2008-10-26 GnuCash IRC logs

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05:36:50 <FrozenZia> Ok, soI
05:37:17 <FrozenZia> I'm just back from a trip to Japan, and have some credit card purchases (and cash) made in Yen...
05:37:44 <FrozenZia> The user's guide leaves a bit to be desired as regards how to handle this.
05:38:24 <FrozenZia> "1) Use GnuCash build in currency exchange between accounts when you do your transactions. This is mainly used for one time transactions, and nothing which happens regurarly."
05:38:49 <cortana> what currency is the credit card in/
05:39:03 <FrozenZia> euros
05:39:26 <cortana> is that your 'default' currency?
05:39:29 <FrozenZia> Yes.
05:40:18 <cortana> ok then, i would create a 'Cash (¥)' account denominated in yen
05:40:28 <cortana> and cash purchases would come out of that
05:40:37 <cortana> the initial balance would be a transfer from wherever the money came from
05:40:53 <FrozenZia> that makes total sense, yes.
05:41:03 <cortana> for the credit card, i would just use my regular credit card account, and use the amounts given in your statement
05:41:24 <FrozenZia> right - just wait for the statement to arrive, then use that.
05:41:36 <FrozenZia> Well, that certainly makes sense.
05:42:27 <FrozenZia> Coming from Quicken I was hoping/assuming the "built-in" currency exchange or whatever would let me do it similarly to the way Quicken does it.
05:42:52 <cortana> how's that, out of interest?
05:43:07 <FrozenZia> (Just basically converts the values on-the-fly to the default currency, and puts the Yen amount in the memo)
05:43:38 <FrozenZia> so, you enter 73200y (actually type the "y" or whatever the shortcut key is...)
05:44:17 <cortana> mm
05:44:18 <FrozenZia> , then it does the conversion, and ends up putting something like 500e where you just typed 73200y, and puts the 73200y in the memo box
05:45:34 <cortana> i'm not sure exactly how gnucash works since it's been a year since i last did this .... but i think you just enter a transfer from your bank account to the yen account; and put the foreign currency in the amount you bought and gnucash will realise that it's a transfer between accounts denominated in different currencies
05:47:35 <FrozenZia> in the user's manual under "recording purchases in a foreign currency" there are 2 methods listed, and I guess part of my problem is that I don't fully understand the difference between the 2 methods.
05:48:11 <FrozenZia> I guess in the 2nd method "use separate accts for this Purchase",
05:48:55 <FrozenZia> if I buy groceries, I set up a separate Expenses:Groceries-YEN account, and use that and my Assets:Cash-YEN account to make the transactions...
05:49:49 <FrozenZia> That's something that I *don't* really want to do.
05:51:05 <FrozenZia> And for cash purchases I guess it'll work the way cortana has suggested -- just gotta set up the Yen cash acct, then when I use it to buy groceries from the EURO based grocery acct, GnuCash raises a flag and asks me about the conversion rate or something.
05:51:22 <FrozenZia> Guess I'll just have to try it.
05:51:32 <cortana> what happens if you transfer from your yen cash account to your regular groceries account?
05:51:47 <cortana> i think it will work -- and gnucash will use the last known price (by default) for the conversion amount
05:52:28 <cortana> i have an expenses:holidays account in GBP which i transfer from my cash € and CHF accounts when spending on holiday and it seems to work
05:53:05 <cortana> i get the felling that there is no single ideal way to keep track of multiple currencies. it rather depends what your accounting/reporting needs are
05:58:55 <FrozenZia> Thx cortana!
05:59:01 <cortana> you're welcome :)
05:59:23 <cortana> BTW, this may have come up on the mailing list before. you might get some other ideas of how to cope there too
06:01:14 <FrozenZia> ah, I'm sure it has - hadn't checked there yet for answers...
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14:02:10 <ircleuser> hello
14:02:29 *** ircleuser is now known as HumbleOne
14:02:48 <ben_goodger> hello HumbleOne
14:02:52 <HumbleOne> I'm looking for help in setting up accounts for a shared household, a roomate situation.
14:03:33 <HumbleOne> Bills come in, money is spent, and roomies give in money to pay for these costs.
14:04:25 <HumbleOne> So, does money just get spent out of the expenses, and then get allocated to accounts receivable?
14:04:37 <HumbleOne> A different receivable account for each housemate?
14:04:38 <ben_goodger> depends
14:04:58 <ben_goodger> you need an income account somewhere
14:05:25 <HumbleOne> Or do new expenses get put into accounts payable?
14:05:42 <ben_goodger> well, it depends how far you want to go
14:06:20 <ben_goodger> british accounting regulations say that expenses that have been incurred but not paid should be treated as liabilities (A/P)
14:06:55 <HumbleOne> Okay-- so I receive the bill for rent. What should the flow look like?
