2010-12-30 GnuCash IRC logs

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09:55:08 <warlord> Flash: have you looked at the budget features and the budget report?
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13:07:31 <Silly> ooo, a new stable version of gnucash is out now?
13:08:34 <warlord> Came out last week.
13:09:37 <Silly> anything special to upgrade or just uninstall old and install new and then open old files like normal?
13:10:09 <warlord> what OS/Distro
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13:16:49 <kimmo> how does one configure gnucash on windows? or does the installer also install gconf?
13:20:32 <warlord> yes
13:20:43 <warlord> the installer installs everything (except PERL)
13:36:53 <kimmo> cool
13:47:50 <Flash> warlord: I have. I just downloaded 2.4 early this week. The budget report is very close, but it doesn't include YTD totals
13:48:24 <warlord> Flash: I've never used the budget features myself.. Have you checked the report options to see if there's an easy way to turn it on?
13:48:45 <Flash> I did and there is not
13:49:56 <Flash> well.... let me revise that....
13:50:48 <warlord> okay..
13:51:28 <Flash> there IS a column with totals, but there is no way to show a date range, so you only have totals for the entire year (maybe)
13:51:38 <Flash> (it's hard to play with this kind of feature in December)
14:05:56 <warlord> Well, unless you're looking backwards
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14:14:41 <Mer|in> i never did figure out how to use the budget feature effectively
14:14:54 <indigo> neither did i
14:15:28 <Mer|in> i guess if i only had to sit down with it once a year...
14:16:13 <Flash> setting up the budget is a once a year (minimum) task
14:16:30 <warlord> I've never used it, and the dev who wrote it disappeared shortly thereafter.
14:16:34 <Flash> although we have been known to revise our budget mid-year or so
14:16:58 <Flash> I was afraid I was going to have to learn LUA or Scheme to write my own custom report ......
14:17:13 <Flash> but we are pretty close now :-)
14:18:21 <kimmo> Excels are for budgeting
14:18:47 <Flash> only for the most basic of financial situations
14:19:51 <Flash> Is there a concept of "pruning" a data file, removing old transactions and leaving only the cumulative effects?
14:19:51 <kimmo> works fine for my personal finances and 4 businesses
14:20:05 <Flash> My file is a few years old now, and getting larger
14:20:41 <kimmo> no such thing
14:20:49 <warlord> Flash: no, not really. But generally it's not really necessary.
14:20:56 <warlord> I have 5-7 years of data in my file w/o problem
14:21:00 <kimmo> you can of course filter by date
14:21:16 <Flash> sure, I'm just curious if there is a performance issue lurking
14:21:52 <warlord> not until you have tens of thousands of transactions.
14:21:55 <kimmo> there were, but not really these days. I ran fine 2002-2009 in one file, and the reason for a new files was not performance
14:22:33 <Flash> is there a way to force the log/backup files to a different directory?
14:23:28 <kimmo> there, first books closed for 2010
14:23:35 <warlord> no. log/backups always go to the same directory as your data file
14:23:48 <warlord> kimmo: did you use the Close Books tool?
14:23:55 <warlord> (and if so, with 2.2 or 2.4?)
14:24:44 <Flash> would such a feature be entertained?
14:25:05 <warlord> Patches are always welcome
14:25:23 <Flash> sigh. the mantra of open source :-)
14:25:29 <warlord> yep
14:25:45 <indigo> warlord: i'm about to use the close books tool. what of it?
14:25:51 <kimmo> no I did not, still running 2.2.9 here
14:26:03 <kimmo> I was going to, but I forgot
14:26:03 <kimmo> heh
14:26:16 <warlord> you should use 2.4; 2.2.9 doesn't mark the transactions in a way that's easily detectable.
14:26:33 <kimmo> I know, you told me this a few days ago
14:26:39 <warlord> ok
14:27:08 <indigo> warlord: what do you mean by "mark the transactions"?
14:27:57 <warlord> indigo: which word don't you understand? :)
14:28:11 <kimmo> indigo, set the internal "book-closing txn" bit on
14:28:22 <indigo> well, i thought the point of that tool was to close income and expense accounts to equity
14:28:29 <indigo> i don't know what marking is involved
14:28:43 <warlord> yes, but ... you'd like to mark those transactions so they can be easily ignored by reports.
