2008-11-11 GnuCash IRC logs
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09:19:08 <dsquattro> hey
09:20:31 <dsquattro> how do I make a "temporary transaction" which will only be permanent when the money really was spent (for example for when I borrow someone's money)
09:21:22 <jsled> There's no such thing. You can post-date it. Or maybe make a transaction into a "holding" account, then out of there.
09:21:40 <jsled> But … this just sounds like maybe it's a liability account for the borrowed funds?
09:22:27 <dsquattro> yeah. I also made a liability account but when I put the value there it automatically takes the value off from my wallet
09:23:12 <dsquattro> what I want is something that will stay there and disappear from there when I pay what I owe
09:23:14 <dsquattro> or something like that
09:24:15 <jsled> the usual way is not to model something that goes away, but to make a transaction that increases a liability when you incur it (borrow), then another transaction that decreases the liability when you pay it back
09:24:44 <jsled> Things aren't often "erased" in accounting. People get in trouble for that. ;)
09:25:35 <dsquattro> oh I meant decrease with "disappear from there"
09:28:19 <jsled> Ah. Well, I don't know what your question is, at this point.
09:28:47 <jsled> I'm not sure what you mean by "takes the value off from my wallet".
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17:48:57 <dsquattro> hey
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17:53:15 <dsquattro> how do I make a transaction in a liability account from which I would later decrease the amount
17:54:00 <dsquattro> I already asked this question but if someone answered I didn't read because the internet kicked me off
17:54:28 <jsled> There wasn't much more in reponse. The last two things I said were:
17:54:32 <jsled> <jsled> Ah. Well, I don't know what your question is, at this point.
17:54:32 <jsled> <jsled> I'm not sure what you mean by "takes the value off from my wallet".
17:56:30 <dsquattro> ah, it was you... I want the value I owe only to be quoted and later when I gave the money back it would decrease on the liability account
17:56:31 <warlord> dsquattro: You dont reduce the amount of the transaction -- you reduce the amount of the total liability. You do this via subsequent transactions.
17:57:09 <warlord> So, e.g., L->Cash (someone loans you money). Then later Cash->L (you pay them back)
17:57:21 <dsquattro> that's it
17:57:35 <dsquattro> but in this case I loan someone money
17:57:48 <dsquattro> ah sorry
17:57:49 <warlord> Then that's an Asset, and you reverse the transactions.
17:58:02 <dsquattro> I misunderstood, it's exactly what you said
17:58:29 <dsquattro> hum, it has nothing to do with Liability then?
17:58:52 <warlord> If you loan money to someone else then that's an Asset, not a Liability.
17:59:07 <warlord> (it's a Liability to them, but an Asset to you)
18:01:00 <dsquattro> so is it okay to create a transaction in my Cash transfering the money to any Expenses' account?
18:01:21 <warlord> of course.
18:01:26 <jsled> If you're spending cash on an expense, yeah.
18:01:37 <jsled> Asset->Expense accounts are probably the most common transaction you'll make.
18:01:39 <warlord> That's the generally suggested way to do it (==jsled)
18:01:53 <jsled> Unless you're doing much better at life than I am. ;)
18:02:04 <jsled> (Or Liability -> Expense, if you're not.)
18:02:11 <warlord> heh
18:02:26 <dsquattro> but that will automatically decrease my Cash and I want it only to decrease when I really give the money back
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18:03:17 <warlord> Huh? "give the money back"?
18:03:25 <jsled> dsquattro: I'm confused. You're borrowing the money from someone?
18:03:50 <dsquattro> yeah, I borrowed
18:04:10 <jsled> If so, that's Liability->Cash to represent borrowing the money. Then Cash->Expense when you spend the money. Then Assets->Liability when you pay it back.
18:05:10 <jsled> And, if the loan and the payback are the same amount (e.g., $100), then the Liability account will be $100 while you haven't paid it back, then $0 when you have.
18:05:30 <jsled> Or, if you only pay back $25, then the liability will go from $100 to $75 …
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18:07:23 <dsquattro> I represented borrowing the money on Liabilities... now it appears on Assets. when I payback I will just need to change from Liabilities to Expenses?
18:07:41 <jsled> no.
18:08:18 <ciaran> I don't suppose anyone knows if there's a repository for reports? I'm looking specifically for a remittance advice...
