2009-01-10 GnuCash IRC logs

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14:52:04 <gxti> hm, the reconcile window is behaving oddly on my checking account
14:52:56 <gxti> it seems to be ignoring some transactions being marked as cleared: it comes up with the wrong initial guess for an ending balance, and only two out of ten or so transactions are checked even though all but one should be
14:53:40 <gxti> but the "Cleared" balance on the status bar at the bottom matches what i am expecting, so it seems to be just the reconcile window
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15:26:51 <White_Owl> I want to add one transaction on Credit Card account which should split into several rows in Expense:Books account. How to do it correctly? I tried to do a 'split' transaction in CreditCard account, and now my Expense:Books account shows four split transactions, each one of them hold info about all four books I bought.
15:27:29 <jsled> yeah, that's unfortunately what happens
15:28:04 <jsled> (each Split against to Expenses:Books causes the transaction to be pulled into the ledger)
15:29:00 <White_Owl> When I do it backwards as four separate transactions in Expense:Books, I have four separate transactions in CreditCard account.
15:29:26 <jsled> well, don't do that.
15:29:30 <jsled> :)
15:29:50 <White_Owl> Ok, so how to do it correctly???
15:30:00 <jsled> It seems better to have one transaction with four splits (against Expenses:Books)
15:30:04 <jsled> rather than 4 transactions.
15:30:10 <jsled> just model the transactions as they happened
15:30:30 <jsled> It's less than ideal that there appears to be 4 transactions in Expenses:Books, but that's just the way it is.
15:30:48 <jsled> If you really want just the one Transaction in Expenses:Books, then collapse all four splits into one.
15:30:54 <jsled> Otherwise, *shrug* and move on.
15:30:58 <jsled> (or, better, fix the bug. :)
15:32:40 <White_Owl> Fix the bug..... I do not like GTK...
15:33:17 <gxti> what *is* the bug? that it shows as a split and not as a simple transaction?
15:33:47 <jsled> gxti: No, it puts the transaction into the ledger once for each Split that references the current account.
15:34:16 <jsled> So, in this case, you'd see the same transaction repeated with the same splits 4 times if looking at the Expenses:Books ledger.
15:34:17 <gxti> that seems like an appropriate thing to do
15:34:31 <jsled> Each one would be referencing a different Split, though.
15:35:03 <jsled> I disagree. It's totally counter-intuitive. It should just silently sum the balance-modifier across all the splits and just show the Transaction once.
15:35:17 <gxti> that's the other way i could see it
15:35:35 <gxti> but personally, if i was itemizing a purchase i would rather that each item show up separately on the expense side
15:35:53 <jsled> The Splits should. But not the Transaction.
15:36:12 <jsled> Of course, I think we should always be at least in Auto-Split mode, and maybe even Transaction Journal mode.
15:36:19 <jsled> s/we/GnuCash/
15:37:14 <White_Owl> gxti, Exactly! Each item should be shown separately in Expense:Books, if i enter them as split transaction in CreditCard account.
15:37:53 <jsled> White_Owl: Uh … isn't that what you described earlier?
15:38:07 <gxti> hence my initial question
15:38:11 <jsled> The account you enter the transactions "in" is irrelevant.
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15:38:50 <White_Owl> No, that is how I think it should be. That is not how it is.
15:39:00 <gxti> it could be configurable as to whether an account that shows up multiple times in a transaction shows each split separately
15:39:07 <gxti> heh
15:39:21 <jsled> White_Owl: "I tried to do a 'split' transaction in CreditCard account, and now my Expense:Books account shows four split transactions, each one of them hold info about all four books I bought."
15:39:40 <White_Owl> Yes.
15:40:07 <jsled> You're saying the 4 Transactions in Expenses:Books should only should the one Split being involved?
15:40:24 <jsled> (and the one against Expenses:CreditCard)
15:40:35 <g_mike> wonder why on ofx import, a transaction (1 out of 8) gets ignored. how can i force gnucash to show/import it.
15:40:39 <jsled> no. configurability is lame. :)
15:40:44 <g_mike> using gnucash 2.2.4
15:41:50 <White_Owl> I am saying - One split transaction in CreditCard account, should be four separate or one split in Expenses:Books
15:42:51 <gxti> if i create one transaction that splits three times to books, i see three separate transactions under books, each showing the price for that split
15:42:56 <jsled> Oh!
15:43:06 <jsled> warlord-afk: what register view mode are you in in Expenses:Books?
15:43:20 <jsled> Er. White_Owl ^
15:43:28 <gxti> interestingly, if i switch to transaction journal i see the single transaction
15:43:43 * jsled just realized Basic Ledger and Auto-Split are different to Txn Journal.
15:44:04 <gxti> jsled: oddly enough, this fits both of my "ideal" models...
15:44:08 <jsled> heh
15:45:02 <gxti> the only glitch is that it should probably, when itemized (basic view), show the credit card account instead of "split transaction"
15:45:24 <gxti> since there is exactly one crediting account
15:45:30 <White_Owl> gxti, I see four (I have four books) separate transactions in Expense:Books, each of them shows as 'split' and on each and every one of them if I press "Split" button, I see all four books.
