2011-02-26 GnuCash IRC logs

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07:01:26 <EsdiDude> Good morning people
07:04:35 <EsdiDude> I'm currently implementing gnucash for my own personal finances, and I'm a little confused by the 'equitities' account. Currently, I have the stock which I have bought booked as a transfer from my equitities. But I strongly suspect that that's a wrong setup. As I just read that equities should only contain opening balances in gnucash. Is my assumption in such correct?
07:09:00 <EsdiDude> For completeness, I think that the transfer should have been against a bank account representing "current asset". Though, now I'm also wondering how those two would reconcile given that the opening balance is ofcourse per accounting period.
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07:48:21 <warlord> Antisoche: it probably should, yes....
07:48:31 <warlord> Did you enter them as splits?
07:49:32 <warlord> EsdiDude: you should only use Equity accounts for initial setup. After that all transfers should be between Asset, Liability, Income, and Expense accounts.
07:56:29 <EsdiDude> warlord, thank you for the confirmation.
07:56:40 <warlord> you're welcome
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09:17:19 <Antisoche> Does GC 2.4 allow setting tax information against Assets ?
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09:36:25 <warlord> Antisoche: not sure what you mean
09:36:50 <Antisoche> Hi warlord.
09:37:29 <Antisoche> I have foreign assets (a CD) that requires me to file a TD F 90-22.1, but when I go into the Tax Information I can only apply codes (TXF) to Income and Expenses.
09:39:01 <Antisoche> It's not really a big deal either way, but it's important that I not forget it.
09:39:50 <Antisoche> More important to me right now - I can't get my bank info from ETrade using AqBanking. It'll pull up my stock account, but not my banking. Any ideas?
09:42:33 <warlord> Ah, no, gnucash still only does TXF
09:42:52 <warlord> Nope, sorry. I don't use AqB for anything.
09:43:55 <Antisoche> Ah, TXF is a Quicken thing I see.
09:45:32 <warlord> technically i think it's a "taxcut" thing.
09:45:43 <warlord> (for US 1040 filings)
09:46:00 <Antisoche> I just wanted to see a form name in the "Tax Info" column on the accounts page
09:46:47 <Antisoche> I think it's TurboTax - maybe I meant to say Intuit. (http://turbotax.intuit.com/txf/index.jsp)
09:47:27 <warlord> ah, yeah, could be turbotax.
09:47:32 * warlord doesn't use that, either.
09:48:07 <Antisoche> Intuit also does Quicken/Quickbooks, and nor do I :p
09:48:48 <warlord> yeah, i knew that.
09:49:42 <Antisoche> But AqB .... nothing?
09:50:03 <warlord> Ask on the -user list?
09:50:15 <warlord> @op linas
09:50:15 <gncbot> warlord: Error: You don't have the #gnucash,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
09:50:29 <warlord> @op linas
09:50:30 *** gncbot sets mode: +o linas
09:50:34 <linas> ola
09:50:38 <warlord> hiya linas
09:50:50 <warlord> howzit?
09:51:02 <linas> reading email .. as usual ..
09:51:21 <warlord> Heh. I only had 6500 messages waiting for me after being offline 3 weeks.
09:51:31 <linas> the ibm watson jeopardy game has my corner of the universe abuzz
09:51:59 <warlord> i'm sure.. i heard watson did well
09:55:48 <warlord> i just bought a house yesterday.
09:56:09 <warlord> Now I get to have fun remodeling and designing my cable runs.
09:58:52 <Antisoche> Hmm. Whatever was happening last night stopped. AqB was crashing when I tried to get (refresh) an account list, now it's happy happy.
09:59:19 <Antisoche> Still not quite where I need to be, but off to the google ...
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10:06:12 <warlord> okay, have fun Antisoche
10:06:46 <Antisoche> This is far too difficult :(
10:07:00 <warlord> AqB5 should make it easier..
10:07:58 * Antisoche hopes
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10:14:17 <Antisoche> "E*TRADE banking accounts do not support direct download, regardless of your software (Quicken, MSMoney, iBank, etc). These must be downloaded from the website."
10:14:27 <Antisoche> http://forums.iggsoft.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4433&p=22051
10:14:44 <Antisoche> bah :(
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10:26:10 <warlord> there you go.
10:31:10 <EsdiDude> Entering split transactions is a real pain if you're not familiar with it.
10:32:07 <EsdiDude> On the proper side; I just figured out I paid 10,98 euro commission
10:32:10 <warlord> EsdiDude: doing anything in life is a real pain if you're not familiar with it.
10:32:25 <warlord> once you get familiar with it, it's really simple.
10:33:38 <EsdiDude> So far I'm very happy with GNUcash. Imported 5 years of bankstatements using a csv to qif perl proggy I hacked together. Definitly gives alot of insight.