14:29:20 <indigo> i suppose; i was considering adapting the income/expense reports to ignore transactions that were transfers to equity
14:29:26 <kimmo> any way to have a liability or equity placeholder account be able to be parent of both types yet?
14:29:36 <Flash> FWIW, the topic of closing the books is not discussed in the Guide
14:29:38 <indigo> but, 2.4 sets some hidden bit so they don't get included in reports? because that would be awesome.
14:29:44 <warlord> kimmo: no.
14:29:52 <kimmo> indigo, something like that
14:30:11 <warlord> indigo: well, there is a hidden bit that gets set. The reports haven't been updated to use it, yet.
14:30:12 <kimmo> indigo, they already have a ignore pattern in 2.2.9
14:30:19 <kimmo> well, some of them
14:30:32 <kimmo> income statement at least
14:30:33 <warlord> but that pattern is.... a hack at best.
14:30:41 <kimmo> works fine
14:30:57 <kimmo> a hack that works, who'd have thought
14:31:12 <warlord> It works fine until you accidentally have another transaction that matches the regx
14:31:19 <kimmo> any snowstorms in ATL?
14:31:21 <warlord> .. and then *that* gets ignored,too. OOPS.
14:31:26 <warlord> Nah, just had a dusting.
14:31:35 <warlord> it's all gone now. It's 52F now.
14:31:35 <indigo> it might be nice to have that bit visible, instead of hidden magic
14:31:58 <kimmo> I guess, but it's kinda easy to work around when you know upfront you'll be using the default "Closing Entries" pattern
14:31:59 <indigo> less confusing, and also probably useful for things other than the book closing tool
14:32:00 <warlord> indigo: a) it's not magic. b) better to have it at all. c) it can get displayed later.
14:32:24 <warlord> how is 'xaccTransIsClosingTxn()' useful to "other things"?
14:32:42 <indigo> for example, i started using gnucash in the middle of the year, and started my income:salary account with a transfer from equity:opening balances so the income account balance matches the YTD total on my paystubs
14:33:02 <indigo> i didn't make half a year of salary in june, although the reports indicate i did.
14:33:26 <kimmo> that's just plain wrong
14:33:28 <warlord> Well, this is why we recommend starting on 1/1 ;)
14:33:39 <warlord> Arguably it is, arguably it isn't... ;)
14:33:57 <kimmo> you know it's plain wrong
14:34:02 <indigo> it makes it way easier to reconcile my paystubs
14:34:08 <kimmo> it's not good accounting practice
14:34:15 <indigo> why not?
14:34:17 <warlord> No, it's not plain wrong.
14:34:22 <warlord> HUH? What crack are you on, kimmo?
14:34:38 <warlord> Er... wait..
14:34:40 <warlord> Sorry, kimmo..
14:34:43 <warlord> You are right.
14:34:51 <kimmo> opening books and making transfers to income/expense?
14:34:53 <warlord> indigo: you shouldn't set Equity -> Income/Expense.
14:34:55 <kimmo> that's illegal in some places
14:35:12 * warlord wasn't paying close enough attention.
14:35:27 <kimmo> it's handy if you do personal finances and want to get the yearly totals for easy checking of your W-40 or similar
14:35:37 <kimmo> but for business purposes one shouldn't do that
14:35:49 <indigo> well, good thing it's not for business purposes
14:35:54 <kimmo> yeah
14:36:09 <indigo> i can't think of any reason to not do it in my case
14:36:29 <indigo> it makes the numbers in my accounts the same as those on my paystubs, and it makes the year end closing the same as my W-2
14:36:57 <indigo> and it doesn't alter calculations of my net worth or really lie about anything
14:37:51 <warlord> Well, your other option is to pre-date the opening balance entries to 'last year', and then have no transactions from jan-when-you-start.
14:38:26 <kimmo> that's the only reason for doing that. But as far as formal accounting goes, it's improper to just open books in the middle of the accounting year
14:38:43 <kimmo> but what you're doing is most likely the easiest solution, by a wide margin
14:38:59 <kimmo> just making sure you don't do that for 2011's books
14:39:09 <indigo> i did it once in 2007
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14:39:32 <indigo> i figured the possible confusion was less than the value of having at least some accounting for the next six months
14:39:54 <kimmo> yeah
14:40:50 <indigo> anyway, point is when i look at the income/expense report, i see hugely inflated income the month i started, and a huge loss in december of each year
14:41:00 <indigo> and that just sucks.
