2011-10-05 GnuCash IRC logs

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03:14:24 <Dr_Heckle> Morning everyone
03:15:03 <Dr_Heckle> I can't figure out how i should have my account structure/types for the following scenario
03:15:53 <Dr_Heckle> I have a friend, I'm letting him crash on my couch for ~1month for $150
03:16:16 <Dr_Heckle> but how do i record it? Where does the money come from...
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03:40:07 <Dr_Heckle> Assets:Other Assets:Loan To:Friend (Asset) --> Debit/Increase: 150 Credit/Decrease: ????
03:41:48 <Dr_Heckle> Should I create an Income:Friend (Income) account in which to show his money entering my "radar"?
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06:24:34 <moldy> Dr_Heckle: that's a possibility, or you can use some kind of "miscellaneous" income account
06:26:50 <Dr_Heckle> My current solution (just finished, @ work) is an Assets:Other Assets:Loan To:Personal Loan (A/R) (<< that needs less branches :) and i've added my friend as a customer and created an invoice against him
06:27:24 <moldy> that works, yes
06:27:28 <Dr_Heckle> Which transfers money as follows Personal Loans --> Income:Other Income
06:27:30 <Dr_Heckle> :/
06:28:23 <Dr_Heckle> yeah it works... but the money is there when it's yet to exist... I guess i'll just move it when i pay the invoice *shrugs*
06:28:26 <moldy> i don't use a/r accounts for "personal" stuff because i want to avoid the hassle of the business features in those cases, but you can do it if you like, of course
06:28:51 <Dr_Heckle> the built in invoice generator could be nice... I'm about to find out :)
06:28:54 <moldy> hm, i don't understand the problem yet
06:29:17 <Dr_Heckle> i just don't like how it shows money that isn't there
06:29:23 <moldy> it shouldn't
06:29:41 <Dr_Heckle> u sticking around for a minute?
06:29:46 <moldy> yep
06:29:48 <moldy> your friend owes you money, right?
06:29:53 <Dr_Heckle> yep
06:30:01 <moldy> that debt is an asset for you
06:30:10 <Dr_Heckle> right
06:30:10 <moldy> however, it is not a "current asset"
06:30:17 <Dr_Heckle> short term
06:30:25 <Dr_Heckle> help file says to call it current
06:30:28 <Dr_Heckle> ;)
06:30:40 <Dr_Heckle> i think i follow you though, i don't actually have it?
06:30:42 <moldy> i think misunderstand what "current asset" is
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06:30:57 <moldy> a "current asset" is money you can use to pay stuff
06:31:00 <Dr_Heckle> :/ afk bbin 15
06:31:05 <moldy> (roughly speaking)
06:31:06 <moldy> ok
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06:42:40 <moldy> Dr_Heckle: http://nopaste.info/92a6435cbc.html
06:47:25 <Dr_Heckle> right, "exactly" what I have
06:47:41 <moldy> Dr_Heckle: fine, then you are doing it right :)
06:47:47 <Dr_Heckle> i dislike the existance of Income:Friend is all
06:47:56 <moldy> hmm, why?
06:48:08 <moldy> the money has to come from "somewhere"
06:48:25 <Dr_Heckle> i have a "hole" Income:Friend is the "bump" to fill my "hole", but my "hole" is still empty
06:48:46 <moldy> hmm, i don't understand
06:49:19 <moldy> you are earning money (income), so it's clear that some income account should be involved
06:49:25 <moldy> you can use any income account you like
06:49:35 <Dr_Heckle> right right right....
06:49:42 <Dr_Heckle> i get it, and why
06:50:02 <Dr_Heckle> it's just kinda icky to me
06:50:13 <Dr_Heckle> but it's the right way & i'll get over it
06:50:20 <moldy> it takes some getting used to, but once you get it, it makes alot of sense :)
06:50:38 <moldy> note that use of the business features (customer, invoice) is optional
06:50:47 <Dr_Heckle> yep
06:50:49 <moldy> i don't use them for personal loans
06:52:25 <Dr_Heckle> guh
06:52:33 <Dr_Heckle> their invoice suxorz
06:52:53 <Dr_Heckle> time to pull up the spread sheet editor :D
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09:52:24 <fell> warlord: what do you think about http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2011/10/2011-10-04.html#T15:44:44 ?
09:52:54 <warlord> Yeah, I can install that.
09:53:15 <fell> Fine.
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10:12:57 <warlord> fell: are you not worried about blind users?
