2012-02-16 GnuCash IRC logs

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00:04:02 <PlayIt> What up internet
00:05:37 <PlayIt> I just got everything configured for the most part with GNUcash.. I have my PayPal information imported via QIF file and Have my Bank of America account in from OFX direct update
00:08:04 <PlayIt> My savings account is funded directly from the checking account for the most part via 'Keep the Change' when I use the Checking account debit card.. How can I automatically or in as little work possible relate the 'keep the change' transfers from the checking account to the savings account?
00:09:17 <PlayIt> the problem is I plan on using the OFX update on both accounts and I don't know how to link them without breaking the online banking feature I have setup with both the accounts
00:11:00 <PlayIt> Is it possible to link these transactions in some kind of split without it messing things up? The only option I can think of is to not update the savings account with OFX and just make splits from the checking account transactions.. Just wondering if theres a better way..
00:11:38 <PlayIt> thanks
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14:13:34 * gour is uptodate with his personal finances in GC...time to celebrate :-)
14:16:20 <warlord> congrats
14:17:46 <gour> next step is to use (more) shortcuts, book business finances and then, finally, tweak invoice report
14:18:32 <gour> warlord: thank you for your encouragement to do it and not procrastinating...i feel great seeing my inbox-tray empty of receipts
14:19:02 <warlord> :)
14:19:05 <warlord> You are welcome gour
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14:27:15 <Jucor> Hi all.
14:28:14 <Jucor> New with gnucash, I'm at a loss: how would you deal with a "joint account"? My girlfriend and I have a common checking account where we put equal money and from which we pay the rent and groceries.
14:28:44 <Jucor> Some mailing lists suggest to use a separate gnucash file for the shared account, but gnucash's doc says that most users should be fine with only one file -- and that if you're not, better call an accountant.
14:29:16 <Jucor> Since I doubt being the only one sharing an account, I'm opening to the GGCC (Great GnuCash Community) for help :) Thanks for any hint!
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14:30:32 <warlord> Jucor: ...okay, i wont answer
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14:31:39 <Jucor> Aaand... I'm back! (knowing a bit more about the \quit command...)
14:32:03 <warlord> Heh
14:32:21 <warlord> It depends on whether the expenses are tax-affecting..
14:32:31 <warlord> and whether you are filing joint or separate taxes.
14:32:53 <Jucor> I' m in the UK, taxes are taken directly from the source, so we're not bothering with using gnucash for taxes purposes.
14:33:19 <Jucor> (and those shared expenses do not make right for any tax deduction, unfortunately)
14:33:52 <Jucor> I'm really looking for super-simple use of GnuCash: seeing what amount of money goes to which category. Easy to do, except for this joint account.
14:33:54 <warlord> In my case, the joint acct is with my wife, so we file jointly.. The way I handle it is by recording all my income and all my expenses directly, and then any time she puts money in or takes money out I just transfer to Expenses:Wife
14:34:11 <Jucor> Mmm, I see. Thanks for the tip.
14:35:11 <Jucor> Unfortunately, not married yet, and since we're both contributing equally, ideally, I'd like to automatically split all the expenses: 50% of it would go into my usual Expenses:* account, and 50% of it, say, in a generic "Expenses:ShareOfWife" or a /dev/null of some kind.
14:35:28 <Jucor> So that I can really factor my half of those shared expenses into my own expenses-analysis.
14:36:02 <warlord> There is no way to split it 50%.
14:36:09 <warlord> (at least not automatically)
14:36:18 <Jucor> Thanks. That's what I was afraid of.
14:36:21 <warlord> you could do it manually.
14:36:30 <Jucor> For each expense, you mean ?
14:36:38 <warlord> Yes..
14:37:19 <warlord> But that might be a lot of work.. Technically it is the right thing to do. If your rent is £500, then technically only £250 is your expense.
14:37:29 <Jucor> Indeed.
14:37:54 <Jucor> But beyond being indeed repetitive, it leaves the problem of counting her contributions to the common account as "not from me" but "not my income either"
14:38:47 <warlord> Right.
14:39:12 <warlord> Perhaps the best way to handle it would be Assets:Girlfriend
14:39:20 <Jucor> I'm surprised that there's no plugin of the kind -- for gnucash or any other software: I doubt I'm the only guy with a joint account :)
14:40:02 <warlord> I find it very surprising to have a joint account that isn't tied to a specific thing, like a "house account"
14:41:10 <Jucor> Well, young couple, small salaries: no mortgage (can't afford it), no big buy, so just an account to make it easy to share the rent and the grocery money.
