2009-04-20 GnuCash IRC logs
00:09:41 <pattern> why does gnucash call call columns in checking accounts "deposit" and "withdraw", while in some other types of accounts it calls them "expense" and "rebate" ?
00:09:54 <pattern> wouldn't it make more sense to use "deposit" and "withdraw" for them all ?
00:11:34 <warlord> Because you don't 'deposit' into an expense.
00:11:45 <warlord> the columns are tailored to the type of account.
00:12:00 <warlord> er, column titles.
00:12:39 <pattern> i guess it's just me, then... since i think of adding money to any kind of account as a deposit, and taking money out as a withdraw
00:12:56 <pattern> whether it's an expense account, a checking account, or whatever... it's still a deposit or a withdraw
00:13:40 <pattern> i could kind of see using "rebate" instead of "deposit"
00:13:47 <pattern> oops, i mean "expense" instead of "deposit"
00:13:55 <pattern> but "rebate"?
00:14:19 <pattern> anyway... minor quibble :)
00:14:34 <pattern> does gnucash allow configuration of these names?
00:14:54 <pattern> could i force it to use "deposit" and "withdraw" for all the column headings?
00:15:07 <pattern> (apart from mucking around in the source)
00:17:14 <XiXaQ> it allows you to choose credit and debit instead.
00:21:01 <pattern> hmm
00:24:02 <warlord> Sure, you have an expense (e.g., Grocery Store).. What would it mean to "withdraw" money from the Grocery Store? Well, they give you a rebate.. that's how.
00:24:19 <warlord> But no, you cannot assign the titles.
00:24:30 <warlord> (except to use "Credit" and "Debit" for all accounts)
00:25:39 <pattern> well, at least those terms would conform to the terms used in accounting textbooks
00:26:33 <pattern> preferences->labels->user formal accounting labels?
00:27:53 <pattern> btw, i agree that grocery stores could give me a rebate
00:27:57 <pattern> but expense accounts?
00:28:10 <pattern> i just don't think of them in terms of rebates
00:28:28 <pattern> i don't think of them in terms of debits or credits either, to be honest
00:29:12 <pattern> "deposit" or "withdraw" seems simple enough... though i suppose "increase" or "decrease" would also work
00:33:16 <pattern> i guess the way i look at it is that accounts can either be sources or destinations of money... when you take out money from these accounts you're "withdrawing" it, when you add money you're "depositing"...
00:33:32 <pattern> so it's not really a "grocery store" that you're withdrawing from... it's a "grocery store account"
00:33:43 <pattern> in that way, it makes sense to "withdraw", imo
00:34:47 <warlord> But how can you "take out" money from an expense? you've already spent it?
00:35:06 <warlord> But it's NOT a "grocery store account".
00:35:22 <warlord> It's a place in gnucash that represents the money you spent atthe grocery store.
00:35:29 <pattern> right
00:35:37 <warlord> GnuCash models that by using an account, but it's not an account in the same way that your bank holds an account.
00:35:47 <pattern> i understand that
00:35:54 <warlord> Therefore, it's really not a "withdrawal" because you can't take money back from the grocery store.
00:36:03 <pattern> but accounts are either a sources or destinations of funds
00:36:21 <pattern> and as such they can be withdrawn from or deposited in to, don't you think?
00:36:22 <warlord> Yes, you can debit and credit accounts.
00:36:29 <warlord> No, I dont agree.
00:36:46 <pattern> well, i'm just starting out with this... so no doubt you're correct
00:36:50 <warlord> debit and credit != deposit and withdrawal for all accounts.
00:36:51 <pattern> i'm just confused
00:37:18 <warlord> It helps if you never open an expense account.
00:37:24 <warlord> do all your entry from your assets and liabilities.
00:37:44 <pattern> i know that for some accounts debits add money and for others they take it out, and the same for credits
00:37:48 <pattern> that's what makes it all the more confusing
00:38:08 <pattern> why not just specify that money is being added or subtracted instead?
00:39:45 <warlord> Because that's not precise.
00:40:10 <warlord> For example, when you get a salary (income) you are increasing both the income account and your asset (checking) account.
00:40:21 <warlord> But it's still a balanced debit/credit.
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00:40:33 <pattern> hmm
00:41:02 <pattern> yes, i guess it's critically important to know that they are being balanced
00:41:44 <warlord> Yep
00:42:01 <warlord> And "increase/decrease" isn't precise enough.
