2010-09-02 GnuCash IRC logs

00:21:49 *** skippuff54 has joined #gnucash
00:24:27 <skippuff54> warlord: this is what i am stuck on with the college tuition - the loan is a liability, but it has to correspond to an increase or decrease somewhere else. what i am thinking is that the loan decreases another liability, which is to the school for tuition. and the tuition is the initial liability that i owe in exchange for the education - aka one semester of courses. this is because the education is the asset, or entity that represent
00:24:27 <skippuff54> s value
00:26:49 <skippuff54> so, the fall semester is an asset that i receive in exchange for the tuition i pay, and the balance on my student account is an account payable to the school. in my case, the federal government buys that liability from the school, and my tuition liability becomes zero while i encounter a new liability to the feds for the laon
00:26:53 <skippuff54> loan
00:31:01 <skippuff54> i am thinking of setting up an asset account for my education, which will quickly have a balance of zero once my tuition bill is paid. i could logically consider my books assets as well, but i am not going so far. also, over the course of my life, i could try to track the appreciation of my education asset in terms of income that i earn, but i dunno that i could ever get that to be really precise
00:31:52 <skippuff54> warlord or anyone else can correct me as they see fit
00:44:43 <kimmo> well, your Education does
00:45:08 <kimmo> doesn't have any liquid resale capabilities, and you can't really sell yourself
00:45:52 <kimmo> so realistically, even though it really is an investment, it doesn't have any monetary value as an asset
01:11:04 <skippuff54> kimmo: well, when my school bills me for my tuition, and i pay it with a mixture of student loans, grants, and scholarships...but none of my own money, all of that is deposited directly into my account with the school bursar. how should i account for it?
01:11:33 <skippuff54> maybe two liabilities - one that is the initial tuition bill, then another that is the student loan?
01:12:34 *** Krumar has quit IRC
01:14:37 <skippuff54> warlord suggested to mark tuition as an expense, but if i do it like that, i still have to make the double-entry for the student loan somewhere (maybe equity?) and it is hard to list my semester tuition as one total that i pay with a variety of funds
01:17:54 <skippuff54> plus, i get money back from the student loan, directly deposited into my checking account, so that shows up when i imported the xml file
01:19:27 <skippuff54> what i need to do is enter the loan disbursement as a liability that is split between my tuition and my checking account
01:21:57 <skippuff54> which brings me to another question: what is the best way to make a transaction that is automatically imported with an ofx file part of a split transaction? another example is making my ofx-imported paycheck an entry for net pay in an income transaction that is split between my checking account and my tax expense/liability...i know the documentation describes that exact process, but the last time i tried it, i did something wrong. may
01:21:57 <skippuff54> be entered splits in the wrong order
01:26:47 <skippuff54> i got disconnected from 00:22-00:26 so please repost if anyone said anything to me
01:30:14 <jsled> no one did
01:35:02 <skippuff54> ok, thank you, will keep checking
02:00:40 *** Askarii has joined #gnucash
03:06:53 <kimmo> skippuff, scholarship and grants are non-taxable income for you. loan is a liability for you. Tuition is an expense for you
04:19:18 *** skippuff54 has quit IRC
06:35:57 *** bentob0x has joined #gnucash
06:48:30 *** chosig has joined #gnucash
06:49:10 <chosig> good morning, i've just started to use gnucash - how do I add an account that has money in it when added?
06:57:29 <chosig> duh, missed the tab for it :P
06:57:36 <gary> :)
06:58:02 <gary> I was just firing up GNUCash to look where the 'opening balances' part of the new account was so icould tell you.
07:03:02 <chosig> wife's going back to school - thought it'd be a good time to start trying to stream line the economics :)
07:10:37 <gary> heh
07:18:02 *** kpreid has quit IRC
07:25:33 *** lol_h has joined #gnucash
07:30:35 *** bentob0x has quit IRC
07:52:59 *** kpreid has joined #gnucash
08:00:07 *** Jimraehl1 has left #gnucash
08:11:42 *** Jimraehl1 has joined #gnucash
08:43:36 *** fbond has joined #gnucash
08:45:14 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
08:47:47 <warlord> skippuff54: tuition is an expense. If you have a loan that partially pays tuition and partially gets paid to you, then it would be a Split transaction from Liability:Loan -> Checking; Expense. So you Credit Liability, Debit Checking, and Debit Expense.
