2008-10-19 GnuCash IRC logs
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00:46:14 <Methos> hello?
00:46:21 <Methos> anybody out there?
00:47:01 <Methos> i need help guys
00:50:20 <arhart> what's your question?
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07:15:41 <unixSnob> how do folks deal with the fact that expense accounts associated with exactly one currency?
07:16:26 <unixSnob> Eg. I have an expense account for electronics. Sometimes I buy european electronics (in euros) and sometimes in USD from the states
07:18:08 <unixSnob> it seems to be an oversight. for expense accounts, each transaction could be in any currency
07:18:51 <unixSnob> So do I need to create two expense accounts: "electronics-euro" and "electronics-usd"?
07:19:04 <cortana> unixSnob: i have a set of accounts for each currency
07:19:26 <cortana> well, kind of. if i bought something in USD on my credit card then i just account it using the number in GBP on my statement
07:20:58 <unixSnob> cortana: so the amount on the sales receipt is not in your electronic records, correct?
07:21:17 <unixSnob> I was thinking of that too.. just doing the conversion outside of the software
07:21:40 <unixSnob> but it seems sloppy, no matter how it's done
07:21:50 <cortana> yeah. i guess i don't need it. if i was running a business then it might be necessary to keep that around
07:23:47 <unixSnob> i'm tempted to try two hierarchies.. Expenses:USD:electronics, and Expenses:euro:electronics
07:25:17 <cortana> now that i think about it, what i said was wrong before. i don't track expenses with separate accounts per currency. just assets.
07:25:22 <unixSnob> I could do it your way.. but I'm thinking if I move back to the states, I would not want to do that currency conversion outside of the software for every entry
07:26:59 <unixSnob> i wonder how assets ties into this.. I've trained myself to use MS Money for so long, the gnucash approach is foreign to me
07:27:15 <cortana> i let gnucash take care of it actually... e.g., transfer USD 100 from cash:$ to expenses:electronics, and then correct the amount in the expense account... gnucash realises that i converted the currency and keeps track of the price
07:27:22 <cortana> i don't do it very often so i can't remember if that's the exact procedure
07:29:16 <unixSnob> well one of the reasons I'm switch to gnucash is the ability to handle cross-currency transactions. And it seems to do that well from one account to the next, until it comes to expenses in the expense account
07:29:59 <cortana> if no one else is here, i'd try asking on the mailing list
07:30:29 <cortana> you may also find http://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/gnucash.html and http://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/ helpful (thought they may refer to an older version of gnucash)
07:30:50 <unixSnob> i'll look for the mailing list
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08:22:32 <unixSnob> it looks like one of the hacks is to create currency conversion accounts. it's difficult to understand, but supposedly the most proper way to deal with the currency limitation
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08:25:19 <unixSnob> but i have to think.. suppose gnucash fixes that problem in the future? it might be easier to convert the data if each currency has a separate tree of expense accounts
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09:40:58 <warlord> unixSnob: Yes, each account may hold exactly one currency
09:41:01 <warlord> (or commodity)
09:41:12 <warlord> if you want to track EUR and USD then yes, you need two accounts.
09:41:55 <unixSnob> okay, thanks
09:43:30 <warlord> But like cortana, when I travel internationally I just convert everything back to USD.
09:44:06 <warlord> So when I had dinner for €25 I would put the 25€ in the description but the amount I'd convert to USD.
09:44:20 <unixSnob> warlord: what about simply lying on the exchange rate?
09:44:49 <warlord> So I could still see that I spent 25€ -- but my account would say e.g. $40.41
09:44:54 <warlord> What do you mean?
09:46:18 <unixSnob> warlord: suppose you write the dinner at a cost of 25, but then use a bogus exchange rate to make the amount correct on the asset account that it draws from
09:46:48 <unixSnob> i guess the totals wouldn't be accurent then
09:47:01 <warlord> Right
09:47:11 <warlord> Then the accounts wouldn't balance.
