2011-01-19 GnuCash IRC logs
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08:43:22 <slidesinger1> Hi. Trying to show the job the invoice is assigned to on a customer invoice. Is there a way to do this? (Not in the invoice options.)
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09:34:18 <indigo> so, who's the expert on the reporting system?
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09:54:25 <warlord> slidesinger: the invoice should have a "reference" that's the Job ID
09:54:38 <warlord> indigo: I dont think we have one, per se.
09:55:01 <indigo> harumph.
09:57:05 <indigo> uhhh
09:57:09 <indigo> shouldn't configure create a makefile?
09:58:33 <indigo> weird. it didn't make one the first time through.
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10:01:50 <warlord> indigo: it will make it from makefile.in
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10:23:28 <indigo> if i've been running 2.2.9, will running 2.4.0 alter anything (in ~/.gnucash, maybe) that would prevent my going back to 2.2.9?
10:25:56 <warlord> The XML data file should still be compatible.
10:26:04 <warlord> If you close all your reports you should be fine.
10:41:38 <gjanssens> indigo: The report format has changed slightly.
10:41:58 <gjanssens> 2.4.0 will make a copy of your saved-reports file and convert that copy to 2.4 format
10:42:33 <gjanssens> if you have open reports when you close your file in 2.4, those open reports will be saved in 2.4 format
10:42:50 <gjanssens> opening that file in 2.2.9 will cause some of the report parameters to reset to default
10:43:11 <gjanssens> That's the only issue I know of.
10:43:35 <indigo> fair enough
10:43:44 <indigo> i don't much use saved reports
10:44:37 <indigo> can the postgresql backend use a unix socket to connect?
10:50:28 <indigo> what's this "Error: xaccOpenLog(): cannot open journal" "13 Permission denied" i see on my console? related to the psql backend?
10:50:39 <gjanssens> I don't think so. There's no interface to configure that. The connection dialog asks for a hostname, not a socket
10:52:40 <gjanssens> Not sure about the error. I don't get it.
10:53:34 <gjanssens> On the other hand, I do get some transaction logs in unexpected places, which I suppose are what you would get as well when the system had write permission
10:54:08 <gjanssens> Perhaps you should ask on the mailing list. Phil is the expert for the sql backends.
10:59:09 <indigo> huh.
10:59:30 <indigo> yeah, i'm playing with it for the first time now, and it kinda looks like it queries the database just once and loads everything
11:00:34 <indigo> that's a bit odd.
11:00:46 <jsled> indigo: gnucash doesn't use a database as a database.
11:01:07 <indigo> why use a database, then?
11:01:34 <jsled> it's a long story.
11:01:39 <jsled> in short:
11:03:24 <jsled> it doesn't. but having the data represented relationally is incrementally better than xml
11:03:33 <jsled> and there's room to grow into using the DB more properly
11:04:39 <jsled> but for ages the core app used the xml backend to load the whole object graph into memory, and save it back out when asked.
11:05:15 <jsled> and while QOF did always want its object queries to be reducible to SQL, that doesn't actually happen
11:06:50 <indigo> well, shoot.
11:07:49 <indigo> i was a dba in a past life; i'd really like to see a proper database implementation for gnucash
11:08:50 <jsled> making the app be more explicitly query-based would be a good place to start.
11:09:48 <indigo> that sounds like a deep hole in which for me to jump :)
11:12:56 <indigo> i think moving the storage backend to just postgresql would enable quite a lot, but continuing to support other storage backends as diverse as xml means some comprimise, and that generality comes at a cost
11:19:36 <warlord> indigo: true.
11:20:01 <warlord> but the sql backends are too new. The xml backend has 10+ years of testing and usage. The SQL backends have 0.
11:20:21 <warlord> Hopefully for 2.6 we can switch to SQLite as the primary (default) backend..
11:20:33 <warlord> And then in 2.8 we can make the system more "DB-like"
11:23:54 <indigo> i'm reluctant to say that sqlite is a good thing
11:24:20 <indigo> on one hand, it's easy to distribute, and it's nice that it makes just one file, and you can say, "here is your data"
11:25:03 <indigo> on the other hand, it lacks some pretty basic relational database features, and it's horribly slow.
11:28:01 <indigo> maybe the relational model of gnucash is simple enough those won't become issues
11:28:46 <warlord> SQLite is a good thing specifically because it's easy to distribute, it stores your data in a single file, but it still allows us to perform the "immediate commit".
11:29:03 <warlord> That's exactly what we need for a direct replacement of the XML backend.
11:29:12 <indigo> yeah
11:29:57 <indigo> i've started at least two projects thinking sqlite would be great, then abandoned it for postgresql
11:30:22 <indigo> the reason is some combination of poor performance, and an inability of sqlite to guarantee data integrity
11:30:57 <indigo> it looks like it support foreign keys now, which is great
11:32:22 <indigo> maybe most of my issues have been addressed.
11:33:16 <indigo> the performance issues were in part due to the relative simplicity of sqlite's query planner, coupled with really, really slow sequential scans (which is compounded by its poor query planner)
11:34:37 <warlord> Yes, but it simplifies installation for a mom&pop running GnUCash on Windows.
11:34:39 <indigo> i think those performance issues tend to not be noticed until one realized, "hey, i have a relational database now, and i can make complex queries"
11:35:36 <indigo> maybe. I know it's not impossible to bundle postgresql with an application, and have its presence be totally unnoticed.
11:35:56 <indigo> also, postgresql would pretty much get you multi-user support for free.
11:36:11 <jsled> not the way that gnucash handles the data
11:36:15 <warlord> It's certainly not for free...
11:36:16 <indigo> well, right.
11:36:19 <warlord> GnuCash is not a DB App
11:36:38 <indigo> but it sounds like it wants to be one
11:36:40 <warlord> If GnuCash *were* a DB App then *any* of the SQL backends would give us multi-user
11:36:50 <warlord> No, some subset of users want it to be one.
11:36:56 <indigo> sqlite doesn't really do multi-user
11:38:16 <indigo> what it does is allow multiple processes to open the same file, but it requires that you somehow make that file accessible (network filesystem or whatnot)
11:38:31 <warlord> Sure.
11:38:49 <indigo> and it's concurrency model is based on an exclusive lock, which works great until someone is taking a while to enter some data, or worse, someone's app crashes
11:39:22 <indigo> also, since it runs in the same process as the application, an errant write in memory in gnucash can seriously corrupt the database
11:45:50 * mishehu prefers to stick with even mysql over sqlite.
11:46:37 <indigo> well with mysql you don't get the ease of sqlite or the features of postgres
11:47:07 <indigo> and that's all i'll say about that
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11:49:37 <warlord> Well, I need to head to the office..
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12:23:03 <warlord> okay, back
12:26:00 <indigo> do you know something about the new trading accounts feature
12:26:40 <indigo> firstly, is there a way to populate it with transaction i made before that feature existed
12:27:12 <indigo> secondly, a positive trading balance means an unrealized gain or a loss?
12:37:20 <pcroque> indigo: I think if you check the 'use trading accounts' and then 'Check and Repair All Accounts' it changes the old transactions to use the trading accounts.
12:37:34 <pcroque> indigo: But backup before trying it.
12:37:59 <pcroque> I'm no expert.
12:41:46 <indigo> ah, you are right
12:43:14 <pcroque> As for your second question: I don't know. I just know that it's the first time my balance sheet has balanced in years.
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12:47:18 <indigo> huh. which balance sheet report do you use?
12:47:50 <indigo> mine looks all screwy, like "total assets: $" (no total, just a $)
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12:49:17 <mishehu> indigo: if by "ease of sqlite" you mean those exact problems with concurrency then I think I can pass on that. :-)
12:49:55 <pcroque> indigo: Yes...mine too...until I change the option in the commodity price source to 'Nearest in Time'.
13:01:34 <warlord> Honestly, the benefits of SQLite are: 1) It stores its data in a single file, and 2) we get the benefits of immediate-commit. It's purely there as a replacement for the XML backend, and lets us re-use much of the same code that will eventually let us do multi-user.
13:01:56 <warlord> Of course, multi-user should use a real DB like MySQL or PG. But having SQLite there for single-user use is a GOOD THING.
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14:38:56 <urgusabic> hey guys, I just upgraded from 2.2.9 to 2.4.0 on Mac (Intel), and everything is in Japanese, any ideas?
14:41:35 <warlord> urgusabic: Play around with your languages list in the system settings.
14:41:56 <warlord> You might need to find the correct "English" setting in your ordered list.
14:47:41 <urgusabic> warlord: thanks! moving "English" above "British English" seems to have fixed it
14:48:02 <urgusabic> any idea why? is there just no language pack for British English?
14:50:03 <warlord> Correct.
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15:15:15 <urgusabic> is there a way to convert the old style XML file to SQLite3? maybe by exporting the accounts (I tried that, but it just created an empty SQLite3 file)
15:15:36 <jsled> File > Save As..., I understand
15:17:10 <urgusabic> d'oh, of course! :)
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16:04:24 <Antisoche> Greetings, I think I found a documentation bug. http://code.gnucash.org/docs/guide/accts-oa5.html -- "...Grocery Expense for the amount kept ($41) and as a charge to Suspense for the amount returned ($6). The off-setting credit ($50) to cash..."
16:04:54 <Antisoche> $41 (op) $6 != $50
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16:46:39 <MrAnderson> Is there a quick tutorial on how to set up a PGSQL server? I thought I had all local connections to my PGSQL set to be trusted, but I still get errors from gnucash.
16:47:23 <MrAnderson> And gnucash dies when it fails to connect to the DB instead of retrying.
16:50:02 <warlord> Antisoche: can you please file a bug report in bugzilla? Thanks!
16:50:33 <MrAnderson> OK, I'll get to it when I get home then, since I don't know any way to use gnucash from a terminal.
16:50:39 <warlord> MrAnderson: Probably not; it's a relatively new feature and lots of moving parts; the docs are behind on catching up
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17:04:39 <Antisoche> Bug #639999
17:07:02 <Antisoche> A have a "philisophical" accounting question. I paid for something using cash from my wallet. I used "Cash From Wallet" in my business XAC. My business XAC doesn't have a wallet. What is the better way to account for this?
17:07:55 <Antisoche> Option 1 seems to be to charge it from my checking account, but then it won't reconsile with any checking statement. The other is --- set up an account for my person as a liability?
17:08:05 <jsled> Petty Cash?
17:08:55 <Antisoche> jsled: Well, the only account with any money in it is checking. Whatever else I use shows a negative asset value.
17:10:25 <warlord> Well, where did the cash actually come from?
17:10:35 <Antisoche> My wallet. :)
17:10:52 <warlord> Okay, so how is the business paying you?
17:12:03 <Antisoche> Well, I'm working "out of pocket" so we share a bank account, but I would expect it to write a check to me. Which leads me to think that I'm some sort of liability (or payable) to the business.
17:12:46 <Antisoche> (My bug report is from chapter 16.3, whick covers expense reports)
17:12:55 <warlord> Yep. so it would be A/P -> Expense, and then Checking -> A/P once you get paid.
17:14:19 <Antisoche> Oh, I see A/P is under Liabilities already. Makes perfect sense now. So I just create an A/P account that's "me"
17:16:00 <warlord> Or use the "Business -> Employee -> Expense Voucher"
17:17:03 <Antisoche> I like the sound of that better.
17:17:17 <Antisoche> And it gives me something new to learn! :-/
17:20:23 <Antisoche> In "New Employee" there's a checkbox at the bottom: "Credit Account" ... ?
17:20:34 <Antisoche> (Help button not helpful in 2.2.x)
17:29:52 <Antisoche> Even Google doesn't know what it's for. People seem happy to translate it though. Sadly, both words are both nouns and verbs. Stupid English.
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17:31:21 <warlord> Heh. I believe it is the account to use for your "Corporate Credit Card", if the employee has one. Then you can pay the card directly vs. paying the employee.
17:32:57 <Antisoche> Wow. That's incredibly unclear if true. The checkbox is in the "Billing" section, below hours/day, rate, and currency.
17:35:23 <warlord> Is it a checkbox or an entry field?
17:35:33 <Antisoche> Just a checkbox.
17:36:06 <warlord> Ah, the checkbox is whether the employee HAS a credit card. If you check it then it lets you choose.
17:37:52 <Antisoche> aha.
17:38:08 <Antisoche> I suppose I could have clicked it myself.
17:38:13 <warlord> Yeah.
17:38:14 <warlord> :-P
17:38:54 <Antisoche> :-
17:38:57 <Antisoche> :-)
17:39:05 <Antisoche> ... moving on.
17:48:37 <warlord> k
17:56:50 <Antisoche> warlord: Would it be proper to ask you about home-office deduction stuff? I put a % of my utilities into "Expenses:Utilities", but my tax software takes this out as a single line item on my return. It seems like I don't want to have that in GnuCash as a result (as it lowers my P/L).
17:57:08 * Antisoche is visiting Google ...
18:02:34 <warlord> Antisoche: I think you need to talk to your tax accountant/advisor about htat
18:03:14 <Antisoche> I think I have the answer.
18:04:03 <Antisoche> I'm not billing my company and I don't want to be in the business of billing utilities, so I need to take all of that stuff out. The tax return takes a flat %.
18:05:09 <warlord> k
18:05:52 <Antisoche> Sadly that makes my income higher, but I guess that's how those things work.
18:08:53 <Antisoche> Actually, it looks like I can only rent the space / bill utilities if there's a corporation involved, so that simplifies it further.
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18:12:59 <Antisoche> Perhaps appropriately timed, yahoo carried a story today suggesting that the tax law was too complicated to be deemed constitutional. One could only wish...
18:13:38 <Antisoche> http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/111855/tax-system-too-complex-to-be-constitutional
18:17:33 <warlord> heh
18:17:52 <warlord> Alas, I must disconnect from the network shortly to go give a presentation.
18:18:09 <Antisoche> Good luck.
18:18:12 <Antisoche> Thanks for all your help.
18:21:50 <warlord> thanks.
18:21:52 <warlord> you're welcome
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22:36:09 <hachque> i'm trying to connect to a gnucash 2.3 mysql database from 2.4, but i get a "data is corrupt or unreadable" message
22:36:14 <hachque> how do i migrate from 2.3 to 2.4?
22:41:59 <hachque> the mailing list says that 2.4 should be able to open 2.3 databases o_o
22:58:30 <warlord> No, 2.4 can read 2.2 XML files
22:58:40 <warlord> it all depends what version of 2.3 you were running.
23:01:04 <warlord> hachque: What version of 2.3 did you have? And were you using SQL or XML? The "approved" method of upgrade from 2.3 to 2.4 is File -> Save As [XML] .. But that might not work with some versions of 2.3.x due to bugs in the SQL code.
23:08:32 <warlord> anyways, I must leave now. Good Luck.
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