08:48:23 <warlord> chosig: Worst case, you can just add a transaction from Equity:Opening Balances
08:50:56 *** kpreid has quit IRC
08:53:48 *** kpreid has joined #gnucash
09:02:05 *** kpreid has quit IRC
09:21:39 <chosig> warlord: yeah, but i didn't see that there was a tab when you created an account that let you set an initial ammount, ie. E::Opening Balances
09:22:09 <chosig> adjusted, now i'm just trying to come up with a good setup to match premises in sweden
09:22:16 <warlord> It doesn't matter; putting data into the tab just creates that (normal) transaction fo ryou
09:22:26 <chosig> yeah
09:45:52 *** kpreid has joined #gnucash
09:56:14 *** kpreid has quit IRC
09:58:49 *** Slurpee has joined #gnucash
10:08:05 *** kpreid has joined #gnucash
10:15:25 <warlord> DAMN, the gnucash server was dropping email.
10:17:07 <todd> shame
10:18:02 <warlord> yeah. luckily I noticed it quickly, but anything sent overnight....
10:24:51 *** fbond has quit IRC
10:36:51 *** fbond has joined #gnucash
10:47:32 *** Askarii has joined #gnucash
11:08:06 *** Askarii has quit IRC
11:13:31 *** ryanarn has joined #gnucash
11:17:03 *** fbond has quit IRC
11:18:08 *** fbond has joined #gnucash
11:18:37 *** Slurpee has quit IRC
11:21:42 *** Linuturk has quit IRC
11:23:32 *** Linuturk has joined #gnucash
11:45:05 *** Slurpee has joined #gnucash
11:45:33 *** markjenkinsparit has joined #gnucash
11:59:10 *** kpreid has quit IRC
12:13:14 <ryanarn> Does the use of 'double' in computations present any problems with rounding error, accumulated or otherwise due to binary float or is this generally not a problem?
12:14:14 <jsled> where? pretty much everything in the engine is GncNumeric
12:14:38 <jsled> in the engine and out to the UI and Reports, even.
12:15:04 <ryanarn> jsled: thanks, I'll look at that.. I was looking in src/calculation/
12:15:44 *** lol_h has quit IRC
12:15:47 <chosig> Is there any docs on how to make your own subset of accounts and similar things in the initial wizard?
12:16:13 <ryanarn> jsled: I'm the maintainer for libdfp (a decimal floating point library) and I'm interested in seeing if GNUCash could benefit from it.
12:16:40 <chosig> In Sweden there's a standardized set of accounts and numbers for business.
12:17:42 <jsled> chosig: no docs, really … use the files in /usr/share/gnucash/accounts/… as a guideline
12:18:26 <jsled> chosig: last I recall, if you just drop a new language-named directory in there, its contents will get picked up when the new account druid is run
12:19:18 <warlord> ryanarn: yes.
12:19:41 <chosig> jsled: aha, ok. thanks
12:19:59 <warlord> ryanarn: er, the "yes" was to "does the use of double present problems"
12:20:54 <warlord> chosig: the easiest way is to create a set of accounts in GnuCash, then File -> Export -> Export Accounts.. And then modify the xml by hand to convert the guid type to 'new' and add the surrounding "gnucash-xea" glue as per the existing templates.
12:21:13 <warlord> Unfortunately we don't have a good way to generate this from the app (perhaps a feature request, or better yet a patch?)
12:21:57 <ryanarn> ahh I see my old colleague Linas Vepstas has worked on gnc-numeric.
12:24:25 <ryanarn> warlord: do these problems persistent even with the use of gnc-numeric?
12:24:35 <warlord> nope, gnc-numeric is rational.
12:24:47 <warlord> so it's exact.
12:25:26 <warlord> It was certainly more important when we had to deal with rational stock prices. It's less of an issue nowadays. Nowadays we more have to worry about precision over/under flow
12:26:15 <ryanarn> warlord: is performance of calculations considered an issue with the use of gnc-numeric?
12:27:09 <warlord> well, yes... and no. gnc-numeric is used all through the code, but it's never been a bottleneck.