00:42:04 <pattern> then maybe call them "add-alpha" and "add-beta"
00:42:12 <pattern> and "subtract-alpha" and "subtract-beta" :)
00:42:34 <pattern> and if you have an -alpha and a -beta in a transaction, they balance
00:42:35 <pattern> :)
00:44:03 <pattern> i think i just need to read more on accounting... and work out more examples...
00:44:06 <pattern> maybe one day i'll get it
00:44:52 <warlord> This is why accountants use "debit" and "credit"
00:45:30 <pattern> yeah, but they use the same term to mean different things based on context
00:46:04 <pattern> whereas i'm proposing separate terms that don't vary based on context
00:46:39 <warlord> Your way is more confusing, because you have you use a different term based on context, so you've only pushed the problem to a different place.
00:47:13 <pattern> you would need to use a different term based on context, but at least it would be immediately clear what the term referred to
00:47:26 <warlord> Anyways, you're welcome to continue this philosophical questioning, but it's past my bedtime, and I don't think you're going to make any headway with anyone, so you should just learn the current terminology.
00:47:31 <pattern> whereas a "debit" could mean one thing with one account, but the opposite with a different account
00:47:38 <pattern> and same for "credit"
00:47:55 <pattern> ok, good night warlord
00:47:59 <warlord> not really, debit always means "money flows into this account" and credit always means "money flows from this account"
00:48:01 <pattern> and, yes, i know this is a lost battle
00:48:09 <pattern> i'm not going to change 700 years of accounting tradition
00:48:28 <warlord> Whether money flowing into an account increases or decreases the account value is based on the type of account.
00:49:02 <pattern> hmm
00:49:05 <warlord> anyways, i'm off. good night.
00:49:07 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
00:49:09 <pattern> ok
00:49:19 <pattern> thanks for the explanations! :)
00:49:26 <pattern> night
00:51:17 <pattern> and, btw, if debit always means "money flows into this account", and credit always means "money flows from this account", then i think you could just as well use the terms "deposit" and "withdraw"
01:13:52 <pattern> or, more simply, "in" and "out", or "to" and "from"
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10:28:42 <mcravidao> hi there
10:29:38 <mcravidao> It's possible to associate a transfer with a category so I can make a report based on categories? (maybe there's another way (the right way) to make it?)
10:31:07 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
10:31:22 <warlord> Quicken Categories map to GnuCash Income/Expense Accounts.
10:31:35 <warlord> And indeed, GnuCash requires you to put something int he transfer account.
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13:49:32 <pattern> in account heirarchy templates what is the "act:commodity-scu" element used for?
13:50:08 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
13:50:22 <warlord> For the Account's commodity SCU. (Smallest Commodity Unit)
13:52:32 <pattern> thanks, warlord
13:53:39 <warlord> you're welcome
13:57:24 <pattern> what about the slots? (the ones containing slot keys called "placeholder" and "notes")
13:57:32 <pattern> what are those used for?
14:03:53 <pattern> ahhh... "GnuCash supports the use of Placeholder accounts. In effect, these are just read-only accounts into which no transactions can be entered, but which function in an analogous fashion to folders in a directory structure, as a holder for other accounts."
14:05:28 <pattern> curiously, some accounts have a placeholder value of true, some false, and others don't have placeholder slots at all
14:06:22 <pattern> some have notes slots, and some don't... though all note slots seem to have empty values
14:14:30 <warlord> What are you trying to do?
14:20:38 <pattern> create a new account heirarchy template from scratch
14:25:48 <warlord> IMHO the easiest way to do that is to use GnuCash to setup the hierarchy and then take the file (File -> Export -> Export Accounts) and then modify the XML and wrap it with the necessary XEA wrappers.
14:29:44 <pattern> can't i just copy something like /usr/share/gnucash/accounts/C/acctchrt_business.gnucash-xea and edit that instead?
14:30:58 <pattern> i think i mostly understand the structure of that file, but just am not really clear on the placeholder/notes slots
14:31:21 <warlord> Placeholder marks the account as a placeholder. Notes are notes.
14:31:36 <warlord> It depends what you need to change in the chart.
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14:31:54 <pattern> but why do some accounts have a placeholder slots set to true, some to false, while others don't have a placeholder slot at all?
14:32:39 <pattern> and where are the notes used?
14:34:03 <warlord> Most likely because someone set the flag once and then reset it later?
14:34:16 <warlord> default == false, so most likely that's what happened.
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14:34:33 <warlord> as forthe notes, they are visible in the account's dialog.
14:34:37 <warlord> (if you edit the account)
14:35:39 <pattern> ah, i see
14:35:43 <pattern> thanks again, warlord
14:36:21 <pattern> off to wreak havoc with my custom account hierarchy! :)
14:37:00 <warlord> Good luck.
14:38:06 <pattern> thanks
14:38:45 <warlord> :)
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16:23:20 <basics> hi.what price source in report options should be selected for correct balance sheet?
16:25:14 <basics> balance sheet is only balanced when average cost is selected. Unbalanced with different numbers when other price source selected. Is this normal?
16:29:54 <warlord> Did you include accounting for capital gains/losses>
16:29:54 <warlord> ?
16:30:05 <basics> yes.
16:31:08 <basics> Maybe I missed something..I'll have to check. But if all capital gains/losses are recorded correctly, it should balance no matter what price source is selected in the report options, right?
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16:34:55 <warlord> Right.
16:36:28 <basics> hmm...I'll go back and check if I've misplaced anything while accounting for the capital gains/losses. Thanks.
16:40:46 <warlord> ok.
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16:50:04 <pattern> is there a way to see what key combinations have been assigned as shortcuts and what they've been assigned to?
16:50:22 <warlord> I dont think there's an easy way.
16:51:15 <pattern> ok, thanks again :)
16:51:23 <warlord> you're welcome.
16:53:15 <pattern> i'm trying to assign a keyboard shortcut to the New->New_Account... menu option, so i open the "New" dropdown menu, hover my mouse over "New_Account..." and press F2, but nothing happens
16:53:44 <pattern> this is how keyboard shortcut assignment is supposed to work, isn't it?
16:53:54 <warlord> I thought so...
16:54:05 <warlord> You know there's also a toolbar option, right?
16:54:27 <pattern> nope :)
16:54:34 <pattern> that definitely helps...
16:54:53 <pattern> however, it'd be nice to know how to assign keyboard shortcuts to other menu options, for future use
16:55:16 <pattern> i like to use the keyboard as much as possible
16:59:04 <warlord> fair enough.
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17:54:05 <pattern> is it possible for gnucash to export to a format that turbotax can read?
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19:07:19 <andrewsw> whois gncbot
19:07:32 <andrewsw> heh
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19:08:31 <andrewsw> my drive-by good deed for the day...
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19:36:45 <XiXaQ> how old / wrong is The tutorial and concepts guide?
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19:44:09 <basics> I've just noticed something about the currency exchange rates. I would insert an certain exchange rate, yet gnucash would round up the final amount and then change the exchange rate.
19:46:16 <basics> For example for the amount USD0.46, I set the exchange rate to be 1.40146, making it CAD 0.64467. This amount would be round up to CAD 0.64. But then when I go back and check the exchange rate, it would set to 1 + 9/23 (1.391304).
19:47:40 <basics> This doesn't affect the amount of the transaction itself, but it does affect the capital gain...What can be done to solve this?
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20:01:01 <XiXaQ> hey warlord :)
20:01:45 <XiXaQ> I was wondering. I was planning to translate the tutorial and concepts guide, but how old / wrong is it?
20:02:45 <warlord> XiXaQ: Um, it's a little old, but probably not wrong. maybe lacking, but not wrong
20:03:18 <XiXaQ> ok. No radical changes of gnucash since then then? :)
20:04:12 <warlord> Not really..
20:04:37 <XiXaQ> great.
20:06:29 <warlord> I'm afraid I must leave now. TTYL.
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20:06:39 <warlord> @op
20:06:39 <gncbot> warlord: Error: You don't have the #gnucash,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
20:06:54 <warlord> @op
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21:49:06 <basics> I've checked. Capital Gain and Loss no errors. Still balance sheet only balanced when using exchange rate nearest to the date of report.
