2009-02-13 GnuCash IRC logs
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04:47:55 <Zero> Heelo
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04:53:10 <Possum> hello
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05:08:14 <Possum> hi Where is the best channel to get help with IRC
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07:38:32 <warlord> PossumII: You're asking for help with IRC? Or help with GnuCash?
07:38:54 <PossumII> Gnucash
07:39:07 <PossumII> I just installed it
07:39:27 <PossumII> and came to see how this chat worked
07:39:30 <PossumII> So far so good
07:39:49 <PossumII> but one question.. are there any Gnucah forums
07:45:02 <warlord> you're in it.
07:45:09 <warlord> Unless you mean the mailing lists?
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07:51:03 <PossumII> OK.. thx
07:53:30 <PossumII> I have a small business. My cash comes from Google adds and PayPal.. Out goings are Computer equipment, travel. I really want to get rid of expensive accountants .. Do you think Gunucash could help
07:54:22 <warlord> Well, gnucash wont do your taxes for you, so you still need an accountant for that.
07:54:39 <PossumII> Himm
07:55:12 <PossumII> But if your books are OK you should be able to pay taxes from oyur books direct to INland revenue
07:59:53 <warlord> theoretically, yes.
08:02:35 <PossumII> that will do me
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12:55:20 <djMax> unfortunately the windows build I made just crashes on startup. Is there a general debugging log or something that would help there?
12:55:27 <djMax> other than gdb that is
12:56:09 <warlord> gnucash.trace
12:57:35 <djMax> didn't make one
12:59:03 <warlord> Um, if it crashes so early there is no gnucash.trace then your only bet is GDB
13:00:32 <djMax> ooh, interesting. It works if I run from an MSYS prompt long enough to display a window and then die
13:00:48 <djMax> but still no trace in that instance
13:01:11 <djMax> (I would assume by the time I see a window it should've dumped a trace on crash)
13:02:09 <warlord> i dont know the order offhand.
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13:07:48 <djMax> I know you'll think it's crazy, and it might be given the number of people who would care, but I think GnuCash should embrace the XML schema it uses.
13:07:57 <djMax> i.e. make it ok for me to do what I'm doing
13:09:13 <warlord> We dont want to do that because we want to be able to freely change the format.
13:09:26 <djMax> why? Why not not-so-freely change it.
13:09:41 <djMax> It would have some other advantages, for example being able to extend the schema.
13:11:02 <warlord> We can already extend it.
13:11:09 <djMax> with slots you mean?
13:11:21 <warlord> That's one way.
13:11:23 <djMax> And I more meant that *I* can extend it
13:11:27 <warlord> We've certainly changed the format over time.
13:11:33 <warlord> We dont WANT you to do that
13:11:48 <djMax> changing it and breaking it are different things obviously.
13:11:56 <djMax> Why wouldn't you want me to do that? Who are you protecting me from?
13:12:10 <djMax> let's say I want advanced investment tracking (which I do)
13:12:25 <djMax> and that perhaps I want to "tag" accounts or transactions, essentially creating multiple hierarchies.
13:12:29 <warlord> We're protecting other users from you
13:12:49 <djMax> how is that? How did they get my nefarious widget?
13:12:55 <warlord> We're also protecting you from yourself, in case you load the datafile into a non-modified version of gnucash.
13:13:06 <djMax> that's my point, that shouldn't break a thing.
13:13:10 <warlord> Gnucash doesn't save the SAX
13:13:24 <warlord> So unknown XML gets dropped.
13:13:36 <djMax> ah, well that's a problem I suppose, but a correctable one.
13:13:56 <warlord> It's not worth correcting.
13:14:10 <warlord> XML is aboslutely the WRONG data format for GnuCash data.
13:14:14 <djMax> this is basically the programmer's argument for hazing.
13:14:25 <djMax> sure, a db is better.
13:14:46 <warlord> right.. and we're moving towards that
13:14:53 <djMax> and if you're saying you're not opening the XML because it's going to be obsolete, I get that.
13:15:05 <djMax> though you're going to have similar philosophical questions in the db
13:15:28 <warlord> although still, we wont support out-of-band editing of the database, because not all constraints/invariants are encoded in the database tables.
13:15:44 <djMax> that's a good sign of a bad database. :)
13:16:49 <djMax> In a project like this I think it's more a matter of what you commit to than what you support. i.e. "We will not make a breaking change to the existing schema without a major version number change"
13:17:35 <warlord> We commit to having release N be able to read previous versions.
13:17:57 <djMax> I don't know the details of the goals, size of community, userbase, etc. But I would submit that the delta between people willing and able to contribute useful concepts and the people doing so is large.
13:17:59 <warlord> We TRY to make it so that that last point release of version N-1 can read the data files from release N, but that's not always the case.
13:18:45 <warlord> I dont know. But I can assure you this is not the first time I've had this same conversation.
13:19:05 <djMax> because the complexity of doing so is similarly large. I totally get why the porting ship has already sailed, and I'm not arguing that case.
13:20:21 <djMax> It's mostly academic, because it's not like telling me not to mess with the XML is going to stop me - I have little choice. It would be a problem if you said "you're hacking XML, I'm not going to answer any questions anymore", but you haven't done that.
13:20:56 <djMax> but it does make it a tough call for whether I put up this code somewhere or not
13:21:11 <djMax> or at least on the disclaimers I apply to it. :)
13:22:36 <warlord> I understand
13:22:59 <warlord> I'm still going to help you... You might decide to write some actual code for gnucash itself, so learning how gnucash works isn't a bad thing.