14:41:25 <Jucor> Or do I misunderstand what you mean by "joint account tied to a specific thing" ?
14:42:28 <Jucor> (additionally, european, so no such things as credit cards, only debit cards -- so it's really a super-simple setup)
14:42:37 <warlord> Think about it this way: How would you record your rent if you didn't have a shared account?
14:42:49 <Jucor> Expenses:Rent
14:43:13 <Jucor> and then each other expense would go individually to expenses:groceries, expenses:dining, etc.
14:43:14 <warlord> That's not my question -- how would you setup your transaction if you and your GF had to jointly pay rent?
14:43:29 <warlord> (without a joint account)
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14:44:15 <Jucor> Mmm... Good question, actually.
14:44:44 <Jucor> Probably would take her deposit of half the rent as a deposit in expenses:rent
14:45:17 <Jucor> sorry, I mean a withdrawal from expenses:rent
14:45:29 <Jucor> and then count the whole rent from my account as a deposito to expenses:rent.
14:45:40 <Jucor> Mmm... not sure that makes sense.
14:47:12 <Jucor> On second thought: it does make sense. Her deposit of Rent/2 to my account as a Withdrawal from Expenses:Rent
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14:47:52 <Jucor> then a withdrawal of Rent from my account to Expenses:Rent.
14:48:33 <Jucor> Yes, I think that's what I would do if she were paying me half the rent and I were then making the check for the whole rent.
14:48:41 <warlord> So you would implement it as £FullRent Bank -> E:R and a second £HalfRent E:R -> Bank ?
14:48:49 <Jucor> Yes.
14:49:15 <Jucor> (but I'm not yet familiar enough with GnuCash, so if that's silly I'm all for hearing it :) )
14:49:35 <warlord> It's not completely silly...
14:50:16 <warlord> So here's another question -- are you attempting to keep track of the true account balance in the joint account? And are you trying to keep track of her expenses from the account?
14:50:42 <Jucor> Yes to the first.
14:50:57 <Jucor> No to the second: only trying to keep track of my half of all expenses from the account.
14:51:34 <warlord> Okay. So.. one approach you could take is just have a "Liabilities:Gilfriend" which would be the source and sink of all her deposits and withdrawals. So, when she deposits money into the account it would be recorded as a txn from L:GF -> Bank
14:51:45 <Jucor> (the aim being to see how much I'm spending per month on what -- i.e. seeing where I waste)
14:51:54 <warlord> then when you pay the rent it would be a split txn between Bank, Ex:Rent, and L:GF
14:52:29 <warlord> Similarly with groceries: Bank -> { Ex:Groceries ; L:GF }
14:52:45 <Jucor> Thanks! That looks like what I'm looking for indeed :)
14:52:53 <warlord> Then L:GF would always maintain your GF's "Balance" of the account.
14:54:05 <Jucor> (sorry to use your RSA-forged brain from such stupid accounting questions ;) )
14:54:24 <Jucor> I'm not yet familiar enough with the concept of Liabilities account (except from GnuCash manual, "libailities = thinks you owe")
14:54:59 <warlord> LOL
14:57:24 <Jucor> But indeed, that seems just perfect for what I need, since it has this extra feature of counting her balance of the account.
14:57:41 <Jucor> The side effect is: it biases my Assets total.
14:58:35 <Jucor> (if I'm not completely off the track regarding liability in accounting)
14:58:51 <Jucor> I'll keep wrapping my head around that and do more reading on liability, before bothering you further.
14:59:00 <Jucor> Thanks a lot Warlord!
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15:03:10 <Jucor> Keeping thinking: since L:GF is *substracted* from Assets, and since the common account is *added* to Assets, it's a null operation for my Assets total. That's the perfect way to do it indeed!!
15:05:27 <Jucor> So the only drawback is the one we mentioned earlier: having to manually split each expense. But that's a minor inconvenient compared to the bonus of not having to deal with 2 separate files.
15:05:51 <warlord> :)
15:05:58 <Jucor> Thank you very much!
15:06:31 <warlord> you are welcome.
15:06:39 <warlord> Oh, and why the mention of RSA?
15:07:08 <Jucor> just based on your whois and your impressive webpage :)
15:07:17 <warlord> Ah
15:07:31 <Jucor> (sorry, bad habit of googling every people I interact with -- professional deformation, being in academia myself!)