12:28:40 <ryanarn> warlord: if precision overflow/underflow is a persistent problem, how is this dealt with? Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to figure out whether it'd be worthwhile for me to prototype support for libdfp.
12:34:30 <warlord> gnc-numeric is way too low-level integrated to consider switching to something else.. but no, it's not a persistent problem. It only shows up in some of the tests whe we create random fractions with very very large non-decimal denominators.
12:34:36 <warlord> (non-decimal meaning not a power of 10)
12:34:49 <warlord> However non-decimal denoms tend not to show up in real life, so it's not an issue practically.
12:35:06 <warlord> There are precision issues in some exchange rates, but that's due to the UI, not the underlying code.
12:36:58 <ryanarn> warlord: for a prototype I'd probably keep the gnc-numeric API and just replace the internals with libdfp calls and DFP types if possible. I guess the problematic point would be if gnc-numeric internals spill out into the code that uses it, i.e. code touching struct elements directly.
12:38:58 <warlord> struct gnc_numeric {} is NOT opaque
12:39:05 <warlord> it's accessed directly everywhere
12:40:23 <ryanarn> ok that's unfortunate ... thanks for the run-down.
12:41:36 <warlord> no problem.
12:43:10 <ryanarn> I'm not sure of the performance gains you'd get on x86 anyway, even with DFP support since there is no hardware DFPu on x86, only on the Power Arch.
12:44:56 *** Slurpee has quit IRC
12:44:57 <warlord> it wouldn't matter. gnc-numeric isn't our bottleneck
12:45:05 <ryanarn> right
12:51:45 <ryanarn> warlord: thanks for your time.
12:52:07 <warlord> You're welcome! And good luck
13:10:28 *** mroe has joined #gnucash
13:10:47 <mroe> it is hard to find bookkeepers willing to use anything other than quickbooks
13:13:48 <todd> there should be a free advertising on the website for those that are willing to use gnucash
13:14:57 <jsled> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Is_there_a_CPA_.28Certified_Public_Accountant.29_who_uses_GnuCash_in_my_area.3F
13:15:48 <todd> oh there is, nice
13:19:51 <warlord> I just send my accountant a Balance Sheet, P&L, and a Transaction Report at the end of the year; they seem to be happy with that.
13:21:09 <mroe> warlord, yes, but *you're* doing the book keeping
13:21:35 <warlord> um, yes... but if I wasn't why would I care what they use.
13:21:35 <mroe> I don't have the time to do my own book keeping anymore, and want to farm it out
13:21:35 <warlord> ?
13:21:41 <mroe> principle?
13:22:04 <mroe> because paying someone to use quickbooks makes me feel dirty
13:22:13 <mroe> and I know that their rate has the cost of the program built into it
13:22:51 <warlord> You're not paying them to do QB, you're paying them to keep your books because you're not able/willing to... That's not the same. If they were just using pen and paper how would that be any different to you? You just ask them for the reports and they give it to you.
13:25:13 <mroe> because while I am paying someone to do the work, I still would like to maintain control over the books. If for whatever reason I ahve to find a new book keeper, I want to be able to maintain ownership of the data
13:25:46 *** kpreid has joined #gnucash
13:25:57 <mroe> with QB, sure they can give me all the reports I want, or they can give me the qbdata file, but neither really help me continue keeping the books
13:25:58 <warlord> good luck, Señor Quijote.
13:26:11 *** ryanarn has left #gnucash
13:26:27 <warlord> Honestly, have you considered hiring someone in house?
13:26:27 <mroe> yea, well, if those windmills behaved themselves I wouldn't have to get all righteous
13:26:49 <mroe> I have, but I don't think there is enough work for a full time position
13:26:50 <todd> mroe: I hear you
13:27:01 <todd> mroe: part time positions have been known to be created ..
13:27:05 <mroe> ha
13:27:19 <mroe> yea, that may be the best bet
13:28:00 <todd> mroe: I had someone I hired part time to do my taxes and help clean up some bad practices in my books, .. they procrastinated and due to a deadline they re-entered things from my bank statements into QB and I got nothing but taxes out of the deal
13:28:13 <mroe> right
13:28:24 <todd> mroe: I run a 100% unix shop, no m$ .. so QB of course keeps the data from even being seen by me ..