21:49:58 <basics> also balanced when using average cost
22:01:30 <basics> please help
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23:13:21 <pattern> just found a really nice basic accounting book... "small business accounting" by melvin montgomery
23:13:53 <pattern> it was written in '97... but looks more like it was written in the '80s... and comes with a 3.5" floppy :)
23:14:14 <goodger_> accounting hasn't changed a lot since the fifteenth century
23:14:15 <pattern> but it has the best explanation of debits and credits i've seen yet
23:14:23 <pattern> and tons of thoroughly explained examples
23:14:45 <goodger_> it's pretty much operating on geological time, 1997 isn't very long ago
23:14:56 <pattern> true
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23:15:53 <pattern> but many similar books i've looked at hasten to jump in to quickbooks or some comparable software (though, unfortunately, not gnucash)
23:15:55 <goodger_> debits and credits are strange, but once you understand them you can do wonderful things
23:16:03 <goodger_> much like regular expressions, I suppose
23:16:17 <pattern> i love regexes
23:16:41 <pattern> i found understanding regexes easier than understanding debits or credits... until this book
23:16:52 <pattern> now i see that i had simply been reading poor explanations
23:17:24 <pattern> usually they just tell the reader which accounts increase/decrease based on debits/credits and ask you to memorize it, without further explanation
23:17:34 <pattern> i hate that kind of rote learning
23:17:48 <pattern> i need to understand why things are the way they are to really learn
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23:18:29 <pattern> with this book, the author starts by showing a balance sheet with assets on the left, and liabilities and owner's equity on the right
23:18:39 <goodger_> ok: assets are increased by debits, liabilities decreased, and vice versa for credits; and this is a basic error-checking mechanism
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23:18:54 <pattern> and does a few examples of what happens to the balance sheet when transactions are made... then moves on to debit and credit
23:19:11 <goodger_> debits are always equal to credits unless there is an error somewhere
23:19:13 <pattern> noting that debit and credit simply mean "left" and "right" in latin (something no other book on the subject that i read mentioned)
23:20:06 <goodger_> I've never heard of that etymology
23:20:16 <pattern> and that left/right relationship between debit/credit, and whether the assets & liabilities/owner's-equity are on the left vs right is the basis for knowing which accounts are increased or decreased by debits and credits
23:20:56 <pattern> since assets are on the left and debits are on the left, increases in assets will be debits
23:21:09 <pattern> decreases in assets will correspondingly be credits
23:21:26 <goodger_> latin:--- debitum: debt
23:21:29 <pattern> and since liabilities are on the right and credits are on the right, increases in liabilities will be credits
23:21:46 <pattern> yeah, i was surprised by his etymology too
23:21:53 <pattern> but, i don't really care if it's made up
23:21:56 <pattern> it works! :)
23:21:58 <goodger_> left in latin is sinistra
23:22:10 <goodger_> right is dexter
23:22:16 <pattern> don't shatter my illusions! :(
23:22:21 <goodger_> or rather, dextera
23:22:31 <goodger_> pah! illusions are built to be shattered
23:22:50 <pattern> now i'm going to get all confused about debits & credits again
23:22:57 <pattern> is it debits or dexter?
23:22:58 <pattern> :)
23:23:30 <pattern> anyway, i think the way this author has set up this explanation of debits/credits is ingenious
23:23:46 <pattern> whether it's based on legitimate or creative etymology is of little importance
23:24:46 <pattern> plus, he's got a ton of thoroughly explained examples... and he keeps reusing examples, getting more detailed with each new explanation
23:24:53 <pattern> it's a really nice pedagogical method
23:24:55 <goodger_> you're happy to accept a total fabrication so long as it helps you to understand a fabrication? :/
23:25:03 <pattern> absolutely
23:25:20 <pattern> anyway, i don't need to really believe in it once i've learned what i need to learn
23:25:34 <goodger_> I see
23:25:46 <pattern> it has served its purpose now
23:26:05 <goodger_> lies-to-children indeed
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23:26:49 <pattern> :)
23:33:36 <wastrel> mnemonics
23:34:43 <pattern> yeah, mnemonics are also a good aid to memory
23:34:56 <goodger> ironically, because gnucash seems to record debits and credits in the opposite formation to those used on my accounting course, I am failing hard at T-accounts in accounting exams
23:35:49 <pattern> your course has debits on the right and credits on the left?
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23:36:36 <goodger> possibly, I can't remember
23:36:51 <goodger> I just seem to get them wrong all the time because I record them the other way
23:37:01 <pattern> hmm
23:37:23 <pattern> well, "c" and "d" are left to right in alphabetical order
23:37:31 <pattern> so it kind of does make sense to write them that way
23:37:36 <pattern> but it's actually the opposite
23:37:46 <pattern> so think of it as the opposite to alphabetical order :)
23:37:50 <pattern> maybe that'll help you remember
23:38:19 <wastrel> is there an ebook version of the gnucash guidebook
23:38:50 <pattern> i don't know.. but you could probably convert it to an ebook format