the wiki. :)
09:23:06 <YeOldHinnerk> thinking about it... but I still don't have a working knowledge of GnuCash. Accounting knowledge is ok :)
09:24:16 <YeOldHinnerk> I certainly wouldn't mind helping.
09:25:37 <fell> in wiki/De often I wrote down the results of my trials.
09:27:24 <YeOldHinnerk> talking about it: I justed noticed something that I consider a mistake:
09:27:34 <YeOldHinnerk> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/De/Buchungsbeispiele
09:27:53 <fell> Which section?
09:27:59 <YeOldHinnerk> oh, wait a minute.
09:28:08 <YeOldHinnerk> that's the landlords view, right?
09:29:42 <YeOldHinnerk> Just from reading the text I had the opposite impression, but when I look at the bookings it must be the landlords view.
09:30:01 <fell> Yes, I believe Helmut was is an house owner - by the examples he made.
09:30:03 <YeOldHinnerk> sorry, it even says that - never mind.
09:34:05 <fell> You see in this page, he wrote down how he tried to solv his problems.
09:50:17 <warlord> bayesian has nothing to do with matching to existing transactions. It's only about choosing a correct target account.
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09:58:46 <fell> rpg: Are you still searching an aswer for http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2012/07/2012-07-09.html#T12:14:32 ?
10:08:49 <rpg> fell: yes, please!
10:23:39 <fell> rpg: I fear until now we do not have such an article.
10:24:06 <rpg> I suspect that I should be winnowing out old records, but I do not know how to do so safely.
10:24:35 <fell> The best point in the timeline would be the end of your fiscal year.
10:25:19 <rpg> ISTR that there is no command to remove old entries: googling I see that people have proposed scripts for this purpose.
10:25:32 <fell> Then you could burn your old file to a CD and start over with a new one.
10:25:57 <fell> Accounting NEVER removes records!
10:28:05 <fell> Only in a new copy of the old file one could/should remove the old transactions.
10:29:55 <rpg> so "start over with a new one" you mean make a copy, then do the removal. Or are you suggesting starting over from scratch (re-creating all the accounts with initial balances)?
10:31:02 <YeOldHinnerk> fell: I guess this liab approach would also be usefull for properly accounting for your employer.
10:31:35 <vbatts> db schema ping
10:31:36 <YeOldHinnerk> you can trace taxes, pension plans, any other deductions (like canteen)...
10:32:09 <fell> The official way is: export your accout structure to a new file and enter the closing balance of your old file as the opening balance of the new file.
10:32:41 <YeOldHinnerk> since in checkings I only see the net
10:35:05 <fell> But because you would loose e.g. information about your clients, suppliers and employees, it might be easier to go the unsupported way and delete the unwanted transactions in your new copy.
10:37:56 <rpg> fell: this is actually my personal accounting system, not business, so the official way might work.
10:38:21 <rpg> fell: Am I correct in thinking there is no "mass delete" command for the unsupported way?
10:39:54 <rpg> (that seemed to be why people were authoring scripts)
10:39:55 <fell> One could do it by deleting the content of the transaction section in the uncompressed xml file.
10:41:24 <rpg> fell: Thanks! That's a great tip. Sounds like I might be better off doing the more laborious but more likely to work method. I suppose waiting till the end of the calendar year (tax year) would be The Right Thing.
10:43:47 <fell> rpg: you are welcome.
10:44:47 <fell> vbatts: ?
10:45:46 <fell> YeOldHinnerk: Are you talking about the business features or something home grown?
11:03:24 <warlord> rpg: correct, there is no "mass delete" operation
11:03:33 <warlord> You could do File -> Export Accounts
11:03:59 <warlord> which would create a new file with an empty Chart of Accounts that mirrors your current set. Then you could manually set your opening balances.
11:04:36 <rpg> warlord: great. I wonder if this could become a FAQ?
11:04:42 <warlord> But honestly even in personal accounting there are reasons to keep some history, like stock purchases.
11:04:47 <warlord> rpg: What do you mean?
11:04:56 <warlord> File -> Export Accounts is in the docs.
11:05:32 <rpg> warlord: the "what do I do when my accounts database gets too big" question. It's the link between "what I want to do" and the export accounts command.
11:05:57 <warlord> How many transactions do you really have?
11:06:06 <warlord> I've got transactions going back 10 years..
11:09:00 <vbatts> vbatts: is there a more concise mapping of how the slots are used. like when mysql is the backend?
11:09:09 <vbatts> ... fell ^^
11:10:35 <fell> vbatts: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/SQL
11:12:54 <fell> ... http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/C_API
11:13:04 <vbatts> fell: right, so mostly just glueing things together. i didn't know if there was a further schema of how that mapping occurs to get data objects from slots
11:13:50 <vbatts> yea, and http://cloud.github.com/downloads/jralls/gnucash/gnucash_erd.png
11:14:12 <vbatts> i'll just keep working at this then
11:18:07 <rpg> warlord: I have stuff for about 10 years, and I'm noticing that Gnucash is getting very slow now.
11:18:22 <warlord> define "slow", and slow at doing what?
11:18:55 <warlord> vbatts: what exactly are you trying to do?
11:19:04 <warlord> (and why can't you use the GnuCash API to do it?)
11:21:03 <rpg> warlord: I have noticed this a lot when entering new transactions. Completion is very slow --- to the point where I will be pressing tab and then switching my attention to another window.
11:21:45 <warlord> How old is your computer?
11:22:08 <warlord> What OS? And how much RAM do you have?
11:25:23 <vbatts> warlord: writting ruby ActiveRecord bindings to the database
11:25:45 <warlord> vbatts: Don't you mean "Rails ActiveRecord bindings" ;)
11:26:00 <warlord> vbatts: More seriously, the schema isn't really well suited to AR.
11:26:16 <warlord> (specifically because of the 'slots' table, which is a recursive table)
11:26:27 <vbatts> warlord: kindof, but nope. first i'm going for a standalone activerecord access. i'll let a rails developer worry about rails
11:26:46 <vbatts> warlord: that's what i'm finding :-\
11:27:05 <warlord> Gnucash isn't a DB app.
11:27:13 <warlord> Gnucash uses the DB solely as a data store.
11:27:15 <warlord> It's not normalized
11:27:53 * vbatts nods
11:28:23 <warlord> I do think other people have attempted an AR binding, but I don't know if anyone has succeeded. Have you tried asking on the mailing list?
11:29:51 <rpg> warlord: 2010 vintage, Mac OS X, Mac Book Pro 2.66 GHz i7, 8 GB Ram
11:30:20 <vbatts> warlord: i have not hung on the ml for a while. https://github.com/vbatts/gnucash-rb is my latest hackings
11:30:31 <warlord> Hm, that should be plenty, provided you don't have 20 apps running.
11:30:37 <warlord> (which is easy to do on a Mac)
11:30:47 <warlord> vbatts: you should ask on the list.
11:31:11 <warlord> ISTR someone else trying to work on an AR binding
11:32:06 <vbatts> warlord: right on
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11:33:20 <vbatts> warlord: on -devel?
11:33:27 <warlord> I think so.
11:34:47 <vbatts> woah, https://lists.gnucash.org/search/ is wonky formated
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11:40:04 <warlord> yeah, the search is broken.
11:40:16 <warlord> known issue
11:40:29 <warlord> haven't been able to figure out how to fix it, especially since namazu is no longer supported in Fedora.
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11:42:45 <vbatts> ah
11:43:23 <vbatts> so, in my personal email archives of -devel, i don't see any speak of ruby scripting nor activerecord
11:43:44 <vbatts> i'll post, maybe others could use it
11:45:35 <warlord> It could've been mentioned on -user
11:46:20 <vbatts> hmm, i havne't been subscribed there
12:09:51 <YeOldHinnerk> @fell: Always homegrown stuff, I only use GnuCash for my personal (and family) checkings etc. - but the normal software like Starmoney, etc. just didn't give me the kind of control I need,
12:09:51 <gncbot> YeOldHinnerk: Error: "fell:" is not a valid command.