13:23:07 <djMax> (and for the record, though I see some of the reasons XML is bad, the schema is really nice)
13:23:22 <warlord> Oh, I agree in theory.
13:23:23 <djMax> it does one thing hugely right, which is not store data in multiple places
13:24:01 <djMax> when I get all my data loaded in, I'll hate to see the file size and memory footprint, but that's what Moore's Law is for.
13:24:26 <djMax> (though it's giving me new appreciation for your choice of C)
13:25:02 <djMax> does the wiki host zip files btw?
13:25:50 <warlord> What do you mean?
13:26:17 <djMax> if I wanted to post this code to the wiki
13:29:07 <djMax> so far I've got move transactions, move accounts/subaccounts, hide/unhide trees of accounts, and a "separate" tool to generate QIF files from MSMoney investment reports properly (as opposed to their export which can't handle options)
13:30:09 <warlord> Oh.. Ummm... I dont think the wiki supports that. Indeed I dont think it even supports "upload" right now.
13:30:15 <djMax> k
13:30:34 <warlord> I might change that on the new server...
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13:59:33 <djMax> interesting strange behavior - if you have a transaction with multiple splits to the same account, it seems to show up twice on the "other side"
14:00:09 <warlord> "other side"? It will show up twice in the account with multiple splits, certainly..
14:00:19 <warlord> The account register shows splits, not transactions.
14:01:04 <warlord> [ot] interesting geekdom of the day: http://www.coolepochcountdown.com/
14:03:10 <djMax> nice one.
14:04:11 <djMax> Money had a nice feature where if you started typing an account name, even if it was "deep in the tree" it would complete. Is there anything similar in GnuCash?
14:06:13 <djMax> at least we've got 29 years until the real s*t hits the fan
14:06:19 <warlord> Sort of, but you have to start from the top. Keep in mind that you can have multiple accounts of the same local name, so long as they are in different places inthe tree.
14:07:29 <warlord> But let's say you want to get to Assets:Current Assets:FooBar ... you can just type: a s : c u : f o
14:07:59 <warlord> Assuming, of course, you dont have something like Assets:Currencies: ...
14:08:21 <djMax> ok. And the "account code" field has no influence on that?
14:08:34 <warlord> correct.
14:08:48 <warlord> I believe there MIGHT be a preference to do some searching by account code.
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14:15:58 <djMax> so I have accounts for each security I have/had. I have subaccounts for all the options written on them, essentially creating grouped investments. The lot manager has assigned lots for all these, and put those transactions into the capital gains account (short or long term)
14:16:37 <djMax> do I have a chance in hell of writing a GnuCash report that takes the cap gains from those accounts, ties them back to the original investment group, and displays overall info for that group? Or is that best an external report?
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14:18:10 <warlord> I think that kind of report would be EXTREMELY useful!
14:18:37 <djMax> (this is also partly why I wanted tagged accounts)
14:18:50 <djMax> but the report system lets me follow splits like that?
14:18:52 <warlord> Tagged accounts? Or tagged txns?
14:19:03 <djMax> both, but primarily accounts for purposes like this
14:19:08 <djMax> (small cap, large cap, tech, etc)
14:19:14 <warlord> It should be able to...
14:19:25 <warlord> You might need to export more of the Lot API via swig..
14:19:45 <warlord> And you can easily tag an account like that! Just add something in the KVP Slots
14:19:49 <djMax> by going against Lots "decisions" I figured I might not need to
14:19:59 <djMax> yeah both of those things require a working build, ain't there yet. :)
14:20:12 <warlord> I told you to install Linux :)
14:20:23 <warlord> Doing GnuCash development on windows sucks..
14:20:34 <warlord> It's slow.. It's hard. The tools dont work well together..
14:20:47 <djMax> I know, I just still have so much "using" to do that I wanted to wait until I wasn't entering hundreds of txs
14:21:03 <warlord> ok.
14:21:19 <djMax> but yeah, eventually will have to unless I figure out the windows pain.
14:21:37 <djMax> how is the official windows release made? From Linux?
14:21:54 <warlord> I honestly dont know.
14:22:01 <djMax> :) I take it that means you don't make it.
14:22:13 <warlord> No I do not.
14:22:29 <djMax> who does? the person you mentioned before?
14:22:32 <warlord> However the medium-term plan is to move that functionality to a VM on the new gnucash vmhost server.
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14:22:51 <djMax> a windows VM? or cross compile from Linux?
14:22:57 <warlord> andi5 and nathan b-something.. (nbio...?)
14:23:02 <warlord> Windows VM
14:23:13 <djMax> it would be super cool to release that VM.
14:23:27 <warlord> I suppose we could TRY to cross-compile.
14:23:39 <warlord> I suspect there would be lots of licensing issues in releasing that VM
14:23:52 <djMax> not recommending it, just thought maybe that's why the windows build instructions were out of date
14:24:30 <warlord> Oh, they're probably out of date for other reasons.
14:24:44 <djMax> as long as you don't activate windows, there's no license problem.
14:25:21 <djMax> (http://communities.vmware.com/thread/106997)
14:26:04 <warlord> what i'd really love is the ability to create an osx vm
14:26:24 <djMax> heh, yeah. For all their talk of "think different" sometimes they don't.
14:29:21 <warlord> apparently it's even against the eula
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