14:41:37 <indigo> i figured the way around that would be to rewrite the income/expense report to ignore any transactions that only move money between income/expense and equity accounts
14:42:07 <indigo> that would cover both cases without any change to my existing transactions
14:43:50 <warlord> the huge loss is probably due to the book closing.
14:44:02 <indigo> yes, exactly
14:44:08 <Silly> warlord: Windows
14:44:40 <warlord> Silly: Then yes, you should uninstall the existing version and then install the new one. Then the data file *should* just open
14:45:02 <warlord> indigo: c.f. why we want to mark those transactions so they get ignored by reports.
14:45:21 <gour> warlord: i'm told that in order to achive numbering schema similar to invoice_number-mm-yyyy, I can just use something like @{id}-@{date_opened.strftime('%m-%Y')} in my template..
14:45:39 <warlord> the only opening transactions you have are on day 0 when you start, but you can always back-date those to a previous year. E.g., even if you start accounting on July 1 you can set your opening balance dates to 12/31 of the previous year.
14:46:12 <warlord> gour: sure, but it wont re-start at 00000 on a new month or year.
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14:46:28 <indigo> warlord: why not simply ignore transfers to equity?
14:46:32 <warlord> So it would go 000023-12-2010 to 000024-01-2011
14:46:51 <warlord> indigo: because transfers to equity are still valid transactions.
14:47:01 <warlord> e.g. capital withdrawals
14:48:05 <kimmo> dividend payments, investments, equity loans, etc
14:48:15 <indigo> ah
14:48:20 <warlord> yeah. lots of reasons equity transactions cannot just be ignored.
14:48:26 <kimmo> I wouldn't mind infinite recurring dividend payment stho
14:48:28 <warlord> it really is *only* closing transactions.
14:48:41 <indigo> i guess in the case of personal accounting, none of those apply
14:49:05 <kimmo> depends on what kind of personal accounting you do
14:49:26 <kimmo> I switched to a new file a year ago to move to a businesslike account structure
14:49:40 <indigo> what's a personal situation where i'd want a transaction between an expense account and an equity account to be displayed as an expense in a report?
14:49:51 <kimmo> you wouldn't
14:50:41 <kimmo> but the equity to liability and asset transfers need to be seen
14:50:41 <indigo> ok, but you said it depends on what kind of personal accounting i do
14:51:25 <kimmo> yeah but the thing is, you should have exactly one transaction from income/expense to equity, per year
14:51:34 <indigo> i do
14:51:48 <indigo> i'm just having a hard time thinking of when and why i'd have otherwise
14:51:50 <kimmo> but assets and liabilities can move to/from equity in the middle of the year, too
14:52:21 <indigo> i was considering ignoring equity transfers only for the income/expense report
14:52:30 <kimmo> it's not often if you don't mimic forman business accounting with several classes of equity etc tho
14:52:55 <warlord> Well, your other option is to close the books on a date you don't use, and ignore that date in the reports.
14:52:57 <kimmo> that would work
14:53:16 <kimmo> how about open books on 12/31/10, close on 1/1/12
14:53:32 <indigo> i close my books on dec 31, which works great until i want a report showing mulitple years
14:53:48 <kimmo> yeah, multiple years would screw that
14:54:07 <indigo> it also kinda sucks at the start of a year, if i want to see some context
14:54:53 <warlord> kimmo: yep, which is why the 'mark the transaction' is a good thing.
14:54:58 <warlord> (once the reports are updated)
14:55:09 <kimmo> yeah
14:56:08 <indigo> i'm still not clear on why a separate mark is needed
14:56:10 <kimmo> I have all my businesses use a single file for a given year. That way for comparison I simply open both data files and run the same reports
14:56:24 <warlord> indigo: then just dont think about it.
14:56:29 <warlord> it's an implementation detail.
14:57:10 <kimmo> it's easier to ignore where X=1 than it is to ignore where T in (select ...)
14:57:35 <indigo> define "easier"
14:57:44 <warlord> indigo: by any definition
14:58:03 <kimmo> a bitmask comparison versus nested queries?
14:58:06 <indigo> well, let's use the definition of "faster to evaluate"
14:58:10 <warlord> (not (xaccTransIsClosingTrans(txn)) ...
14:58:26 <indigo> i contest that the proper index would make the evaluation time identical.
14:58:29 <kimmo> faster to evaluate, easier to write, more readable
14:58:36 <warlord> indigo: you're assuming SQL.
14:58:39 <warlord> bad assumption
14:58:40 <gour> warlord: yeah...you're right...half-baked solution
14:58:46 <indigo> well, kimmo did use an sql example
14:59:21 <indigo> also, i'd say these transactions where X=1 are about 1 in 1000
14:59:38 <indigo> the cost of not ignoring them is very small
14:59:57 <warlord> Checking the result of xaccTransIsClosingTrans(txn) is much easier than compare-transaction-description-string to some magic-regex..
15:00:21 <warlord> well, the cost of not ignoring them is making your reports confusing.
15:00:28 <warlord> (or downright invalid)
15:00:31 <Flash> this is a silly argument. Even in SQL, X=1 is faster to evaluate than T in (select ...)
15:00:54 <kimmo> or checking all the accounts involved in a split against get-account-list-by-type
15:01:04 <indigo> Flash: X=1 is just as fast as OMGLONGEXPRESSION(x) if there is an index on OMGLONGEXPRESSION(X)
15:01:10 <Flash> testing a specific state is always faster than computing the value of arguments to determine of the state is true
15:01:35 <indigo> Flash: and an index scan is faster still
15:01:42 <Flash> so index X
15:01:48 <warlord> indigo: an index on "is this a closing transaction" is a waste of space, considering it's only 1 transaction a year.
15:01:51 <warlord> (well, 2)
15:01:54 <indigo> Flash: so index the function that defines X
15:01:58 <Flash> indices are an optimization detail; many optimizations are possible
15:02:25 <indigo> warlord: ok, so then why worry about storing it at all?
15:02:33 <kimmo> when did this channel turn into #optimize-your-pseudo-code-for-hypothetical-scenarios-here
15:02:39 <Flash> lol
15:02:49 <warlord> indigo: because we want to be able to ignore those transactions.
15:02:59 <indigo> warlord: i understand that
15:03:33 <warlord> And comparing a mark-bit is a much better way than comparing the (modifyable) description string to some magic regex.
15:03:35 <indigo> my point is, wouldn't it make more sense to ignore them based on what they are, rather than some hidden bit that duplicates information that's already there, and may or may not be set correctly, and may or may not be obvious?
15:03:52 <warlord> It's NOT duplicating information.
15:03:58 <indigo> warlord: agreed there, but i'm not suggesting comparing descriptions to regexes.
15:04:09 <kimmo> the hidden bit is the thing that makes them "what they are"
15:04:18 <warlord> Then what are you suggesting, indigo
15:04:29 <indigo> what's the difference between a closing entry, and a transfer from an expense or income account to equity?
15:05:03 <warlord> indigo: it all depends on *why* you're making the transfer to equity
15:05:22 <indigo> ok, so when would i transfer expense to equity for not a closing entry?
15:05:24 <warlord> For personal use, probably not many, but for business purposes it's extremely important
15:05:30 <kimmo> indeed
15:05:51 <warlord> indigo: we've already gone over this. Please read back through the logs of this discussion.
15:06:06 <kimmo> anyway, CSI
15:06:16 <indigo> well, transfers from assets and equity, and liabilities and equity, i understand
15:06:26 <kimmo> enough pseudo optimization for me for the night
15:06:37 <kimmo> enough headache from the LTO1 operation earlier today
15:06:50 <warlord> kimmo: sorry for that. hope youhave a great new year!
15:07:29 <indigo> i'm still not clear on when, in the income/expense report, i'd want a transfer from or to equity to be displayed as an expense or income.
15:10:09 <warlord> Ask your accountant.
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21:12:58 <rkulik> Hi. Can anyone help get me started with GnuCash 2.4.0 and MySQL on Windows XP? All I ever get is an error message when I try to save my accounts into MySQL.
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22:05:53 <mishehu> and what is the error?
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