2012-01-11 GnuCash IRC logs

00:23:27 <kevlar69> wow. quiet in here.
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12:08:33 <warlord> good morning everyone. mikee, could you op gncbot, please?
12:16:32 <warlord> (and to answer your email -- it was Comcast having a network routing outage, taking out all of Atlanta's business class network)
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12:17:43 <mikee> @op warlord
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12:18:30 <mikee> Good afternoon, warlord.
12:23:20 <mikee> Can I go out for a beer now?
12:24:44 <warlord> LOL. Yes. Thank you, Mike
12:25:01 <warlord> (I thought you already went for one -- it's a bit too early here in SF for a beer; It's only 9.30)
12:28:27 <warlord> @op linas_
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14:11:52 <ensonic> hi, does gnucash has extra reports which one can install? I am looking for comparision reports (like compare to last month or last year)
14:14:45 <warlord> ensonic: All reports that have been written and donated are part of the distribution. so no, there are no "additional reports" you can download and install. At least none that I know of.
14:15:12 <warlord> Some individual users may have written their own reports, but they've never sent those back or they would've been included.
14:15:16 <ensonic> warlord, btw. suse is preparing a guile1.8 that can be installed in parallel
14:15:30 <warlord> ok
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14:56:39 <Stefan> Guten Abend. Ich bin neu hier.
14:57:53 <Stefan> Ich arbeite seit einem dreiviertel Jahr begeistert mit Gnucash 2.4.8 (PortableApps entweder auf Win7/64 bit de oder WinXP/32 bit de)
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15:05:30 <Stefan> Am 24.12.2011 habe ich die letzten Buchungen erfasst. Als ich am 01.01.2012 die ersten Abschlussbuchungen erfassen wollte, wurde beim Öffnen der Applikation die folgende Fehlermeldung angezeigt:" There was an error parsing the file file://M:\Documents..." Beim Arbeiten und schliessen der Applikation am 24.12.2011 sind mir keine Fehlermeldungen oder Probleme aufgefallen.
15:07:29 <Stefan> Eine weitere Frage:" Welches ist das stabilste und am einfachsten zu handhabende/empfohlene Datenformat für die Buchhaltungsdaten?"
15:12:58 <warlord> Hi Stefan .. mostly English speakers here.
15:13:49 <warlord> But if this is a "new" file, it sounds like you might be hitting the "Windows Opening Balance transactions create bogus timestamps" bug.
15:14:25 <warlord> ... the workaround is that you need to gunzip the data file and search for instances of '1969' or '1970' and change them to e.g. 1971 so that the dates are "valid"
15:15:19 <Stefan> Hi Warlord. I hoped to find some german speakers, but I try to make myself unterstandable...
15:15:46 <warlord> If you need german speakers your best option is to subscribe to the gnucash-de mailing list and send a request there.
15:16:17 <Stefan> My Problem is, that I worked during 2011 with GC. The last bookings I did on dec. 24 without any errors or problems.
15:17:03 <Stefan> Trying to open GC again on jan. 1 2012 I received the noted error message...
15:17:32 <Stefan> I already tried the german Mailinglist, but no answer until today...
15:20:30 <warlord> What is the full path of the data file?
15:21:39 <warlord> i'll be back in a bit -- heading to lunch.
15:22:08 <Stefan> "M:\Documents\z_Privat\Buchhaltung_2011_GnuCash\Schoch_Buchhaltung_GnuCash.gnucash"
15:23:08 <Stefan> I think I changed in October or November the location of the data file but never had problems with that...
15:23:17 <Stefan> Enjoy your lunch...
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16:18:27 <warlord> Stefan: okay, Im back. thanks. it was good.
16:19:40 <warlord> Any chance you could look for the gnucash.trace file? It *might* contain more information about what's failing to parse.
16:19:48 <Joc> as the owner of a small company I do two things, one is that I buy stuff and get reimbursed later, and second I get paid from the profit, my question is how to setup the accounts for that. In the first case, I'm guessing there would be 3 accounts involved: 1)Expenses:Vendors:vendor x 2)"my expense account" 3)Assets:Bank:Checking account. I'm just not sure how "my expense account" should be set: is it an asset or equity, should the tybe be "cash", "a/payable" or som
16:21:10 <warlord> Are you saying that you (personally) buy stuff (from your personal accounts) for your business, and then get reimbursed from your business for those purchases
16:21:11 <warlord> ?
16:21:23 <Joc> yes
16:23:29 <warlord> In that case it's not technically an expense (to you). you should just create an Assets:Reibursible Expenses account and when you buy something for the business it would be Cash -> A:R I
16:26:23 <Stefan> Sorry... Was working... After hours i found the trace files but I don't understand them...
