2010-07-09 GnuCash IRC logs
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01:21:06 <mishehu_> the guy named himself "the bathroom" ?
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01:21:19 <mishehu> unless that's ban~o
02:20:18 <kimmo> maybe he, like so many others, think the can is the most comfortable seat in the house?
02:21:20 <mishehu> those folks must have really fancy seats on their cans then
02:21:30 <mishehu> mine gets uncomfortable after a few minutes...
02:21:47 <mishehu> though it's still the best room in the house to ponder the complexities of life in.
02:23:40 <kimmo> well these days you can get the can fitted with a form fitted ring, and install all sorts of high tech gadgets in there, such as an lcd and a wireless keyboard
02:24:10 <kimmo> and don't forget the $50 travel fridge filled with a 12 pack of brewskies
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03:57:38 <blathijs> Shouldn't this templating discussion focus a bit more on what we want to achieve than which language to use?
03:58:48 <blathijs> For example, it would be nice to have extensible reports (e.g., I could write a new report that says "Use taxinvoice.scm, but add these two options to it")
03:59:34 <blathijs> I think the option-stuff is good like it is now: easy adding of options with a common backend?
04:00:27 <gour> didn't i mention the aims/goals from the TAL, i.e. 1) Play nicely with editing tools. 2) What you see is very similar to what you get. and 3) Keep code out of templates, except for structural logic.
04:00:53 <gour> and, imho, TAL does it quite good
04:01:39 <gour> of course, i wouldn't mind having something similar in guile or whatever other language...my point about python is just the experience i have to concrete example
04:04:02 <blathijs> I'm not so sure about those goals. Are there really editors that work well with random extra properties on HTML? You'd have to add them manually at any rate, and I can imagine a lot of editors screwing up the tags when you move things around...
04:04:23 <blathijs> As for point 3), the flipside of that is that you lose flexibility
04:04:40 <blathijs> (I'm not arguing either way in particular, just exploring options, btw)
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04:07:56 <gour> blathijs: download e.g. latest tarball of roundup tracker and load some of its *.html templates in FF to see how does it look like
04:11:50 <blathijs> That's previewing, not editing
04:12:18 <blathijs> I believe the previewing part, my doubts are mostly with the editing part
04:12:22 <gour> well, that's also something. how can you preview eguile report?
04:12:46 <blathijs> then again, I never use WYSYWIG HTML editors, so I wouldn't know :-)
04:12:56 <blathijs> By running it with some data :-)
04:13:18 <blathijs> and if you have gnucash open, that just means pressing refresh in gnucash instead of a browser
04:17:06 <gour> in any case, scm template is way too noisy, imho, in comparison with e.g. TAL...i'd say you could s/TAL/{enshi,jinja,...} as well
04:18:08 <blathijs> Though that's partly because scheme is a bit verbose and partly because of the PHP-style "templating" I think
04:18:21 <gour> i tend to agree
04:19:24 <gour> end result is, however, that it's not as user-friendly as it should or supposed to be
04:19:42 <blathijs> but I still think the flexibility of the PHP-style templating can be a big win. Complex logic tends to get awkward or impossible in "real" template languages
04:21:01 <gour> do we need complex logic?
04:21:51 <blathijs> most people won't, probably
04:22:37 <blathijs> But even slightly less complex (like alternating between grey and white rows in a table) can be cumbersone or impossible, if the template language does not have specific features to do so
04:23:16 <gour> so, the point is to make it easy(er) for non-geeky users. geeks can, anyway, find their way with everything
04:23:48 <gour> the above should be, imho, done via css/js
04:24:06 <gour> not the task for templating language
04:24:23 <blathijs> That would be js the, css can't do that
04:25:07 <gour> 1st google hit http://roshanbh.com.np/2008/03/different-color-alternate-row-jquery.html
04:25:37 <gour> and here for css - http://www.somacon.com/p338.php
04:38:13 <blathijs> gour: The first is js, I can see how that can work easily (but it would require js again, which I don't particularly like. OTOH, the only target is webkit, of course)
04:38:33 <blathijs> gour: The second isn't just CSS, it needs an alternating CSS class in the HTML
04:38:48 <blathijs> gour: Which you need to do from the template, which was exacty my point
04:39:27 <gour> blathijs: the point is that is it doable either with js or css
04:40:06 <gour> do you think that now it's easier to do it in eguile?
04:40:43 <blathijs> gour: My point is that to use CSS you also need to do something in the template language, which might not be trivial if the template language doesn't even a specific "evenodd" or "cycle" construct or something
04:41:44 <blathijs> gour: The even/odd thing was also an example of something that's not completely complicated, but complicated enough to not work with basic if/then/else and looping constructs (it would need variable assignment, which template languages typically don't provide)
04:41:47 <gour> blathijs: but this kind of functionality can be added manually by just adding some css classes od deploy readily available js script..it's cosmetic
04:42:12 <blathijs> gour: Yeah, I agree that using js would probably be a sufficient solution
04:42:26 <gour> otoh, templating language is supposed to solve other non-cosmetic issues
04:46:15 <blathijs> I still think that a PHP-style language is more flexible in general, but I appreciate your point about not needing the flexibility in most cases. The addition of js can even lift the flexibility of the other template languages to the same level, I think.
04:46:28 <blathijs> And of course the flexibility has the cost of being more verbose, usually
04:48:08 <gour> eguile is probably quite powerful & flexible, but out-of-reach for many...that's the point...if gnucash devs are satisfied with it - that's fine and i cannot complain receiving such a fien application for free
04:48:42 <gour> otoh, i believe gnucash has much more potential to be used for many more users, but lack of (easy) customizability is showstopper
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07:36:05 <gary> bah, I still can't seem to make sense of this payroll stuff and liability accounts.
07:37:15 <gary> Surely something is a liability until you have to pay it, at which point it becomes an expense and decreases the liability?
07:39:26 <blathijs> Isn't it so that something becomes both an expense and a liability and an expense as soon as the obligation to pay something is established (e.g., receiving an invoice or perhaps even signing a contract)
07:39:46 <gary> Perhaps that's why i'm misunderstanding it.
07:39:53 <blathijs> And when you actually pay it, the liability gets removed, against your bank account
07:42:30 <gary> If that's teh case, it exlpains why I can't balance my tarnsaction :)
07:42:57 <gary> it doesn't explain why I can't type properly today though ;)
07:43:26 <blathijs> It looks like you're trying to involve three accounts in a single transaction when the payment is made (liability, expense and bank account), which won't work :-)
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07:51:14 <gary> That's what the GNUCash concepts guide suggests you do with payroll.
07:52:04 <gary> I think that I am just confusing an expense as only being an expense when the money actually goes out. Whereas actually, it's an expense, because it then becomes a liability until you've paid it.
07:52:30 <gary> And like you've said, I then decrease teh liability when I actually pay the taxes.
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08:02:24 <kimmo> indeed
08:04:04 <kimmo> a typical payroll transaction in a small business involves the payroll transaction, which involves creating an expense in "Personnel expenses", and balancing that with liabilities in "Income tax withheld", "Social security tax withheld", "Salaries payable", and then on a later date you pay off those debts to the employees and the government
08:04:36 <kimmo> implementation varies by legislation of course, but that's how you do it
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21:38:35 <remlabm> i dont think gnucash can do this but im looking for a web based solution
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21:38:55 <warlord> remlabm: have you looked at sql-ledger?
21:39:29 <remlabm> not yet... looking now
21:42:24 <remlabm> thanx ;)
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23:07:42 <Amadeus> The SQL interaction with the latest version is very nice. Definately the selling point for me.
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