2008-07-30 GnuCash IRC logs
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08:23:03 <bluefox> for an apartment, should I account the lease as a loan upfront, or as rent expense?
08:31:59 <yrro> are you going to get it back later?
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08:43:52 <mschiff> hi all, when is 2.2.6 going to be released?
08:47:31 <bluefox> yrro: rent is like, you pay $750/month?
08:47:37 <bluefox> but the lease says it's $14000 total?
08:47:52 <bluefox> you don't usually get that back, duh
08:48:21 <bluefox> for the term of Twenty Four (24) months beginning on August 1, 2008 and ending on July 31, 2010 (the “Term”), at a total rental of Seventeen
08:48:21 <bluefox> Thousand Four Hundred Dollars and no cents ($17,400.00) for said term, payable in equal monthly installments of Seven Hundred Twenty Five
08:48:21 <bluefox> Dollars and no cents ($725.00) in advance on the first day of each month.
09:03:16 <yrro> sounds like an expense
09:09:43 <bluefox> per month?
09:10:35 * bluefox is trying to figure out whether to expense $17400 against a loan and pay $725/mo into the liability, or expense $725/month
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09:30:23 <jsled> bluefox: I'd just do it as a rent expense.
09:30:45 <bluefox> ok
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14:16:55 <Rolf1> warlord: I hope you're not going to pull out your "german accounting is weird" because I don't know the exact term in English
14:17:11 <warlord> ???
14:17:27 <Rolf1> But I wonder if gnucash support tagging or flagging transactions with additional information
14:17:50 <Rolf1> Let me try to give you an example of what this is used for here
14:18:28 <warlord> Go ahead, but I suspect you mean something like Quicken Classes?
14:18:35 <Rolf1> You have an additional field for every transaction that you can use to do more fine-grained reporting
14:18:45 * Rolf1 knows nothing about quicken
14:18:55 <Rolf1> This is for business accounting
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14:19:17 <Rolf1> I can put for example the "C100" code into that field
14:19:26 <Rolf1> C100 being customer100
14:19:41 <warlord> You can't use the Notes field for this?
14:19:44 <Rolf1> I can then track expenses I made on behalf of customer100 without entering them twice
14:20:03 <Rolf1> warlord: Can you use the notes field for automatic reporting?
14:20:06 * Rolf1 doubts that
14:20:54 <warlord> Define "automatic reporting"?
14:21:06 <warlord> I'm sure you could write a report to key off anything.
14:21:08 <Rolf1> This should be a situation that American lawyers and consultants should encounter just like their European counterparts (believe me, German accounting is not as strange as just think it is)
14:21:56 <Rolf1> automatic reporting = I click on a button and get a report of expenses by type per customer
14:22:18 <Rolf1> It's an informational overlay
14:22:20 <warlord> Well, no such report currently exists. So...
14:22:26 <Rolf1> But I am afraid gnucash does not have that
14:22:31 <warlord> No, GnuCash does not (currenltly) have tags
14:22:37 <Rolf1> well, if the report does not exist, that would be onething
14:22:41 <warlord> It's actually an often-requested feature.
14:22:53 <Rolf1> You never needed it?
14:22:58 <warlord> Me personally? Nope.
14:23:06 <Rolf1> no other business user ever needed it?
14:23:18 <warlord> I have no idea..
14:23:24 <warlord> But as I said, people /have/ requested it.
14:24:30 <Rolf1> how difficult can it be to add another field?
14:25:29 <andrewsw> better to just write a report that filters on the notes field, probably
14:25:55 <warlord> Not terribly. You'd have to add it to the Txn model, add it to the register model, add it to the register UI, and then write the report to key off it.
14:26:17 <warlord> Oh, and maybe add it to the backends (depending on how you decide to store it)
14:26:36 <warlord> Although I'd say store it as a kvp so no need to modify the xml backend.
14:27:06 * Rolf1 sees the number of things were gnucash can't help yet increasing and is beaten down
14:27:15 * Rolf1 again
14:27:48 * warlord is not beating you down this time, rolf.
14:27:59 <warlord> I think adding a "Txn Tag" would be a Good Thing for our users.