10:13:51 <fell> One of the options in CAPTCHA, the "reCAPTCHA" widget, includes an alternative audio CAPTCHA for such cases
10:15:46 <fell> If possible I would configure a case sequence: optical captcha, accoustic captcha, moderator confirmation
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10:32:12 <warlord> fell: reCAPTCHA should be enabled now. Can you try>?
10:34:01 <warlord> Looks like it's "working"
10:38:08 <fell> Funny, like AM radio.
10:40:19 <warlord> ??
10:40:22 <warlord> Oh, the audio?
10:40:48 <warlord> I didn't try it -- I just looked at the 'create account'
10:41:58 <fell> you can try it without creating an account
10:47:12 <warlord> okay... but it does seem to be working.
10:50:16 <fell> I just created the user Audiotest. I played the audio, was unsure, repeated it and could easly enter the code.
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10:51:46 <fell> But if I click the cancel link in the email confirmation, I get: "
10:51:48 <fell> Cancel e-mail confirmation
10:51:50 <fell> Invalid confirmation code. The code may have expired.
10:53:11 <warlord> Hmmm
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10:55:29 <fell> The mail says "This confirmation code will expire at 14:36, 12 October 2011."
10:56:00 <warlord> Hmmm....
10:57:53 <warlord> That's odd.
10:58:35 <warlord> I didn't go through the process of creating an account.. Is it possible to delete an account once it's made?
10:59:32 * fell scanning http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/
11:00:53 <fell> I see a few extensions in http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=delete+user&button=
11:05:14 <warlord> I guess I could install an extension -- I was just thinking that it would be easier to test if I could delete the account after I create it..
11:05:29 <warlord> Do you get the same error if you try it again?
11:05:50 <warlord> (I did have to mix-and-match the reCaptcha code)
11:08:32 <fell> the line is currently slow...
11:11:09 <fell> the old links remain expired. Should I create one more or do yoou like to create on?
11:11:24 <fell> one
11:16:03 <fell> Wait, I resent a confirmation mail
11:16:52 <fell> Your e-mail address has been confirmed. You may now log in and enjoy the wiki.
11:22:03 <warlord> Okay, so it is working?
11:24:14 <fell> yep
11:24:21 <warlord> Okay, good.
11:24:31 <warlord> I wonder what was up with the expired code?
11:25:10 <fell> a fissure in the room time continuum?
11:31:56 <warlord> maybe..
11:36:23 <fell> or one of the black holes, they produce at CERN? ;)
11:36:31 <warlord> LOL
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11:44:35 <warlord> fell: I am seeing a lot of errors like: File does not exist: /home/nmz/nmz/externals/logo_w120.png, referer: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash
11:44:49 <warlord> Is the wiki referring back to an old-website icon that no longer exists?
11:45:39 <fell> Hah, I was just wondering: didn't we have a logo in the upper left corner of the wiki pages?
11:46:22 <warlord> Yep..
11:46:33 <warlord> I think we need to fix that to point to the (new and improved) logo..
11:47:51 <warlord> the only image I see now is packtpub_gnucash_2.4cov.png
11:49:14 <fell> Instructions: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:FAQ#How_do_I_change_the_logo.3F
11:50:00 * fell has to update htdocs ...
11:51:43 <warlord> I just sent email to -devel..
11:51:46 <warlord> Gotta run.
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15:09:09 <gjanssens> Hi
15:09:23 <fell> Hi Geert!
15:09:35 <gjanssens> I'm doing some additional research regarding my work on credit notes
15:10:00 <gjanssens> I stumbled upon employee vouchers which have a field I don't understand
15:10:22 <gjanssens> (Vouchers don't seem to be documented in the Concepts guide by the way)
15:10:28 <warlord> Hey Geert!
15:10:33 <gjanssens> There's the Payment field
15:10:46 <gjanssens> Which can be Cash or Card
15:10:52 <gjanssens> How should I interpret this ?
15:11:19 <warlord> Right, the concept is that an employee might have a "corporate credit card" and the company may pay the card directly instead of paying the employee.
15:11:53 <gjanssens> Ah, so the entries marked Credit card won't be payed directly to the employee?
15:12:00 <warlord> correct
15:12:16 <warlord> those will go onto the employee's "credit card" account.
15:12:26 <warlord> (instead of directly into A/P)
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15:13:23 <gjanssens> Ok. So when time comes to record the payment in GnuCash, there are actually two payments to record, right ?
15:13:34 <gjanssens> One to the A/P and one to the Credit Card account
15:14:22 <warlord> Correct. (the latter doesnt use Process Payment)
15:14:58 <gjanssens> Ok, that clears it up.
