2011-09-26 GnuCash IRC logs

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06:09:10 <jamesw> hello, how can i report a security issue?
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08:06:00 <warlord> jamesw: what kind of security issue?
08:07:59 <jamesw> concerning bank transmission
08:10:41 <warlord> What about it?
08:13:49 <jamesw> i wanted to raise an issue privately as to not disturb anyone's info :)
08:15:32 <warlord> Depending on what the issue is you might need to talk to the AqB people directly. Can you be more specific without saying *what* the issue is?
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08:55:51 <warlord> For the record (and the logs), the issue was about watching the wiki for surrepticious changes in a particular website.
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09:26:45 <warlord> Hey fell.
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09:29:31 <Innomen> Hello all
09:36:56 <Innomen> I'm attempting to use GnuCash to do the majority of my number crunching in my accounting 201 class, it's working rather well, but I've hit a snag. In one of the exercises I'm supposed to record a sale of merchandise costing X for an amount costing Y (which is higher.) I have a merchandise account to record the price I paid, and an earlier exercise had me buy merchandise to sell, which I subtracted from cash and added to merchandi
09:38:30 <Innomen> I'm tempted to just make a transfer account, of the cash type I guess, to see what happens, try and understand how the thing works.
09:38:55 <warlord> Innomen: that first message was too long, it ended at "subtracted from cash and added to merchandi"
09:39:47 <Innomen> and added to merchandise. Then to record the sale I try to make an invoice to a made up company, for the Y amount which I post and pay, thing is how invoices work in the program is a little confusing. When I create the incoice I'm told to select an
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09:40:39 <Innomen> ount" So I made an account called, creatively enough, income, and selected it. But then when I post and pay the invoice I'm to select a "transfer account." Can someone help me understand the logic of what is meant by transfer account? Or help me find a way to record a sale of merchandise for profit without making an invoice?
09:40:54 <Innomen> Sorry the select text on this app is awful
09:41:17 <Innomen> Whats the character limit on this server? I'll just make a pastebin next time I guess.
09:41:39 <blathijs> You can also just press enter every two sentences or so :-)
09:42:25 <warlord> Innomen: invoices are accrual.. The post-to account is A/R
09:42:28 <Innomen> Yeah I used to do that and then people would complain about punctuating with a carriage return. I've learned there's no way to keep people happy. Also, if I break it up people aren't sure when I'm finished and start responding in the middle.
09:42:28 <blathijs> Innomen: The transfer account is a "Accounts/Receivable" account, which holds the "money you are owed" from the moment of invoicing to the moment of payment
09:44:05 <Innomen> When I go to pay the invoice the post to account is A/r but there is also a list on the right that says "transfer" account. I get the A/r concept, that's where I record debts to me, till they are paid, and I assume either the income account or the transfer account is where the money ends up after it's paid...
09:44:49 <Innomen> If that's the case, I just don't understand why there is even a list on the right of the invoice payment process called transfer account.
09:44:51 <warlord> Innomen: ??? What UI are you in where you see the transfer account?
09:45:15 <Innomen> I'll screen cap and post somewhere, one moment
09:45:27 <warlord> In the invoice window when you're entering your line items you supply the income accounts.. and then when you post you select the A/R account (generally you only need 1)
09:46:13 <Innomen> and after it's posted, click pay, that window, the pay window, is where the "Transfer Account" list is.
09:47:02 <Innomen> If that's where the money is going after the invoice is paid then what is the income account? If that's what the income account is then what is the transfer account?
09:47:36 <Innomen> To me it seems redundant, I'm sure it has a purpose, I'm just not getting it.
09:47:53 <warlord> Innomen: right, that would be the asset account into which the payment goes.
09:47:54 <blathijs> Innomen: That should list your cash or bank account
09:48:12 <warlord> Income -> A/R (Invoice); A/R -> <Transfer>(Asset) (Payment)
09:50:08 <Innomen> Create invoice, asks for Income account, A/r shows debt, post invoice, pay invoice, posts to A/r, asks for transfer account, click ok
09:50:41 <Innomen> When creating the invoice what do I select as the income account? What does that mean?
09:51:04 <Innomen> Should I just select cash there as well?
09:51:12 <warlord> Is Cash an Income account?
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09:51:36 <Innomen> my cash account is a cash account type
09:51:56 <Innomen> the income account is an income account type
09:52:00 <warlord> right.
09:52:01 <Innomen> was trying to keep it simple
09:52:16 <warlord> using the invoice features is not keeping it simple.
