2010-06-23 GnuCash IRC logs
00:02:44 <cj> whoever: wait... how did I get this question?
00:03:17 <cj> whoever: oh, 'cuz I answered similar questions the other day :)
00:03:35 <cj> whoever: what's the license on that file?
00:03:47 <jsled> also an important concern.
00:03:49 <cj> whoever: it has to be compatible with the rest of the source. warlord-afk lgpl?
00:04:22 <cj> also, if it's packaged elsewhere, I'd just depend on the .pc
00:04:33 <cj> if not, I might consider packaging it with a .pc
00:26:31 <whoever> jsled: oops , typo, that should be a , .c !.h (contact not in eye)
00:27:10 <whoever> cj: the license is gnu-gpl
00:30:15 <whoever> cj: .pc??
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07:59:05 <cj> whoever: pkg-config
08:01:33 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
08:02:07 <cj> take a look at http://anonsvn.mono-project.com/source/trunk/gtkglarea-sharp/configure.ac and http://anonsvn.mono-project.com/source/trunk/gtkglarea-sharp/gtkglarea-sharp.pc.in
08:02:11 <cj> warlord: o/
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09:43:13 <jsled> whoever: the .pc file is a pkg-config control file.
09:43:41 <jsled> it's what an external application (eg. gnucash) uses to find out the compiler and linker details for a library.
09:44:30 <jsled> for instance, what include-path (eg. -I/usr/include/twain-1.2.3) flag should be added to the compiler to pick up the header files. what library name to pass to the linker (eg. -ltwain) .
09:44:48 <jsled> But you should never include the headers or especially the sources of a third party library in the source tree with out very very good reason.
09:47:08 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
10:18:30 <whoever> jsled: ok, so your saying to add twain via the .pc , but i think in should be included because it sets up the scanner and destructs when not in use and if i use 'windows fax scan' it only works on win7 and vista
10:19:24 <jsled> whoever: that indicates you want to use the library, not that it needs to be included in the gnucash sources.
10:19:45 <jsled> similar to, say, printing. Or the UI toolkit. Or HTML rendering.
10:20:00 <jsled> We don't make a copy of those libraries in gnucash, we just link to them already installed on the system.
10:20:01 <whoever> what is the rull of thumb when supporting windows os's
10:20:15 <jsled> Now, I don't know what the windows installer does in terms of packaging.
10:22:27 <jsled> but, I wouldn't worry about that too much now.
10:23:15 <whoever> jsled: it has twunk_32 but no cli to interact with it on further reading it was for other older apps ie ms offic to communicate with other apps but didn't scan
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10:24:24 <whoever> so i see that as the only option, there is sane via cygwin, i don't think that is the best option for the end user
10:27:08 <whoever> jsled: when supporting windows what is the rule on how far back to support? ie: back to win98se or 2 OS's back?
10:27:31 <jsled> I don't know.
10:27:49 <jsled> I haven't been involved in the windows stuff at all.
10:27:57 <jsled> personally, I'd only support >= XP
10:28:09 <jsled> (unless 98 support is "free")
10:28:28 <whoever> jsled: thx, i am looking at os suppor as back to win98se since untill a few years ago head that few still use win3.1
10:28:42 <jsled> that's ridiculous
10:28:55 <jsled> it's all up to how much work you want to put into it, of course.
10:28:56 <whoever> jsled: that was on a box in the irs
10:29:11 <jsled> but you shouldn't spend much effort on supporting versions the vendor themself has declared EOL.
10:29:21 <jsled> look forward, not backwar.
10:29:25 <jsled> nor backward.
10:31:15 <whoever> jsled: have you heard of 'neat reciepts', i am aiming for a flat db, instead of an sql db of reciepts , since gnucash is a ledger that way you dongt have to beep the phyiscal recipt
10:31:57 <jsled> not specifically, but I understand the idea, and have wanted it for a while.
10:32:14 <jsled> Some day I'll get a jig setup to image receipts with my camera.
10:32:40 <jsled> and maybe OCR/extract the details from the formats of the 5 or 6 places I regularly purchase from.
10:33:52 <whoever> jsled: i tried it a few years ago and there aproach lack in areas i ie their db take a wile to find things and i'm sure there were other things i didn' like
10:34:26 <jsled> not surprising. :)
10:36:13 <whoever> jsled: i thaught recipt formatting was 'standartized ' by now its about 2 inches wide by x long ? excluding automotive invoices
10:36:28 <jsled> I doubt that very much.
10:36:31 <jsled> at least in the US.
10:37:05 <jsled> but, more so, locating the retailer, timestamp, subtotal/taxes/total and – ideally – individual line-items.
