2012-02-09 GnuCash IRC logs

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04:38:49 <Ecke> Hi, could someone help me to make my diagnose of my accounts in libreoffice base?
04:39:31 <Ecke> I have the accounts in an postgresql db and I dont know where the date in the tables is localised
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06:52:19 <blathijs> Hmm, I wonder if there is any way to reset the "amount due" for a vendor in the business module
06:53:19 <blathijs> I tried to do a negative payment, but it seems that didn't work, so now (after some unposting, reposting, deleting payments and re-entering them) the amount due for the vendor is out of sync with the sum of the bills and payments :-S
06:58:56 <blathijs> Hmm, but I can't even find this "amount due" in the XML :-S
07:04:14 <blathijs> Ah, there was an "Automatic payment forward" lingering in my A/P account
07:06:14 <blathijs> Removing that fixes things again
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07:43:00 <mikee> gour / warlord: Thanks. I did.
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08:02:08 <gour> mikee: ;)
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08:11:18 <Joeboy> Anybody know about the situation wrt writing reports in python? I understand it was a SoC project last year.
08:11:52 <Joeboy> Looking at the scheme report code makes me feel confused, scared and inadequate
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08:23:05 <Joeboy> Does the windows installer include python support?
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08:59:38 <Joeboy> Ok google is giving me the impression python reporting is not really there
09:00:22 <gour> yeah
09:00:57 <gour> hopefully python-reporting will arrive in GC eventually...
09:02:07 <Joeboy> It seems like it's currently in a liminal state that's sufficient to deter me from learning scheme, but doesn't really allow me to write reports
09:02:41 <Joeboy> I should probably just man up and learn scheme
09:03:40 <Joeboy> then I could look down on imperative programmers
09:08:50 <gour> heh...i like FP, but leaning scheme just for GC...
09:09:49 <Joeboy> Well afaik it is still the official Gnu scripting language
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09:20:30 <gour> it is, but where it is used?
09:21:25 <Joeboy> approximately nowhere, as far as I can tell
09:21:57 <Joeboy> my gimp install seems to come with a bunch of .scms
09:27:58 <gour> guile simply did not make it as 'glue' language...today lua might be better or python
09:29:36 <Joeboy> I am in no way trying to promote guile. Python would be perfect, although only because I already speak it.
09:30:56 <gour> i agree
09:31:09 <Joeboy> I get the impression from reading the mailing list that python reporting isn't seen as a particularly valuable feature
09:31:37 <Joeboy> which I fairly strongly disagree with, but maybe I'm focussing excessively on my own needs
09:31:43 <gour> manpower-shortage to replace guild with python
09:32:20 <Joeboy> But, I'm reading mailing list posts where people seem to be deterring people from implementing it
09:32:32 <Joeboy> on the grounds "users" won't see the difference
09:33:15 <Joeboy> I think a 100x increase in the number of people that can write reports would make quite a big difference to users
09:33:34 * gour nods
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10:01:47 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
10:03:02 <warlord> blathijs: you might have to unpost the payments and then clear out any "auto-payment-forward" transactions in your A/P account
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10:03:21 <elnino> good morning all!
10:05:04 <elnino> quick question. last time I was here, I was given the impression that gnucash can retrieve daily updates from financial institutions. rather than just uploading files. is that correct??
10:05:21 <warlord> Joeboy: IMHO a swap of guile -> python would be a LOT of work, and the results would NOT be user visible. We have a dearth of manpower to make user visible feature changes.
10:05:51 <warlord> elnino: You can pull OFX and HBCI from banks, if you have the correct configuration parameters.
10:06:15 <elnino> and where would I get that information, from the banks?
10:06:16 <Joeboy> warlord: I appreciate the work, but people who seem prepared to do it seem to be being actively discouraged.
10:07:21 <Joeboy> and, I would argue that the results would be useful to a significant proportion of users (including me)
10:07:21 <elnino> or is it a matter of providing username/password/account number for each institution?
10:07:22 <warlord> elnino: well, where are you?
10:07:27 <elnino> minnesota
10:08:08 <warlord> elnino: okay, so USA -- which would mean OFX. Go to the Wiki and read the "How to setup OFX in GnuCash 2" page. You can also try to lookup your bank at ofxhome.com
10:08:28 <warlord> in addition to user/pw/bank# you also need to know the Bank OFX URL.
10:09:43 <warlord> Joeboy: Personally the only discouragement I have given on the list is explaining that it *is* a ton of work. If one were to rip out guile completely (which honestly cannot be done because more than just reports are in scheme)... one would have to replace all the reports too. A lot of work.
10:09:49 <elnino> cool. thanks! warlord.
10:10:36 <elnino> another more involved question... I did look at the wiki, hoping for information on how to setup qnucash for the "envelope system" is this a pretty standard/typical usage for gnucash?
10:10:49 <Joeboy> warlord: I don't see any need to rip out scheme, certainly not initially anyway
10:10:59 <warlord> bucket budgeting? I'm sure many people use it
10:11:11 <warlord> Joeboy: are you offering to work on it?