15:45:51 <jsled> White_Owl: try the other two views.
15:45:54 <gxti> White_Owl: switch to transaction journal (view menu), and it shows up as a single transaction
15:46:07 <jsled> I think Auto-Split is probably the best for day-to-day use. I think Basic Ledger is an abomination.
15:46:22 <jsled> It's a cop-out for people that want things to look like a simpler program.
15:46:34 <White_Owl> gxti, yes, General Ledgers shows the perfectly fine picture
15:46:51 <jsled> GnuCash should just say "no, god damnit, this is a double-entry accounting app, lrn2double-entry"
15:47:00 <jsled> White_Owl: *Not* General Ledger.
15:47:10 <g_mike> heh that's funny
15:47:11 <jsled> View > Transaction Journal
15:47:15 <gxti> White_Owl: the "partial split" view you get with basic/auto-split is going to be weird no matter the implementation
15:47:35 <gxti> because with nothing selected you see all four, so what do you expect it to do when you view the details for just one?
15:47:38 <jsled> (The General Ledger UI has some subtle and potentially serious bugs)
15:48:02 <gxti> wow, general ledger looks really ... interesting in this case
15:48:17 <White_Owl> O! Main menu: View->Transaction journal - fine. I like this picture.
15:48:47 <jsled> The big problem with the Transaction Journal view is that it's just verbose. The "local" Split for an account is repeated all the time.
15:49:09 <jsled> Auto-Split is the nice compromise of saving space but immediate access to the full split when a Transaction is focused.
15:49:30 <gxti> jsled: there could be a mode like auto-split but always showing splits when more than two accounts are involved
15:49:44 <jsled> yea, it's a standing feature request.
15:49:47 <White_Owl> But default setting, Basic Ledger is definitely shows something strange and uncomprehensive.
15:50:02 <gxti> White_Owl: it makes sense as long as you don't show the split
15:50:33 <gxti> when you do, it has to show all four splits, but it can't just hide the other transactions, so you get both
15:51:09 <jsled> gxti: and probably a better refinement. Combined with "only show 1 transaction but show (and sum) all the component splits" like the TJ view does, that's probably be the One True register view mode.
15:51:27 * jsled makes note for future app effort.
15:51:44 <White_Owl> In that case, next question: How to set Transaction Journal view as default?
15:52:10 <jsled> Edit > Preferences > Register Defaults
15:52:42 <g_mike> Or set in View
15:53:07 <White_Owl> Thanks
15:53:36 <White_Owl> I guess that solve my problem, thank you.
15:53:55 <White_Owl> But Basic Ledger is.... strange....
15:53:56 <jsled> g_mike: sorry, don't know about the OFX import. I'd isolate that transaction to a file, look for ways that it's different than the others (missing an element? Funny encoding?), then maybe tweak it until it gets imported.
15:54:21 <jsled> g_mike: maybe run gnucash from the console and see if the importer prints any diagnostics to stderr.
15:54:30 <g_mike> here's the interesting part in the trans log it shows up as "deleted"
15:54:31 <gxti> the importer is neat, but it seems to have lots of subtle issues
15:55:43 <gxti> i'm pretty sure it had something to do with the reconciliation issue i mentioned earlier, and that was after restarting gnucash to get rid of all the fake transactions it left lying around :/
15:56:23 <g_mike> i did run gnucash in console - not is reported.
15:56:35 <g_mike> well, nothting error wise
15:57:42 <g_mike> In the log file it shows as ===== START
15:57:42 <g_mike> D d65325c74091605164e487b7a5cf625f .....
15:57:56 <g_mike> and that is the transation i want to import...
15:58:26 <g_mike> it seems the importer is automatically deleting it before putting up the dialog box....
15:58:39 <g_mike> why? and how can i clear that condition?
16:00:19 <g_mike> sidebar about fake transaction... how come when I delete a transaction an later run "check and repair" it puts the transaction back in even if it doesnt exists in any of the books....
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16:03:31 <g_mike> I'd admit the first time i imported the file, there was a "warning" about that transaction... and got interrupted by kids ... and later tried to finish the import.... that transaction item no longer appears on import
16:04:24 <g_mike> it is an valid entry ;(
16:18:02 <g_mike> :-(
16:26:42 <White_Owl> Another newbie question: Is it possible to remember the formula I used to calculate the exact amount which is later stored in journal? For example, book price tag is 9.99, on that I have 20% discount and 7% sales tax. The journal right now is showing 8.55, the amount I actually paid. But how to show all that calculations starting from the 9.99?
16:28:06 <fbond> Hi. Does the CSV importer work at all? It keeps crashing GnuCash.
16:31:21 <fbond> GnuCash segfaults when I click on the column type selection drop down menus.
16:31:34 <fbond> I'm wondering if other people are seeing this or if I've somehow screwed up my installation.
16:31:52 <fbond> I'm on svn revision 17804.
