2010-07-08 GnuCash IRC logs

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02:54:17 <gour> blathijs: hiya...i just sent (another) reply gnucash-user about the possibility to use python-bindings to create gnucash reports/invoices externally using some python templating language...what do you think about it?
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04:12:36 <mib_hjfyxu> has anyone tried the MySQL connection with GNU
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06:03:35 <blathijs> gour: I guess running invoice reports externally would be an option
06:04:03 <blathijs> gour: It's probably not much more work than the current Report -> custom reports -> click report -> go to properties -> Select invoice method
06:04:17 <gour> blathijs: it would be cool
06:04:56 <gour> i0ve just found out about SimpleTAL (http://www.owlfish.com/software/simpleTAL/)
06:05:06 <gour> *i've
06:06:47 <blathijs> gour: You would have to check webkit as well, see if you can easily use that from python
06:07:02 <blathijs> And printing / pdf export from webkit
06:07:27 <gour> blathijs: will research a bit, although knowing python's ecosystem, there is probably something
06:07:55 <blathijs> true
06:09:50 <gour> pywebkitgtk, pywebkitqt...
06:19:38 <blathijs> :-)
07:13:57 <kimmo> looks like gibberish
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08:01:15 <gour> here is python script to convert html to pdf - http://thinkpython.blogspot.com/2009/08/convert-html-files-to-pdf.html
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08:23:53 <cts> ls
08:23:56 <cts> help
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08:25:39 <warlord> cts: it helps if you ask your question
08:26:02 <cts> Hi warlord!
08:26:03 <warlord> gour: i think it's external so therefore.........
08:26:36 <cts> Thank you!
08:26:52 <cts> Are gnucash binaries signed?
08:27:25 <warlord> blathijs: Setting up a custom report is MUCH easier than that. Just set it up how you want it and *leave it open*. Then when you want to print a new invoice, post it, then click on the open invoice-report tab, click options, then search for the new invoice. Click "OK". then click "Print". Done.
08:27:43 <cts> I use ubuntu and there is a gnucash in the repository, but I get a warning about nonsignedness...
08:27:43 <warlord> cts: no
08:27:53 <blathijs> warlord: Hmm, fair point :-)
08:27:55 <warlord> cts: Oh, UBUNTU... No clue. You'd have to ask them
08:28:01 <warlord> We don't create the ubuntu package.
08:28:19 <cts> I see. But you don't sign your sources, too?
08:28:29 <blathijs> cts: In Debian, it's not the binaries that are signed, but the archive metadata
08:28:48 <blathijs> cts: Did you add a custom source to get gnucash, or did you just use Ubuntu default stuff?
08:29:00 <cts> The ubuntu default stuff.
08:29:03 <cts> Why?
08:29:22 <cts> It's probably not the most recent version, is it?
08:29:31 <blathijs> cts: Could you paste(bin) the error you get?
08:29:46 <cts> It's only a warning, not an error...
08:30:32 <blathijs> even so
08:30:34 <warlord> whether or not we sign the source is irrelevant to what apt-get will tell you
08:31:45 <cts> oK, here it is. I used synaptic and selected gnucash. This leads to: Warning You are about to install software that can't be authenticated! Doing this could allow a malicious individual to damae or take control of your system.
08:31:58 <cts> This is when I hit Cancel.
08:32:32 <cts> oh, damage, not damae...
08:32:46 <cts> Well, what is it apt-get tells me here?
08:33:10 <blathijs> cts: Could you run "apt-get update" in a terminal and see if it says anything about a missing key?
08:33:19 <cts> One moment...
08:33:30 <blathijs> The most common cause of these errors is not that the repository data isn't signed, but that the correct key isn't available
08:33:31 <warlord> that's the ubuntu package signature
08:33:58 <blathijs> Yeah, this is not directly gnucash-related (But I happen to have some Debian know-how ;-)
08:35:50 <cts> WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! libgwenhywfar47 libaqbanking-data libaqbanking29 libaqhbci17 libaqofxconnect5 libktoblzcheck1c2a libaqbanking29-plugins aqbanking-tools libguile-ltdl-1 guile-1.6-libs guile-1.6 slib guile-1.6-slib libaqbanking-plugins-libgwenhywfar47 libqt3-mt libqbanking8 libaqbanking29-plugins-qt libhtml-tableex
08:36:07 <cts> Does not complain about keys.