10:35:10 <Silly> ♥ gnucash
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10:44:24 <Antisoche> EsdiDude: I find the account "View -> Autosplit" to be the easiest way to understand things. Unfortunately, the column labels don't always make sense then.
10:46:18 <warlord> anyways, i gotta run.. have a great day all
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10:46:30 <EsdiDude> laters Warlord
10:46:41 <EsdiDude> Antisoche, nice feature! Have to remember that one
10:47:26 <Antisoche> It's also Edit -> Preferences -> Register Defaults
10:48:59 <EsdiDude> and that's also set to default autosplit now! Thanks for that
10:56:10 <Antisoche> Sure thing. Perhaps one day you can repay me with a sane online baking interface :-/
10:56:26 <Antisoche> Or online banking. I'll accept either.
11:01:41 <EsdiDude> ah, but banks are all small kingdoms. Imagine them providing more then a simple csv!
11:03:04 <EsdiDude> To be honest, I expected that the small broker companies would provide proper bank interfaces, given the fact that the interface itself already exist. They just need to implement it.
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11:06:50 <EsdiDude> Question, when entering a stock sale (for instance), do I always need to calculate the gain I made manually? (which I am doing now)
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11:08:41 <EsdiDude> E.g. I enter the net credited amount, the price sold and the volume. Which results in a proper imbalance, which goes to the brokerage commission account. At that moment everything is nicely balanced and I need to manually enter the profit / loss for capital gains.
11:19:46 <Antisoche> I haven't gotten quite that far yet, but when you do the same you want to debit the stock account and credit an account like Income:Stocks
11:20:09 <Antisoche> Anything going into Imbalance is an error, aiui
11:21:04 <Antisoche> Also, don't forget to add your brokerage fees, which I am putting into Expenses:Commissions
11:21:18 <Antisoche> Not sure if that's ideal just yet, but I'm only starting down that road
11:21:47 <Antisoche> If you look at Reports-> Assets & Liabilities -> Advanced Portfolio it should all add up.
11:22:10 <Antisoche> EsdiDude: What brokerage do you use?
11:22:18 * Antisoche is fighting with OFX ATM
11:23:22 <jsled> Antisoche: in what way are the column labels any different with autosplit?
11:23:29 <Antisoche> (I'm actually not too sure what's going on yet ... I'm showing a realized gain of -$0.12 with my 1 stock ...)
11:24:39 <Antisoche> jsled: When I put the associated transaction fee in my stock purchase, according to the column label, the fee is a "Sale" to the commissions expense and a "Buy" from the Stock Asset
11:25:36 <Antisoche> jsled: I think for me, "Debit" and "Credit" simply makes more sense. Putting "user-friendly" labels confuses me. I enter all transactions in autosplit mode.
11:42:12 <Antisoche> "Advanced Portfolio" doesn't seem to work correctly in 2.2.9. Is this a known issue? I'm seeing some discussion about it in earlier 2.2 series.
11:44:16 <Antisoche> It's broken in that I have 50 shares bought at 9.0625, total $453.12 -- GNC insists I bought them at 9.0624, but ok -- the report appears to believe I bought 50 at $9.06 and 50*$0.0025 (=$0.12) is realized loss.
11:45:20 <EsdiDude> Antisoche, what exactly do you mean with the brokerage?
11:45:56 <Antisoche> EsdiDude: I buy stock through E*Trade and was wondering what you use. Or are you just entering everything by hand?
11:46:24 <EsdiDude> I'm entering everything by hand.
11:46:41 <Antisoche> Yeah, that's what I don't want to do =)
11:47:02 <EsdiDude> Basically my broker send me an email with the details and I put them in. It's a very very low volume email account ;-)
11:47:36 <EsdiDude> Truth be told be, it did take me several hours to work through the backlog of the past 5 years.
11:47:45 <EsdiDude> Should have started using gnucash earlier :-D
11:47:55 <Antisoche> I feel the same way.
11:48:28 <Antisoche> My problem is a lack of discipline. I start and stop, and things get backed up and I get frustrated at all the work, blah blah blah.
11:48:59 <EsdiDude> heh. I recognize that somewhere
11:49:43 <EsdiDude> In all honesty, I think the added value of gnucash (for me, personally) would be a lot less if I couldnt download my bankstatements and convert them to qif
11:50:01 <EsdiDude> The stock is basically there to complete the picture.
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11:51:53 <Antisoche> I started doing work independently, so I simply have to start doing something. I've been good tracking the business side, and I really don't want to file my taxes, so I've been goofing off getting the other side setup.
11:52:02 <Antisoche> :-\
11:52:46 <Antisoche> The biggest pain, incidentally, is tracking my basis on the stocks.
