2010-06-28 GnuCash IRC logs

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05:20:31 <woble> Hey there, I need some help with setting up an advanced GnuCash account. I have a group of people and an "organisation". the people pay money to the organisation (membership fee), but can also buy things for eachother (this has to be levelled out). The organisation buys things as well. Should i model this as a "lots of bank accounts"?
05:22:13 <blathijs> What do you mean with "buy things for eachother" ?
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05:23:40 <woble> Its a group of students, user A can buy beer for user B on day 1.. and user B buys a pizza for user A on day 2
05:24:36 <woble> And the group has a common bank account which is used to pay for larger things like a vacation lodge
05:24:45 <blathijs> Ah, right.
05:24:56 <fell> And what has the organisation to do with that?
05:25:43 <blathijs> It offers bookkeeping to the members, I guess :-)
05:25:47 <woble> the organisation is the "board", basically just the people who lead the group. Its the central bank account + central cash stack
05:26:05 <blathijs> Having a single balance account per member would probably work
05:26:24 <woble> So just a bank account for each member, and then another one for the central account?
05:26:36 <blathijs> Not sure if it would be an asset or liability, not sure it really matters
05:27:04 <blathijs> I wouldn't call them bank accounts, they're just accounts in gnucash
05:27:05 <woble> as long as the numbers are right it doesnt matter. But the member can be either an asset or liability to the central account
05:27:14 <woble> depending on how much they paid for already
05:27:26 <blathijs> Yeah, but switchting the type of the account all the time doesn't make sense :-)
05:27:49 <woble> figured that out :). but GnuCash doesnt really mind if an asset turns negative?
05:28:00 <fell> Lets say the organisation is the owner from the bank account and the organisation is owned by the members.
05:28:31 <woble> that would be a fair description
05:28:44 <fell> The you should create in equity an account for each member, where the clearing is done.
05:30:57 <woble> Ah, and then I will be able to transfer from equity to equity as well :)
05:36:24 <fell> Beer: 10 € B->A, Pizza 5 € A->B ...
05:39:53 <woble> I could also model the situation a bit easier hmmz.. let every payment run through the central billing account
05:40:32 <woble> eg. B buys pizza ++ -> central billing -> -- user A, user C and user D
05:45:42 <fell> It depends of the question: pay B with private money or org's money.
05:46:41 <woble> maybe i should draw out the schema :). its just not standard.. but i know there are many groups looking for a solution (use excel as of now)
05:48:18 <fell> Which language settings are you using?
05:48:25 <woble> english
05:48:47 <woble> not native but i do prefer it.
05:49:59 <fell> with LANG=de_DE you could see a bunch of templates for Companies and other orgs.
05:50:56 <woble> lets try it (not German though).
05:52:28 <fell> eg. SKR49 is for coops.
05:54:57 <fell> as the german law is very complicated you would usually only need 10% of the accounts in that template.
05:55:19 <woble> :)
05:59:14 <fell> but you can hide the branches, which you currently don't use.
06:00:07 <woble> it looks quiet complicated, but ill figure it out :)
06:00:14 <woble> examples are the best way to learn things
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06:59:38 <woble> Hmmz, i cant give a start sum to an equity account
07:07:26 <blathijs> Funky
07:08:03 <blathijs> woble: Just create an initial transaction to set the starting sum, then?
07:08:20 <blathijs> (and put the other side on the real equity account or something?)
07:08:21 <woble> Yeah, thats what i did, not its imbalance but i guess ican delete the imbalance
07:08:44 <woble> should a user who paid in advance be red as equity?
07:08:57 <woble> Its money i shouldnt own
07:10:56 <blathijs> Just move money from that user's account to the bank account
07:11:48 <woble> hmmz, it looks good now, a user with red equity lowers my assets, and that true since i owe him money
07:12:07 <woble> a user with black equity owes me money
07:12:29 <blathijs> And then when you need to actually charge money from the user (e.g., it's membership fee time), move money from the user's equity account to the "membership fees" income account (or perhaps backwards, depending on how you look at it)
07:13:22 <woble> I think im just going to move the membership fee's to the bank account as for now
07:13:30 <woble> but yes, it looks like it works :)
07:14:50 <woble> wait, it doesnt.. it withdraws it from equity but doesnt add it to bank
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07:51:55 <woble> hmmz, expenses are profits? Transfer expense -> equity, expense goes negative. But i get profit?
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09:06:30 <woble> Time to watch soccer :).
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11:06:41 <davr> @tell woble: Yes, a negative expense would be a profit. It's not too common though...
11:06:41 <gncbot> davr: The operation succeeded.
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13:58:51 <woble> This afternoon I asked some questions about setting up a system for groups. I kind of clarified the question down here; http://pastebin.com/QmVtaxb4 since i felt it wasn't really clear this afternoon. Right now i'm still struggling with the right +/- value's in the equity.