09:50:15 <unixSnob> i think they would balance.. that would be the point in doing it. But the reports would be wrong
09:51:04 <unixSnob> gnucash really needs to make expense accounts currency independant, so each transaction can have a difference currency
09:51:37 <warlord> Nah, just have Expenses:Foo:{USD,EUR,...}
09:51:52 <warlord> The 1 currency per account is extremely powerful.
09:52:13 <warlord> Otherwise you need to add lots of logic before you sum up an account balance.
09:52:34 <warlord> Why should an expense be any different than a Bank Account?
09:52:37 <unixSnob> in the case of expenses, it's a limitation.
09:52:57 <unixSnob> bank accounts are usually tied to a single currency
09:53:24 <warlord> "usually"? I've never seen or heard of a multi-currency bank account.
09:53:26 <unixSnob> but you raise a good point there.. because there does exist some offshore accounts that are multi-currency
09:54:09 <unixSnob> you can get a multi-currency bank account in the channel islands; and i'm not sure how gnucash would handle it
09:54:25 <warlord> You would need a subaccount per currency
09:54:50 <unixSnob> yeah, that's how you cope with the software limitation, it seems
09:55:04 <warlord> all accounts, of any type, can hold one 1 commodity.
09:55:18 <warlord> (where a currency is one type of commodity)
09:55:52 <unixSnob> If I want to know how much i spent on electronics in 2007, I want a total, not a separate total per currency
09:56:28 <unixSnob> i have no interest in knowing the USD expenses separate from euro expenses
09:59:08 <warlord> But you have to. If you spent $100 and €50 what's your total expenditure?
09:59:14 <warlord> It's not 150
09:59:25 <warlord> It's $100 and €50
09:59:32 <unixSnob> it's almost tolerable for someone working in just 2 currencies -- but it would be hell for a world traveler, who might buy electronics in 5 different currencies
09:59:47 <warlord> Now, you could artificially convert everything to a single currency to add it up.
10:00:09 <unixSnob> warlord: well sure the total would account for varying currencies
10:00:23 <warlord> Then use subaccounts
10:01:30 <warlord> Also keep in mind that generally when multi-currency expenses you want to account for the exchange rate at the time of the expense.
10:01:52 <warlord> (gnucash does not do a good job of that right now)
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13:13:06 <unixSnob_> any europeans here find it useful to make an expense account for VAT?
13:13:57 <unixSnob_> Belgium seems to have 3 different kinds of VAT (at different rates), depending on the product or service. I'm not sure if I should have an expense account for each.
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13:38:38 <unixSnob> why is there a "dining" account, and then a "grocery" account? why doesn't gnucash make them subaccounts of a 'food' account, by default?
13:39:13 * unixSnob wonders if it would make sense to restructure them
13:42:16 <jsled> I think an older version of the Common accounts hierarchy might do that.
13:42:33 <jsled> My hierarchy has Expenses:Food:{Groceries,Dining,Lunch}
13:43:00 <unixSnob> okay, that's just like I had mine setup in MS Money
13:43:23 <unixSnob> I mainly just want to make sure that gnucash can make reports on branches.
13:43:42 <unixSnob> Eg. can I tell it to tell me my 'food' expenses, and get a total of all subaccounts?
13:44:53 <unixSnob> or will gnucash report no expenses in food?
13:47:50 <jsled> Different reports have different policies about including sub-accounts, but generally if there's not an explicit "include subaccounts" checkbox, you just need to select all the relevant accounts in the account list in the report's options.
13:49:34 <unixSnob> one of the things I need to work out is currencies. Suppose 'food' is a EUR account, and sub accounts are a combination of euro accounts, and usd accounts. will that create a mess?
13:50:05 <unixSnob> should i make a completely separate expense tree for the other currency?
13:50:16 <jsled> yes, it will.
13:50:20 <jsled> (create a mess)
13:50:39 <jsled> Well, it likely will. GnuCash multi-currency support isn'
13:51:01 <jsled> isn't great. Maybe it'll work accidentally, but I'd tend to doubt it.
13:51:20 <jsled> At the same time, I don't really know. I haven't really tried it, or closely followed all the discussions about it.