12:10:00 <YeOldHinnerk> fell: Always homegrown stuff, I only use GnuCash for my personal (and family) checkings etc. - but the normal software like Starmoney, etc. just didn't give me the kind of control I need,
12:12:43 <YeOldHinnerk> is there a way of deleting a budget? I have some "first trials" that I would like to get rid of to avoid confusion
12:14:15 <fell> YeOldHinnerk: I was wondering about "accounting for your employer"...
12:14:34 <fell> (I never used budgets)
12:20:01 <YeOldHinnerk> oh, I meant for my payroll.
12:20:22 <YeOldHinnerk> since from my gross salary there a several deductions.
12:20:28 <YeOldHinnerk> like pension plan
12:20:31 <YeOldHinnerk> tax
12:20:46 <YeOldHinnerk> cafeteria...
12:21:07 <warlord> GnuCash doesn't have payroll functionality.
12:21:18 <warlord> You can enter in payroll transactions, but gnucash wont compute it for you
12:21:32 <YeOldHinnerk> i think you misunderstand.
12:21:46 <YeOldHinnerk> it's not from the view of the employer
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12:21:52 <YeOldHinnerk> but from the emplyees view.
12:22:00 <YeOldHinnerk> to trace where my money went.
12:22:38 <YeOldHinnerk> and no computation is required either - tax caluclation in germany is close to rocket science :)
12:22:53 <warlord> Ah, from the employee side it's just a regular split transaction.
12:23:03 <YeOldHinnerk> exactly
12:23:04 <warlord> ... and you have all the fields in front of you, so it's easy.
12:23:12 <YeOldHinnerk> that's waht i was pointing at earlier
12:23:14 <warlord> I do that for my salary checks, too
12:23:34 <YeOldHinnerk> so you account for those as liabilites?
12:23:44 <YeOldHinnerk> or directly as costs?
12:24:12 <YeOldHinnerk> (for private matters, really a question of perspective :)
12:24:14 <warlord> I put them directly into expenses.
12:24:28 <warlord> or assets (for e.g. 401k or HSA deductions)
12:25:45 <YeOldHinnerk> btw it is not a simple split transaction, since in you checking account you only see net salary.
12:26:00 <YeOldHinnerk> so that was exactly where i started off earlier...
12:26:19 <warlord> I don't understand, what do you mean it's not a simple split transaction?
12:26:26 <warlord> Of course it is.
12:26:56 <YeOldHinnerk> well. From your online checking account you get a transaction for your net salary.
12:27:08 <warlord> You credit Income:Salary, and then Debit Assets:Checking and all your deduction accounts.
12:27:19 <warlord> You have to ignore online banking for any split txns
12:27:34 <YeOldHinnerk> yes, but i don't like that.
12:27:47 <warlord> It's the only way
12:27:48 <YeOldHinnerk> because all online transactions are true. the cash did flow.
12:28:04 <warlord> Use the online to "clear" the manually-created one.
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12:28:46 <YeOldHinnerk> right, so you need a liability account, so that, if all is well, that account will be back to zero once the money walks in.
12:29:22 <warlord> HUH???? What the HECK are you talking about?
12:29:54 <YeOldHinnerk> ok, let me be more explicit:
12:30:07 <YeOldHinnerk> you first create a split SX.
12:30:27 <YeOldHinnerk> on the active side: Demands against your employer.
12:30:32 <YeOldHinnerk> and on the liab side:
12:30:34 <YeOldHinnerk> tax
12:30:42 <YeOldHinnerk> social ins....