14:28:52 <Rolf1> yeah it would be awesome
14:29:05 * warlord waits for your patch ;)
14:29:10 <warlord> (excitedly)
14:29:19 <Rolf1> I meant "disappointed", "loosing hope"
14:29:30 <Rolf1> -> beaten down
14:29:36 <Rolf1> not sure it's proper English
14:29:38 <Rolf1> too tired
14:29:53 <warlord> Why are you losing hope?
14:30:08 <warlord> You're trying to get GnuCash to do things it never did before. That's going to necessarily involve writing code.
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15:02:04 <Rolf1> well, I'm loosing hope again because as you know, I can't code. both time restraint and skill restraint
15:02:24 <Rolf1> I thought gnucash was basically usable
15:02:35 <Rolf1> It is, but only 90%
15:02:45 <Rolf1> as far as business is concerned
15:03:18 <Rolf1> I thought it was more like 98% and I could help in covering the last 2%
15:03:59 <warlord> ah. i see.
15:04:11 <warlord> gotta run -- need to find a collegue.
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15:08:44 <micha> Rolf1: interesting idea
15:09:16 <Rolf1> I think it is an absolute essential
15:09:47 <Rolf1> And the long list of stuff which I consider essential which is not in gnucash is what is so discouraging to me
15:10:02 <Rolf1> because I can see the current devs not needing it
15:10:12 <micha> but if at all it should be done thoroughly right
15:11:50 <micha> the last weeks I discovered Gnucash has Python bindings now. This is kewl, as it probably will allow my own billing software (rather complex constraints to be followed) to add Gnucash transactions directly
15:12:21 <Rolf1> yes
15:12:27 <Rolf1> stuff like that gave me hope
15:12:28 <micha> but I didn't check it out yet
15:12:36 <Rolf1> I did a little bit
15:12:53 <micha> I've read it on the mailing list
15:13:05 <Rolf1> the reporting in gnucash is so bad, those binding are the only hope I have left for some rather simple reports I am looking for
15:13:12 <Rolf1> This is really crazy
15:13:25 <cortana> python bindings?!?!
15:13:26 <cortana> omg!
15:14:07 <Rolf1> Even though my python foo is very weak, I was thinking about maybe writing the stuff I need in python
15:14:14 <Rolf1> I'd accept the clunkiness
15:14:35 <Rolf1> But I soon realized, I'd be close to rewriting a complete accounting package
15:14:40 <micha> what kind of reports do you really need?
15:15:06 <Rolf1> and in that case, I could just try and write it from scratch in python and gtk
15:15:17 <Rolf1> Well, there is just a few reports I really need
15:15:29 <jsled> Rolf1: yup.
15:15:30 <jsled> :)
15:15:49 <Rolf1> What gnucash needs is a flexible reporting system even more than individual reports
15:15:56 <jsled> Nope.
15:16:07 <jsled> I've never once seen a "flexible reporting system" of any value.
15:16:16 <Rolf1> micha: The reports I need are Umsatzsteuervoranmeldung and Einkommenüberschußrechnung
15:16:17 <micha> what do you mean by "flexible"?
15:16:48 <Rolf1> jsled: Maybe my wording is bad. But micha is asking the right questions ;-)
15:17:07 <jsled> At the end of the day, reporting needs to query, massage, aggregate and format/template data.
15:17:18 <micha> Rolf1: I had times when I needed to do Umsatzsteuervoranmeldung too. I were quite confident with what Gnucash already has.
15:17:19 <Rolf1> micha: flexible meaning you can basically pull out any data that is in gnucash as you want it without becoming a scheme wizard
15:17:22 <jsled> Which is, uh, turing compelte.
15:17:56 <Rolf1> micha: for standard stuff, maybe
15:18:06 <Rolf1> I am fairly standard
15:18:30 <Rolf1> But I doubt gnucash can easily, flexibly and maintainably do it for me
15:18:46 <micha> but doesn't it all break down to simple output of certain account balances at given points in time?