14:07:25 <HumbleOne> Bill for rent goes into accounts payable for the house.
14:07:31 <ben_goodger> A/P credited with the full amount, A/R accounts credited with agreed shares
14:08:00 <ben_goodger> sorry, A/R accounts debited
14:08:16 <ben_goodger> then when it's paid off, A/R accounts credited and cash account debited, and expense account debited and cash account credited
14:08:33 <HumbleOne> And where would the expense accounts come into the picture, so I can count how much is spent on what for the shared household expenses?
14:09:00 <ben_goodger> the expense accounts are debited in the final stage
14:09:47 <HumbleOne> Okay, so first step is ap increased (credited) with amount owed, a rent bill.
14:10:11 <HumbleOne> Second, ar is debited with the amount to be paid by each.
14:10:17 <HumbleOne> What's third?
14:10:43 <HumbleOne> And thank you-- I've been trying to wrap my head around this for a second.
14:10:58 <ben_goodger> is it all being paid simultaneously, or is someone looking after the money?
14:11:25 <warlord> I wouldn't use A/R and A/P for this
14:11:38 <HumbleOne> At this point, it's just me and my roomie setting up accounting for shared expenses.
14:11:40 <warlord> I'd just use a standard Asset or Liability for each roomie
14:11:57 <ben_goodger> warlord: I cannot see any practical difference for this purpose
14:12:00 <HumbleOne> In the future, we might add a few people.
14:12:16 <warlord> ben_goodger: A/R and A/P are very heavyweight
14:12:32 <ben_goodger> very well
14:12:47 <HumbleOne> What are the hypothetical differences between ar/ap and just assets/liabilities? You can create invoices for ar, yes?
14:13:30 <warlord> ar/ap are for Invoices/Bills and /require/ you to use the Business features.
14:13:31 <HumbleOne> Okay, so an asset account for what each person owes to the shared kitty, and a liability account for what the household accounts owes to vendors and landlord.
14:13:45 <ben_goodger> yes
14:13:46 <HumbleOne> Where can I read up on this?
14:13:53 <HumbleOne> the Business features?
14:14:00 <ben_goodger> HumbleOne: pretty much any basic accounting textbook...
14:14:11 <HumbleOne> No, as much as GNUcash is concerned.
14:14:14 <ben_goodger> the gnucash documentation is pretty good at explaining the basics
14:14:36 <ben_goodger> and obviously very good at explaining gnucash itself
14:15:18 <HumbleOne> okay, well here's the order of things for our hypothetical rent bill: 1. debit ap or liability account/credit ar or asset account 2. ????
14:15:35 <warlord> I wouldn't use the liability account -- just pay it out.
14:15:50 <warlord> Have a Checking account, Assets for each member, and Expenses.
14:16:02 <HumbleOne> just use the expense accounts?
14:16:31 <warlord> Dont do it for the 'house' -- do it from you.
14:16:55 <warlord> Rent comes in: Checking -> Expenses:Rent, Assets:Roomie
14:17:07 <warlord> When roomie pays you back: Assets:Roomie -> Checking
14:17:46 <warlord> If you really DO deal in cash all the time and have a real kitty, then I suppose you could arrange it differently.
14:18:06 <HumbleOne> Oh, no, that's not going to work. We need a central ledger of all shared expenses and who paid what. Otherwise, we get into disagreements. We'd agreed that we would learn how to treat this like a business.
14:18:22 <HumbleOne> And then, when we add a few more housemates soon, it will be less of a hassle.
14:19:01 <HumbleOne> I already keep my accounts in Gnucash in the way you mention. But the house is an ongoing enterprise separate from my finances or that of the current roommate(s).
14:19:59 <warlord> Okay, you can do it differently that way.. Everyone pays into the kitty per se, even if it's a virtual kitty.. and all expenses get paid out of the virtual kitty..
14:21:38 <warlord> So rent gets paid from the kitty: Assets:Kitty -> Expenses:Rent
14:21:55 <warlord> You pay into the kitty: Income:Me -> Assets:Kitty
14:23:54 <warlord> The problem with this, of course, is linking the bills due to how much people owe in..
14:24:14 <HumbleOne> Okay-- paying for groceries (since we share meals) 1. Jane pays for groceries, gives an expense report to the house 2. Agreed upon portions of Jane's expenses are debited from a/p (or a liability account)/and credited to a/r (or assets). At what point did we track that the expense accrues to the Expenses:grocery account?
14:24:27 <HumbleOne> warlord: exactly.
14:24:39 <warlord> You almost want two txns.
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14:25:50 <HumbleOne> yeah, this is the part I'm confused about. Where is the expense account in all this?
14:28:06 <HumbleOne> I'm confused about where the expense accounts come in. Meh.