16:39:14 <jsled> fbond: I doubt it's a screwed up installation; the CSV importer was never quite finished (a GSoC project from a couple of years ago)
16:39:24 <fbond> jsled: Oh, ouch.
16:39:40 <fbond> Ah FOSS, I always end up writing code when I start using a new program.
16:40:02 <jsled> White_Owl: no; the value cells in the register will accept simple expressions, but it will evaluate them immediately; it's just a runtime/ui convenience.
16:40:10 <jsled> fbond: :(
16:40:21 <fbond> jsled: Would I be better off fixing the csv importer or writing a csv -> ofx converter?
16:40:30 <White_Owl> jsled, I
16:40:58 <jsled> White_Owl: There's a general idea of more formal "template" transactions, where you could express such a formula, then plug in the values, &c... but retaining the expression form of that has never really been mentioned as a key requirement.
16:41:06 <jsled> fbond: fixing the CSV importer, probably.
16:41:28 <fbond> jsled: Well, that would be more beneficial to GnuCash, anyway (assuming my patches get reviewed and committed).
16:41:34 <White_Owl> jsled, I'd like to have this formula in something like tooltip when I browse mouse above the number.... or something similar...
16:41:37 <jsled> I'm not sure why you'd want the complexity of going to OFX first … AIUI the CSV importer uses the same generic importing backend as the OFX importer.
16:41:47 <fbond> jsled: Oh, okay.
16:41:50 <jsled> White_Owl: why?
16:42:11 <fbond> jsled: I've used the OFX importer and I know that it works. I'm better at writing Python than C, so if CSV is *really* broken, it may not be something I can reasonably deal with at the moment.
16:42:30 <jsled> No, IIRC it was like 90% of the way there.
16:42:34 <jsled> (the CSV importer)
16:42:41 <fbond> jsled: Okay, I'll take a look at it.
16:42:47 <White_Owl> Well... The idea is to see the original price tag and payed amount.
16:43:40 <White_Owl> To store the formula looks like the most straight forward solution to achieve that.
16:44:01 <g_mike> is ofx importer broken or????
16:44:36 <fbond> g_mike: I've used it before briefly. Define "broken".
16:45:03 <gxti> it is buggy, but it is not broken
16:45:04 <fbond> g_mike: It's certainly less broken than the CSV importer. ;)
16:45:25 <g_mike> i shouldnt say broken. how about misbehaving? like ignoring a vaild transaction item?
16:45:50 <jsled> White_Owl: but … why? :)
16:46:02 <g_mike> my problem is that i cant tell if it is the importer doing that or if gnucash is doing that.
16:46:18 <fbond> jsled: I sent a report patch in to the -devel ML. How soon ought I reasonably expect that patch to be reviewed and (hopefully) accepted?
16:46:40 <jsled> White_Owl: I mean, do you want to be able to report over transactions with discounts, or … ?
16:46:41 <White_Owl> jsled, Because! :)
16:46:56 <jsled> fbond: uh ... too long?
16:47:09 <fbond> jsled: Okay, that was my guess.
16:47:25 <fbond> jsled: Can you give me a more detailed estimate. ;)
16:47:32 <jsled> months?
16:47:35 <fbond> jsled: Ouch.
16:47:46 <jsled> yeah. fork the code, make your own builds.
16:47:50 <fbond> It'll probably be in conflict by the time anyone looks at it.
16:48:02 <fbond> jsled: Well, I'm running my own builds.
16:48:18 <fbond> jsled: I am just hoping that I won't have to fix the patch in the future when trunk is different.
16:48:32 <White_Owl> jsled, Yes that would be actualy very useful. For example, I have B&N membership card, and at the end of the year, I would like to know how much did I save with membership discounts. Is it worth it annual $25?
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16:49:07 <jsled> White_Owl: You could record the savings as another split. Same with taxes.
16:49:43 <jsled> But the only things modeled (especially for reporting purposes) are splits and transactions (and their fields)
16:49:45 <White_Owl> jsled, can I do split of the split?
16:49:51 <jsled> No.
16:49:56 <jsled> A Transaction has a Set of Splits.
16:52:05 <jsled> fbond: gnucash momentum is near its all-time nadir, unfortunately. :/
16:52:35 <fbond> jsled: How many committers are there?
16:52:51 <jsled> people who can commit? a dozen, maybe?
16:52:51 <fbond> (Well, committers that are still alive and pay attention to the ML)
16:53:11 <jsled> a half-dozen, maybe?
16:53:13 <fbond> Everyone's pretty busy, I take it.
16:53:40 <jsled> andi5: still seems to be pushing patches, so hopefully you can get his attention.
16:53:56 <jsled> s/://
16:54:01 <fbond> Right.
17:03:13 <fbond> jsled: Does andi5 hang out in IRC at all? Do you think he'd be bothered if I sent him an e-mail?
17:03:42 <jsled> he comes in from time to time, yes.
17:03:44 <jsled> @seen andi5
17:03:44 <gncbot> jsled: andi5 was last seen in #gnucash 6 days, 9 hours, 36 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <andi5> ok...gotta go
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