08:36:46 <blathijs> That really sounds like you have a gnucash-specific apt source installed
08:36:53 <blathijs> cts: Could you pastebin your /etc/apt/sources.list?
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08:39:41 <cts> http://mibpaste.com/QE5Ndu
08:40:08 <cts> blathijs Like this?
08:40:53 <cts> blathijs: I updated from karmic some days ago. :)
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08:44:40 <blathijs> cts: Weird, I can't find anything gnucash-specific in there
08:45:42 <cts> blathijs: Well, I guess the gnucash package in the standard repository is unsigned?
08:46:27 <blathijs> cts: That really shouldn't happen. Packages are signed by the archive software automatically when they are uploaded, at least on Debian
08:46:28 <warlord> Or it's signed with a different key.
08:46:40 <blathijs> warlord: apt-get usually complains about missing keys, then
08:47:00 * warlord doesn't use a .deb-based system so wouldn't know.
08:47:17 <blathijs> cts: I don't know, you should probably ask Ubuntu people (I can't extrapolate any more suggestions from my Debian experience :-)
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08:47:56 <cts> blathijs: Thank you very much so far!
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09:47:10 <warlord> gour: for what it's worth, I'm more happy to work in guile for report hacking than I am to work in python. Eww.
09:47:51 <gour> warlord: well, if the eguile would provide for more separation between code & content...
09:48:58 <warlord> eguile is more separation than the current pure-guile!
09:49:34 <warlord> Honestly, I haven't really looked at the resultant eguile report implementation.
09:50:43 <warlord> (then again, I also feel python is just an abomination)
09:51:05 <gour> true..still, having separate (python) templating language + python would probably be more popular (aka: less steep learning curve)...that's the whole point - making customization in gnucash lowe(er)-hanging fruit
09:52:11 <warlord> I disagree. it will just change the membership of the small population that can edit it.
09:52:12 * gour is not python fan, but it's simply more useful/popular in general
09:52:30 <gour> with guile, i wouldn't probably find any use-case except gnucash
09:52:37 <warlord> python will be just as opqaue to the average user as guile is
09:52:43 <warlord> emacs?
09:52:47 <warlord> gimp?
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09:57:29 <gour1> well, gnucash is a diferent category - financial which is not so popular for geeks only, iow. python will be probably picked by non-geeks before elisp/fu-script
09:58:16 <gour1> and leaving customization to (e)guile makes it out of reach for many
09:59:04 <gour1> i can probably do it with eguile, but it would be easier in python
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10:00:48 <warlord> maybe. eguile is definitely a step in the right direction. Most people want to change the style/layout itself, and that's all HTML and CSS.
10:01:08 <warlord> You dont need to know guile to make those kinds of visual changes to an eguile report
10:02:08 <gour1> i need to add e.g. new data
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10:02:55 <warlord> See, *THAT* isn't something the average user is asking for.
10:03:52 <gour1> hmm...the invoice rules here in croatia asks for some more data to be seen on invoice...it's hard to expect gnucash will include such report
10:04:02 <gour1> who will do it for me?
10:05:12 <gour1> eg., i want to customize roundup tracker for our needs, and the docs is pretty clear, plenty of examples and TAL is not too difficult along with the docs how to add/adjust data for a new schema
10:05:39 <gour1> eguile docs/examples are quite sparse
10:05:58 <gour1> althoug, i agree, step in the right direction
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10:08:42 <warlord> Adding new data is not an 'average user' task. that's not 'customization'. that's effectively writing a new report/
10:09:11 <warlord> what additional data do you need?
10:09:13 <gour> s/new data/static data
10:12:00 <warlord> Oh, STATIC data? That just requires adding additional HTML to the template.
10:17:44 <warlord> That requires zero knowledge of sche,e
10:17:46 <warlord> scheme even
10:22:54 <blathijs> I do agree that python is easier for the average tech user than scheme (the syntax is just a bit more funky, people are used to imperative programming)
10:23:05 <blathijs> OTOH, for the non-tech users, either is voodoo :-)
10:24:06 <warlord> blathijs: I'm more worried about the non-tech user. A tech user can learn a new language, and frankly scheme is pretty damn easy to learn. Historically it's been a freshman-CS training language!
10:24:22 <blathijs> And I think the data/layout separation could be improved, but that is just a problem with the current code, not eguile in general
10:24:50 <warlord> could be. I haven't looked at the implementation.