13:51:24 <unixSnob> others have suggested making a {USD|EUR} subaccount for each expense account
13:52:20 <unixSnob> but if the option to 'include sub accounts' in calculations will then get screwed up, I wonder if each currency should have a completely separate tree of accounts
13:52:39 <unixSnob> So USD:Food, and EUR:Food would be another approach
13:52:54 <jsled> Unfortunately, each datafile/books can only have one tree of accounts.
13:53:53 <unixSnob> well, i meant: Expense:USD:Food, and Expense:EUR:Food... they would share the same root
13:54:18 <unixSnob> so technically they would be the same "Expense" tree, but separated higher up
13:54:45 <unixSnob> or should I have Expense:Food:{USD|EUR}?
13:55:14 <jsled> I can't say.
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16:52:04 <Methos> is there anyone here that could answer me?
16:54:41 <jsled> Not until you ask a question. :)
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16:57:18 <evilperro> hello party people, perhaps someone can tell me why I get "This transaction is already being edited in another register. Please finish editing it there first" - error sometimes whenever I hit enter after have written the details of items?
16:57:39 <evilperro> it prevents me from creating the transaction ;<
16:57:52 <jsled> evilperro: Do you have any other register windows open?
16:58:00 <jsled> Are you trying to use the General Ledger?
16:58:13 <evilperro> I have some other tabs open inside of gnucash if that is what you mean
16:58:18 <evilperro> some other accounts
16:58:55 <evilperro> all my accounts are, from left to right, the following: account, expenes, income, "eating out", balance shett, equity
16:59:00 <evilperro> and another one I have created
16:59:43 <evilperro> I do not understand what you mean to say with "general ledger"
16:59:43 <jsled> If you have a cursor "inside" another transaction in one of those tabs, the transaction is technically "open". You can ensure that all of those register have the Blank transaction (at the very bottom of the register) selected, which will help.
16:59:55 <evilperro> I will try it
16:59:55 <jsled> evilperro: Ah, nevermind the General Ledger, then. :)
17:00:25 <jsled> That being said, there have been bugs with that message appearing when it shouldn't be.
17:00:39 <jsled> For that … I don't quite know what to recommend except perhaps restarting.
17:01:03 <evilperro> what is the best alternative software to GNUcash?
17:01:12 <evilperro> doesn't have to be OpenSource
17:01:40 <evilperro> I have deep pookets (hush and I know my way around the internet aswell :o) :)
17:01:47 <evilperro> pockets*
17:01:49 <Methos> ok, i have a question of gnucash, how can i program expenses that happens monthly?
17:01:51 <jsled> Well, you're asking a biased group. :)
17:02:02 <evilperro> just ggive me an answer :)
17:02:23 <jsled> I've not tried any alternative for more than a few minutes, so I can't give a good one, really.
17:02:33 <evilperro> google 2 the rescue!
17:02:42 <jsled> Methos: You'll want Scheduled Transactions; see the Action menu.
17:02:56 <evilperro> I thank you jsled for your time and support
17:03:13 <jsled> evilperro: you're welcome.
17:03:13 <evilperro> I appreciate that
17:03:24 <jsled> yeah, cheers, thanks a lot. :)
17:03:32 <Methos> thanks jsled, btw, is there a room for spanish users? english is not my first language and sometimes is hard for me to explain my self
17:04:08 <jsled> Methos: I'm pretty sure there is not. I'll be patient; your english is substantially better than my Spanish! :)
17:05:12 <Methos> ok, how about credit card payments, i want to... schedule regular payments for my credit card, with my current interest rate
17:06:37 <jsled> That would fall under the same feature … except for one small problem with making the payments as a function of the current interest rate and account balance.
17:07:26 <jsled> While the scheduled "template" transactions that get created can be defined in terms of variables, there does not exist a function which will get the balance of the account as of a given date, which means the template transaction cannot automatically compute the correct value.
17:07:39 <Methos> uh... i've been using gnucash for only 2 days... i love it so far, but i havent got that far
17:07:41 <jsled> *But*, you could create the scheduled transaction to have it prompt you for the appropriate value.
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