2009-05-21 GnuCash IRC logs
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01:07:58 <basics> How do you record bounced cheque payments? I received a cheque and some cash from a client. Processed payment using the business features, and deposit and cheque and cash into the bank account. A few days later, the bank informs me that client's cheque has bounced due to insufficient fund, and reverse the amount of the cheque with an extra admin fee. Later, clients gives another cheque to replace the bound cheque.
01:08:08 <basics> How do I record this?
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01:17:05 <basics> I would like to record it so that it would show up in A/R and customer report.
01:21:09 <warlord> Create a new invoice for the value of the bounced check and the fees.
01:21:15 <warlord> Then another process payment for the replacement.
01:23:09 <basics> I was just about to do that. thank you.
01:25:37 <basics> umm...how about the bounced cheque in the bank account?
01:29:05 <warlord> What about it?
01:29:30 <warlord> Oh... right... umm...
01:30:12 <warlord> The Invoice should credit your checking account and debit A/R for the bounced check.. So just supply your checking account in lieu of the Income account.
01:30:42 <basics> I wasn't thinking properly. I found the answer I think. I decreased bank account, increased expense bank charges, then decreased income account.
01:31:32 <warlord> That would work, but wouldn't be shown in the customer report.
01:33:00 <basics> but I would also be creating a new Invoice for the bounced cheque.
01:39:55 <warlord> true, but... that would make it look like you did twice the work.
01:41:54 <basics> hmm...what I meant was I would record the bounced cheque in the +bank account and -income, then created a new invoice so that I can process it when I receive the new cheque.
01:46:29 <warlord> I guess that works, but when new reports get added to give you the total income for a customer that number will be off.
01:47:48 <basics> you're right.
01:48:03 <warlord> anyways, i need to head to bed.. good night, and good luck.
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01:48:13 <basics> okay. thank u.
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08:54:22 <Dave_is_sexy> Hi guys. I've been reading through this: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Setting_up_OFXDirectConnect_in_GnuCash_2 about direct online transactions. It doesn't seem relevant to the way the online banking is done in the UK. Here we need a logon, a password and a security question answer which flicks between a half dozen questions. I don't know if the technology actually uses the website, or the atm network? Could someone offer
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09:10:46 <Dave_is_sexy> I've read more now. Can't find a list of UK banks that support a useful protocol though. Anyone?
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11:11:44 <warlord> Dave_is_sexy: I dont know of any UK banks that suppport online banking.
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11:58:14 <linas> fyi gnucash.org was down with disk-drive problems for about 3 hours this morning
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13:19:02 <warlord> linas: thanks for the heads-up. Nobody mentioned it so i'm guessing it went mostly unnoticed. (or at least unreported).
13:19:57 <linas> it was down for 3 hours and it looks like its time to buy another disk ... each badblocks test returns hundreds more than the last ...
13:20:29 <jsled> ooh.
13:20:49 <warlord> linas: We can use the gnucash tip jar for that.
13:21:25 <linas> I guess I should take you up on that offer.
13:22:12 <warlord> Two options: You can buy the disk and I can paypal you the cost. Or I can buy the disk and then re-ship it to you once I get it (i dont think it will let me drop-ship to another address)
13:22:42 <warlord> or.. if paypal doesn't work for you I can send you a paper check.
13:23:13 <warlord> Disks are cheap -- I'd say we should get you two of them so you can do RAID-1 (or have a cold spare)
13:23:35 <warlord> But your hardware is old enough I bet it doesn't have SATA, does it?
13:27:16 <linas> its set up as raid-1 now, which is why its not catastrophic
13:27:34 <warlord> Right, but how old is the other drive? Would it pay to get two now?
13:28:55 <linas> its easier to do one-at-a-time
13:29:20 <linas> my experience is that raid works best if the drives are mis-matched, as that minimizes chance of double-failure
13:30:05 <linas> e.g. I once had some 10-15 ibm drives in 5-7 machines, and they all failed withing a few months of each other. It was fairly catastrophic
13:30:20 <warlord> That does sound fairly bad!
13:30:36 <warlord> How big are the current drives?
13:30:51 <linas> (this was back in 1999 during the ibm snafu that drove them out of the disk business)
13:32:06 <linas> currently, one 80gb, and one 200gb. The newer 200gb failed.
