2011-03-30 GnuCash IRC logs

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00:50:34 <nishmu> Trying to build Cutecash, when I enter the command "cmake .." in my build directory, I get this http://pastebin.com/EmTCtFFj Could not figure out the problem, libxml2 is indeed installed in /usr/lib/libxml2.so.2.7.8 and /usr/lib/libxml2.so.2 Any ideas?
00:59:48 <nishmu> Could not find any clue in the mailing list searches as well.
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02:13:44 <nishmu> ^^ Issue resolved. Needed to install development libraries, libxml2-dev and similarly for many other packages.
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07:36:45 <aregee2> hey is the python module already 've been included in gnucash ??
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08:09:27 <warlord> nishmu: cutecash is a side-project of one developer, CStim. He's not here, and none of the rest of us have tried to use CuteCash.
08:11:52 <nishmu> warlord: hi warlord, thanks. I got it running, it was an issue with dependency. Currently as I see, only a rough draft has been laid out. I am very much interested in developing an enhanced UI.
08:13:47 <nishmu> My idea is that, most of the time spent is used in entering records. The current UI serves very nice to serve a birds eye view of the book. But for regular entry into the system a much compact user friendly system would be great.
08:14:14 * warlord shrugs
08:14:44 <warlord> I dont understand why such a 'friendly' interface can't be added to GnuCash... Why rewrite the entire thing?
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08:21:04 <nishmu> I understand that, but as the idea proposer CStim thinks, even though it might take a rewrite, additional features can be implemented much faster with qt. qt has been a solid library and provides variety of additional tools like Qt translation tools (Linguist). In the end it is just the user interface going on reqrite, the core serves very well to both branches.
08:24:56 <nishmu> On the other hand, I had a question to ask warlord, as I see the current categories like Books, Hobbies etc are hard coded. I see no way of adding custom types. Is such a thing a possible or am I missing something?
08:31:25 <nishmu> Oops my mistake, I misunderstood "Account". Got it.
08:48:33 <warlord> The problem is that the UI contains much much more than just UI. There is lots of "business logic" in the UI.
08:48:45 <warlord> Validating inputs, making sure data invariants get maintained, etc.
08:48:52 <warlord> Also, I thought Nokia was dropping Qt.
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09:01:05 <lost_sou1> it would be nice to have a the option of a more compact UI for use on mobile devices, but IMO having only that smaller UI would be a negative. As you said most of the time people are entering data, using a smaller UI all the time would put strain on the eyes.
09:01:31 <lost_sou1> g'day fell
09:01:41 <lost_sou1> and hello all
09:02:26 <warlord> lost_sou1: I think a mobile-UI is a different beast, and trying to make the main app *also* a mobile app is, IMHO, the wrong approach.
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09:03:51 <lost_sou1> warlord: right, the mobile app should just be able to connect to your central 'gnucash server' so to speak and be used pretty much for a bit of control on the road.. Adding contacts, invoices.. possibly reports
09:04:56 <lost_sou1> I would think thats a ways off tho as to my knowledge their is no way to connect two systems like that currently?
09:05:24 <fell> good mornig/day/evening all together.
09:06:16 <warlord> well, unfortunately there is no "gnucash server"
09:06:24 <warlord> hi fell
09:07:07 <lost_sou1> right, and that would need to be the first step.. hence saying it must be a ways off if you guys are even considering it
09:09:58 <warlord> Not necessarily. You could just consider your mobile to be a transaction-builder; you would 'sync' your account tree to the device and then you would re-sync your new data from the device into gnucash. it doesn't require real-time updating of gnucahs.
09:10:04 <warlord> ... just a way to load in the updates.
09:10:40 <lost_sou1> good point
09:11:32 <lost_sou1> so many great things out there that can be done and so little time to do them.. I feel for you guys.
09:11:42 <nishmu> warlord: About QT dropping out. Its very unlikely, it was only symbian. Actually there are lots of new things being developed on qt front, the new Qt Quick, which is equivalent to Microsoft's WPF. and there are talks and even works on adding android to the platform support. And qt is one of the framework to support the largest of platforms. And even if Qt does drop Qt, its GPL there is whoe massive army of KDE to take a fork off it.