18:08:43 <jsled> Liability->Cash to represent borrowing the money. Then Cash->Expense when you spend the money. Then Assets->Liability when you pay it back.
18:09:12 <jsled> ciaran: basically every report that has been produced is included in the distribution.
18:09:42 <ciaran> thanks jsled, no worries, I'm using the vendor report at the moment and its (just about) doing the trick!
18:10:18 <jsled> dsquattro: I suppose if you really wanted to ignore the fact that you needed to borrow the money, you could go back and remove the Liability->Cash transaction … but why?
18:11:59 <dsquattro> so I receive 1.95 from Liability to Cash to represend borrowing the money. Then I spend those 1.95 to Expenses from Cash right?
18:12:35 <jsled> right.
18:12:36 <dsquattro> and when I spend to Expenses it's another transaction, right?
18:12:48 <dsquattro> just the money is the same
18:12:52 <jsled> A separate transaction, yes.
18:13:03 <dsquattro> okay but the last part I am not understanding: Assets->Liability
18:13:17 <jsled> Things would work if you tried to cram it all into one transaction, but they really are discrete events.
18:13:23 <jsled> Well, you need to pay back the loan, right?
18:13:51 <dsquattro> yeah but isn't italready paid-back when I spend the money to Expenses?
18:14:17 <warlord> dsquattro: Think about it this way. You give me $10. I use that $10 to buy myself a beer.
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18:14:30 <warlord> Don't I still owe you $10?
18:15:10 <dsquattro> ah, yes
18:15:22 <warlord> It works the same way if I give you $10
18:15:34 <ciaran> carrying on from that, so the $10 remains owed until I go to an atm take out $10 from my assets and pay it back...
18:15:49 <warlord> Even if you use that $10 to buy a beer (Cash -> Expense), you still owe me the $10.. So when you pay me back it's Assets->Liability
18:16:08 <warlord> Right. Or give a check.. or whatever.
18:17:13 <warlord> dsquattro: yours transactions should model the real-world. It records money moving from one place to another. Me->You. You->Bar. You->Me
18:18:50 <dsquattro> so in this case, for you, I would be "Liability", right?
18:19:42 <warlord> Yes, if I loan you $10, then to me you are an Asset (money owed to me) and to you I am a Liability (money you owe to someone else)
18:20:57 <ciaran> i.e. on dsquattro books the $10 would be a liability as its something not owned by dsquattro, but on warlord's books it would be an asset as it something warlord hopes to receive in the future, if dsquattro is any kind of friend :-)
18:21:02 <dsquattro> ah, I understand perfectly now
18:21:29 <dsquattro> and it's already done on gnucash :)
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18:22:46 <dsquattro> thanks a lot :)
18:22:52 <warlord> you're welcome
18:24:45 <dsquattro> you know any page with a list of terms useful on transaction descriptions? For example how will I better describe that I borrowed 10$ from my friend? "My-friend's-name Loan "?
18:25:05 <warlord> Um, it's all free form.. Whatever is useful to you.
18:25:27 <warlord> Keep in mind that you have the Description and the Account to help you.
18:26:01 <warlord> E.g., you could have Liabilities:Loans:Friend --- and then you could put in the desc something like "Loan for Beer"
18:27:42 <ciaran> For transaction "types" that tend to happen often I use the type for the first part of the transaction, then the source/sink for the second part, e.g. "LOAN - warlord"
18:28:19 <ciaran> but warlord is right, if the loan has an intended purposes, it would be better to use something like "loan for beer" then you're not trying to figure out what you spent the money on!
18:28:35 <ciaran> later on, I mean...
18:36:20 <dsquattro> and what if my friend says "never mind" and asks me not to payback, how do I express that I am not owing anything
18:36:40 <dsquattro> move the transaction from Liability to Income would be right, right?
18:36:42 <warlord> Income:Gift->Liability
18:38:11 <warlord> i wouldn't move it.. i'd just add a new txn to represent the forgieness
18:38:21 <warlord> forvigeness even
18:38:27 <warlord> Grr.. I can't type
18:38:47 <dsquattro> forgiveness
18:38:53 <dsquattro> let me try
18:38:57 <warlord> yeah that
18:39:09 <warlord> ;)
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18:43:09 <dsquattro> done :) hehe
18:44:52 <dsquattro> now if I had to payback 9.95$ and I only had a 10$ bill... the Liability will be negative. how do I (re)balance it?
18:45:15 <warlord> Well, Asset = -Liability.
18:45:33 <warlord> So you don't need to do anything except notice that it's negative, meaning your friend owes you a nickel
18:45:56 <dsquattro> but I tell him not to care about the .05$
18:46:26 <dsquattro> it's actually negative
18:46:40 <ciaran> so an additional txn from liability ->expenses:gift to friend is in order...
18:46:41 <warlord> Ah, then i would record it as a split transaction. $10 from Cash, $9.95 to Liability, and $0.05 to Expenses:Gifts
18:47:14 <dsquattro> ah, perfect :) tks
18:47:34 <ciaran> yes, that's much neater if you haven't already done the txn (in fact, even if you have you can still change it...)
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18:48:53 <ciaran> now I have a question, anybody figured out a way to filter the transaction view to show all transactions with the same number? I'm thinking multiple lines on a bank lodgement...
18:49:19 <warlord> ciaran: what do you mean, "all transactions with the same number"?
18:49:41 <warlord> Do you mean the same string in the Number COlumn? The same Amount?
18:51:29 <dsquattro> when I split a txn is it normal that the 2 different "operations" are in different lines? (still marked as --Split Transaction-- (both))
18:51:46 <ciaran> warlord: yes that's exactly what I mean.
18:51:58 <warlord> dsquattro: that implies you put multiple lines into the same account instead of setting each split to a different account.
18:52:07 <warlord> ciaran: which one?
18:52:45 <ciaran> sorry, need to learn to read to end of posts :-) same string in Number column.
18:53:16 <warlord> Well, originally that column was designed for, say, a check #.. Duplication would be... unlikely.
18:53:29 <warlord> So no, there's really no filter. BUT, you could do a txn search
18:54:19 <ciaran> Yeah, I use it for the cheque number, but also I use it for the number of the lodgement slip which usually has multiple lines on it as I make few trips to the bank...
18:54:44 <warlord> I have no clue what a "lodgement slip" is.
18:55:19 <dsquattro> http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9020/cashinwalletlc0.png
18:56:04 <jsled> dsquattro: select either transaction and press the split button.
18:56:11 <warlord> dsquattro: Right, you incorrectly assigned the $0.05 back to the Cash In Wallet instead of to Expenses:Gifts
18:57:12 <dsquattro> http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8048/changenb6.png
18:58:18 <warlord> dsquattro: You need to adjust the amounts.. You're making it a $2.05 transaction, not a $2 transaction.
18:58:26 <warlord> You have 4 splits in there, not three.
19:00:01 <dsquattro> so the Liabilities:Loans has to be 1.95?
19:00:22 <warlord> well, that IS how much you're paying back to the liability, isn't it?
19:00:42 <ciaran> its a european thing, when you pay money into the bank you can fill out a slip that details a list of cheques you're paying in... so I enter all the cheques as they come in and enter the next lodgement slip number in the "Number" column, but on my bank statement I just see one figure again with the lodgement slip number, so when it comes time to reconcile...
19:00:58 <dsquattro> that's what I owe but since I don't have that money exactly I will pay 2
19:01:05 <ciaran> how do I do a transaction search? sounds exactly what I'm looking for, but couldn't find one...
19:01:17 <warlord> ciaran: My suggestion is to have a transit account.
19:01:34 <warlord> ciaran: Edit -> Find...
19:01:57 <warlord> dsquattro: sure, but the /LIABILITY/ only gets $1.95 of that..
19:02:09 <warlord> the other $.05 is a gift
19:02:13 <dsquattro> ah, I got it :D done
19:03:08 <dsquattro> yeah.. 2 spent from Cash, from which 1.95 is for Liability and the rest for Expenses:Gift
19:03:25 <warlord> exactly. That's your 3 splits.
19:03:45 <dsquattro> perfect now :) thanks again
19:05:03 <warlord> okay, time for me to go. Later all.
19:05:05 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
19:05:15 <dsquattro> later!
19:05:35 <ciaran> thanks warlord, that's exactly what I was looking for!
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