11:53:01 <EsdiDude> your basis?
11:53:53 <Antisoche> I only sold one last year, but I had it in a DRIP and bought it so long ago that I realized I've started losing old records on other, so ...
11:55:26 <Antisoche> What is cost me to buy it.
11:56:05 <EsdiDude> and a DRIP would be?
11:56:12 <Antisoche> = purchase price, plus fees, plus reinvested dividends. And while most of it is long-term, some dividend payouts were short-term.
11:56:32 <EsdiDude> quarterly dividend is always nice
11:56:36 <Antisoche> DRIP = Dividend ReInvestment Program
11:56:43 <EsdiDude> ah
11:56:56 <EsdiDude> you're basically after the same info I am :-)
11:56:59 <Antisoche> So instead of getting cash, I get more stock and don't have to pay a fee. Compounding effects !
11:57:39 <Antisoche> But the downside is that my basis is constantly adjusting
11:58:12 <Antisoche> And I have to pay taxes on the dividends and don't actually get any cash. :)
11:58:45 <EsdiDude> You have to pay the tax on the dividend? But not if they're in stock, right?
11:58:52 <EsdiDude> well, ofcourse it can depend per country.
11:58:54 <Antisoche> I don't know why I smiled at that. :)
11:59:48 <EsdiDude> Here I pay a certain % -not even sure how much- on the dividend I received. But if I get stockdividend, it just gets added onto the stockpile.
12:00:04 <Antisoche> In the U.S. dividends are taxable. You're taxed on value, not cash, so yeah, even in situations of barter you're legally obliged to pay tax on the fair market value of the income producing trade.
12:00:10 <EsdiDude> Ofcourse, if I were to sell the stock, I make money, and that would be income and henceforth taxed.
12:00:42 <Antisoche> The U.S. tax system is something of a nightmare.
12:01:48 <Antisoche> Yeah, stock gains are taxed at one rate (currently 15%) but the dividend portion is taxed at your income rate (typically 25%, but anywhere from 10% to 35% based on income levels).
12:02:14 <Antisoche> They take the money upfront, and you add that to the cost of acquiring additional stock.
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12:03:08 <GitHub96> gnucash: master Geert Janssens * be16320 (40 files in 12 dirs): Update gtk include headers to follow gtk recommendations (only include gtk/gtk.h)
12:03:10 <GitHub96> gnucash: master Christian Stimming * 52d0c93 (8 files in 7 dirs): Re-indentation of source code. ...
12:03:13 <GitHub96> gnucash: master Geert Janssens * f44b2d6 (1 files in 1 dirs): Only show the Save As dialog at the end of the Hierarchy druid if it ...
12:03:16 <GitHub96> gnucash: master commits 869af68...f44b2d6 - http://bit.ly/fm2eNT
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12:03:36 <EsdiDude> same policy here.
12:04:10 <EsdiDude> According to the wiki: In the Netherlands there is a tax of 15% on dividends. There's also a tax of 1.2% per year on the value of the share, regardless of the dividend, as part of the flat tax on savings and investments.
12:04:28 <EsdiDude> mmm, come to think of it
12:04:29 <EsdiDude> that sucks.
12:04:51 <Antisoche> Okay, so if you're paying taxes on your stock dividend, you subtract that amount from your basis since you've already been taxed on it. (here)
12:04:53 <EsdiDude> As most of my shares didnt give me any divident whatsoever due to the crisis.
12:05:09 <Antisoche> Ahh - you guys have a "wealth tax".
12:05:21 <Antisoche> We just print more money :)
12:05:22 <EsdiDude> taxes in .nl are a bitch.
12:05:39 <EsdiDude> Income taxes are very very steep in comparison to countries around us.
12:06:16 <Antisoche> I just read an article about taxes and entrpreneurship in Norway.
12:06:55 <Antisoche> It basically says that the people in the US screaming for lower taxes to spur business is bunk.
12:07:49 <Antisoche> ... but whatever. The fiat currency game will come to an end sooner or later.
12:08:40 <EsdiDude> I'm not sure what the tax rates are in .us. In .nl the highest box (everything above 54kish) is 52%
12:09:57 <Antisoche> Top rate here is 35% (over 373k). Obama wanted to raise it to 33.9% over 250k and there were virtual riots. http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
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12:10:24 <Antisoche> Sorry - 39.6%
12:10:49 <EsdiDude> pffft, if I would have made 250k a year, why bother about the 4,6 % ?
12:11:22 <Antisoche> The argument was that this also applies to incomes of small businesses. So the extra 5% is someone's job.
12:11:47 <Antisoche> But I say that's complete BS because wages are an expense and if they don't want to pay 5%, hire someone!
12:11:59 <Antisoche> But people over here don't really like to think.