14:29:23 <warlord> Yeah.
14:30:15 <HumbleOne> Which hotshot would know this?
14:30:26 <warlord> What you're trying to do really is not standard accounting practice.
14:30:57 <HumbleOne> Okay, so what is?
14:31:14 <HumbleOne> Pretend, if you want, that I'm a rooming house.
14:31:30 <HumbleOne> Instead of a shared cooperative.
14:32:33 <warlord> The books are from one person's point of view only. When you have a shared expense, it's only an "expense" for your portion. The other portions of the "expense" get distributed to the various co-habitor's "I owe this" amounts.
14:32:51 <warlord> So let's take your grocery example.
14:32:58 <warlord> Assume the total grocery bill is $100.
14:33:27 <warlord> Your portion is $40, person A's portion is $35, and person B's portion is $25.
14:33:35 <HumbleOne> Okay.
14:33:40 <warlord> Let's also assume that you're running the books.
14:33:55 <warlord> Let's further assume that B paid.
14:35:37 <HumbleOne> Okay.
14:38:08 <HumbleOne> I'm still with you.
14:39:40 <warlord> Yeah, I lost myself so I'm working it out again in my head. If it was YOU paying then you'd Credit Assets:Checking by $100 and then allocate your Debit splits: $40 to Expenses:Groceries, $35 to Assets:A, and $25 to Assets:B
14:41:49 <HumbleOne> right, if it were just myself
14:42:15 <warlord> With B paying it would Credit Assets:B by $100 and then split the debits: $40 to Liabilities:What I Owe, $35 to Assets:A and $25 to Expenses:Groceries.. I think.
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14:42:23 <warlord> No, it's not just yourself.
14:42:44 <warlord> You now have Assets:A which is how much A owes, and Assets:B which is how much B owes.
14:42:56 <warlord> You could extend that out to as many people as you want.
14:44:11 <warlord> Ah, no, that's wrong..
14:45:15 <HumbleOne> Something is sticky here. Alas.
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14:46:12 <ergo> hi
14:46:20 <HumbleOne> hullo ergo
14:46:45 <HumbleOne> hullo therefore, I'm forewith
14:48:05 <warlord> Well, think about it like a business.. Instead of thinking about B paying for the groceries.. Think about it as B giving you the $100 and then you paying for the groceries. So when B pays you credit Assets:B $100, then allocate the debits: $40 to Expenses:Groceries, $35 to Assets:A, and $25 to Assets:B
14:48:23 <warlord> So, B reduces the amount they owe you by $75.
14:49:05 <warlord> So the Debits are always allocated the same way based on the way you'd split the transaction. The only difference is where you Credit.
14:49:12 <warlord> And you Credit based on who paid.
14:49:38 <warlord> Does that make sense, HumbleOne ?
14:52:22 <ergo> who starts gconfd when I use gnucash? I have two installations on Mac OS X with x11 and without x11, in the latter gconfd doesn't start and gnucash cannot access his settings
14:53:01 <warlord> The gconf API should fire off a gconfd process.. But that implies it can find it.
14:55:11 <HumbleOne> warlord: it may help to think of the house as having a checking account
14:55:55 <warlord> HumbleOne: in THAT case you never have Expenses.
14:57:44 <ergo> warlord: where does the gconf API look for it? in /usr/libexec/? Or does it need dbus?
14:57:56 <warlord> It would be Assets:Checking -> Assets:A, Assets:B, Assets:C
14:58:00 <warlord> ergo: ORBit
15:00:46 <ergo> warlord: orbit has been installed as well as a dependency, is there a way to track the calls ?
15:00:59 <warlord> on Linux I'd say "use strace".
15:01:34 <ergo> warlord: I was afraid you would tell me this ;-)
15:04:14 <warlord> I'm sure there's a Mac equiv.
15:10:56 <ben_goodger> *cough*strace*cough*
15:12:21 <warlord> heh
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15:32:30 <HumbleOne> I think I need help getting my head around a/p and a/r
15:34:36 <warlord> A/R and A/P are REceivables and Payables..
15:42:12 <HumbleOne> right, but in practice, money either leaves the organization through accounts payable *or* expenses. But if I'm billed for something, doesn't that mean it's both an expense and a payable?
15:43:08 <warlord> Normally it's Payable -> Expense and then later Asset -> Payable
15:43:27 <warlord> Same thing for Receivables.. It's Income -> Receivable, then later Receivable -> Asset
15:49:49 <HumbleOne> warlord: ah, I'm screwed. Again, supposing there is a cooperative household. We have four subtenants and a landlord. Landlord charges rent (-a/r, +a/p). Subtenant pays rent (-a/p, +checking). Cooperative pays rent (-checking, +a/r). Is that a reasonable way of doing things?