13:28:49 <mroe> I have accountants that are very capable and able to work with gnucash, but they don't do book keeping
13:28:54 * todd wonders how close the multiuserdb support has gotten, needs to look .. ;-)
13:28:59 <mroe> todd, right, that is my other problem
13:29:13 <mroe> todd, I'm excited about that too
13:31:55 <warlord> todd: not
13:32:11 <todd> warlord: heh, didn't think so, db access is a huge 1st step though
13:32:58 <mroe> it would be difficult to have multiuserdb access without a db...
13:33:34 <warlord> todd: it is, but right now it is definitely single-user only.
13:34:18 <todd> sounds familiar, I'll try to refrain from talking about multiuserdb for another year, or if I get some free time see what can be done to head that direction ... notime soon for sure .. ;-)
13:53:16 <warlord> patches always welcome. The hardest part is multi-client coherency. Gnucash isn't a "DB App", per se. It caches the whole dataset locally. So it needs some way of learning about any updates to the DB.
13:58:13 <mroe> why cache it locally at all then?
13:59:11 <warlord> because Gnucash isn't a DB App
13:59:26 <warlord> Not caching locally would require rewriting major parts of the gnucash underbelly.
13:59:45 <mroe> ah
14:00:12 <mroe> I'll read about it more before i ask any more uninformed questions
14:08:40 <warlord> sounds like a plan ;)
14:09:24 <todd> learning about updates in a db independent way makes it even more fun.
14:15:35 <warlord> Yup!
14:15:51 <warlord> Probably the easiest way is going to be via a polling mechanism
14:40:47 *** upgraydd has joined #gnucash
14:41:20 <upgraydd> is there a better resource for a sql backend than http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/SQL
14:41:22 <upgraydd> ?
14:43:27 <jsled> the code? ;)
14:43:45 <upgraydd> I have that as well! heh
14:43:47 <upgraydd> thats cool
14:43:49 <upgraydd> thanks
14:44:11 <upgraydd> would I be able to submit anything to the wiki if I have productive information on it?
14:44:28 <jsled> that's the idea
14:44:36 <upgraydd> sounds good
15:34:07 *** stormy has quit IRC
15:36:16 *** esperegu has quit IRC
15:46:51 *** stormy has joined #gnucash
15:49:35 *** gjanssens has joined #gnucash
15:49:35 *** gncbot sets mode: +o gjanssens
16:16:50 *** cortana has joined #gnucash
16:17:08 *** fbond has quit IRC
17:43:21 *** gjanssens has quit IRC
18:01:49 *** kpreid has quit IRC
18:04:23 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
19:05:36 *** markjenkinsparit has quit IRC
19:28:55 *** shact has joined #gnucash
19:29:50 <shact> Hey all. If I buy a car for say £1000, but it's worth £1500, how do I account for the extra £500 in assets? Does it go in equity? What should it be called? Thanks
19:36:48 <cortana> shact: appreciation?
19:39:43 <cortana> AKA capital gains i think...
19:39:49 <cortana> see chapter 9 of the tutorial & concepts guide
19:40:40 <cortana> you transfer £1k from assets:cash to assets:car and £500 from income:car appreciation to assets:car
19:41:44 <shact> i don't think it is appreciation though, as it hasn't gone up in value or changed value yet
19:42:00 <cortana> well... how do you know it's worth this extra £500?
19:42:24 <shact> I put the extra £500 between assets:car and equity:acquired equity
19:42:48 <cortana> i don't think it's right to take it from an equity account
19:42:48 <shact> well... that really isn't the point. I'm asking an accounting question
19:42:55 <cortana> it should come from income
19:43:12 <shact> how would you put it in income?
19:52:33 <shact> hmm, kind of works as an unrealised gain too. It can stay there for tonight. bed time
19:53:21 *** shact has left #gnucash
19:54:47 *** kpreid has joined #gnucash
19:56:15 *** cortana has quit IRC
21:07:09 *** Jimraehl1 has left #gnucash
21:08:15 *** Jimraehl1 has joined #gnucash
22:18:38 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
22:29:15 *** Slurpee has joined #gnucash
23:35:48 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk