2010-11-23 GnuCash IRC logs
02:39:07 *** e-ndy has joined #gnucash
03:20:57 *** e-ndy has quit IRC
04:20:56 *** opalepatrick has joined #gnucash
04:42:11 *** kpreid_ has joined #gnucash
04:50:53 *** kpreid has quit IRC
04:50:54 *** kpreid_ is now known as kpreid
05:22:38 *** kpreid has quit IRC
05:37:12 *** gjanssens has joined #gnucash
05:37:13 *** gncbot sets mode: +o gjanssens
06:20:23 <blathijs> ey gjanssens
06:20:38 <blathijs> gjanssens: I saw a recent commit of yours to allow negative tax percentages
06:20:52 <blathijs> gjanssens: Was that intended to support reverse VAT?
06:22:02 <blathijs> gjanssens: And how would that work? Having a +100% and -100% tariff on two different accounts so you can get the total taxable amount on either of those accounts?
06:22:59 <blathijs> gjanssens: (I've been struggling with reversed VAT for some time: I've now created a custom report that can list the total taxable amount of any tax table, so I can just use a 0% tax tariff, but it's not quite as useful as I'd like yet)
06:26:18 <gjanssens> blathijs: the negative tax percentages were introduced to cater for VAT arrangements between EU member states
06:26:18 <gncbot> gjanssens: Sent 13 hours and 56 minutes ago: <warlord> Perhaps we need different files for each language in the docs.
06:28:03 <gjanssens> blathijs: When I send and invoice (as Belgian company) to a Dutch customer, I don't have to charge the customer VAT on the invoice,
06:28:14 <blathijs> gjanssens: yeah, that's reversed VAT, right?
06:28:20 <blathijs> gjanssens: "Verlegde BTW"
06:29:25 <gjanssens> blathijs: I'm not sure actually how it's called in Belgium, but I guess we are talking about the same thing indeed.
06:30:16 <gjanssens> blathijs: my idea is to create different accounts for VAT, matching the "BTW vakken" on the declaration.
06:30:57 <gjanssens> blathijs: that should be combined with a localized set of tax categories (to be done still) to categorize all income and expense accounts
06:31:27 <gjanssens> blathijs: and finally I hope to write a new report that mimics the Belgian VAT declaration.
06:32:42 <gjanssens> blathijs: so this is still a work in progress
06:32:58 <gjanssens> blathijs: allowing reversed VAT is just the first step.
06:33:49 <gjanssens> I don't know what the Dutch VAT declaration looks like, but I suppose it would be similar as the Netherlands are also EU members, right ?
06:34:06 <blathijs> gjanssens: Yeah, it's probably similar
06:34:30 <blathijs> gjanssens: But how would you say negative percentage help for reversed VAT?
06:35:49 <gjanssens> I would create a tax table with two entries. One for the regular VAT (21% here) and one with the reversed VAT (-21%). This tax table would only be used for invoices between EU member states
06:36:11 <gjanssens> I have another tax table for invoices in Belgium, which only has the 21% rule;
06:36:30 <gjanssens> And another for 6% based bills
06:36:48 <gjanssens> So depending on the invoice/bill I enter, I choose a different tax table.
06:37:04 <blathijs> Right. How do you put reversed tax on your declaration then?
06:37:39 <blathijs> In .nl, it does not show up at the 19% (which is 21% for you) declaration at all, but you only list the total taxable amount on which you reversed the VAT
06:38:05 <blathijs> Your approach suggests that you include reversed VAT in the 21% declaration and later subtract it again?
06:41:23 <gjanssens> I'd have to look this up again as I haven't actually used it for real, but I believe on the Belgian declaration the total tax (local + international) is reported and there's a separate entry
06:41:40 <gjanssens> that lists how much of this tax was for intra-EU state transactions
06:42:31 <gjanssens> How to get from the VAT entries on your invoice to your actual declaration may be different from country to country
06:43:21 <gjanssens> The negative VAT entry was only intended as the first step: to record you have to account for VAT, while it's balanced out on your invoice.
06:44:05 <gjanssens> With your Dutch rules, it seems you should have two 19% VAT accounts and one -19% VAT account.
06:44:12 <gjanssens> s/should/could/
06:44:51 <gjanssens> Your local tax table would write 19% tax transactions to the local 19% VAT account
06:45:29 <gjanssens> Your intrastate tax table would write 19% and -19% to the second 19% and the -19% VAT accounts respectively.
06:45:58 <gjanssens> From there you may include only the two 19% VAT accounts in your report for the declaration.
06:46:15 <gjanssens> Note that this is all thinking out loud.
06:48:52 <gjanssens> Got to go for a while...
06:50:49 <blathijs> Right.
06:51:03 <blathijs> That seems to make sense, though it's a bit hack-ish :-)
06:51:48 <blathijs> Right now, I just have a 0% rule for reversed VAT and a report that tells me the total taxable amount on which that 0% rule is applicable
06:53:11 <blathijs> But I guess that wouldn't work for the belgian case, since there you actually need to include the tax amount in the normal 21% declaration, not just the taxable amount separately
06:53:51 <blathijs> Bah, I had hoped that this part would be a bit more consistent among the EU :-)
07:22:50 *** fbond has joined #gnucash
07:33:12 <gjanssens> Yes that would have been nice indeed...
07:34:51 <gjanssens> @tell warlord I think it would indeed make sense to have different example files for each language
07:34:51 <gncbot> gjanssens: The operation succeeded.
07:44:03 <blathijs> gjanssens: Another thing with reversed VAT is how to put it on the invoice
07:44:46 <blathijs> right now, I've hacked my invoice report to not show the tax column if all the taxes are 0% and I add a note to the invoice stating that the tax is reversed
07:46:12 <blathijs> But it would be a lot more useful to actually add such a note automatically when one ore more entries in the invoice have reversed tax (to prevent me from forgetting the note, for example)
07:47:12 <blathijs> I've spent some thought on a generic solution to have a "special" tax tariff (in addition to percentage and amount right now), but it seems pretty much impossible to make this generic enough (especially when translations are involved)
07:47:48 <blathijs> so perhaps have a new "reversed" option for the tax tariff and special case that in the taxinvoice report is a better solution
07:47:57 *** Jimraehl has left #gnucash
07:55:33 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
07:56:28 <warlord> .
07:56:28 <gncbot> warlord: Sent 21 minutes ago: <gjanssens> I think it would indeed make sense to have different example files for each language
08:10:58 *** Jimraehl has joined #gnucash
08:16:45 *** fbond has quit IRC
08:17:54 *** fbond has joined #gnucash
08:34:37 *** bentob0x has joined #gnucash
08:35:15 <gjanssens> blathijs: Thinking of all this, in Belgium we also have a special "medecontractant" agreement
08:35:57 <gjanssens> This looks a bit like the intra state stuff in that no VAT is charged on invoices, but it has to be reported in the quarterly declaration.
08:36:34 <gjanssens> It is declared similarly to intra state, but not exactly the same.
08:37:28 <gjanssens> Perhaps intra state is as you write it in Belgium as well, while for medecontractant I have to add VAT to the regular declaration and report separatly how much of it was for medecontractant.
08:37:55 <gjanssens> Before implementing any of this, I'll double check all these subtle things
08:38:17 * gjanssens is writing an enhancement request for this now, so it doesn't get lost
08:39:16 *** Jimraehl has quit IRC
08:40:28 *** Jimraehl has joined #gnucash
08:40:53 <gjanssens> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=635610
08:44:10 <warlord> gjanssens: perhaps we need a "samples" directory in the sources that contains a bunch of sample data files?
08:46:48 *** haihappen has joined #gnucash
08:48:44 <haihappen> hello, got question i didn't found answered by the documentation: how do i manually "unlock" the files of an account
09:06:56 <warlord> What do you mean?
09:08:05 <haihappen> warlord: i have gnucash installed on a ubuntu system, i had my accounts opened and it crashed, now every time i open my account it says it cant get exclusive access to it that it was already opened
09:08:31 <warlord> haihappen: click "open anyways"
09:08:51 <haihappen> warlord: but it keeps saying that every time i work on it
09:09:01 <warlord> What version of gnucash?
09:09:14 <warlord> and what OS/Distro?
09:09:17 <haihappen> 2.2.9
09:09:53 <haihappen> Linux ernie_neu 2.6.32-24-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Fri Aug 20 14:24:04 UTC 2010 i686 GNU/Linux
09:11:08 <warlord> Are you sure you're exiting gnucash properly?
09:11:34 <warlord> Also, do you have multiple users on your system sharing the data file?
09:12:14 <haihappen> indded
09:12:16 <haihappen> indeed
09:12:32 <haihappen> but as it goes the error doesn't show up anymore now -_-
09:12:43 <warlord> Ah, well maybe the lock file is owned by user 1 and can't be destroyed by owner 2?
09:12:44 <haihappen> i executed it via ssh -X
09:13:11 <haihappen> and once i denied to open it and opened it manually by "Open..." it fanished
09:13:16 <haihappen> vanished
09:13:42 <haihappen> hmm, but it stayed as long as i kept to open it on startup...
09:14:04 <haihappen> anyway, thanks for trying^^
09:14:07 <warlord> Well, 2.2.9 is old; 2.4.0 is almost out, so if it's a bug it might have already been fixed.
09:14:16 <haihappen> hmm
09:15:15 <haihappen> just now running apt-get upgrade
09:15:24 <haihappen> thx fr the hint
09:16:15 <warlord> that probably wont get you anything newer.
09:16:38 <warlord> gjanssens: looks like the PDFs were generated last night, but I don't think they are web-accessible at the moment.
09:17:09 <haihappen> hmm, i will see
09:17:20 <haihappen> the error is gone for now, i will monitor it
09:17:24 <haihappen> thx, cya
09:17:27 <warlord> ok
09:17:27 <warlord> later
09:17:28 *** haihappen has left #gnucash
09:21:45 <warlord> gjanssens: fixed. pdf files should now be online.
09:54:45 *** fbond has quit IRC
10:10:34 *** fbond has joined #gnucash
10:12:03 *** opalepatrick has quit IRC
10:34:45 *** e-ndy has joined #gnucash
10:36:27 <gjanssens> warlord: what urls should I be looking for ?
10:36:45 <warlord> http://code.gnucash.org/docs/ *.pdf
10:40:49 <gjanssens> Ok, found them there.
10:47:04 <warlord> :)
10:51:20 <gjanssens> svn.gnucash.org and code.gnucash.org seem to be server aliases
10:51:29 <gjanssens> Currently the html pages use svn.
10:51:39 <gjanssens> Which one is prefered ?
10:56:15 <warlord> Doesn't matter.
10:56:34 <warlord> the "official" (a-record) name is "code", svn is a cname.
10:56:55 <warlord> Generally I think "code" should be used, but I don't expect the name to change anymore.
10:56:58 <warlord> ... it's a VM
11:00:15 <gjanssens> Ok, since I have to change the website anyway, I'll change to code wherever I pass.
11:02:55 <warlord> ok.
11:03:25 <warlord> I think 'svn' should be limited to subversion/trac access. 'lists' for mailing list access, and 'code' for pretty much everything else.
11:03:33 <warlord> .. oh, and 'wiki' for wiki acccess.
11:04:47 <gjanssens> Agreed
11:11:03 <gjanssens> warlord: the Japanese guide has a naming inconsistency:
11:11:10 <gjanssens> html is in guide-ja_JP
11:11:17 <gjanssens> pdf is guide-jp_JP
11:11:27 <gjanssens> a typo in your script ?
11:18:45 *** e-ndy has quit IRC
11:26:58 *** dibson has joined #gnucash
11:37:05 *** kpreid has joined #gnucash
11:42:11 *** dibson has quit IRC
11:52:51 <warlord> Nope, typo on my ln command.
11:53:29 <warlord> gjanssens: should be fixed now.
11:55:29 <gjanssens> Indeed, it is. Thanks.
11:56:18 <gjanssens> The Japanese pdf doesn't seem to show properly in Okular though. I'll leave it like that for now.
11:56:24 <gjanssens> Perhaps it's just an issue with okular
11:57:25 <warlord> try evince?
11:59:01 <gjanssens> Nope, same problem. But if both are based on ghostscript that could still be a ghostscript issue
11:59:15 <gjanssens> I'll see if I can find an Acrobat reader somewhere.
12:02:28 <warlord> Or maybe it's a local font issue?
12:02:35 <warlord> (or maybe it's a font issue on the server?)
12:07:14 <gjanssens> I'm not sure. In each pdf reader I open, there is a TOC on the left-hand side the renders properly (or at least in some Asian charset)
12:07:31 *** dibson has joined #gnucash
12:07:34 <gjanssens> But the pages themselves all show # signs
12:07:44 <gjanssens> instead of valid characters
12:23:38 <warlord> Huh
12:23:49 <warlord> Well, maybe get the translator to work on it?
12:23:54 <warlord> Do the HTML render correctly?
12:24:20 <gjanssens> Yes, html renders fine
12:24:49 * gjanssens is cursing the Adobe download manager on windows right now
12:25:09 <gjanssens> The stupid thing doesn't work properly on Firefox, only on IE
12:28:17 <gjanssens> Ok, finally got Acrobat Reader installed. The guide is garbled there as well. So we have something to fix in our scripts.
12:28:58 <gjanssens> I may look at it sometime later. There's more pressing matters now...
12:44:03 <warlord> Okay.
12:45:03 <warlord> Hmmm, it looks like mail to the moderator of gnucash-fr is bouncing.
12:45:15 <warlord> .. and there are 1500+ messages in the gnucash-fr moderation queue.
12:45:20 <kimmo> gjanssens, may I recommend Foxit reader, if you must use windows
12:48:36 <gjanssens> kimmo: thanks, I'll check it out.
12:50:02 <gjanssens> I don't *have* to use windows though. I mainly have it around to test GnuCash on windows. Got it confined to a VM. That's much easier to handle than on real hardware.
12:50:23 <warlord> It's so nice to iconify the BSoD ;)
12:50:38 <gjanssens> :)
12:51:19 <gjanssens> warlord: wow I don't want to be the gnucash-fr moderator at this point...
12:51:57 <warlord> LOL, well, who knows how long it's been since the last time it was moderated.
12:52:12 <warlord> those 1500 messages could be 12 months of spam.
12:52:49 <gjanssens> indeed, but someone has to look at each of them to verify that. Pfew
12:52:51 <jsled> declare bankruptcy there, I'd imagine
12:53:13 <jsled> nuke 'em all and start moderating fresh. if they're that old, they're not relevant anyways.
12:53:46 <gjanssens> jsled: Yeah, that's probably a more human solution.
12:55:54 <warlord> Someone would need to contact xavier dot mailing-liste at ifrance dot com
12:56:03 <warlord> (the current maintainer)
12:56:10 <warlord> Assuming, of course, that you can reach him
12:56:25 <warlord> Right now I'm getting: Deferred: 452 Insufficient system storage
13:07:20 *** Krumar has joined #gnucash
13:21:46 <kimmo> gjanssens, Foxit reader is a lifesaver, a lot smaller mem fp and a lot faster than adobe, plus it lets you save filled pdf forms without a paid subscription
13:45:57 *** ErKa has joined #gnucash
13:49:23 <gjanssens> kimmo: installing Foxit right now ;)
13:51:40 <gjanssens> First bad point for Foxit: it installed the Ask toolbar in firefox even though I explicitly told it not to.
13:52:05 * gjanssens doesn't like the new trend of browser plugins to insist on installing commercial crap add-ons
13:52:48 <gjanssens> To be fair, Adobe tried to do the same thing, but at least it didn't install the toolbar when I said I don't want it.
13:55:35 <gjanssens> Anyway, Foxit just confirms that the charset issue has to be resolved on our side. It shows # signs instead of Japanese glyphs, just like the other readers.
13:56:04 <gjanssens> I'll keep using foxit though, it seems cleaner that Adobe at first sight.
13:56:14 <gjanssens> So thanks, kimmo
14:07:22 <kimmo> no prob
14:14:33 *** bentob0x has quit IRC
15:27:12 *** sjc has joined #gnucash
15:38:16 *** cortana has joined #gnucash
15:43:54 *** dibson has quit IRC
16:09:39 *** Mer|in has quit IRC
16:13:40 *** Krumar has quit IRC
16:20:49 *** bentob0x has joined #gnucash
17:36:10 *** warlord2 has joined #gnucash
17:39:50 *** warlord has quit IRC
17:48:57 *** fbond has quit IRC
17:52:49 *** bentob0x has quit IRC
17:53:06 *** markjenkinsparit has joined #gnucash
17:53:10 *** markjenkinsparit has left #gnucash
17:57:25 *** gjanssens has quit IRC
18:22:08 *** dibson has joined #gnucash
18:39:46 *** helix7 has quit IRC
18:43:29 *** warlord2 is now known as warlord
18:43:30 <warlord> @op
18:43:31 *** gncbot sets mode: +o warlord
18:43:37 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
19:19:53 *** dibson has quit IRC
19:30:27 *** ErKa has quit IRC
19:55:19 *** fbond has joined #gnucash
19:56:11 *** fbond has quit IRC
19:57:08 *** fbond has joined #gnucash
20:23:11 *** Jimraehl has left #gnucash
20:34:25 *** Jimraehl has joined #gnucash
20:58:45 *** cortana has quit IRC
21:10:05 *** sjc has quit IRC
21:19:12 *** fell has joined #gnucash
21:35:34 <fell> jsled: can I trust RSA key fingerprint is 73:7e:70:59:6d:ba:13:95:9e:6a:37:87:9b:10:ac:7b?
22:12:45 <jsled> fell: of?
22:13:28 <fell> svn.gnucash.org
22:14:29 <jsled> hrm. I wonder how to get the fingerprint
22:15:25 *** aschneiderg has joined #gnucash
22:15:26 <jsled> yup
22:15:40 <jsled> at least, that's what buried deep in my ~/.ssh/known_hosts file
22:16:16 <fell> Then we use the same machine. :)
22:17:58 *** aschneiderg has quit IRC
22:18:38 <fell> and how do I get here op?
22:21:41 <jsled> @op
22:21:41 *** gncbot sets mode: +o jsled
22:21:54 <fell> @op
22:21:54 <gncbot> fell: Error: You don't have the #gnucash,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
22:22:26 <fell> I will reenter with password
22:22:42 *** fell has quit IRC
22:26:26 *** rpg has joined #gnucash
22:27:43 *** fell has joined #gnucash
22:30:13 <fell> @op
22:30:13 <gncbot> fell: Error: You don't have the #gnucash,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
22:31:34 <fell> whoami
22:42:52 <fell> <gncbot> Error: I can't find fell in my user database.
23:02:31 *** fell has quit IRC