10:24:51 <blathijs> warlord: Yeah, so I think sticking with eguile is probably fine, _if_ we improve the report stuff a bit
10:25:10 <blathijs> One think that is annoying, though, is that map is the wrong way around for use in templates
10:25:27 <blathijs> (map (lambda ... multiple lines of template ...) the_list)
10:25:55 <blathijs> But that's a matter of defining a "for-each" or whatever function that simply reverts map
10:26:01 <blathijs> or there probably is something like that already
10:26:40 <warlord> there is a (for-each .. ) in scheme
10:27:01 <warlord> But it's still (for-each (lambda ... ) list)
10:27:51 <warlord> so structurally there's not much difference
10:29:28 <blathijs> Hmm, you would want (for-each variable list (expression-using-variable))
10:29:34 <blathijs> so without the lambda even
10:29:46 <blathijs> Isn't there something like that?
10:31:45 <warlord> not in scheme, npo
10:32:17 <warlord> I suppose you could write a macro that worked that way...
10:32:46 <warlord> but there's not an easy way to get to the end of the list and pop off the last element.
10:38:35 <warlord> blathijs: For example, you could:
10:38:42 <warlord> (define (last l) (if (null? (cdr l)) (car l) (last (cdr l))))
10:40:36 <warlord> then you could define a macro (probably, I think) that could translate (functional-for-each ... (lambda)) into (for-each (lambda) ...)
10:40:54 <warlord> (note that 'last' wouldn't remove the lambda from the list, so it's not ... sufficient)
10:54:36 <blathijs> why do you need to pop the last element of the list? Huh?
10:55:20 <blathijs> Because a macro gets the arguments as a list or something?
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10:59:32 <warlord> everything in scheme gets arguments as a list.
10:59:50 <warlord> that's the L in LISP (from which scheme is derived)
11:12:09 <blathijs> Ah, I think I noticed that, yes.
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11:12:58 <blathijs> but in this case it would be a list of two elements (the lambda and the list to loop over), so "getting at the last element" means "getting at the second element", right?
11:13:26 <warlord> Nope
11:13:35 <warlord> Well, I suppose you COULD make it that way...
11:13:53 <blathijs> I think I haven't quite grasped scheme quite yet, then :-)
11:14:54 <blathijs> You're saying that (foo some_list some_value) passes the arguments to foo as a single list containing the elements in some_list followed by some_value?
11:15:11 <blathijs> If so, how could I have (foo some_list other_list) and still know which elements belong where?
11:15:17 <warlord> Oh, I'm wrong.
11:15:26 <warlord> it is (for-each (lambda ...) (list ...))
11:16:17 <warlord> So we could (define-macro (functional-for-each the-list the-lambda) (for-each the-lambda the-list))
11:17:40 <warlord> (maybe)
11:18:16 <blathijs> Could we also (define-macro (functional-for-each the-variable the-list the-expression) (for-each (lambda the-variable the-expression) the-list) ?
11:18:54 <warlord> Ah, not define-macro, just define
11:20:44 <warlord> Nope, that doesn't work, blathijs. You can try it out in the guile interpreter.
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12:47:33 <subone> What would be the proper way to setup "savings" so that money would still remain physically in my checking account, but I could list in in gnucash somehow that i was saving a certain amount of money specifically for buying something in the future? would i create a sub account?
12:48:27 <davr> I don't know if you could really do it that way, since once you transfer money out of your checking account in gnucash, the balance will no longer match what is at your bank
12:48:52 <davr> I haven't used them, but you might look into the Budget feature
12:48:54 <subone> not even if it is a sub account?
12:49:18 <davr> 'subaccounts' are just regular accounts, the fact that it's a sub account just changes how it's displayed in your main account list
12:51:18 <subone> ic
12:51:41 <subone> so it would show how i want in the main accounts window, but it would be confusing in reports and such huh
13:03:10 <kimmo> subone, why could it not be a separate account?
13:03:39 <kimmo> I have 3 separate cash accounts for example; "Cash at hand", "Change jar", and "Emergency money"
13:04:06 <subone> but then i would have to carry around the cash all the time? i dont like that idea
13:04:09 <kimmo> just alter the reports so that you set "Parent account totals" to "Subtotals"
13:04:23 <kimmo> why would you have to carry the cash around?