15:07:51 <warlord> lol
15:07:52 <Jucor> and the contract between explaining "Accounting 101" and breaking RSA made me smile.
15:07:59 <Jucor> -contract +contrast
15:08:16 <warlord> hahahah
15:08:28 <warlord> "The loser is the one who has to explain higher math to the press"
15:08:35 <Jucor> Hahahaha
15:09:26 <warlord> The number of time I had to explain that "no, RSA was not broken -- we just broke one RSA Key"...
15:09:49 <Jucor> "Well, can't you do it again for any key ??" huhu
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15:10:53 <gour> Jucor: induction?
15:10:58 * Jucor starts reading NY Times 1994, seeing how warlord made a good job of explaining it.
15:11:11 <Jucor> beg you pardon gour?
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15:13:19 <gour> Jucor: prove breaking of keys by using induction...it was done for n=1, now prove for n+1 and that's it ;)
15:13:40 <Jucor> Hahahahaha
15:15:32 <warlord> Well, give me 5000 MIPS-years and I can go break another 129-digit RSA key using 1994 technology.
15:15:42 <warlord> .. i probably still have the code lying around.
15:15:43 <Jucor> I was wondering, warlord, if RSA129 were to be re-factored from scratch now (with GPUs, for example), how long it would take, compared to the so many volunteers at the time
15:16:44 <warlord> it would still have 5000 MIPS-years using the 1994 algorithms. It's just that we could easily get 5000 MIPS-years in a much shorter period of time.
15:17:22 <Jucor> Yes, thanks, the 5000 MIPS-years was what I was missing.
15:17:57 <warlord> Using the same number of machines we did then (1600), but using today's technologies.. we'd probably have had our answer in a week or two.
15:18:02 <Jucor> Crazy to think that any Xbox 360 has 19,200 MIPS.
15:18:29 <warlord> Actually, probably less that that -- probably only a day..
15:18:45 <Jucor> well, say 1600 xboxes
15:18:49 <Jucor> 24*365*5000/(1600*19200) = 1.42 hours
15:18:59 <Jucor> sweet,
15:19:29 <warlord> well, that's just to collect all the relations.. Then you need to do the matrix reduction. I dont know about that part.
15:19:34 <warlord> That was Arjen.
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15:19:48 <Jucor> Can this part be parallelized easily, too ?
15:20:43 *** benoitg has quit IRC
15:20:59 <Jucor> Sorry, I'd probably not have the number theory background to easily understand it anyway -- I'm in stats/applied proba.
15:23:23 <warlord> Nope.
15:23:40 <warlord> But that took a much shorter period of time than computing all the relations
15:24:13 <Jucor> But quite an amount of disk-space, for that time, from what I read in http://web.mit.edu/warlord/www/rsa129.ps
15:25:08 <warlord> yes.
15:25:08 <Jucor> That's a beautiful story to read :)
15:25:16 <warlord> nowadays I could probably do it on my laptop ;)
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15:25:58 <warlord> or, worst case, my server downstairs with 16G ram and 4TB disk. (although it only has about 800GB free right now)
15:26:10 <Jucor> [and beautiful choice of the paper's title =D ]
15:26:42 <warlord> thanks. I dont remember who came up with the title.
15:27:02 <warlord> (Technically I think Ron did)
15:27:10 <Jucor> (Well, that's the hd drive to pay for hosting a backup of library.nu/ifile.it -- please, tell me someone backed it up :'( )
15:27:19 <Jucor> Technically true.
15:28:01 <Jucor> It reminds me of this urban legend (I'd have to check it) of the shortest math talk in a conference, where the speaker allegedly just went to the chalk board,
15:28:12 <Jucor> wrote the two prime factors and their product,
15:28:14 <Jucor> and left the stage.
15:28:51 <Jucor> I couldn't find back the source, since this was word-of-mouth coffee-machine chatter where I was a grad student, obviously.
15:29:14 <Jucor> That could be done with your article, though -- but would miss on all the interesting details!
15:30:31 <Jucor> Ha, google is my friend: http://web.plattsburgh.edu/academics/mathematics/vitalsines/sixtwo.php
15:30:46 <Jucor> At the October 1903 meeting of the American Mathematical Society, the mathematician Frank Nelson Cole had a paper on the program with the somewhat unassuming title "On the Factorization of Large Numbers." When called upon to speak, Cole walked to a chalk board and, saying nothing, proceeded to raise the integer 2 to the 67th power; then he carefully subtracted 1 from the resulting number and let the figure [M67 ] stand. Wit
15:30:46 <Jucor> hout a word he moved to clean part of the board and multiplied, longhand, the product 193,707,721x761,838,257,287.