09:13:26 <warlord> Really? From where I sit the users of KDE are shrinking.
09:13:31 <warlord> but whatever.
09:14:11 <nishmu> lost_sou1: Yes, exactly my ideas are to develop a no frills simple front end, which a general user can use withouth know how of the system. But I think apart from mobile, desktop too needs such an interface, since curently there is no OS project which can show off a solid backend like gnucash and an easy to use GUI.
09:15:15 <warlord> nishmu: define "easy to use GUI". Have you mocked up what the UI would look like and how it would behave?
09:17:16 <nishmu> warlord: Yes, I am upto it, and will be shortly posting on dev list. Its based on my fathers past 20 years hard coded double entry book logging.
09:18:45 <warlord> because clearly if it was designed and working 20 years ago it must be the way to do it today! ;-)
09:19:06 <nishmu> warlord: about kde, In my opinion I dont think so. Since I am myself involed in it recently I am thinking myself as an addition to KDE base. :) well it would be intereting if there are any officail news or gossips about the kde arena shrinking
09:19:57 <nishmu> warlord: Yes, he still uses the same system , its awesomely simple to look at and use.
09:21:07 <nishmu> When I enterd CS in college I always thought f designing a software like that, but could not come up with a solid backend until I came up here.
09:21:26 <nishmu> And that is the same reson why I have intentions of a new GUI in qt.
09:21:40 <nishmu> Instead of modiying aexisting one
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09:22:29 <warlord> Except that CuteCash isn't a fully operating application. It does not have all the features of GnuCash.
09:23:01 <warlord> Also, there's no reason you can't design your super-spiffy UI in glade instead of Qt's equivalent.
09:23:37 <warlord> Indeed, a well-designed UI should be UI-toolkit-agnostic.
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09:24:15 <nishmu> Yes as I see it there is currently no useable fucntionality done in it. But since you definitely might be having an insight on the codebase, is it a diffcult task to link with the backend?
09:24:37 <warlord> It depends what you want to do.
09:24:52 <warlord> There's a well-defined C API to interact with the underlying data
09:25:27 <nishmu> Well, I a have not got into other tolkits other than qt, so I definitely need to compare them, any pointers on glade which might be helpful
09:26:20 <warlord> glade is the Gtk ui creator.
09:27:17 <nishmu> yes, but I am currently looking to a comparison review on glade and qt.
09:27:33 <nishmu> So i thought you could bring up some points in favour of glade
09:27:34 <warlord> This is not the forum for those comparisons.
09:27:59 <nishmu> Alright I will look into google.
09:29:11 <warlord> I'm just saying that when you design this super-spiffy UI, don't plan on a particular toolkit. Just design the UI. I'm interested in seeing a picture of what you have in mind, and I'm curious how you can simplify operations.
09:29:21 <warlord> er, how you THINK you can simplify operations.
09:29:55 <warlord> (I admit that there are many operations that can indeed be simplified, but the simple "enter a transaction" is about as simple as you can make it -- especially with the 'create transaction' dialog)
09:32:01 <nishmu> Ok i will try to explain a rough idea, since I need some more time ( like a day) to post on the dev list.
09:32:37 <nishmu> Yest currently we have to open create transaction dialog only after choosing a particular account.
09:32:48 <warlord> It's okay, take your time -- I'll read it on the dev list.
09:33:09 <warlord> nishmu: no, you dont need to choose an account before opening the dialog.
09:33:27 <warlord> from the chart of accounts, hit Control-T
09:33:54 <warlord> Then you can choose the source and destination accounts for the transaction in the transfer window.
09:36:00 <nishmu> Yes that does solve the inital hindance of selecting a account. My next idea was to procide an instant report view based on Date > Account > Item, in the decreasing order.
09:36:17 <nishmu> That is how the log books of my father are ordered.
09:37:13 <warlord> Sorry, I dont understand the report request.
09:37:34 <warlord> It sounds like a GL or GJ report?