09:52:32 <Innomen> income is not an option on the transfer account list
09:52:58 <Innomen> well every time I try to simulate money coming in I got an imbalance, because it always demanded I select a transfer account to explain where the money came from
09:53:31 <warlord> right.. it should come from Income
09:53:33 <Innomen> I would prefer not to use an invoice but I don't want to wreck the reports I make later, know what I mean? It's like the app is stopping me from cooking the books, making money from nowhere hehe
09:54:47 <warlord> Well, true, that is part of the point
09:54:52 <Innomen> alright so to record a sale of merchandise for profit, what would you suggest? How do I record the removal of X amount worth of merchandise to sale amount Y in such a way that the app will calculate profit, Z.
09:55:11 <warlord> gnucash doesn't really do "inventory"
09:55:15 <Innomen> its like the app is incapable of recognizing profit except via an invoice
09:55:16 <warlord> ... which is what you're trying to do
09:55:55 <Innomen> GnuCash won't do T accounts either heh, but I'm doing those by hand after generating reports to fill in the blanks.
09:56:09 <warlord> Sure it is.. not using the invoice features you would create a split transaction: Credit Asset:Inventory, Credit Income, and debit Cash
09:56:16 <Innomen> Right I know it's not an inventory management app, but surly there is a way to handle profit creation
09:56:17 <warlord> "T accounts"?
09:56:48 <Innomen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debits_and_credits#.22T.22_Accounts
09:57:19 <warlord> Sure it does
09:57:29 <Innomen> oh?
09:57:31 <warlord> Actually, every account register is like a T account!
09:58:00 <warlord> And if you want the general ledger you can pull that up under Tools. Although for the layman we suggest using the account registers.
09:58:02 <Innomen> http://media.wiley.com/Lux/16/20816.ngr002.jpg will it output something like this?
09:58:28 <warlord> Not in that form.
09:58:28 <Innomen> I saw the general ledger, I sampled everry report type that seemed relevant
09:58:52 <warlord> I don't mean the GL report. I mean the GL.
09:58:58 <warlord> Tools -> General Ledger
09:59:39 <Innomen> Well that's what I meant, I know the app handles the numbers properly, its just that being a class they have to find way to make things cmplicated so there are like 3 formats for presenting the data to learn, t accounts, horizonal, and then just plug in the numbers via multiple choice.
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10:00:20 <warlord> You could certainly just use a Transaction Report to pull out the raw data.
10:00:20 <Innomen> yeah I saw it as well, we understand each other I think, but my oringial question stands, how do I record a profit? What is this split transaction you mentioned?
10:00:33 <warlord> I just told you.
10:00:40 <warlord> <warlord> Sure it is.. not using the invoice features you would create a split transaction: Credit Asset:Inventory, Credit Income, and debit Cash
10:00:55 <Innomen> I know
10:01:09 <Innomen> and you'll see I asked what a split transaciton is
10:01:25 <Innomen> I'll read up on them generally
10:01:51 <warlord> A "split transaction" is a transaction with more than 2 splits. (a basic transction has exactly two splits, one credit, one debit)
10:02:31 <Innomen> i see
10:03:18 <warlord> Click on the "Split" button in the toolbar. Or turn on Auto Journal or Transaction Journal mode in the register.
10:05:44 <Innomen> ok I clicked split and it made a second line, I think I have enough data for the moment to tinker. But let me be clear and ask, it is going to be possible for me to create a profit via split transactions, without using invoices, right?
10:06:36 <Innomen> Being able to ignore invoices will be extremely helpful. heh, since all the problems are basically in the format of a list of hypothetical events and then questions about those events.
10:06:49 <warlord> Yes
10:07:57 <Innomen> like when the class first started a lot of the time it was like "sold X amount worth of common stock" and I had trouble creating that seed money. I basically made invoices sold to customer inc, 1 unti worth X amount, post and pay, just to get the initial amount in there, heh.
10:08:25 <Innomen> What I've been doing is using this page as a guide for making accounts as requested in the exercises. http://www.principlesofaccounting.com/accounts/accountslist.htm
10:08:32 <warlord> Why? You can create an opening balance from equity...
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10:08:48 <warlord> or just add money via a sales directly via Income -> Cash
10:09:04 <Innomen> well I've been doing this completely by myself, I didn't see any other way at the time.
10:09:09 <Innomen> heh
10:09:36 <warlord> You clearly didn't read the GnuCash Tutorial and Concepts Guide
10:09:36 <Innomen> ok I'm going to experiment with that real quick just to see if I can magic up some monopoly money :P
10:09:42 <warlord> I highly recommend it.
10:09:57 <Innomen> rtfm before I have a goal never helps me
10:10:25 <Innomen> it also deprives me of the chance to learn stuff accidentally via mistakes
10:10:27 <warlord> I still recommend it. It's not a Manual -- it's a Concepts guide (plus a tutorial)
10:10:47 <kimmo> the manual is the IRS guidelines, or your local equivalent
10:10:51 <warlord> Sure, but it keeps you from having to ask for help here.. Lots of this stuff you're asking about it explained there.