10:37:52 <jsled> Hrm. Would be cool if receipts printed a QR code that was a url to an electronic version of the receipt.
10:38:08 <whoever> jsled: that is what i am refferencing , and i'm gonna try to predict the recipt size at scan time, .. good or bad idea
10:38:39 <jsled> maybe with a pin number printed next to it for security. could probably be a nice little business you could sell to catalina or someone.
10:38:47 * jsled doesn't even know if Catalina still exists, but I bet they do.
10:39:25 <jsled> I wouldn't try to predict. OCR is hard enough. Ask the user to point out the regions of interest, and their meaning.
10:41:13 <whoever> ok
10:43:38 <whoever> i thaught system calls were more expenuive then including lib, ie: unpaper lib vs system(unpaper arg arg ...) am i right or wrong?
10:44:22 <jsled> "system calls" like executing a separate process?
10:44:30 <jsled> yes, that's generally going to be a lot slower.
10:51:01 <whoever> jsled: thats why i was thinking about including the unpaper lib or should i just do a system call
10:51:10 <jsled> no.
10:51:24 <jsled> there's two different things:
10:51:37 <jsled> 1/ Yes, you should use external libraries for the features they provide.
10:51:55 <jsled> 2/ No, you should not *include the sources of external libraries* in the gnucash source tree.
10:51:59 <jsled> Just link to them.
10:52:10 <jsled> Like *every other library we depend on*.
10:54:02 <whoever> ok, for some reason my brain is stuck on the speed aspect.. and once again i think i have no option but to include twain in the sorce
10:54:35 <jsled> I'm not suggesting that you exec() a subprocess.
10:54:46 <jsled> and why do you think you have no option but to include twain in the source?
10:54:49 <jsled> They're not the same thing.
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10:58:20 <whoever> maybe i got my verbage wrong but here is what i think: that i need twain.c and realated twain .c files to set up and destruct the scanning on windows
10:58:27 <jsled> no.
10:58:49 <jsled> by analogy … you see how we don't include the sources for an
10:58:55 <jsled> HTML renderer for the reports?
10:59:03 <jsled> or any code to handle printing?
10:59:20 <jsled> Or see how we don't include the gtk .c files to draw the widgets on the screen?
10:59:25 <jsled> we link to all these things as libraries.
10:59:39 <jsled> and you should do the same thing.
11:00:34 <whoever> ok, havn't really looked at the gnucash souurce as i a have been caught up on twain
11:02:16 <jsled> well, it's not about gnucash in particular.
11:02:20 <jsled> have you built much software?
11:03:05 <whoever> done more modifying than building
11:08:35 <jsled> all of these things are libraries.
11:08:53 <jsled> Er, all things like that … printing, widgets, html rendering, scanning … are libraries.
11:09:47 <jsled> at build time, the compiler uses the headers of the (installed) library to ensure the code is built correct, then links against the (installed) library to make sure symbols are satisfied.
11:09:55 <jsled> but you don't build or install the library yourself.
11:10:20 <jsled> you use e.g. the pkg-config file to figure out where the headers are, and what the library name is.
11:12:10 <whoever> jsled: i may be confused .. again i go back to gimp twain, when i look at the source and go to /plugins/twain it looks like the library and the the files are linked
11:12:35 <jsled> where's this?
11:13:04 <whoever> were can i upload it to i have the files
11:13:57 <jsled> whoever: http://src.gnu-darwin.org/ports/graphics/py-gimp/work/gimp-2.4.3/plug-ins/twain/ ?
11:17:03 <whoever> yes, i sware i saw more files there the other day
11:17:57 <whoever> (i just compaired files list agains wht i have )
11:18:04 <jsled> well, that is weird, cause it looks liek they do embed a modified copy of the twain sources, there.
11:18:58 <whoever> so that is where i got my exaple from
11:19:09 <whoever> so got any ideas for me on this one
11:19:39 <jsled> well, maybe there's a good reason for what they've done.
11:20:04 <whoever> there whent most of my stratigy sice the rest are external programs, that would be system calls
11:20:15 <jsled> In general, you should seek to simply link to dependencies such as these.
11:21:10 <whoever> it looks like you have to to get the functionality in ie gimp
11:21:40 <whoever> i spent most of yesterday reading it
11:22:12 <whoever> and the way twain is updated is from the header it looks like
11:23:47 <jsled> did you see xsane-win32?
11:25:57 <whoever> i read about that and that is a port of sane for windws but you have to install cygwin fist
11:26:38 <whoever> jsled: and sane and hp scanners don't get along
11:27:50 <whoever> so 'you' are forced to use twain on windows or alot of scanners won't work
11:31:12 <whoever> have a look at tw-dump.c.. probaby what is calling twain into action
11:32:14 <jsled> I really don't know, sorry. It seems twain might be "weird". I suggest you find someone with experience using twain on windows and mac to see if there's a more reasonable way to simply link to an externally-packaged version of twain.