13:32:11 <warlord> LOL
13:32:16 <warlord> Intersting.
13:32:41 <warlord> 80G ATA/100 drives appear to be about $36-40
13:32:42 * jsled notes "No topic is set", if one of you should have a cached copy.
13:33:00 * jsled is (planning on) setting up a 2TB raid 10 this weekend.
13:33:05 <warlord> 160GB are $45-55
13:33:34 <warlord> 250GB is $55, 320GB is $60, and 500GB is $73
13:33:50 <linas> dang.
13:33:51 <jsled> off topic, but while you're talking about it … any experience or opinion about booting from raid? It seems like so long as you know your config and have a suitable rescue disk handy, it's not really a problem as it might have been in the past ?
13:34:09 <jsled> The 1TB 7200's I got were … $95, I think.
13:34:34 <warlord> I bought 5 Hitachi 1TB disks for $80 each.. I'm using 4 of them in the GnuCash VM host.
13:34:39 <linas> I boot from raid regularly, and haven't used a rescue disk in almost a decade
13:34:48 *** warlord changes topic to "Free GPL Personal and Small Business Accounting || Please don't ask to ask, just ask and wait! || publically-logged channel || latest stable: 2.2.9"
13:35:16 <warlord> Yeah, raid1 for /boot seems to work great, and you can "install grub" on both "MBRs"
13:35:35 <linas> However, ubuntu still seems to have trouble with raid
13:35:38 <warlord> I've set up previous machines so that I could unplug either drive and the system would still boot.
13:35:53 <warlord> (I didn't actually test that on the new vm host)
13:36:10 <linas> the tools seem to be there in ubuntu, but its finicky, and I've had to do significant hacking.
13:37:16 <jsled> hrm. Well, I'm gentoo anyways.
13:37:26 <jsled> But good to hear, thanks for the input.
13:37:53 <linas> gentoo might be spotless on this issue.
13:38:02 <jsled> I'll start off with the existing 200G EIDE boot drive, but probably drop it out of the mix as soon as I'm in the bathtub on the new array.
13:38:24 <linas> I got the impression that none of the unbutu developers actually ran raid on thier boxes, which would explain its shakiness
13:39:32 <warlord> FYI, jsled, here's how I have it set up on the vmhost:
13:39:33 <warlord> Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
13:39:34 <warlord> /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00
13:39:34 <warlord> 25189484 5353664 18556232 23% /
13:39:34 <warlord> /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol02
13:39:34 <warlord> 1259898792 135858116 1060041496 12% /vmware
13:39:35 <warlord> /dev/md0 497765 35406 436660 8% /boot
13:40:08 * warlord uses Fedora, which seems rock solid with Raid and LVM
13:40:47 <linas> yeah, i think fedora has always worked well for that stuff. ubunut has never had a server focus, though
13:41:04 <warlord> Right.
13:41:14 <linas> gentoo is geekier, so maybe it works well
13:42:10 <warlord> Dont know, I've never used it.
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14:28:15 <Dave_is_sexy> Hi guys. I have a thought. When I used to work in some gov. dept a few years back, they had a DOS program that they ran at the end of each month and it verified books and performed live transactions (presumably online). That would've been OFX right? Maybe I should call them and ask... lol
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14:31:03 <jsled> not necessarily.
14:31:11 <jsled> It was probably ACH-based.
14:39:05 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled, seems ACH is American. Can individuals use it?
14:39:47 <jsled> not exactly.
14:40:17 <jsled> you can, by proxy, for usually two specific things: direct deposit of paychecks and automated bill pay.
14:40:58 <Dave_is_sexy> Aw. I wanna have live Gnucash
14:47:49 <linas> yeah, ach is for banks/businesses only.
14:48:36 <linas> problem with ofx was that, after a little while, both microsoft and intuit realized that, by standardizing, all that would happen is that they'd get more competitors.
14:48:59 <linas> So they both went off and cut private deals. Basically, the incentive to standardize evaporated
14:50:19 <Dave_is_sexy> Hmm. Just like batteries and chargers. Everything used to be standardised, and now it's not
14:51:03 <Dave_is_sexy> How come no-one's solved the Gnucash screen-blanking-out bug yet?