13:04:45 <subone> idk maybe i misunderstood, what do you mean alter the reports
13:05:10 <subone> so you are saying make a subaccount of checking account>saving for item a
13:05:44 <kimmo> yes
13:06:06 <subone> i am interested in budgets, but thats not really what i want davr. I want to make it clear that that money cant/shouldnt be spent
13:06:06 <kimmo> so that you only have 1 actual bank account, and that has an accounting sub-account
13:06:14 <subone> ok
13:06:53 <kimmo> so either just "Savings account" and "Savings account.reserve", or "Savings account.normal" and "Savings account.reserve" accounts
13:07:29 <kimmo> then when you run eg. the balance sheet report, simply set the pulldown option for "parent account total" to "subtotal"
13:07:51 <kimmo> and of course expand the report to go down enough levels
13:10:10 <subone> i havent done any reports yet, so i dont follow, but at least i know this will work
13:15:58 <kimmo> it will
13:16:55 <kimmo> in the main accounts window you can also get the "Current" column as opposed to the "Total" column (If you, like me, insert future known transactions in the books), but that doesn't work for subaccount totals
13:23:01 <blathijs> subone: Getting an actual savings account with your bank (so you get more interest as well) might be a good idea?
13:23:06 <blathijs> I've recently thought about this as well
13:23:53 <subone> i dont save money that long :p
13:24:13 <blathijs> long enough to make a record in Gnucash, apparently? :-)
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13:24:24 <subone> 1% interest doesnt sound that enticing anyway when you consider i wont have "checking" access to the account
13:24:35 <blathijs> If you really want to do this the "accounting way", I think you should stop looking at your bank account to see if you can spend money, but instead look at your equity
13:25:00 <subone> what do you mean
13:25:12 <blathijs> I'm not sure I've figured it out exactly yet :-)
13:25:46 <subone> well for now i just need some way to record this :p
13:25:52 <blathijs> Your equity == stuff you have - stuff you owe, right?
13:26:10 <subone> the sub acounts normal and savings seems to work fine for now
13:26:27 <blathijs> Hmm, I'm not sure if this will work out, nvm :-)
13:26:47 <subone> as was mentioned earlier though, this money is remaining in my checking account, so it goes to reason it should be listed as such
13:27:14 <subone> i just made two sub accounts to "Checking Account" and made the parent a placeholder
13:30:56 <subone> that way i can do something like "Checking:Normal>Checking:Rent" for a few pay periods, and then at the end of the month i can do "Checking:Rent>Expenses:Rent" for example
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15:10:47 <warlord> davr: You're wrong. The way to do what subone wanted *IS* to use a subaccount. It's called "bucket accounting".
15:13:38 <warlord> however, there as no need to make the parent a placeholder per-se. Just use subaccounts for storage of funds for budgeting purposes. You can still reconcile the whole thing together; just click "include subaccounts" on the reconciliation dialog.
16:10:46 * gary hrms, the employee payroll guide doesn't seem to make sense when you've setup uk vat accounts
16:11:56 <gary> it suggests that you put gross salary in expenses. But the default accounts come with a net salary account in expenses.
16:15:03 <warlord> gary: in Expenses?
16:18:55 <gary> Yeah, it suggests decrease bank account by net salary, increase expenses salaries by gross salary, then do the liabilites and expenses relating to taxes.
16:20:03 <gary> But if you have an expenses, net salaries account (which you get if you start with a uk vat account) obviously the guide doesn't make sense :)
16:37:10 <warlord> Ummm... Sure it does. Gross Salary is 5000. Net Salary (into your Asset) is, say, 2500. The other 2500 are your tax withholdings.
16:37:29 <warlord> BUT... that only makes sense for the Payee.. For the company it's completely different.
16:39:24 <gary> This is for the company.
16:48:02 <gary> I was expecting to do this, but it doesn't tally up...
16:48:29 <gary> Decrease bank account by gross salary
16:49:24 <gary> increase expenses, employee net salaries by the net salary
16:49:56 <gary> increase a reserve bank account by the total of the taxes
16:50:22 <gary> At this point, i'm still even... however I then also expected to be able to do...
16:51:10 <gary> increase liabilities, owed tax/ni by the total of the taxes
16:51:55 <gary> At which point I have an imbalance of the total of the taxes
16:53:17 <gary> so there's defeintely something i'm misunderstanding
16:54:21 <gary> presumably I should increase expenses, income tax and expenses, national insurance by the amount of the taxes too.
16:54:40 <gary> But then why would i bother with the laiabilites part at all
16:55:33 <gary> this is where the example in the manual makes more sense
16:56:26 <gary> because you increase expenses, salaries by the gross amount, not the net amount.
16:58:24 <gary> if I had gross amount like the example, my accounts would balance
16:59:00 <gary> so i'm reallly confused as to exactly how i'm supposed to correctly enter it :(
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17:24:46 <gour> warlord: if there would be guile implementation of TAL templating language, it would be great. if you never worked with TAL, just take a look at and aim under 1)--3) in section 10 (http://docs.zope.org/zope2/zope2book//ZPT.html) and/or you can inspect some template at https://svn.roundup-tracker.org/svnroot/roundup/roundup/trunk/share/roundup/templates/classic/html/
17:25:13 <gour> one can loa
17:25:34 <gour> *load template in html editor and get almost wysiwyg layout
17:26:29 <gour> it's even better to inspect how does template pages load from released tarball
17:26:41 <jsled> I love tal-based languages, but there's no need for them.
17:26:48 <jsled> here, anywyas
17:26:54 <jsled> what's wrong iwth eguile?
17:30:36 <gour> the point is that tal separates template & code...'end-user' can very easily load tal-based template in html editor and see how it will look like, while loading eguile *.scm report requires lot of 'blind' tweaking
17:30:59 <jsled> tal doesn't separate template and code.
17:31:13 <gour> tweaking report is more designer's task than programming one...
17:31:42 <jsled> and you can't *effectively* load a tal template in a wyswig editor to get a very useful view
17:31:44 <gour> tal uses attributes which are 'hidden when loaded as html page in editor
17:31:56 <jsled> I know what TAL is.
17:32:22 <jsled> and if all you iteration and conditional logic isn't evaluated in the context of real data, the template's not very interesting.
17:32:24 <gour> i can load tal page in ff and see how the report will look like...nothing similar with eguila
17:32:27 <gour> *eguile
17:33:58 <warlord> gour: how would the editor show you an iterator (ala an invoice line-item iterator)
17:34:00 <gour> and my point(s) correspond to the above mentioned ones referenced in http://docs.zope.org/zope2/zope2book//ZPT.html
17:34:40 <warlord> gary: Why wouldn't it work the same way? Expenses:Gross Salary (5000), Expenses:Net Salary (2500), Expenses:Taxes:... (sums to 2500)
17:35:13 <gour> warlord: i would, at least, get one line, right?
17:35:57 <jsled> and conditional sections?
17:36:31 <jsled> look, TAL is awesome. but not seeing real data is not a good way to design
17:36:46 <davr> in conditional sections, you'd see both the true and false parts at the same time
17:36:50 <jsled> focus on making it trivial to iterate over twekas with real data.
17:37:00 <gour> in any case, i believe there is no point arguing if you think that eguile is appropriate way for end-users to customize reports in gnucash
17:37:14 <jsled> I don't have a horse in this race, really.
17:37:15 <jsled> :)
17:37:32 <warlord> gour: I dont think TAL is any better (or worse) than eguile. Just different..
17:37:51 <warlord> it solves the same problems in similar (albeit slightly different) ways.
17:37:59 <jsled> worse ways. :)
17:38:49 <jsled> regardless, I don't think a system that didn't use TAL would prevent me from working on it.
17:38:59 <gour> warlord: ok. we can agree to disagree...you can ask on mailing list or do the poll...the thread on gnucash-users was long enough...the potential gnucash users probably did not even express their dissatisfaction with the present customization features
17:39:17 <jsled> do a poll to do what?
17:39:24 <warlord> That's because 99% of them haven't had the chance to play with e-guile because it hasn't been released yet.
17:39:40 <warlord> So it's a bit premature to ask anyone anything.
17:40:25 <gour> well, the point is that gnucash is mature piece of software and its customization features are quite behind the rest
17:40:33 <warlord> gour: I'm looking at https://svn.roundup-tracker.org/svnroot/roundup/roundup/trunk/share/roundup/templates/classic/html/home.classlist.html --- I have NO CLUE how this will display with real data.
17:40:48 <warlord> gour: right, and now we have e-guile, going into the next release.
17:40:52 <warlord> that's a step forward from what's in 2.2
17:42:02 <gour> who is actviely working on eguile? chris dennis only?
17:42:45 <gour> i could probably find my way with eguile, but would probably embrace external way via python bindings if it becomes available
17:43:12 <warlord> gour, take a step back. Assume python == scheme. Step forward again. Now re-evaluate.
17:43:50 <warlord> Your argument stems from "I know python. I dont know scheme. Therefore scheme-based templating is bad."
17:44:17 <gour> warlord: no, i do not know python, but consider it's easier to learn for non-programmer
17:44:20 <warlord> (where "bad" can be read as "useless", "deficient", etc.)
17:44:52 <warlord> gour: really? personally I find python nearly impossible to grok, and I'm a seasoned programmer.
17:44:58 <gour> ..and much more popular than scheme...
17:45:17 <jsled> that's the interesting argument: people can more easily pick up python than scheme.
17:45:23 <jsled> it's more approachable.
17:45:27 <warlord> is it?
17:45:33 <gour> as i wrote earlier...i do not see many places (aka projects) where i'd have need to deploy scheme/guile
17:45:34 <jsled> I think so, yes.
17:46:30 <gour> don't forget that i'm learning haskell and like FP...but demand for FP is, sadly, way behind python & co.
17:47:03 <gour> 'batteries included' with python are not comparable with scheme...
17:47:07 <warlord> I honestly dont know. guile/scheme was chosen more than 10 years ago by a long-gone set of gnucash developers. I have no personal investment in it (other than that I know scheme, but dont know python). I dont have a strong preference to what is used. HOWEVER I do have a strong dislike for half-assed jobs of partial migration from one technology to another.
17:47:23 <jsled> gour: there's no incompatability there.
17:47:51 <jsled> oh, you said "comparable"
17:47:53 <jsled> heh.
17:47:55 <jsled> and agreed.
17:47:55 <warlord> LOL
17:48:12 <jsled> though I'm not sure it matters too much in the report context.
17:48:46 <warlord> gour: find a developer who's willing to rip out the scheme, replace it with python, and at the same time replace 100% of the existing reporting functionality in the new system....
17:49:30 <warlord> (or find a way to have both co-exist so you can slowly migrate from one set to the other... but you would need to be able to support both scheme and python simultaneously... not an easy proposition, I dont think)
17:50:02 <jsled> the big problem I ran into is all the report options stuff is in a weird mix of C and scheme.
17:50:14 <jsled> that's about where I left the project, trying to figure out how to map it all over.
17:50:23 <gour> jsled: it is the question of investing time into learning python vs. scheme....learning python seems much more profitable than learning scheme/guile for someone who is considering learning some bits of the language to start 'programming' by tweaking reports in his/her preferable financial app...i'm speaking about pragmatism not that i like python so much or dislike scheme/guile
17:50:24 <warlord> yep.
17:50:25 <jsled> if I cared to pick it back up, I'd not try ot do that.
17:50:44 <jsled> gour: I don't think people make that evaluation, per se.
17:51:00 <warlord> gour: but you're missing the point.. For MANY of the reporting tasks the average user is asking for, they dont NEED to know scheme if they use e-guile.
17:51:02 <jsled> (though I'd probably not disagree)
17:51:58 <warlord> They just need to know: Add the following to the template <p>Company Tax ID: 1623-122-1123</p><p>Bank Transit Number: 012345678</p><p>Deposit Account: 81623435</p>
17:52:04 <gour> warlord: markjenkinsparit is probably the person who could do it
17:53:02 <warlord> if you find the $$ to pay him to do it, sure.
17:55:15 <warlord> My point is that anyone who wants to adjust layout, colors, or even add static data to reports can do it in eguile without learning scheme.
17:55:54 <warlord> only report writers who want to access gnucash data in new and unique ways need to know scheme. but that's NOT the vast majority of people.
17:57:18 <gour> that's maybe because it's not easy to do it
17:58:23 <warlord> or it's because the existing reports are widely customizable to meet most needs.
17:58:36 <gour> eg. roundup tracker is used in different scennarios because it's easy to customize it for one's own specific needs...otoh, bugzilla can be used for (probably) one purpose only
17:58:48 <warlord> even at the end of that long boring thread, the original question was answered with a how-to using the existing reports!
17:59:09 <warlord> I've seen BZ used for many many purposes. Also RT.
17:59:13 <jsled> gour: but the user bases are pretty different.
17:59:43 <gour> if you say that report writing is not for many people, it may be that the current design is such, and not that there is no interest among gnucash users to do it
18:01:01 <jsled> I appreciate the chicken-and-egg nature of it.
18:01:16 <jsled> but it's not black-and-white, either.
18:01:28 <jsled> as warload points out: simple changes will be much more tractable for all users, with eguile.
18:01:45 <jsled> and a large class of users will be able to progress into "real" guile if/when they want to.
18:01:53 <gour> warlord: finally you confirmed that e.g. business features are satisfying your 'itch'..and that's fine...but it's not good to extrapolate that everyoe has just the same itching sensation as myself
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18:02:07 <jsled> and, yeah, I'd ultimately say that it'd be easier for them and for even more people to do so if it was a more "regular" language like python.
18:03:46 <gour> jsled: that's basically all i want to say...langauge like python and some well-know templating engien behind it
18:05:45 <warlord> gour: I'm not tied to scheme. I'm just tied to NOT losing functionality. If someone could come up with a way to migrate slowly, great! I'll be behind them all the way. But it's not easy. And I refuse to allow a half-migration that doesn't provide 100% coverage of existing reports.
18:06:21 <warlord> So it either needs to be a 100% drop-in replacement.. Or it needs to be some half-and-half state where gnucash supports both and reports can be migrated from one to the other.
18:06:39 <warlord> I just dont know if the latter is technically feasible.
18:06:48 <warlord> The former is... but it's a LOT LOT LOOOOTTTT of work.
18:07:07 * gour nods
18:08:01 <warlord> e-guile is still a step in the right direction. It provides some level of templating, so for basic layout needs users DONT need to know scheme anymore. This is a GOOD thing.
18:08:04 <gour> i also do not think it's good idea to throw present solution without having new one ready
18:08:42 <warlord> Sure, it's still scheme instead of python, or perl, or haskall, or ruby, or some other language-du-jour. but it still provides templating.
18:09:29 <gour> don't you think that, at least, using some more 'standard' templating engine would be more apporptiate?
18:10:59 <warlord> That's the great thing about standards.. Everyone can have one!
18:11:16 <warlord> I'll note that e-guile was kinda based off the php templating standard.
18:11:23 <warlord> (well, not kinda.. it was)
18:20:14 <jsled> gour: the eguile form of templating is more "standard" than TAL.
18:20:21 <jsled> very few people do TAL.
18:20:35 <jsled> pretty much everyone copies the original php style, no?
18:20:48 <jsled> well, that's not quite right
18:21:30 <jsled> there's two popular forms: the php style (and jsp and eguile and …): <tag><tag><%escape ... %> <%= print this %><tag><tag>
18:22:34 <jsled> and the modern everything else style: usually "{}" or "$" or "%"-denoted sections
18:22:51 <jsled> (smarty, django-templates, jsp Expression Language, ...)
18:24:24 <jsled> oh, and rails does "<% %>"? I didn't realize.
18:25:30 <gour> i played a bit with django, but somehow like TAL more...it's more simple & powerful
18:25:35 <gour> imho
18:25:42 <jsled> gour: I do genshi in django.
18:26:14 <jsled> eg. http://github.com/jsled/brew-journal/blob/master/app/templates/index.html
18:26:56 <gour> jsled: genshi would be good as well...jinja2...many options
18:27:05 <jsled> probably not the most interesting from a template; http://github.com/jsled/brew-journal/blob/master/app/templates/user/index.html has a bit more logic.
18:28:07 <gour> let someone provide SimpleTAL in guile... ;)
18:28:14 <jsled> heh
18:36:01 <gour> it's getting late...we'll resume tomorrow
18:36:04 <gour> good night
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18:42:51 <warlord> good night gour
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21:39:15 <ElBano> help
21:39:22 <ElBano> i upgraded and now online banking does nothing
21:39:28 <ElBano> it does nothing at all no matter what i select under online banking
21:43:50 <ElBano> oh man i think it deleted my accounts
21:46:17 <warlord> ElBano: upgraded from what to what?
21:46:35 <ElBano> apparently the new fedora upgraded it to 2.3.13 or something
21:46:40 <ElBano> but it deleted online banking settings
21:48:44 <ElBano> oh that's nice, now it just crashes
21:49:02 <ElBano> when i run get transactions
21:49:38 <ElBano> 20:49:29
21:49:38 <ElBano> Resolving hostname "service2.usaa.com" ...
21:49:38 <ElBano> 20:49:29
21:49:38 <ElBano> IP address is 167.24.21.44
21:49:40 <ElBano> 20:49:29
21:49:42 <ElBano> Sending request...
21:49:44 <ElBano> 20:49:29
21:49:46 <ElBano> Connecting to bank...
21:49:48 <ElBano> 20:49:31
21:49:50 <ElBano> Connected.