15:15:12 <gjanssens> Thanks
15:15:57 <gjanssens> It seems like a pretty advanced feature. Did you ever use it yourself, warlord ?
15:16:12 <gjanssens> I assume you wrote it...
15:16:58 <warlord> Yes, I did (to both questions)
15:17:10 <gjanssens> Cool...
15:17:49 <fell> BTW: warlord, did you never get paid in advance?
15:18:14 <warlord> nope, I never got paid in advance.
15:18:45 <fell> By german law I have to record it then as liability, not as negative A/R
15:19:14 <fell> Poor boy ;)
15:21:23 <warlord> That's so odd.. -A = L
15:21:43 <warlord> The system does keep track that they have pre-paid ...
15:22:38 <warlord> anyways, I gotta run for a bit. back in an hour or so
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15:24:20 <fell> As a former ebay seller; I usually got the payment in advance.
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15:28:55 <fell> gjanssens: should I comment the in advance problem in bug #535781 or open a seaparate one?
15:33:50 <gjanssens> fell: I didn't really follow the advance payment part. I suppose you see this as a third form of payment for employee made expenses ?
15:34:04 <gjanssens> Next to Cash and Credit Card payment types
15:35:34 <gjanssens> In fact neither has anything to do with credit notes directly.
15:36:09 <gjanssens> I just saw there was the same "artificial" restriction on the Cash payment type as there is on the total invoice amount:
15:36:29 <gjanssens> A total invoice amount currently can't be negative (which obstructs credit notes)
15:37:06 <fell> In theory, it would also possible for employee expenses: I give the driver 50 € to fill gas next day.
15:37:57 <gjanssens> That's a prepayment, so it should be recorded as a payment
15:38:36 <gjanssens> The entries on the voucher (which are marked as Cash or Credit Card) are invoicable items, still to be payed
15:39:13 <gjanssens> For the prepayment, I would think you simply add a payment for the employee without linking it to a voucher yet
15:39:17 <fell> then he comes back and paid 65€
15:40:06 <gjanssens> When the driver submits his 65€ voucher, first the 50€ prepayment will automatically be substracted and the vouchers open balance remains 15€
15:40:24 <gjanssens> Which you subsequently pay him.
15:40:51 <gjanssens> At least that's how I understand it.
15:41:34 <gjanssens> A credit note related to an employee would appear if the employee submitted a voucher with more expenses than he actually created
15:41:45 <gjanssens> (By mistake, no doubt :)
15:41:45 <fell> In theory right, but process payment is restricted.
15:42:15 <gjanssens> You'd need a credit note to balance the surplus in expenses.
15:42:27 <gjanssens> How is the process payment restricted ?
15:43:51 <fell> Let's assume today is the last day of the fiscal year.
15:44:36 <fell> I have to record 50 € cash->current assets->driver;
15:45:41 <fell> tomorow he shows the voucher over 65 €, which is a liability
15:46:50 <fell> then process payment needs a split between 50€ asset... and 15 € cash.
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15:50:23 <gjanssens> Hmm, my knowledge of such year end thingies is very limited.
15:50:44 <gjanssens> But still, I would consider this corner cases that need manual intervention
15:50:51 <gjanssens> I'm sure there are others like that.
15:51:36 <gjanssens> For this example, I suppose you can manually correct this by adding a transaction from A/P to asset of 50€
15:52:05 <fell> There both are current assets, but if the client pays parts in advance, I must select in the process payment dialoge the liability(advance) and the asset (cash or bank), which the dialog currently is not allowing.
15:54:17 <gjanssens> Now you're confusing me. Where did the client come in ?
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15:55:32 <fell> That was my origin, before I transfered it to the employee.
15:59:14 <gjanssens> What do the customer's payments have to do with the pre-payment to your driver for gas ?
16:00:07 <gjanssens> With what you present so far, they are independent business transactions as far as I'm concerned.
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16:00:31 <gjanssens> With two independent business partners
16:14:34 <gjanssens> In any case, I don't see how credit notes are involved here.
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16:15:11 <gjanssens> If you think something should be improved to handle your use case, it would be for another bug, not #535781
16:18:21 <fell> I am testing for employees ...
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16:31:21 <fell> mooi, het werkt
16:32:22 <gjanssens> Wunderbar
16:35:06 <fell> It seems, I missed a great improvement. :) (last night I finally had the time, to configure eclipse for my builds.)