14:51:07 <linas> that's the power of monoploy markets ... standards usually mean that the big guy looses, the little guy benefits
14:51:37 <linas> dunno. are others aware of this bug?
14:52:17 <Dave_is_sexy> Yeah. It was on the website for a while as "if anyone can help us out with this bug, please do"
14:53:08 <Dave_is_sexy> Basically, as you scroll through an account the screen messes up. Switching tabs and back refreshes it
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15:15:40 <linas> not a developer can;'t help
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15:40:23 <warlord> Dave_is_sexy: what OS/Distro?
15:40:26 <warlord> (I dont see it on Linux)
15:45:35 <warlord> and... where on the "web site" does anyone ask for it? Or are you talking about in a bug report?
15:55:58 <lenscape> Wolfram Alpha doesn't understand gnucash. "Do you mean: squash?"
15:58:42 <jsled> heh.
16:01:51 <Dave_is_sexy> warlord: win2k
16:02:24 <Dave_is_sexy> oh it was in early 2008. may have been in bugzilla or something
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16:04:55 <Dave_is_sexy> Ha! searching just brings up the IRC logs from back then. Wait, I'm being published? :O
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16:18:22 <jherm> Anyone know where I can find a pre-packaged quartz-based build of GnuCash? Or, has no one done it yet?
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16:27:59 <Dave_is_sexy> Can I have Gnucash predict what the status of my student loan will be next year?
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16:35:19 <warlord> jherm: nobody doing it.
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16:45:17 <warlord> Dave_is_sexy: Not right now.. Not without setting up your loan SXes to post ahead of time.
16:47:13 <jherm> warlord: OK, good to know. Maybe I'll take a whack at it... I learned quite a bit trying to help the guys from the Musicbrainz foundation...
16:47:32 <warlord> ok
16:47:35 <Dave_is_sexy> warlord, if I set that up, then import a wage slip that also says that amount has been transfered, wont that double it up? Would I have to spot it in the 'is this a duplicate?' check?
16:47:35 <jherm> Is there any dependencies that for one reason or another could not be provided in binary form to someone in the US?
16:48:19 <warlord> Dave_is_sexy: yes, you'd have to mark it as a duplicate during the import.
16:49:06 <warlord> jherm: I know of no distribution limitations (except for time and resources)
16:50:12 <lenscape> how do I enter credit notes or refunds into my accounts?
16:51:17 <warlord> lenscape: gnucash doesn't have a credit note per se. You have two things you can do:
16:51:43 <warlord> 1) you could "process payment" as if it were a payment (and then change the asset account to be the income account to reverse the income)
16:52:11 <warlord> 2) you could either unpost the invoice, edit the amount, and re-post it.. or put the credit on the next invoice for the customer.
16:52:20 <warlord> (you cannot have a "negative invoice"
16:52:21 <warlord> )
16:52:30 <lenscape> no - I realise that
16:52:47 <lenscape> OK. I think I can work with that - just to get the balance right. Thanks
16:53:13 <lenscape> what is the direction of the current development work?
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16:54:29 <jsled> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Release_Schedule#Release_Schedule_for_2.3.x has some detail by way of the nascent dev release
16:54:58 <warlord> off to my next meeting. BIAB
16:56:02 <lenscape> Yay!! for goals for 2.4.0
17:13:02 <Dave_is_sexy> I vote that 2.4 make numbers red when they go over budget
17:13:31 <Dave_is_sexy> And give reports based on if you're over budget
17:15:02 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: it's not a democracy. :)
17:15:56 <Dave_is_sexy> Aw
17:18:25 <Dave_is_sexy> But that'd be good anyway. Probably only take a minute to say "If target.value <0 , colour=red)" :)
17:21:29 <Dave_is_sexy> I have a query, concerning negative equity. atm, student loan interest is defined in negative equity, but it keep getting bigger (more negative). Is that right?
17:22:16 <jsled> student loan interest is an expense.
17:23:13 <Dave_is_sexy> ah but it's not really an expense, as that would imply i'm spending it. It just accumulates in the background. If I put it as an expense it will show up as though I don't have the money anymore when I do.
17:24:05 <jsled> you are spending it.
17:24:11 <jsled> student loan interest is an expense.
17:24:16 <Dave_is_sexy> I'm really not. It's in my bank
17:24:25 <jsled> huh?
17:24:42 <Dave_is_sexy> It's more of a "you owe us this much. pay it off whenever you want" kind of scenario
17:24:53 <Dave_is_sexy> "now you owe us more"
17:25:24 <jsled> I … don't follow. Is there an interest rate?
17:25:44 <Dave_is_sexy> yes. it changes every year. currently just droped from 4.2% to 1.5%
17:27:14 <jsled> Why do you believe it's equity?
17:27:21 <jsled> Actually, let me start.
17:28:04 <jsled> In a normal loan, the borrowed amount is both an Asset and a Liability.
17:28:46 <jsled> When you make a payment, whatever fraction pays down the Liability/principal does so, and the fraction that pays off interest is an Expense.
17:29:20 <jsled> So … how is your loan different than that?
17:30:20 <Dave_is_sexy> You have to pay some money towards it as a tax (an actual tax, via the tax office), then every year they pay that money back to the loan company. So I have a tax account and a liability account. The liability account keeps a record of the money that was borrowed, and the interest and the transfers from the tax office. so everything. The tax transfers link to the tax account and appear there as rebates, which is right, the
17:30:50 <jsled> (cut off at "which is right, the")
17:31:37 <Dave_is_sexy> yeah so the equity I'm not sure about, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere else for it to go.
17:32:26 <jsled> which account there is equity?
17:33:19 <Dave_is_sexy> 3 accounts: tax:studentloan , equity:loaninterest , liabilities:educationloan
17:33:40 <jsled> no, loan interest is not an equity account.
17:33:54 <jsled> The Tax account should be an expense account.
17:34:21 <Dave_is_sexy> but it's an actual tax like National Insurance
17:34:33 <jsled> Which is an expense account.
17:34:35 <jsled> Taxes are expenses.
17:34:45 <Dave_is_sexy> Oh, yeah it's an expense account
17:34:55 <Dave_is_sexy> called tax
17:35:50 <jsled> Sure. I mostly mean Account Type, not hierarchy, though there are some account-type based parent/child restrictions that mean Expsense are all usually under a top-level Expense:* hierearchy.
17:36:27 <jsled> So … that's that, then, you have {Tax:Student Loan [Interest]} and {Liabilities:Education Loan}.
17:36:33 <jsled> Done. :)
17:37:35 <Dave_is_sexy> no the interest isn't part of the tax. the tax is fixed at a % of your wage. the interest would probably have to go in a different expense account
17:38:31 <Dave_is_sexy> maybe in expenses:interest:student loan , linked to liabilities:education loan
17:39:00 <jsled> I think I see.
17:39:35 <Dave_is_sexy> something still seems wrong though
17:40:01 <jsled> Cause you might have a loan of ¤10,000, then pay ¤500 in taxes, but interest is really ¤1000 … so where does the extra ¤500 go?
17:40:50 <jsled> And, yes, I guess it would be negative equity.
17:41:37 <Dave_is_sexy> the only thing with that is, when the loan is paid off, there will still be this big negative equity account on a big negative number
18:02:56 <warlord> Sure, because the equity on the date when you originally started gnucash didn't change.
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18:46:02 <Dave_is_sexy> so everything's right then?
18:48:27 <warlord> Yep.
18:48:53 <warlord> The Equity Accounts only tell you your equity at the beginning of time. For your current instantaneous equity value you need to run a Balance Sheet report.
18:51:24 <Dave_is_sexy> Oh good. I spent most of the evening on my accounts tonight. Funny how the amount of income tax you pay can vary even when the gross monthly wage is the same.
18:51:35 <Dave_is_sexy> I'm not sure why that is
18:51:44 <warlord> its all about the deductions
18:53:04 <Dave_is_sexy> but that should be constant too
18:54:26 <Dave_is_sexy> say you earned £1000 in one month and were taxed £100 and £50 national insurance, why the next month would you earn £1000, be taxed £105, and £50 national insurance, for example
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19:04:55 <warlord> I dunno.
19:05:12 <warlord> tax rate changed?
19:05:20 <warlord> Different # of days in the month?
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