16:26:35 <Joc> ok, it's done. I was wondering if it should be set as "a/receivable". why should it be set as "cash"?
16:27:16 <jmd> Reimbursible expenses are rarely assets.
16:28:12 <Joc> can you explain that a bit more, when should "a/receivable" be used?
16:28:18 <warlord> Joc: no, it should not be A/R -- that's only for using the Business features
16:28:45 <warlord> You should only use A/R and A/P accounts when you use the Invoicing and Bill business features
16:29:39 <Joc> ok.
16:29:42 <Joc> I've not explored much the business features yet.
16:30:25 <Joc> maybe I should
16:31:08 <Joc> what about the account that should be set when I get paid a revenue?
16:35:33 <jmd> Joc, I just have "business income" account
16:36:25 <Stefan> There are about 300 trace files...
16:37:13 <Joc> jmd under what? "equity:business income: equity"?
16:37:52 <Joc> mind you, this is not a "business income", it's an "owner income"
16:38:47 <Joc> does that make sense to set it as "equity:owner income:equity"
16:38:58 <jmd> I try to avoid "equity".
16:39:17 <Joc> ?
16:39:38 <jmd> It's a euphemism for "accounting errors"
16:39:50 <Joc> oh?
16:39:55 <Stefan> @warlord: http://pastebin.com/RqBrXyhA
16:39:55 <gncbot> Stefan: Error: "warlord:" is not a valid command.
16:40:15 <Stefan> -> warlord: http://pastebin.com/RqBrXyhA
16:40:46 <Stefan> Trace File from the first time i got the error...
16:40:55 <jmd> Joc, If a customer pays an invoice, then that's business income.
16:41:41 <jmd> Income for the business. If the business is a sole trader, then the owner and the business are one and the same.
16:43:32 <Joc> I know that the "opening balance" is under equity, because that's money that just appeared out of nowhere, and I was thinking that paying an owner is also money that goes to "nowhere" as far as the company is concerned, at least that the logic I came up with so far
16:45:32 <jmd> Joc, That logic is flawed.
16:45:42 <Joc> jmd, I agree, If a customer pays an invoice, then that's business income, I'm pretty sure I got that setup properly. What I'm asking for is an acount that tracks the money that goes from the company checking acount to myself, to pay myself for the work I did
16:46:34 <Joc> I'm still learning... and willing to learn more... :)
16:47:01 <jmd> That's just a transfer from the company cheque account to your personal account.
16:47:43 <Joc> GnuCash is a great way to learn accounting principals
16:48:26 <Joc> but still, the question remains, how that "personal acount" should be set?
16:48:56 <jmd> Well how are you physically transfering the money?
16:50:33 <Joc> when we have enough profit, we write a business cheque to be paid to me, it's basically a pay cheque
16:51:36 <Joc> so the money moves from to "assets:bank:checking account" to "X", when "x" is the account I'm trying to set
16:51:38 <jmd> And you pay that cheque into your personal bank account?
16:54:17 <jmd> But it sounds a bit shonky to me.
16:54:23 <Joc> as far as the company is concerned, it's irrelevant how I deposit that cheque, but that's the case, it goes to my "personal chequing account", but I don't what to track that "personal chequing account".
16:55:22 <Joc> I want to track the money that goes to each owner
16:55:38 <jmd> Then don't track it. Just make a transfer from "business chequing account" to "personal chequeing account".
16:55:44 <Joc> each owner would have their own account
16:56:05 <jmd> So what's the problem?
16:57:51 <Joc> I want to separate the accounts of the business, and the accounts of the owners. The company does not need, and should not track what we do with our own personal money, but it needs to know what money went to each owner as their salary.
16:58:44 <jmd> I think I see where you're coming from. and this is a shortcoming of the design of Gnucash.
16:59:21 <jmd> It's realy not that flexible.
16:59:31 <Joc> I need to set a "salary" account (or revenue, or income, I'm not sure what's the right term here)
17:00:31 <Joc> I find GnuCash incredibly flexible and powerful, it's way more than what I had in mind when I started.
17:00:43 <jmd> Either you have to trust the company accountant not to pry into the accounts of the owners.
17:01:15 <jmd> Or you have to set up a whole seperate account tree and manually synchronise them.
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17:01:31 <Joc> I'm the accountant... so far we've been using Excel...
17:01:41 <jmd> Ugghhhh!