16:37:18 <gjanssens> Heh, I'm learning new aspects of GnuCash every day myself (I'm using eclipse as well by the way)
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16:57:46 <fell> gjanssens: I found a related bug report #627671
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17:06:46 <joe> Hello. I'm using GnuCash 2.4.7 to manage my checkbook. Just now, after entering a deposit, I accidentally hit two keys at once. I'm not sure, now, which, but all I have is the Accounts tab and I don't know how to find/open the tab that I think of as the check register. I've kept the program open, to avoid making matters worse. What do I do to get back to where I need to be?
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17:09:57 <fell> If you know the name of your account, e.g. checkbook, you can doubleclick the name in the accounts page.
17:13:07 <joe> OK, it took a little digging to find it, but I've got it. Thanx, Fell.
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17:20:34 <gjanssens> fell: I remember the e-mail conversation on bug report #627671. It's indeed related.
17:20:58 <gjanssens> I have added a comment on the report on why the restriction is there.
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18:00:07 <fell> gjanssens: I commented too.
18:07:00 <warlord> fell: I still don't understand how an 'advance' is any different than a 'payment' except that it happens before the voucher is filed instead of after.
18:07:45 <fell> The problem it: it appears on the wrong side of the balance sheet.
18:08:34 <fell> Create a blank file and process a prepaiment and you get negative numbers in the balance sheet.
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18:09:22 <warlord> That sounds like a bug in the balance sheet ;-/
18:10:05 <fell> No, in the missing counnter accounts
18:10:43 <warlord> I guess I can see the issue here -- it's "hiding" it. See, that's the thing, there *ARE* no counter-accounts here. GnuCash doesn't need them because it knows how much is owed in either direction.
18:11:34 <warlord> With what you are saying invoices should always be in A/R:Invoices and Payments (pre- or post-) should always be in A/R:Payments
18:11:50 <warlord> But GnuCash doesn't need to do that because it keeps track of payments v. invoices automagically.
18:12:07 <warlord> It's just that the B.S. doesn't "move" the negative asset over to the other side.
18:13:26 <fell> But it is against the GOB, the german GAAP, It is an unallowed balance shortage(?).
18:14:52 <warlord> So fix the BS. Make it aware of A/R and A/P accounts and have it automatically split them into contra-account pairs.
18:15:31 <warlord> It's simple to look at an A/R transaction and know whether it's an invoice or a payment.
18:15:47 <warlord> just add them into separate collectors instead of a single collector for the A/R account.
18:17:05 <warlord> Or perhaps only do that for open lots, since it's only the unused pre-payments (or over-payments) and unpaid invoices that matter.
18:17:27 <warlord> still, this is something that can be done in the report without changing anything in the UI.
18:17:37 <warlord> ... or worse, in the data base.
18:20:10 <fell> In our business account templates the counter accounts also have different numbers.
18:22:44 <fell> IMHO they should also appear separate in the CoA.
18:24:18 <warlord> Unfortunately there are now mutually exclusive requirements based on the technologies we employ. Using Lots to track invoice / payments means invoices and payments must go into the same account.
18:24:48 <warlord> If they must go into separate accounts then we cannot use Lots, as they exist today.
18:27:26 <fell> So it will be much work.
18:27:56 <warlord> TONS of work.. Plus a converter to take old files and convert them up, and possibly a converter to go back.
18:28:09 <warlord> Or you can just fix the balance sheet report and move on with your life ;)
18:30:14 <fell> The background is: A owes you a million, you owe B a million. The short balance showes 0;
18:31:16 <fell> But if A declares bankruptcym, you haas a big problem.
18:31:19 <warlord> Right, but if you fix the balance sheet as I explained above then it will still show a balance of 0 but you'll see the 1MM on both sides.
18:37:05 <fell> So in short: it would be easier to let the balance sheet run through the lots in the A/R and A/P accounts than expnding the lots mechanics.
18:37:58 <fell> I hope the readers of the bug report read until here. ;)
18:39:38 <warlord> yes, I think it would be tons easier.
18:39:51 <warlord> and feel free to add another link in the bug reports. ;)
18:42:13 <gjanssens> To return to my current pet peeve: I have updated the Credit Notes analysis wiki page with more subtle interactions.
18:42:25 <gjanssens> Go read it if you have some time ;)
18:42:36 * gjanssens needs some sleep now
18:42:39 <gjanssens> Good night
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18:47:17 <warlord> see ya geert..
18:47:25 <warlord> and thank you (assuming you read the logs)
18:47:37 <warlord> gotta run again
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20:29:13 <fDavid1> hi, what is "Depreciation board" ?
20:31:03 <fell> where did you see it?
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