11:33:52 <whoever> i wonder if xsane-win32 will work on win7 .. gottta try it , what i just found is different than what i found yesterday
11:34:03 <jsled> doing some simple google searches, it looks like other projects are able to package twain, but I just have zero knowledge of it.
11:34:08 <whoever> also mac uses sane for the most part
11:34:31 <jsled> but, I will say: including unmodified twain sources or even headers in the gnucash source tree should be a last resort.
11:35:43 <whoever> jsled: i guess it is time to swallow the nerd-pride and ask #windows about twain
11:41:53 <whoever> jsled: asked in #gimp , if you wanna know what they say let me know , i suspect its because the twain lib is not included on windows
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11:54:44 <whoever> jsled: the makefile does the linking , thoes 6 files inteact with the lib
11:56:35 <whoever> so that isn't the twain lib as thaught
11:56:58 <jsled> it's just glue code?
11:57:09 <whoever> yep
11:57:32 <whoever> and i was getting flamed for asking
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13:26:11 <acctswuser> hello all
13:42:37 <Askarii> hi
13:54:56 <acctswuser> I'm looking at gnucash, but I can't figure out whether it is capable of supporting the following scenario: multiple people in the family(insiders) take care together of multiple housings, so there are various recuring obligations (phone bill, gas bill, ...) . So there is the "outside services" to multiple housings being paid-for by "multiple identities(insiders)" who then decide among themselves who will be responsible for which servi
13:54:56 <acctswuser> Q: Can gnucash keep track of all of the peoples' multi-currency funds, obligations, incomes and taxes? Both towards the "outside services" and towards the "other insiders"
13:54:56 <acctswuser> Q2: Can it support budgeting, reconciliation and alarms for these insiders, in multi-currency?
13:54:57 <acctswuser> How could this be done? Would the account structure have to be setup 5-times, if each person could potentially pay for any of the bills, or could there be a "Bill B1 is paid from a ``common pool'' and then insider person P1 contributes $XYZ into the pool towards bill B1?" Would this work through the double-entry accounting? Thx!
14:01:52 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
14:01:58 <warlord> yes, it can keep track.
14:02:43 <warlord> I dont know if it could necessarily reconcile ... maybe it could, but it would be a fake reconciliation.
14:03:16 <warlord> as for account structure.... I dont know. maybe.
14:05:11 <acctswuser> aha
14:05:57 <acctswuser> hmm, I wouldn't mind "fake" reconcilliation, I think, as long as it wouldn't require extensive changes/augmentations of the account structure.
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14:07:52 <warlord> reconciliation is on a per-account
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14:37:21 <acctswuser> thx
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15:43:25 <kimmo> acctswuser, did you get a reply to your Q and Q2?
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17:45:36 <acctswuser> kimmo: officially somewhat yes, but I'm not sure that I've asked quite the right way ... I'm still investigating, hopefully I'll be able to ask more intelligently soon ... thanks for asking tho :-)
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21:56:23 <ivanseibel> Hi all!
21:57:43 <ivanseibel> It's possible to save data in a database, like postgresql or mysql?
21:58:00 <ivanseibel> Sry for my bad english...
21:59:32 <warlord> ivanseibel: Not until 2.4
21:59:37 <warlord> (well, the 2.3 testing series can)
22:00:48 <ivanseibel> Hm... with which databases will be compatible?
22:02:25 <warlord> sqlite, mysql, pg
22:04:00 <ivanseibel> Cool! I will take to test the unstable version.
22:05:12 <ivanseibel> I think the performance in queries and reports should be improved with the use of the database.
22:06:28 <ivanseibel> Is there a repository with different formats of reports?
22:07:57 <warlord> Nope. And nope, you think incorrectly.
22:08:02 <warlord> Indeed, the sql backend is slower.
22:08:10 <warlord> ... because gnucash is NOT a database application.
22:08:35 <warlord> The only real main feature of using the DB backend (from Gnucash) is that you get instantaneous commit.. So you cannot lose data if gnucash crashes.
22:08:50 <warlord> However, gnucash itself isn't designed to be a database application -- it still loads all data into RAM
22:08:56 <warlord> ... and still is not multi-user
22:12:20 <ivanseibel> Make sense...
22:12:48 <ivanseibel> And as the repository of reports?
22:19:00 <warlord> Hasn't changed significantly. All reports are distributed
22:20:11 <warlord> anyways, bedtime for me. good night
22:20:13 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
22:21:01 <ivanseibel> warlord-afk: tnx
22:21:13 <ivanseibel> and good night