15:32:55 <Jucor> Brhm, sorry for straying off-topic.
15:33:18 <Jucor> Thanks again warlord for your help with GnuCash -- and for this great story of RSA129 :)
15:33:57 <warlord> You're welcome. Have a great day.
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17:09:55 <Jucor> Woot woot, made my first reconciliation, and sorted out how to put the difference in Equity:Opening balance -- since it's the first commit and I am using the OFX files downloaded from my bank.
17:10:39 <Jucor> [agreed: that's assuming that there are no errors between said opening balance and today, date of my first reconciliation -- but that's an assumption I can live with]
17:12:31 <warlord> heh
17:12:32 <warlord> ok
17:12:59 <Jucor> Or is it really wrong to do it this way?
17:13:07 <warlord> no
17:13:10 <Jucor> Pfew.
17:14:06 <warlord> personally, I dont use imports
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17:23:40 <Jucor> You do it manually ?
17:24:08 <Jucor> I can see the point: at least you go line by line for each expense.
17:24:37 <Jucor> On the other end, with the import of the last 2 months, I can get a quick head-start on analysing my expenses.
17:25:16 <Jucor> -end +hand
17:25:22 <warlord> I enter my transactions when they happen.
17:25:44 <warlord> So every (couple of) day(s) I enter in my handful of transactions.
17:26:12 <Jucor> Which I may do for the new ones -- if I can remember to keep the receipts and do it every evening.
17:26:34 <Jucor> I'm terrible with receipts and keeping them. But playing with GnuCash might be just the incentive for me to keep them.
17:26:50 <Jucor> How do you remember the cash transactions ? Keeping the receipts, too ?
17:27:14 <Jucor> [I confess that my bank's website has become a substitute for my memory -- that ain't brilliant]
17:35:42 <warlord> i tend not to have too many cash txns, but yes, I still keep the receipts. Not many I dont get receipts for.
17:37:17 <warlord> I just periodically balance out my cash.
17:38:06 <warlord> if it;s off I just make a txn to ex:misc
17:44:26 <Jucor> Just what I did for ... well, the totality of what landed in the wallet out of the checkings account.
17:45:01 <Jucor> I'm entering the joint account now, and I'm realizing that the import is a pain in the butt: I don't seem to be able to enter a split attribution in the Import window.
17:45:10 <Jucor> Will have to split them manually by editing after having imported.
17:45:26 <warlord> correct.
17:51:26 <Jucor> Well, at least, thanks to the smart interface in the ledger, that's quite quickly done !
17:51:55 <Jucor> Select the transaction, just add "/2" at the end of the expense part,
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17:52:31 <Jucor> and Magic, a new line "imbalance" appears in the ledger, just have to type "L:G" and mircale,it's done. Well thought of, devs, thanks!
17:54:15 <warlord> :)
17:55:06 <Jucor> Seriously, 5 keystrokes (9 if I count TAB) to split and add a new category, I'm leaving the dream.
17:55:28 <Jucor> Compared to the brief and frustrating experience I had with Quicken 3 years ago, that's a massive change!
17:56:59 <Jucor> Fun fact: default accounts do not include "Expenses:Rent"
17:57:38 <warlord> interesting.
17:58:12 <Jucor> Aahhhh, and the beauty of the auto-match when I import withdrawals from an account to an account whose transactions I already have imported !!!
17:58:36 <Jucor> Quicken wasn't able to do it, it completely messed up my initial setup, I remember swearing like a pig at it.
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18:13:08 <warlord> LOL
18:17:20 <Jucor> Mmm... computing the Opening Balance for the artificial L:GF is not trivial
18:18:08 <warlord> True...
18:18:30 <Jucor> Or wouldn't it just be (A:Joint Account's Original Balance)/2 ?
18:18:49 <Jucor> (assuming we start from a position where both her and I had equivalently contributed to the joint account)
18:19:26 <warlord> Probably.
18:19:32 <warlord> That's between you two ;)
18:19:40 <Jucor> hahaha
18:19:48 <Jucor> It's actually the case. So that makes it pretty simple.