21:49:52 <ElBano> 20:49:31
21:49:56 <ElBano> Waiting for response...
21:49:59 <ElBano> 20:49:31
21:50:00 <ElBano> Network error while waiting for response
21:50:02 <ElBano> 20:49:31
21:50:04 <ElBano> Finished. You may close this window.
21:50:06 <ElBano> woops, sorry
21:50:18 <warlord> So you upgraded from Fedora...?? to F13
21:50:21 <ElBano> yes
21:51:32 <ElBano> wow this sucks
21:51:37 <warlord> That probably changed the version of AqB...
21:51:38 <ElBano> its saying there are no transactions during that period
21:52:00 <warlord> Did you migrate your AqB settings? I think they moved from .aqbanking to .banking?
21:52:14 <ElBano> no, how do i do that?
21:52:47 <warlord> ElBano: just relax, your data is all there. We just need to tell AqB to find it (or you need to set it up again)
21:52:56 <ElBano> ok, what do i do to migrate?
21:53:04 <warlord> Your AqB settings..
21:53:26 <ElBano> yes, how...
21:53:37 <ElBano> is there some migration tool?
21:53:38 <warlord> Like I said, move .aqbanking to .banking (or vice-versa -- I dont recall specifically)
21:54:18 <ElBano> lessie
21:54:36 <ElBano> nope, wont migrate
21:54:45 <ElBano> i had an .aqbanking folder
21:54:55 <ElBano> wait, hmm
21:55:03 <ElBano> oh woops
21:55:41 <ElBano> nope
21:55:44 <ElBano> that really stinks
21:55:57 <warlord> what do you mean "wont migrate"?
21:56:02 <warlord> you just rename it.
21:56:12 <ElBano> i did
21:56:42 <warlord> and then you restarted gnucash?
21:56:42 <ElBano> hold sec
21:57:06 <ElBano> yeah, it wont migrate
21:57:08 <ElBano> i renamed it
21:57:12 <ElBano> nothing transfers
21:57:38 <ElBano> in fact, it just deleted all my settings
21:57:41 <ElBano> that's really great
21:57:53 <ElBano> hold on, i think i still have a backup
21:58:44 <warlord> Is it really that hard to re-connect to your banks?
21:58:47 <ElBano> yeah
21:58:50 <ElBano> i have many
21:58:56 <ElBano> it seems it blanks it
21:59:05 <ElBano> if you rename the folders, gnucash just blanks your banking settings
21:59:08 <warlord> Note that this isn't a gnucash problem, it's Aqbanking.
21:59:17 <warlord> Hmm...
21:59:27 <warlord> I honestly dont know what versions of AqB fedora shipped.
21:59:38 <warlord> and I dont personally use any of the online banking feature.
21:59:42 <ElBano> this is weird
21:59:47 <ElBano> i have settings.conf
21:59:49 <ElBano> and it has all my settings
21:59:51 <ElBano> in ~/.banking
21:59:56 <ElBano> what am i missing?
22:00:01 <warlord> I dont know.
22:00:04 <ElBano> i was mistaken, it doesn't blank it
22:00:06 <ElBano> it just doesn't use it
22:00:08 <warlord> Seriously, I dont know.
22:00:22 <ElBano> hmm
22:00:27 <ElBano> it recreates the .aqbanking directory
22:00:29 <warlord> You should try sending mail to gnucash-user and asking. I'm sure other people have had this problem
22:00:34 <warlord> okay, so it's still using .aqb
22:00:40 <ElBano> but what is .banking?
22:01:33 <warlord> it's a different aqbanking directory -- I dont remember if it's the old name or the new name. it could be the old name
22:01:42 <ElBano> it's like it doesn't read from either directory for the settings
22:01:55 <warlord> from which older version of Fedora did you upgrade?
22:01:59 <ElBano> f12
22:02:03 <ElBano> or it doesn't use settings.conf now, it uses a dir
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22:03:06 <warlord> I dont know. HOnestly, you should send mail to gnucash-user about it. Or better yet, the aqbanking lists.
22:03:11 <ElBano> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=571621
22:03:32 <ElBano> this is confusing
22:04:34 <warlord> Did you follow those instructions?
22:04:35 <ElBano> oh here we go
22:05:20 <ElBano> got it, thx
22:08:07 <warlord> it's working now?
22:08:10 <ElBano> yup
22:08:27 <warlord> cool
22:08:46 <ElBano> thx, cya
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