17:02:44 <Joc> so gnucash is light year more advanced than excel for that kind of stuff. It's a home based business, nothing fancy. But still have to pay taxes and so on.
17:02:47 <jmd> Gnucash is great of personal or single owner businesses. For bigger ventures, consider sql-ledger instead.
17:03:08 <jmd> excel is a spreadsheet program, not an accounting program.
17:03:45 <Joc> If find gnucash already a chalenge, actually it's accounting principal I still find chalenging at time to get my head around.
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17:04:38 <Joc> right now I'm thinking to set that account as "equity:owner income:equity"
17:05:15 <jmd> If I understand your situation correctly, then I would have a different set of accounts for yourself and the business.
17:05:27 <Joc> definitely
17:05:28 <Stefan> -> warlord: I'm off for today... I'll try to reach you again tomorrow...
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17:06:12 <Joc> the accounts for myself are none of the company's business
17:06:21 <jmd> Joc, You seem to have been using the word "business" and "company" interchangably. Is it a company or what?
17:06:50 <Joc> ??? to me it means the same thing
17:07:21 <jmd> Joc, To the tax office and corporate fraud lawyers it's a big difference.
17:07:39 <Joc> English is not my first language.
17:07:58 <jmd> In what country does this business operate?
17:08:04 <Joc> Canada
17:08:14 <Joc> done from home
17:08:23 <Joc> two parners
17:08:34 <Joc> err, two partners
17:08:59 <jmd> But you haven't registered the business as a company?
17:09:00 <Joc> have been operating for about 10 years now
17:09:53 <jmd> Companies have shareholders and directors.
17:09:58 <Joc> yes, we are registed, for taxes purposes, but I guess "register" can mean a lot of things
17:11:30 <Joc> I'm pretty fuzzy as to the difference between a "company" and a "business", as you noticed, I used them as synonyms.
17:12:43 <jmd> A company has shares, and shareholders. The shares may or may not be traded on the stock exchange.
17:14:33 <Joc> we are partners, each with 50% of the company. we are not public. Not sure if you would call that "shares", I guess not.
17:15:47 <jmd> I'm amazed that you have been going 10 years, but you don't even know what kind of legal entity you are!!
17:15:56 <Joc> hehe
17:16:41 <Joc> I'm sure there are thousand, maybe even million that operate like that.
17:16:57 <jmd> I'm sure there is not.
17:17:06 <jmd> Let me ask you this:
17:17:27 <jmd> If a customer was to sue you for 10 million dollars, who pays?
17:18:13 <Joc> a home business/company does not care some much about their legal status, they make stuff, they sells stuff, and they pay taxes on the sales.
17:19:42 <Joc> In Canada we don't spend our life at suing each other, at least I like to believe that. We make simple stuff, if the customers does not like it, we refund them, end of story.
17:19:43 <jmd> I'm suprised you haven't been busted by the consumer affairs dept or whatever it's called in Canada.
17:20:40 <jmd> But if you sold them a product which blew up and killed someone. Who do the relatives go to for compensation?
17:21:03 <Joc> lol
17:21:20 <jmd> It's a laughing matter until it happens.
17:21:59 <Joc> not sure what to say here...
17:22:22 <jmd> I'm really surprised that you don't know. In fact, I'm not familiar with Canadian law, but I suspect you may be operating illegally.
17:22:27 <Joc> If we were considering that, there would be no business.
17:23:14 <jmd> I've lived in four different countries, and I'm sure such an ad hoc operation would be illegal in all of them.
17:23:25 <Joc> As far as the govermment is concern, all they care is to get the share of the taxes.
17:24:19 <jmd> That's what the tax office cares about. But what about the consumer affairs, trade and industry and corporate affairs deptments?
17:24:42 <jmd> What does your letterhead say?
17:25:10 <Joc> never even thought of them
17:25:34 <Joc> Company name, that's it.
17:26:32 <jmd> So you are a Company.
17:26:41 <Joc> ok, so be it.
17:27:48 <jmd> If you are a company, then you are obliged to comply with the corporate law of the province in which the company is registered.
17:28:07 <jmd> (this is in addition to the taxation requirements)
17:28:31 <jmd> In which province are you registered?
17:29:09 <Joc> we are not incorporated. was thinking about it at one point of time, but we deemed it unnecessary expenses.
17:30:30 <jmd> Right. So you are not a Company.
17:30:37 <Joc> lol
17:30:49 <jmd> You are a business partnership.
17:30:58 <Joc> having a identity crisis... :)
17:31:06 <jmd> phew!
17:31:37 <jmd> So the business has a set of accounts.