18:24:41 <warlord> yep
18:24:44 <warlord> lukcy you
18:24:47 <warlord> lucky even
18:25:12 <Jucor> (turns out that in the meantime, I discovered it wasn't, but have tracked down the difference and sorted it out)
18:25:59 <Jucor> So now, the following of the algorithm is satisfied: L:GF = (Joint Account)/2
18:26:05 <Jucor> meaning everything is properly balanced.
18:26:08 <Jucor> Yay :)000
18:27:12 <warlord> cool
18:55:58 <Jucor> At last, I can have what I turned to GnuCash for: a precise breakdown of all my expenses.
18:56:11 <Jucor> That's the first to being a billionaire, I'm pretty sure.
18:56:21 <Jucor> Thanks again warlord and all the devs.
18:56:34 <warlord> you are welcome
18:58:01 <Jucor> midnight here, time to pretend sleeping while reading cheap Sci-Fi (Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet -- you might enjoy it given your B5 and DS9 inclination -- albeit the military aspect reminds me more of Battlestar Galactica 2004)
18:58:24 <Jucor> (with the obvious difference that it's a book, not a series, granted)
18:59:06 <Jucor> (the space manoeuvres are reminding of those in Orson Scott Card's Ender)
18:59:15 <Jucor> Anyway, over and out from London! Thanks again :)
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23:11:15 <Snoop> Good Evening
23:21:18 <Snoop> I have used a search engine to attempt to find the answers here but I'm either overlooking something or not finding the answer.
23:21:47 <Snoop> 1. I am trying to find a clean way of monitoring my paychecks and withholdings with a single split transaction.
23:21:49 <Snoop> I have the following example folder setup to split my paychecks
23:21:51 <Snoop> Assets
23:21:52 <Snoop> +Account A
23:21:54 <Snoop> +Account B
23:21:56 <Snoop> +SS Tax
23:21:58 <Snoop> +Card A
23:22:00 <Snoop> Expenses
23:22:02 <Snoop> +Medical
23:22:04 <Snoop> +Income Tax
23:22:06 <Snoop> Income
23:22:08 <Snoop> +Paychecks Bi-Weekly
23:22:10 <Snoop> Liabilities
23:22:12 <Snoop> +Card A
23:22:14 <Snoop> I tried going into Income:Paychecks Bi-Weekly and creating a transaction that has income of 100. i begin the split charging to Expenses:Income Tax, fine, However it charges Assests:Account A instead of depositing to it. When I try to put the number into the deposit field with the bank it deposits to the bank but creates an imbalance in the transaction for that amount. why? how do i fix this?
23:22:16 <Snoop> 2. one of my withholdings is for a section 25 flex spending account. i dont think i am doing this the best way either.
23:22:18 <Snoop> Right now I have it broken down into 2 separate transactions.
23:22:20 <Snoop> Transaction 1 Is sourced from my paycheck above, to pay off the Liabilities:Card A to equal zero at the end of the year, canceling out the liability.
23:22:22 <Snoop> Transaction 2 will be my purchases entered into Assets:Card charged to Expenses:Medical until its 0.
23:25:02 <warlord> Snoop: try entering the transaction from the bank side instead of the income side.. your head will hurt less.
23:25:27 <warlord> in addition, your SS Tax should be an Expense, not an Asset.
23:25:33 <warlord> (your FSA should be an asset)
23:27:08 <Snoop> ok ill give that a shot in a second. with the ss, i was looking at it as in long term i get it back if i live that long, although i suppose i could just categorize it as a refund from the expenses later.
23:30:35 <warlord> i wouldn't treat SS as an asset. There's no knowing how much you will get back.
23:30:52 <warlord> Also, the SS income gets taxed, so might as well just treat it as income down the road.
23:31:57 <Snoop> so enter the entire transaction in the bank account? i actually have 2 bank accounts. i have 10 into 1 account, then the remainder into the 2nd.
23:32:32 <warlord> that's fine. But enter it from one of them.
23:32:58 <warlord> trust me, it'll be easier. and once you get it in once you can just use autofill for future txns.
23:33:04 <warlord> Read the docs about entering a split txn.
23:34:17 <Snoop> thanks
23:34:19 <warlord> IMHO, enter the total into the current account and specify Income:Salary, then click the split button and continue. It will put stuff into the correct column and then then you can work from there. Note that in some cases the heading might not make sense, e.g. a "Deposit" into Expenses:Taxes
23:36:31 <warlord> anyways, gotta run. i'll be back in the morning.
23:36:40 <Snoop> thanks a bunch!
23:36:44 <warlord> good luck!
23:36:47 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
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