12:31:18 <YeOldHinnerk> then when the money is in your checkings account
12:31:41 <YeOldHinnerk> then you book not against income, but against demands from your employer
12:31:50 <YeOldHinnerk> (not sure if "Demands" is the proper word in english)
12:31:53 <warlord> Why would you do that?
12:32:07 <warlord> Doesn't your salary come at standard intervals?
12:32:16 <YeOldHinnerk> Because then I can see if what comes in is what was expected.
12:32:25 <YeOldHinnerk> yes it does, but the amount varies.
12:32:48 <warlord> Your salary varies month to month?!?
12:32:49 <warlord> Seriously?
12:32:54 <YeOldHinnerk> of course.
12:33:01 <warlord> Wierd!
12:33:07 <YeOldHinnerk> because it has items on it like my monthly cafeteria bill.
12:33:20 <YeOldHinnerk> plus bonus on occasion :)
12:33:47 <warlord> Ah.. I see.. Your GROSS salary doesn't change period to period (bonus excluded).
12:33:52 <YeOldHinnerk> right.
12:34:01 <warlord> Honestly, what I do is just wait until I see the pay slip and enter the transaction based on that.
12:34:14 <warlord> (or if I'm in a rush I login and look at the pay stub online)
12:34:32 <warlord> But then again, I don't use any bank-import systems.
12:35:13 <YeOldHinnerk> manual bookings are a pain.
12:35:20 <YeOldHinnerk> i want to keep them to a minimum.
12:35:36 <YeOldHinnerk> an unfortuneately, this minimum is not a very low one...
12:35:54 <YeOldHinnerk> since i have to add my cash and credit card expenses manually anyway.
12:36:09 <YeOldHinnerk> I wouldn't want it to grow more than needed.
12:46:14 <warlord> That's the wonders of autocomplete!
12:46:26 <warlord> It mostly fills it in for you; all you need to do are adjust the numbers that changed!
12:46:57 <warlord> Besides, if you're always just importing data from your bank, how would you ever notice if the bank makes a mistake?
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13:27:48 <fell> warlord: in http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/User_talk:Cstim cstim is asking, if we shouldn't block new-user-registration or new-page-creation for a few weeks to get rid of the spammers.
13:28:34 <fell> We got about 40 new users today despite the captchas.
13:30:40 <warlord> Is there a way to configure that ?
13:30:56 <warlord> (I wonder how they are getting past the CAPTCHAs?)
13:33:56 <fell> One way to come around captchas is searching people interested in striptease pictures/movies. For every solved captcha, one piece of cloth gets dropped.
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13:47:25 <YeOldHinnerk_> warlord: autofill is indeed great - but for the accounts it is currently almost unworkable, since it starts searching in the topmost accounts - there's a feature wish in uservoice to the end of changing this behavior. from my point of view that would be the biggest timesaver and help almost everyone.
13:47:39 <YeOldHinnerk_> it is a wonder not more people have voted for it yet.
13:48:36 <YeOldHinnerk_> fell, warlord: Watch out, don't delete my wiki account...
13:48:38 <warlord> What do you mean "starts searching in the topmost accounts"?
13:48:41 <YeOldHinnerk_> I signed up today.
13:48:59 <warlord> I think we're talking about different quickfill features.
13:49:06 <YeOldHinnerk_> possibly.
13:49:20 <warlord> I'm talking about the one where you enter in the description and gnucash fills in the rest of the transaction based on the previous one with the same desc.
13:49:48 <YeOldHinnerk_> most of my accounts start -tada - with the topmost account "Expenses"
13:50:02 <YeOldHinnerk_> yes, that is usefull too.
13:50:11 <YeOldHinnerk_> but for amazon, paypal etc. this doesn't help
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13:51:03 <YeOldHinnerk> good bye old friend...
14:09:53 <fell> YeOldHinnerk: No, we delete only spammer.
14:10:53 <fell> warlord: have to leave now. will search the option later today.
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14:12:58 <YeOldHinnerk> ok, time to go for me... thx to everyone
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14:14:42 <warlord> thanks fell
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