10:11:10 <Innomen> heh in theory
10:11:37 <kimmo> I wonder if I could convince the local hightech subsidy program to shell out some cash for gnucash development
10:12:40 <Innomen> If my questions are unworthy to answer because I didn't pour over the manual or guide or whatever you want to call the documentation, that's perfectly your right :) But I do appreciate the help, because while It may seem self evident to you that's because you already know enoug about the app to know wat you're looking for. I've been in the class and using GnuCash since the beginning of August, I assure you I've Googled and read q
10:13:01 <Innomen> kimmo: I tried to convince my instructor to teach the class via GnuCash
10:13:15 <Innomen> seems better than making everyone learn excel
10:13:23 <kimmo> what school is that?
10:13:37 <Innomen> it's a commuity college in kentucky
10:13:43 <Innomen> online course
10:13:56 <Innomen> accounting 201
10:16:17 <Innomen> My instructor is frustrated with me for not breaking out the pencils and paper, which I find very ironic considering the class itself is being taught via computer.
10:16:40 <Innomen> If you guys want a good laugh here is the train wreck that was my initial exposure to the app, I blogged about it. http://underlore.com/TBA/?p=2084
10:18:32 <Innomen> Is there a full forum somewhere for gnucash? like phpbb3 or an equivalent?
10:19:04 <warlord> Innomen: No, but there is the gnucash-user mailing list.
10:20:14 <Innomen> Ok just making sure I didn't miss something else obvious. Is there a specific reason there isn't a forum anywhere? I'm sure that would cut down on the workload in here, and when it came time to update the wiki, whoever was taking the plunge would have a lot of matural to work with
10:20:46 <Innomen> If I were to put one up would the community use it?
10:21:15 <Innomen> material* sorry
10:21:42 <warlord> There's a wiki; and the list (and associated archives)
10:21:52 <warlord> I dont think most of the community would use a forum.
10:22:02 <warlord> We do get asked about it once in a blue moon.
10:22:18 <Innomen> That's amazing to me.
10:22:27 <warlord> Really? I hate forums.
10:22:46 <warlord> Why is it amazing?
10:22:49 <warlord> Forums suck.
10:22:53 <Innomen> Well just imagine this place for 40,000 people in it
10:23:24 <Innomen> they may suck but they are a much better way of handling a large amount of requests, and leveraging the answers for future requests.
10:23:58 <warlord> we dont have that many requests.
10:24:13 <warlord> and monitoring a forum is much more work than a mailing list.
10:24:22 <warlord> and the wiki is for answers and long-living data
10:24:29 <warlord> (and anyone can go update the wiki)
10:26:09 <Innomen> http://ubuntuforums.org/ is a pretty great example of what is needed I think. When I was selecting which app to use for this project I chose GnuCash because it was the most popular open source one that I could find, but I initially rejected it because there was no forum. Sure in theory anyone can edit wikis but as the actually wikipedia will dmeonstrate they are usually lorded over by delete happy mods, and that's if you're well
10:26:20 <warlord> I dont think it's needed at all.
10:26:27 <warlord> And 99% of the gnucash users agree.
10:26:32 <Innomen> well it may not be with a userbase so small
10:26:39 <warlord> Right
10:26:52 <Innomen> argumentum ad populum, and opportunity cost :)
10:27:01 <Innomen> you literally don't know what you're missing *shrugs*
10:27:32 <warlord> Sure I do. Every time I find I have to interact with a forum I think whether I really need to use that product.
10:27:43 <warlord> It's so 1980s BBS system
10:27:50 <Innomen> And this isn't telnet?
10:28:20 <warlord> IRC is.... not the best, but forums aren't real-time either. I much prefer email lists.
10:28:33 <warlord> forums are email lists done poorly.
10:28:46 <Innomen> Whatever man, look you're an op so I'm not allowed to debate you, the instant I start winning you'll go all moderator on me, and I would like to keep this resource since it's the only one I have that understands human English :)
10:29:11 <Innomen> forums with email notification are very nearly real time assuming someone is on the other end.
10:29:26 <Innomen> some even have chats, java, or ajax, etc
10:29:31 <warlord> Ewww
10:29:57 <warlord> Anyways, you're probably 18
10:29:58 <warlord> ;)
10:30:06 <Innomen> 32 but whatever
10:30:19 <warlord> Seriously? And you like forums?
10:30:24 * warlord shrugs
10:30:52 <Innomen> You realize you're the one in the minority right? :P
10:32:01 * warlord shrugs again
10:32:06 <warlord> I do realize I'm old school.
10:32:18 <Innomen> If it makes you feel better I'm only just barely 32, I turned on the 5th :)
10:32:22 <warlord> However I honestly believe that if we had a forum none of the devs would monitor it.
10:32:30 <warlord> Happy Birthday!