17:31:38 <Joc> yes, I thing you are right, the proper term is probably business partnership.
17:32:38 <Joc> yes, and I'm trying to set that account to track the owner salary/revenue/income
17:33:34 <jmd> So do Joc & Partner Financial Advisers employ any staff?
17:34:25 <Joc> just us, the two parners, we're having a lot of hats, one of them is accounting
17:34:44 <Joc> at least trying to do accounting...
17:34:45 <jmd> But the partners are not employees.
17:35:07 <jmd> At least that would be highly unusual.
17:35:58 <Joc> I guess not, but we do pay ourself from time to time, when we decide that's the right time (enough profit, no planned purchased, etc)
17:36:15 <jmd> So the Gnucash business accounts tree has a number of expenses.
17:37:26 <jmd> Two of the expense accounts will be expenses:Joc and expenses:Partner
17:37:57 <Joc> expense??? I was really thinking that should not be an expense as far a the partnership is concerned.
17:38:17 <jmd> Yeah you are probably right. Expense is not the right term.
17:38:48 <jmd> But the account behaves like an expense.
17:39:08 <Joc> I was thinking to put that under "equity", but I'm not sure if that's the right place.
17:40:33 <Joc> At the moment I have it as "equity:partner income:equity" and the arithmetic seems to work fine, but I'm not sure if it's the "right" way.
17:40:42 <jmd> So call it something else. I think the legal term is "drawing" but I'm not sure.
17:41:05 <Joc> drawing?!?!?
17:41:45 <Joc> oh wow, what a strange name, IMHO
17:42:24 <jmd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_accounting
17:43:48 <Joc> oh wow, that's interesting!
17:43:55 <jmd> So have a Withdrawl:Joc and a Withdrawl:Partner
17:45:37 <Joc> I'll read that page with interest, I just saw "Equity of Partner A"
17:45:50 <jmd> Then you will have in your personal Gnucash (assuming the you keep one) a "Income from business" account, and it'll be necessary to manually sync them.
17:46:33 <jmd> Equity, in that context means the money A put in to start the business.
17:49:05 <Joc> this is strictly from the partnership perspective, the "personal gnucash" is irrelevant here, anyway there is no such thing.
17:49:24 <jmd> ok. Then you don't have to worry about it.
17:50:23 <jmd> But anyway, you'll want to have an account for the money the business pays to Joc as "salary" (not sure if that's technically the right word).
17:50:36 <jmd> and another for Partner's salary.
17:50:37 <warlord> sorry, got pulled into a meeting.
17:50:40 <Joc> yes, the partnership has to worry about it, I need two account in GC, one it the chequing account, and the other account I'm trying to setup.
17:51:36 <jmd> warlord, Summary: After 10 years Joc has just found out what kind of business he is operating.
17:51:43 <Joc> yes, it's the "salary" I'm trying to track in GC
17:52:25 <jmd> Well call it salary for now, you look up if that's technically the right word later, and rename it if necessary.
17:52:31 <Joc> lol, heh, I knew what we were, just not having the "words"
17:52:41 <Joc> still...
17:53:26 <Joc> the question still remains!!! Where to put that salary acount??? Under asset, equity or expense?
17:53:44 <jmd> I would put it under salary
17:54:01 <Joc> ok, but under what?
17:54:21 <jmd> under the root
17:54:22 <Joc> what type of account?
17:54:44 <warlord> jmd: yeah, I just read through the logs.
17:55:06 <jmd> It's an expense account.
17:55:21 <Joc> There's got to be a lot of people that does that. This is very common stuff for a company/business/partnership
17:55:35 <warlord> @tell Stefan here's the error: * 17:23:55 CRIT <gnc.io> [dom_tree_handlers_all_gotten_p()] Not defined and it should be: trn:date-posted --- This is probably related to the Windows Opening Balance issue I mentioned before. You will need to hand-modify your data file and add some "date posted" data.
17:55:35 <gncbot> warlord: Error: "dom_tree_handlers_all_gotten_p()" is not a valid command.
17:55:52 <warlord> damn, that didn't work right.
17:56:08 <warlord> @tell Stefan here's the error: * 17:23:55 CRIT <gnc.io> {dom_tree_handlers_all_gotten_p()} Not defined and it should be: trn:date-posted --- This is probably related to the Windows Opening Balance issue I mentioned before. You will need to hand-modify your data file and add some "date posted" data.
17:56:08 <gncbot> warlord: The operation succeeded.
17:56:49 <jmd> Even if "expense" is not the right technical word, it's money going out of the business.