15:50:43 <warlord> no need to use a/r and a/p then. You could just use a regular Asset and Liability
15:51:02 <HumbleOne> Warlord: in what cases are a/r and a/p useful?
15:51:19 <warlord> a/r -- if you're actually sending out invoices.
15:51:22 <warlord> a/p.. umm...
15:52:48 <HumbleOne> If the coop owes back rent? If the coop generates receipts?
15:53:07 <HumbleOne> Does anyone actually generate invoices with GnuCash?
15:55:20 <warlord> I do for my consulting business. but it's really a business.
15:55:49 <HumbleOne> okay, getting the a/p out of the way.
15:56:01 <warlord> I only use A/R
15:56:05 <HumbleOne> warlord: and I suspect you know scheme and how to set up reports in gnucash
15:56:13 <warlord> yeah
15:56:19 <HumbleOne> No receipts? Bleh.
15:56:24 <HumbleOne> Okay.
15:56:32 <warlord> receipts?
15:57:21 <HumbleOne> You don't provide receipts to clients that pay you?
15:57:40 <warlord> Why would I need to? Their check is their receipt
15:58:41 <HumbleOne> That is true. But maybe they'd like to have an audit record that they did pay the bill to you? I suppose there are canceled checks.
15:59:05 <HumbleOne> You really do have to use scheme fanciness to fix up invoices and reports, right?
15:59:10 <HumbleOne> I'm not just imagining that.
16:00:47 <warlord> Define "fix up"?
16:01:37 <warlord> (i need to leave in a minute)
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17:41:05 <dennis> Hi! Any chance to meet Albert Lash here?
17:42:54 <dennis> or, anyone else aware of SQL backend?
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17:54:34 <dbreiser> dennis: how aware?
17:55:24 <dbreiser> the current svn trunk has the libdbi (sqlite (and maybe mysql and postgres)) backend in it
17:57:43 <dennis> dbreiser: sorry /me were out for tea :)
17:58:21 <dbreiser> I figure if I answer after 10 minutes, there will be a lag
17:58:51 <dennis> dbreiser: I looked through code, but only really "glanced" it.
17:59:17 <dbreiser> I've only used sqlite, and not very extensively. Seems to work though
17:59:45 <dennis> that's good news. Where can I find any clues on data model and "backend API"?
18:00:13 <dbreiser> other than the code itself, I don't think there is other documentation
18:00:43 <dennis> ok, got it.
18:01:35 <dennis> dbreiser: one more question: I never use sqlite. Is it able to run multiuser?
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18:02:18 <dbreiser> I have no clue on that -- I've only ever used it single user. I don't think the gnucash code has multiuser hooks in it yet
18:03:22 <dennis> well. something wispering me that gnc could need some redesign... :)
18:03:41 <dennis> dbreiser: anyway, thanks for directions.
18:03:46 <dbreiser> sure. know anyone with a couple extra person-years for coding?
18:04:09 * dennis gone reading nightly C code
18:05:00 <dennis> Well, no :)
18:05:16 <dennis> Just couple oh hours a week, probably :(
18:06:22 <dbreiser> the state or many open source projects, unfortunatelly
18:06:37 <dennis> yup.
18:06:41 <dbreiser> s/or/of
18:07:16 <dennis> Good C/C++ developers age aging, married and has kids. that's it.
18:07:39 <dbreiser> the sad part for me is it takes me about 10x as long as a real programmer to accomplish much...
18:08:19 <dbreiser> I tear off tiny bits and pieces and try to make them better.
18:09:56 <dennis> It's all just a matter of practice and experience. Some effort is better then no effort.
18:10:30 <dennis> I hope, I would have some spare hours to work on project, but can't promise it yet.
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18:11:29 <dennis> little nit overloaded on day-job and kids are demanding for father too. :)
18:11:42 <dennis> s/nit/bit/
18:12:04 <dbreiser> my younger one is at the age where she likes to deny she has parents at all.
18:12:17 <dbreiser> but that means we have to pay more attention...
18:12:25 <dennis> yup.
18:12:41 <dennis> mine are youger :)
18:12:56 <dbreiser> been there, too :)
18:13:01 <dennis> :)
18:13:30 <dennis> Ok. Let's do some code reading before going to sleep.
18:13:48 <dennis> See you later! And thanks again.
18:13:55 <dbreiser> good luck. I'm sure the sql crew of one or two will be thrilled
18:14:04 <dbreiser> see you.
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23:44:13 <marnanel> Hello. My coworker is asking me about accounting software to run under Linux. I've always used Gnucash, but for personal use; he wants to run the business with it and specifically wants to know whether he can print a 1099-MISC with it.
23:44:28 <marnanel> Does anyone know? (He also wanted to print cheques, but I know it can do that.)
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23:45:49 <warlord> gnucash does not have a 1099-MISC report.
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