10:11:17 <Joeboy> warlord: Nope
10:11:38 <warlord> well, then, I suggest you step back then!
10:11:53 <Joeboy> warlord: Well, actually if there was some kind of roadmap then maybe
10:12:44 <warlord> what do you mean? If you're offering to write the feature then go ahead and do it. Why do you need to see it on a roadmap? Right now none of the current active devs consider it a high priority. If you do, then do it and the active devs will gladly commit your code.
10:14:43 <Joeboy> warlord: I'm not suggesting that the active devs should drop everything and implement it. Just that it should be considered as a valuable feature.
10:15:08 <Joeboy> when other people *do* suggest a willingness to work on it
10:15:47 <warlord> Can you point me to where someone was told "no, don't work on it" explicitly?
10:16:05 <warlord> (as opposed to "it's a LOT of work, be careful if you want to implement it")
10:16:26 <Joeboy> No, but I can point to multiple places where people were told it probably wasn't worth it
10:16:32 <Joeboy> which isn't exactly encouraging
10:17:10 <Joeboy> This conversation is fairly unlikely to be productive at this point
10:17:53 <Joeboy> Actually I can point to somewhere where somebody was told "Do not include python code in the project"
10:18:19 <Joeboy> which is again, not exactly encouraging
10:19:01 <warlord> Well, that horse has already left the barn.. there is python code in the project.
10:19:07 <Joeboy> Indeed
10:19:42 <elnino> warlord, envelope = bucket same thing
10:19:43 <Joeboy> but, from my outsiders perspective, it looks like there's a sentiment at least bordering on hostility abroad
10:19:59 <warlord> elnino: I believe so, yet.
10:20:31 <warlord> Joeboy: Personally I dont like python. I never did. I think it's a horrible language, and I havent drunk the cool-aid.
10:20:51 <Joeboy> warlord: Well, I stand corrected then
10:21:37 <warlord> But in all this conversation have I ever said "don't do it"?
10:22:02 <Joeboy> warlord: I'm not accusing you specifically of anything. I don't know who you are on the mailing list.
10:22:21 <warlord> I'm 'warlord' on the mailing list, too ;)
10:22:45 <Joeboy> warlord: I don't specifically recall any of your posts there
10:22:56 <warlord> fair enough.
10:23:23 <warlord> The point remains that if you're willing to do the work then I think you would be encouraged to do so. But it is a lot of work.
10:24:06 <warlord> ... and honestly I don't think moving to python would help. It would only shift the capability from one set of devs (who know scheme) to another set of devs (who know python) -- and it's unclear what overlap there is.
10:24:24 <Joeboy> warlord: I believe (I may have this wrong) the only SoC project rejected was python reporting, or something like it
10:25:02 <warlord> Ahh, well that's different. I honestly do NOT believe that it's a good GSoC project, because I don't think it can be done in a summer.
10:25:10 <warlord> I think it is MUCH bigger than that.
10:25:29 <Joeboy> warlord: I like python, but appreciate it has its warts. I'm not especially wedded to it, but I do think scheme is a paricularly inaccessible choice
10:26:00 <warlord> Well, that choice was made over 10 years ago, before any of the current devs became devs.
10:26:13 <warlord> (actually, over 15 years ago at this point)
10:26:21 <Joeboy> Do you really think the number of scheme devs is at all comparable to the number of python devs?
10:26:42 <Joeboy> Maybe I just hang out in python centric places, but I'd expect the latter to massively outnumber the former
10:27:14 <Joeboy> warlord: sure, I'm sure it made sense then, all I'm trying to argue is that switching to something more accessible would have significant benefits
10:27:28 <Joeboy> in 2012
10:27:34 <Joeboy> (or thereabouts)
10:28:11 <Joeboy> I may be naive about the amount of work involved though
10:28:20 <warlord> Joeboy: if anyone were writing from scratch today you are absolutely right that scheme is the wrong thing to use. BUT... we have it now, we have a lot of infrastructure around it..
10:28:52 <warlord> I'm trying to wrap my brain around having two different reporting languages side-by-side..
10:29:12 <Joeboy> warlord: I have read things that suggest there's a general move away from scheme
10:29:16 <Joeboy> in the codebase
10:29:18 <warlord> honestly, maybe we should look at using Ruby.. and just use html.erb?
10:29:49 <Joeboy> Well, ruby is the other dynamically typed scripting language so I obviously regard it as heretical
10:30:17 <Joeboy> but really choice of language is a fairly bikesheddy discussion
10:30:34 <Joeboy> lua, python, ruby, javascript, whatever
10:30:37 <warlord> yes, there is a move to take some of the features written in scheme and rewrite them in C (for most things). From personal experience, scheme can write features in many MANY fewer lines of code than C! (I tried rewriting the QIF importer in C at one point and stopped after I had about 5x the amount of code.
10:32:01 <Joeboy> Perhaps oddly I don't really mind what the codebase is in, mostly
10:32:13 <Joeboy> I'd just like to be able to write a report
10:32:28 <warlord> the take the 24 hours to learn scheme syntax.