17:59:19 <Joc> can not set it as "new top level account:salary", it has to be one of the choices there.
18:00:10 <warlord> jmd: The question you need to ask is: to whom is it an expense. If you, as an individual, are buying things on behalf of the business, then it's just a pass-through to you but it's an expense to the business.
18:00:10 <jmd> Why not?
18:00:21 <Joc> I don't really care about the actual name, I'm more interested about where the "salary" should go in the hierarchy
18:00:43 <warlord> So... in your personal books it's Cash->Asset:Reimbursible. And then A:Reimb -> Cash when you get reimbursed.
18:01:27 <warlord> To the company, that's A/P -> Expense when you file your reimbursement request and then Cash -> A/P when the business pays you back.
18:01:41 <jmd> Joc, File->New Account
18:02:05 <warlord> Joc: for salary, for your personal accounts it would be Income:Salary -> Asset:Bank (split amongst your Expense:Taxes accounts for withholdings)
18:02:25 <jmd> and under Parent Account, select "New top level account"
18:02:32 <warlord> From the business side it's Asset:Bank -> Expenses:Salaries (and possible splits into additional corporate payroll taxes)
18:02:40 <jmd> warlord, He doesn't keep a personal book.
18:03:07 <Joc> warlord: I'm trying to set the books for the partnerships, not a personal books.
18:03:24 <warlord> Joc: In that case then it's just Asset:Bank -> Expenses:Salaries
18:03:29 <warlord> plain and simple.
18:03:42 <jmd> Personally I think the Account Type field is superfluous.
18:03:49 <Joc> the partnership pay a salary to the partners, from the chequing account.
18:04:17 <jmd> Anyway. It's bedtime for me.
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18:04:37 <Joc> warlord: would that make sense to put that under "equity"
18:04:57 <warlord> Joc: no
18:05:00 <warlord> It's an expense
18:05:48 <Joc> ok, I was not sure if is should have been under asset or equity.
18:05:57 <warlord> If it's truly salary (and not a capital withdrawal)
18:06:12 <warlord> It would *definitely* not be under asset...
18:06:34 <warlord> (well, one split of the transaction would be -- the Checking or Cash account that's paying out the salary)
18:06:44 <warlord> The other end should be under Expense if it's truly Salar
18:06:51 <Joc> but bank is under asset
18:06:55 <Joc> no>
18:06:57 <Joc> no?
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18:07:15 <warlord> Joc: Do you understand double-entry accounting?
18:08:13 <Joc> the idea is that the partnership pay the owners of the partnership a salary/income/revenue, so the money goes from the chequing account to the account I'm tring to set
18:08:57 <Joc> I'm not accountant, so the right "wording" is often fuzzy
18:09:57 <Joc> I think I do understand the double-entry accounting, that's why I'm try to set the booking in GC, instead of Excel.
18:11:07 <warlord> Sorry, gotta run to another meeting. back in ~40 mins.
18:11:32 <warlord> Joc: well, it does very much depend on whether it's legally salary or just a 'capital withdrawal'
18:11:35 <Joc> Where I was not sure, is if that "salary" account should be under asset, equity or expense, all make sense in some ways
18:11:50 <warlord> salary is expense. capital withdrawal is equity.
18:12:17 <Joc> ok, capital withdrawal might be the right thing
18:13:35 <Joc> I think, that's probably the closest thing of what we are actually doing, withdrawing money from the partnership to pay ourself.
18:22:59 <Joc> warlord: thanks a lot, you've made things clear for me now. I understand the salary as expense and the capital withdrawal as equity, that make complete sense.
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18:59:42 <warlord> you're welcome.
19:01:36 <Joc> your answers were very usefull and to the point. :)
19:01:39 <Joc> I'm curious, you're at work and you're chatting at the same time?
19:07:34 <warlord> yes.
19:08:29 <Joc> it's nice that you can do that.
19:09:48 <warlord> :)
19:17:52 <puck> Ah ha, the nolock option for the Python bindings is handy. No more stale locks if the python script crashes.
19:22:17 <warlord> But be careful if two scripts are running simultaneously.
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19:26:38 <puck> Yup, read only.
19:32:05 <warlord> okay.
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19:48:41 <puck> Heh, the python modules try and remove the lock file, even if you said nolock.
19:48:54 <puck> I can see issues if you have it open as well *with* a lock.
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20:20:16 <warlord> puck: file a bug report.
20:20:52 <puck> warlord: ack
20:25:32 <puck> done
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20:30:16 <warlord> cool. thakns
20:30:18 <warlord> thanks, even
20:32:53 <puck> np
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