12:12:41 <Antisoche> it's annoying ...
12:12:58 <EsdiDude> ah, who knows what the future will bring
12:13:24 <Antisoche> I have my suspicions :)
12:16:27 <Antisoche> Are you using 2.2.x or 2.4 ?
12:26:21 <Antisoche> Aha - GNC/Advanced Portfolio isn't quite broken. My cost basis is really $453.125, which GNC won't let me enter.
12:28:07 * Antisoche 's brain hurts
12:33:50 <EsdiDude> 2.2.x, ubuntu package
12:37:43 <Antisoche> Me too. The report is just a script but it appears to be working fine. There was a 2-1 split in 2000; if I sold off half of my holdings I could have ended up in this mess. Not sure exactly what's happened though.
12:43:14 <EsdiDude> maybe the stock crashed. Had that myself as well. I ended up stopping entering the facts and just entered the actual worth.
12:43:32 <EsdiDude> complete disaster. reverse split, sell off of the fractions, commission on that, revaluation.
12:43:49 <EsdiDude> heck. I think I should be happy that they're still not completely bankrupt.
12:43:59 <Antisoche> I've had that with others, but this is something I still own. It's just that the oldest record of it I have has me paying 1/2 cent for it.
12:44:14 <EsdiDude> wow. 1/2 cent per stock
12:44:24 <EsdiDude> thats interesting if you want to speculate
12:44:48 <Antisoche> Well ... if you take the cost per share and the total shares, the total amount is $xxx.xx5
12:45:13 <Antisoche> Which I clearly could never have paid since we don't deal in half-pennies.
12:45:31 <Antisoche> But the stock split, and if I sold half, my basis could end up with a 1/2 cent transaction at the end
12:46:11 <EsdiDude> so the broker probably either sold a fraction, or bunch up yours with another transaction and ended up with 1/2 a penny
12:46:22 <EsdiDude> s/bunch/bunched
12:46:31 <Antisoche> The thing is, bumping my basis up gives me realied gains of -$0.13 instead of -$0.12 so something else is still screwey.
12:47:37 <Antisoche> Not really - say I paid $9.99 for 25 shares. A 2-1 split gives me 50 shares. Then I sell 25 of those 50 shares - my remaining basis is $4.995
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13:58:06 <dbueno> quick question: what should the final date of a check be? it seems that if you use the date the check was written, rather than when it was cashed, you can't properly reconcile your bank account with gnucash
13:59:14 <dbueno> similarly for other transactions: do you put in the date you bought something (i.e. when I was at office depot) or the date it posted to the acct?
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14:06:55 <Antisoche> I use the date I consider it spent (or deposited).
14:07:27 <Antisoche> If you're trying to doublecheck your bank's interest calculations, this will obviously cause problems.
14:07:58 <Antisoche> What would you do if you made a depost and the bank held 60% of it back?
14:16:13 <dbueno> so, when I reconcile the starting balance is not the one on the statement
14:16:49 <dbueno> so I can enter the ending balance from the statement, but some of the checks I wrote during that period weren't cashed till later, so I can't finish that statement's reconciliation. there's still a differenc.
14:17:02 <dbueno> would that difference be due to something else, and I'm just misunderstanding it?
14:24:19 <Antisoche> My understanding of reconsiliation is simply that you and your statements agree. The time period isn't of any great significance.
14:26:15 <dbueno> k, maybe it's that I don't really know why my records and statement disagree
14:26:40 <dbueno> I mean, my records have all the stuff from the statements (plus more which haven't posted) but I can't convince gnucash to accept that
14:27:50 <dbueno> the only difference from the statements is the dates of things, because I record the dates I presented my card, or wrote the check; not the date the transaction posted
14:28:43 <Antisoche> What report are you comparing your statements against?
14:37:06 <Antisoche> How about this for an example: You have to pay taxes (in the U.S.) by April 15. What that means is that the postmark on the envelope must be April 15 or earlier (holidays excepted). Do you want your records to show that you paid on time or do you want them to show when the IRS cashed your check when you present them to the IRS auditor?
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15:06:27 <dbueno> I'd much rather record when I wrote the check and mailed it.
15:08:41 <dbueno> I was puzzled because my reconciliation didn't work (I'm using the reconciliation window for my checking account); but it must have been some other problem
15:16:07 <dbueno> Okay, so, the reconciled balance and the ending balance differ by <$10, but do not differ by the amount of any unreconciled transaction. I guess that means I probably recorded one of the transactions wrong?
15:17:34 <dbueno> ... or didn't record a transaction. I think I found it.
15:20:12 <dbueno> I found it. I'd recorded one thing twice on two different dates and forgotten to record another thing. Hence my confusion. I'm still new to gnucash. Thanks for the help!
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