10:32:32 <Joeboy> and suspect a good number of people find scheme as martian as I do
10:32:53 <Joeboy> it is tempting to do as you say
10:33:04 <Joeboy> I probably should, really
10:33:54 <warlord> seriously, any programmer can learn scheme syntax in a day.. and learn the basic structures and flows in a week.
10:35:25 <Joeboy> What's the status of eguile?
10:35:31 <Joeboy> Is it the future?
10:36:00 <warlord> I don't know.
10:36:09 <Joeboy> fair enough
10:36:18 <warlord> It's there now, but people seem not to be that interested. We have a couple reports in eguile.
10:38:32 <gour> i wonder how would the marriage between lua & GC look like? lua seems to play nicely with C
10:39:44 <mikee> I'd say that getting a formatted layout is easier with eguile
10:39:48 <mikee> my 2c
10:41:10 <gour> that might be...i consider, as Joeboy, that lua might be easier to approach to than scheme for many GC users...
10:41:52 <gour> it may be also easier to plumb lua instead of guile..maybe
10:45:17 <warlord> guile is already plumbed. so anything is going to be harder than the status quo.
10:47:25 <warlord> I wonder, tho, if we could make e-guile more like Rails.. with the ability to create partial templates and layouts.
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10:48:26 * gour i not familiar with RoR
10:49:07 <warlord> I find RoR fascinating.. and I am enjoying working on it IRL
10:49:31 * Joeboy favours template language agnosticism
10:50:43 <warlord> Joeboy: you can't be agnostic -- you have to choose something in order to implement it.
10:50:50 <warlord> ... or you have to create your own language.
10:51:44 <Joeboy> warlord: I probably misunderstand, but it seems to me that a report script just returns a bunch of text/html. Personally, I think how it does that should be up to the script.
10:51:56 <Joeboy> (but, let's face it, I don't really know what I'm talking about here)
10:53:02 <warlord> Joeboy: That is not at all what I'm talking about here -- I'm talking about templating, like e-guile, or RoR, where you have html with embedded language to generate your output. Most people want to just make their foo-report "look good", so being able to hack on HTML and CSS is all they need.
10:53:10 <warlord> s/need/want
10:54:50 <warlord> If we're just talking about code that outputs HTML, then sure, the language doesn't matter all that much, but then that's no better for the end user who wants to be able to tweak the markup.
10:57:40 <warlord> Honestly, I don't see that many people wanting to write "new" reports. Most of the requests I see are people who want to tweak existing reports.
10:57:43 <Joeboy> warlord: I think what you are descibing is the PHP style of templating, which I personally find brings up traumatic memories
10:58:05 <Joeboy> But maybe it's fine for GC's purposes
10:58:23 <warlord> Yes, PHP, E-Guile, RoR -- all are similarly.
10:58:26 <warlord> similar
10:59:48 <Joeboy> Does Rails not support more than one templating engine?
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11:00:56 <Joeboy> Looks like it doesn't
11:02:34 <warlord> What do you mean by "more than one templating engine"?
11:03:50 <Joeboy> warlord: Well, in eg. django, you write code that returns a response. Django comes with its own template language, but basically how you generate the response is up to you.
11:04:16 <Joeboy> So you can use whatever template engine you want, or no template engine
11:07:07 <Joeboy> I guess ERB is "the" Ruby template engine
11:14:43 <warlord> Actually, I believe it supports multiple engines, but ERB is what 99% uses. There are (at least) two others.
11:15:57 <linas_> hey, there isn't some server component to gnucash, is there?
11:16:14 <gour> not matter what will happen with GC's reporting engine, we'll put endeavour into learning as much is needed to tweak our invoices...more is probably not needed
11:17:21 <warlord> linas_: no, there is not.
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11:17:53 <linas_> hmm. OK, there is some cloud-computing company that wants to install gnucash on the cloud...
11:18:05 <linas_> and I keep telling him that's not how it works ..
11:18:24 <warlord> It's not how it works ;)
11:18:30 <warlord> It's a Gtk Desktop App
11:18:39 <warlord> BIAB
11:19:02 <linas_> I dunnno, I thought maybe it grew some server-side multi-user backend or something while I wasn't looking
11:20:01 <Joeboy> Actually there is that new gtk thing that lets you access gtk apps via html5, or something
11:20:36 <Joeboy> http://digitizor.com/2011/03/17/gtk-html5-browser/
11:20:46 <Joeboy> Install it on a vds, job done :-)
11:20:57 <linas_> looking ...
11:21:24 <Joeboy> linas_: That last line wasn't entirely serious
11:21:44 <linas_> :-)
11:21:45 <Joeboy> I think it's pretty bleeding edge
11:23:23 <linas_> well, all the google hits for "gtk broadway" are from march/april 2011, so it feels like development stopped then, and never restarted ...
11:25:21 <Joeboy> VNC then :-)
11:25:23 <linas_> they video is impressive ...
11:30:33 <warlord> Gotta run.. Back in about 45 minutes.
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