14:00:28 <warlord> woble, just pick whether people are generally owed money or owe money to choose an Asset or Liability for each one.. Keep in mind that A = -L so you dont need two accounts
14:01:06 <woble> So i should see the users als liabality
14:01:53 <warlord> or asset.
14:01:55 <warlord> depends
14:01:59 <warlord> doesnt really matter.
14:02:40 <blathijs> Someone suggested to use an equity this afternoon, which probably works just as well?
14:03:00 <woble> Well, equity seems to work
14:03:14 <warlord> Personally I'd use A or L instead of Eq.
14:03:16 <woble> but it doesnt allow me to include the contribution the right way
14:03:58 <warlord> define "the right way"
14:05:17 <woble> if the user buys the duct tape (example) I transfer money from contribution -> equity. Somehow something goes wrong with + / -
14:06:33 <warlord> woble: more likely, Equity is showing it sign-reversed. This is why I suggest using A or L instead of Eq because the numbers might make more sense.
14:06:47 <woble> I'll try that :)
14:06:59 <woble> How would you suggest I merge in the contribution thing?
14:07:06 <warlord> GnuCash sign-reverses certain account types because certain 'credit' type accounts are generally always negative, so it shows them as a positive instead.
14:07:18 <warlord> What do you mean, "merge the contribution thing"?
14:07:31 <warlord> It's all just about making the correct Splits
14:07:45 <blathijs> woble: How does buying duct tape influence the contribution?
14:08:24 <woble> Well, I deduct contribution at the start of the year (from the user saldo). User has to pay the contribution troughout the year by putting cash on the bank account or buying things for the general needs
14:08:29 <woble> end of the year the user saldo should be at 0 again
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14:09:37 <warlord> Sounds like Saldo should be an Asset. The "contribution" is Income.
14:09:44 <blathijs> so that means that at the start of the year, you create a transaction involving the "Contribution" income account and the user's saldo
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14:10:01 <warlord> Then each payment they "pay down" the asset
14:10:09 <blathijs> during the year, whenever the user buys something, effectively the organisation owes the user a bit of money
14:10:10 <woble> yes
14:10:43 <warlord> and that money owed is taken off the user's outstanding balance.
14:10:46 <blathijs> so each time they buy duct tape, you create a transaction involving the "Duct tape" expense account and the user's saldo
14:11:21 <warlord> So if you're in a situation where the users are always owing YOU money, then that's an asset. If, however, you are always owing THEM money, treat it as a liability.
14:11:41 <woble> they can both
14:11:44 <warlord> blathijs: "User's Saldo?" What do you mean by Saldo
14:11:46 <woble> some pay in advance.. or buy to much
14:11:47 <blathijs> and at the end of the year, if the user still owes money, he transfers the money to the organisation's bank account and you create a transaction involving the bank account and the user's saldo, making sure the saldo 0
14:12:10 <blathijs> warlord: An account that you create for each user, either asset or liability probably
14:12:25 <warlord> what's the definition of the word "saldo"? I know of no word in English.
14:12:40 <woble> amount of money
14:12:47 <blathijs> if at the end of the year, the user has paid to much, you transfer money to them and make the same transaction (but with the money going the other way)
14:13:06 <blathijs> warlord: Hmm, I thought you first used "saldo" :-)
14:13:07 <woble> we usually just drag it over to another year, but that not a big issue
14:13:10 <warlord> 'balance'?
14:13:20 <warlord> Nope, woble did. I thought it was a user's name.
14:13:23 <blathijs> warlord: Yeah, balance would be ok
14:13:34 <woble> i did indeed :)
14:14:04 <blathijs> woble: Alternatively, if someone has paid to much, you can just leave the amount for the next year
14:14:26 <woble> thats what we do :). in excel..
14:14:27 <blathijs> woble: If someone pays in advance, just create a transaction involving the bank account and the user's balance
14:14:55 <warlord> Right, a direct payment from a user would be User -> Bank
14:14:57 <blathijs> and if users buy things for eachother, just create transactions involving user balances only
14:15:09 <woble> sounds right to me :)
14:16:07 <blathijs> You just need to make sure to cleanly separate an actual payment (bank transfer) from the actual obligations (yearly membership, costs made by users)
14:16:54 <woble> thats the hard part :). Add the confusion with liability and assets. (a user who ows me money is a black asset?) etc. and its becomming hard! :)
14:17:38 <warlord> woble: dont worry about asset v liability. just pick one and use it for all.
14:17:54 <warlord> a negative asset is a liability.
14:18:04 <warlord> so they are equivalent.....
14:19:10 <woble> I'm going to switch it over to my native language, since i had economics in the past. might make it easier.
14:24:42 <blathijs> woble: If you think it helps to ask questions in dutch, feel free to query me :-)
14:25:48 <woble> thanks. I might have to.. economics isn't my favorite subject :P.
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14:38:08 <woble> blathijs, can I also fix translation errors somewhere, launchpad page? :)
14:38:28 <blathijs> woble: Dunno about that, warlord probably does
14:39:20 <warlord> woble: you need to work with the translation team. Not launchpad. But only if you're running the most recent 2.3.x release or svn trunk. translation errors in 2.2.x are ignorable.