09:37:48 <nishmu> Yes i understand. I will create a prototype.
09:37:57 <nishmu> Sure I will look into that.
09:38:15 <nishmu> Any approriate links?
09:39:29 <warlord> GnuCash already have GL and GJ reports under Reports -> A & L
09:39:35 <warlord> Do neither of them suit your needs?
09:42:01 <nishmu> warlord: For some reason it says "Report error: An error occurred while running the report.". I have a basic dummy data imported.
09:42:50 <warlord> What's printed in gnucash.trace?
09:44:16 <nishmu> Sorry I did not get that, anyway I closed and opened the app, and choosing the db file again. I got GJ output.
09:45:05 <nishmu> Yes indeed its very similar. Is it only a static report,
09:45:51 <warlord> What do you mean, "static report"?
09:46:33 <nishmu> Like we can implement som interactive report. Like to make a particular item clickable so that the past records or stats can be displayed for it on a pop up
09:46:48 <nishmu> s/some kind of interactive report
09:47:24 <warlord> Hmm, that report seems to have hung my GnuCash!
09:47:47 <warlord> Most reports are interactive to some extent. Often you can click on the account to open up the account register..
09:48:41 <warlord> You just need to add the associated link back to the gnucash data object.
09:48:47 <nishmu> Yes, sometimes mines too seem to be non responsive. Well yes eaxctly, currently I see only the price is clickable which opens up in new window
09:49:31 <warlord> That's a minor change to the report to make other items clickable.
09:49:34 <nishmu> I would like to implement same thing for item names, so say if that item is Tomato, when clicked would bring up a pop up or graph with price ranges for it in the past
09:50:51 <warlord> That would generally require Scheme hacking
09:51:20 <nishmu> And use the power of accounts to say for example one account is say "Free Market" another one "Wallmart", we buy tomatoes on both these places, so whn tomato is clicked we can popup statisc with two lines in graph with thier prices
09:51:49 <nishmu> I was thinking of implementing those by using the db through qt charintg system
09:52:10 <warlord> Why? That's a lot more work than you need.
09:53:34 <warlord> Reporting can all be done in Scheme in the current app; no report-writing necessary.
09:53:44 <warlord> And Gnucash trunk just added javascript plotting.
09:55:05 <nishmu> Hmm I see, I was of the opinion that GUI can be controlled integrated and handled more easily through qt.
09:56:11 <warlord> Well, you'd be wrong
09:56:43 <warlord> Ah, my GJ report finally finished rendering.
09:59:35 <nishmu> It was nice talking to you warlord, I will be reviewing my ideas and think of how o contribute to the project. Btw did I tell I am participating through gsoc. Any other inputs you would want me to look?
10:00:22 <warlord> I dunno. as you can tell I am not a proponent of CuteCash.
10:00:43 <warlord> But think about what you'd like to do and think through your ideas.
10:03:40 <nishmu> Well basically I have burning desire to turn my fathers book logging idea and integrate and introduce it into this project as beginner's general user accouting system with all complex things taken out.
10:04:41 <jsled> what complex things?
10:04:54 <warlord> right, what complex things?
10:05:29 <jsled> if anything, gnucash isn't complex enough. it's too simple. There are plenty of overly-complicated things in the UI, though, I'd agree ;)
10:06:07 <nishmu> Like when a user first sees the application it should basically be as simple to use an iphone app, but handle all complex stuff in background. This is generally aimed at improving UI
10:06:22 <nishmu> jsled: yes on th ui front.
10:06:53 <warlord> I think the iPhone is *too* simple, it makes it REALLY REALLY hard to anything more complicated than the most simple of actions.
10:07:05 <warlord> (and that's NOT a good thing)
10:09:00 <jsled> nishmu: here's something to think about: over the years, helping people in here, I think it would reduce user confusion if the registers defaulted to "auto-split" ledger mode rather than "Basic", since the former makes double-entry more explicit, and the latter effectively hides this core concept about how gnucash works.
10:09:44 <nishmu> I actualy did it mean it straight away, forget above functioanlity of it, but only take the user friendliness. Basically stick to Apple's principle --> Give user access to what a basic user needs to unlike linux.
10:09:47 <jsled> some might argue that exposing double-entry is "complex". but until you grok it, your going to *misuse* gnucash.
10:10:16 <nishmu> jsled: sure I would look into it
10:11:01 <jsled> anyways, gotta work; good luck!
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19:26:43 <ovca> Hi! Just wondered if the summer of code applications are still on for the gnucash project?
19:27:02 <warlord> I believe they are.
19:27:10 <warlord> (unless GSoC has closed the window)
19:27:14 <ovca> I'm interested in the CUTECASH project to be exact
19:27:33 <ovca> ne the havent, ut i'm just wondering if slots are already taken :)
19:27:48 <warlord> That I couldnt' tell you.
19:28:03 * warlord wonders why so many people are interested in cutecash!
19:28:25 * warlord would think people would rather work on an actual product rather than a side-projct.
19:28:36 <ovca> Well Qt is cool
19:29:45 <ovca> Well yes i would but cutecash seems interesting at first sight.
19:30:32 <ovca> I've been using it for aa few months and actually that's one of the first things that came to my mind
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19:30:42 <ovca> What are your suggestions?
19:35:17 <warlord> You've been using cutecash?
19:36:06 <ovca> No, just gnucash
19:36:11 <warlord> Ah.
19:36:25 <ovca> Just trying to compilecutecash
19:36:36 * warlord has never tried.
19:36:43 <hypatia> hey does anyone have a preferred way to track expenses on android and export to gnucash?
19:37:13 <warlord> hypatia: sorry, not i. I just collect the receipts in my pocket and enter them when I get home.
19:38:01 <hypatia> warlord: that's what i do now, i guess i should just start getting receipts for petty-cash things
19:38:14 <hypatia> so i can track those, even if i don't keep the receipts
19:38:30 <hypatia> (keep the receipts once they are tracked, that is)
19:38:49 <warlord> Right. I often toss the receipts after I enter them
19:38:51 <hypatia> there seem to be a couple of android apps that will do qif exports, but it's not really clear to me how to go from there to reconciling them with gnucash
19:40:23 <hypatia> i am actually kinda looking forward to learning a new language to generate reports!
19:40:27 * hypatia is probably kinda weird.
19:48:46 <hypatia> hah, or i'll just figure out that i can do what i need to with the report's options :D
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19:54:08 <ovca> Has tried cutecash, not much to see there. Lot of work to do
19:54:33 <ovca> Sounds like a challenge
20:01:29 <warlord> ovca: like I said, it's a side project, not a real product... and I doubt it will ever be one. it was a proof of concept.
20:04:38 <warlord> hypatia: QIF import should be okay.. you just need to be wary of duplicates
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20:08:59 <hypatia> warlord: should i just name the accounts the same in the app, do you think?
20:09:16 <warlord> yea
20:09:43 <hypatia> kewl
20:09:44 <hypatia> thanks!
20:09:59 <hypatia> learning gnucash made doing my taxes quite pleasant this year
20:10:06 <hypatia> so, thanks everyone!
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22:01:32 <hypatia> is there any way to modify the default search?
22:01:41 <hypatia> i'd like it to search within descriptions or memos
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22:15:49 <warlord> hypatia: add a second criteria
22:18:01 <hypatia> warlord: can i make that default?
22:18:14 <warlord> no
22:18:22 <hypatia> :(
22:19:15 <warlord> patches always welcome
22:19:30 <warlord> but no, there is no way to set a default search
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22:44:43 <hypatia> warlord-afk: i am interested in contributing, do you think that would be a tricky patch?
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23:38:00 <marti1125> Hi :D!!
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23:40:52 <marti1125> google gsoc? mentor?
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23:58:31 <marti1125> how to build gnucash ?
23:59:06 <hypatia> marti1125: have you looked at the "building gnucash" page yet?
23:59:15 <marti1125> yes :D
23:59:15 <marti1125> hehehe
23:59:20 <marti1125> with git
23:59:23 <hypatia> where are you running into trouble?
23:59:50 <marti1125> no problem