10:32:43 <Innomen> Well you may well be right but a different set would step up, hopefully. And thank you :)
10:32:44 <warlord> (I now know 4 people who's b-day is Sep 5)
10:32:57 <Innomen> 4 really awesome no doubt :)
10:33:02 <Innomen> awesome people*
10:33:03 <kimmo> you know Innomen, it would be a wise idea to whip out the pencil and the ledger book with the familiar red-blue lines
10:33:22 <Innomen> kimmo, not remotely, but that's another debate likely to get me kicked :)
10:33:24 <warlord> Maybe.. We've had issues historically with people stepping up. We finally, recently, got a good community on the gncash-user list
10:33:45 <warlord> We don't kick users for things like that, here.
10:34:08 <warlord> but I agree with kimmo that understanding how you would account for something using pen&paper will help you understand how to do it in gnucash.
10:34:09 <kimmo> that's learning by doing. You should really learn accounting, not a single tool
10:34:11 <Innomen> I'm glad gucash exists, but the distantce between reality and education has completely soured me. This is going to be my last class, which is a shame because I'm like 8 credit hours from a (worthless) degree :)
10:34:37 <warlord> since when is knowledge useless?
10:35:15 <Innomen> if I could do it on paper I wouldn't need the app, the whole "understand the basics" argument is seriously flawed. http://www.ted.com/talks/conrad_wolfram_teaching_kids_real_math_with_computers.html <---< for a good explanation of what I mean by that
10:35:55 <kimmo> I can't really say that education is far from reality
10:35:59 <kimmo> except in electronics
10:36:01 <Innomen> http://underlore.com/TBA/?p=2130 knowledge is a trade off, the price of knowledge is the question, and that price is measured in finite life span
10:37:27 <Innomen> kimmo: then you might be shocked by the plummeting value of degrees http://nplusonemag.com/bad-education
10:37:27 <kimmo> it's pretty sad when the prof tells you that this is how a transistor works, in theory, and that no transistors exist that exhibit this kind of behavior
10:37:48 <Innomen> kimmo: as the Internet makes knowledge more and more readily available the distance between research and cheating shrinks. College is at odds with technology in general. (hence the title of my essay on the subject)
10:38:21 <Innomen> this means that class instructors have a strong motivation to make their subject matter distant from readily searchable material, and thus distant from reality
10:39:00 <Innomen> if your instructor and text says transistors behave a certain way and that way is not to be found in reality, then you must go to the instructor and the text for an answer
10:39:16 <Innomen> you can see how that would behoove them :)
10:39:29 <Innomen> as gatekeeps and degree salesmen :)
10:39:47 <Innomen> in any case I'm off to bash my head against split transactions
10:39:55 <Innomen> thanks for your help guys, it's appreciated
10:40:04 <Innomen> I'm sure I'll be back :)
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12:19:31 <fell> Hi warlord.
12:19:37 <warlord> Hey fell.
12:20:11 <fell> Some progress with the antispam extension?
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12:35:46 <warlord> No, and in fact I lost the page because FF died and took all my state with it.
12:39:38 <fell> The start page was http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Combating_spam .
12:41:31 <warlord> thx
12:42:29 <fell> Last we looked at #SpamBlacklist, but if it is too much work, adding ehow.com to $wgSpamRegex [#Edit filtering] would be a first step.
12:51:44 <andy> Hey can I get an opinion from people about a style question?
12:51:58 <andy> (first time here, but been lurking a bit)
12:52:33 <andy> I think I've got a good idea of what assets/liabilities vs income/expenses are
12:53:04 <andy> but I'm wondering whether to arrange all my income accounts under "Income" or to group things by currency instead
12:54:09 <andy> It seems like grouping by currency makes the "Accounts" page more useful, but maybe going by currency makes it easier to do reporting
12:54:26 <andy> since reports will only include one currency
13:11:44 <warlord> andy: I think it's all about how you want to see it.
13:12:11 <andy> I thought someone might say that
13:12:16 <andy> :-(
13:12:42 <andy> I guess really I'm just struggling with reporting
13:13:10 <andy> is it typical to run reports ad-hoc when you want one, or to keep a few reports open all the time that you have already customized?
13:13:31 <warlord> Both.
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20:28:36 <joshua> So... my edit account window is... unfindable.
20:28:56 <joshua> I have hooked up my second monitor and unhooked it several times looking for it.
20:29:00 <joshua> it says it's there.
20:29:05 <joshua> I can see it in alt-tab...
20:29:09 <joshua> I can switch to it...
20:29:12 <joshua> I can USE it by hotkey...
20:29:15 <joshua> but I can't see the window.
20:29:18 <joshua> anywhere.
20:29:22 <joshua> on Windows 7... any ideas?
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21:00:33 <joshua> aha, finally!
21:00:42 <joshua> took changing the options setting from "remember window size and position"
21:01:00 <joshua> it just started happening to me in 2.4.7
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