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14:46:30 <blathijs> warlord: Btw, we recently discussed the addition of a counter-format option, do you remember?
14:46:52 <blathijs> warlord: I've finished the main code patches, and now I'm working on the GUI
14:46:59 <warlord> ok
14:47:02 <warlord> it wont get into 2.4.0
14:47:05 <warlord> but thanks
14:47:28 <blathijs> If I can get it in eventually, I'm happy :-)
14:47:39 <blathijs> but I'm still having some issues
14:48:32 <blathijs> warlord: I'm trying to add a counters tab, to the file -> properties window, which allows changing both the current value of the counter and the format
14:48:42 <blathijs> I have code which does that and works, but it's still a bit ugly
14:49:50 <blathijs> The biggest issue I'm having is that all of the options-code is intended to work using the "options" kvp slot
14:50:35 <blathijs> while the counter values and formats are stored in the "counters" and "counter_formats" kvp slots (which again contain "gncInvoice", "gncCustomer", etc. slots
14:50:48 <blathijs> these "counters" and "counter_formats" slots are siblings to the "options" slot
14:52:20 <warlord> The counters were never designed to be options.
14:52:51 <blathijs> Well, they aren't, so that makes sense. But I do want them to show up in that dialog :-)
14:52:58 <blathijs> What I've done now, is create a string and number range option using the gnc:make-string-option and gnc:make-number-range-option functions
14:54:14 <blathijs> and then replace the kvp->scm and scm->kvp functions (using vector-set!) which are stored inside the option with functions that ignore the kvp path they get passed (which points to the "options" slot) and just store directly into "counters" or "counter_formats"
14:54:28 <blathijs> which is of course very ugly, but I do have something working now :-p
14:54:47 <blathijs> Do you have any insights on what is the proper way to make this work?
14:55:35 <blathijs> (It took me a while to realize that the option infrastructure is used for both book options and report options. Once I did that, all of the engineering around these options started to make sense at last ;-)
14:57:42 <warlord> You can get the formats to show up in the dialog, but not really the values.
14:59:21 <warlord> I couldn't give you an insight into the "proper" way to make it work, because frankly there isn't one.
14:59:33 <warlord> The architecture wasn't designed to do what you want.
14:59:45 <blathijs> Yeah, I could move the formats into the options kvp slot, but that does also mean I need some kind of ugly type (e.g., gncInvoice) -> option title (e.g., "Invoice counter format") conversion, since I now use the counter type as the key in kvp
15:00:03 <blathijs> Heh, I guess that's why there is no GUI to change the counters yet? :-)
15:00:14 <warlord> right
15:00:29 <warlord> gotta run to pick up my nephews
15:00:37 <blathijs> k, have fun
15:00:59 <blathijs> I'll have another look to see if the architecture can be flexibilised with minor changes :-)
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15:31:01 <woble> blathijs, is it possible to credit several users at once? Like charging contribution from 10 users
15:32:08 <blathijs> yeah, you can do actions -> split (IIRC) and then add as many "splits" as you want
15:35:12 <woble> stock split?
15:36:59 <blathijs> nope
15:37:02 <blathijs> let me check
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15:45:16 <scar> in the customer report, i would like the invoice aging area to be calculated from invoice due dates
15:45:37 <blathijs> instead of?
15:47:53 <blathijs> woble: There's Action -> Split Transaction
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15:49:25 <woble> blathijs, is that a new function in the unstable releases? since in the actions menu there isnt a split transaction here.
15:49:37 <scar> blathijs: instead of, i believe, the post date.
15:51:14 <blathijs> woble: Which version are you running? I am running a 2.3 release, but I think it was in 2.2 as well?
15:52:02 <woble> 2.2.9
15:52:05 <blathijs> woble: You do need to have an account opened (e.g., it shows up when entering a transaction), not on the accounts overview page
15:52:32 <blathijs> woble: Perhaps you're using Actions -> Transfer... right now?
15:52:55 <woble> ah, that must be it
15:53:05 <blathijs> scar: I'm not sure if that's possible, perhaps one of the devs knows (so stick around and perhaps repost your question when it gets lost in conversation)
16:02:22 <warlord> scar: it is calculated from due dates
16:02:57 <warlord> woble: nope, Splits have been around forever. There is also the "Split" button in the toolbar
16:03:30 <woble> warlord, thanks, already found them :). they weren't in the transfer not actions menu but in the big transaction menu.
16:04:18 <warlord> could be
16:04:30 <warlord> I rarely use the main menus
16:04:57 <woble> havent used them a lot either, but just starting out. The model i made seems to work now :)
16:06:16 <blathijs> cool :-)
16:08:17 <woble> Just making small mistakes myself now.. transferring liability's to eachoter requires an extra minus and such
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16:45:44 <woble> Alright, i need a reboot. blathijs, thank you very much for your help. :).
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