15:18:47 <Rolf1> There are about 20 fields on UStVa
15:18:54 <Rolf1> The average person needs maybe three
15:19:02 <Rolf1> micha: Exactly
15:19:04 <Rolf1> it does
15:19:13 <Rolf1> it is all just plus and minus
15:19:24 <Rolf1> but gnucash can't do it
15:19:32 <Rolf1> without a *LOT* of hand-holding
15:19:32 <jsled> sure it can.
15:19:36 <jsled> That's the problem.
15:19:49 <Rolf1> well, I can do an UStVa with an abacus
15:19:54 <Rolf1> so what?
15:19:55 <jsled> The problems are a) scheme. b) an un-structured reporting framework.
15:20:10 <Rolf1> that is not the point, software is supposed to save me time. gnucash would not
15:20:18 <Rolf1> jsled: exactly
15:20:27 <Rolf1> and lack of any documentation
15:20:29 <jsled> c) an overwhelming set of app and UI bugs that make writing custom reports painfully slow.
15:20:44 <micha> I think the first step in your direction would be to give the user (even more) ways to create reports...
15:20:46 <andi5> jsled: i know you had plans for the reporting framework... would you mind plotting your ideas somewhere?
15:21:01 <jsled> andi5: I have, in gnucash-user, months and months ago.
15:21:03 <Rolf1> looks like the problems are rather well known. The question is if it will be possible to fix them
15:21:27 <andi5> oh, i do not actively follow gnucash-user, ... to many mails (~350 unread again)
15:21:33 <andi5> +o
15:21:39 <jsled> I'm up to 1586 unread. :)
15:21:52 <andi5> yes, but i tend to mark them read quite quickly
15:21:56 <jsled> Ah.
15:22:19 <Rolf1> micha: I sort of slipped on your question. I'd be looking for something as simple as the cross-table wizard (Kreuztabelle) in OOo.org Spreadsheet or Excel. Define what input fields and what to do with the value. That is flexibility as I want it
15:22:49 <Rolf1> I mean, gnucash cannot even delete custom reports once I created them (which is pretty unobvious)
15:22:52 <micha> hmm, I'll think about it. Sounds useful :)
15:22:54 <andi5> jsled: a link would be quite cool... would help me to estimate whether checking out webkit is a reasonable middle-term goal or not
15:23:00 * Rolf1 apologizes for continuously ranting
15:23:01 <Rolf1> ;-)
15:23:11 <jsled> andi5: webkit would help.
15:23:51 <jsled> andi5: found it http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-devel/2007-October/021513.html
15:24:05 <andi5> ah, thanks!
15:24:25 <jsled> I started with rewriting the options code and got depressed.
15:25:16 <micha> what is HIG-compliant?
15:27:26 <andi5> jsled: why that?
15:27:44 <jsled> Why start there?
15:27:48 <jsled> Or why depressed?
15:27:53 <andi5> why depressed
15:28:14 <jsled> Oh. Cause trying to maintain backward compatibility is hard, and not very rewarding.
15:28:20 <andi5> micha: http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/
15:28:26 <jsled> And the changes are quite extensive, &c.
15:28:35 <andi5> yep...
15:29:29 <Rolf1> jsled: open a git branch, test stuff out, and throw the old stuff away once your new code can replace it
15:29:50 <jsled> Rolf1: yes, of course, that's what I did.
15:29:59 <micha> andi5: interesting link :)
15:32:46 <Rolf1> micha: If you do anything in python, let me know
15:32:54 <Rolf1> Maybe I can contribute just the teeniest of bits
15:34:41 <micha> will do
15:36:39 <Rolf1> Is there any documentation for what "ref" and "act" are supposed to mean in the ledger?
15:36:57 <Rolf1> I think this is particular to AR or AP accounts
15:37:07 <Rolf1> I guess reference and action
15:37:15 <Rolf1> but what is those fields' meaning?
15:37:42 <Rolf1> I assume type P and I are meant to stand for Payable and Invoice
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19:18:12 <warlord> Rolf1: Payment and Invoice
19:19:16 <Rolf1> Is there any kind of somewhat uptodate documentation on this?
19:19:30 <Rolf1> The interface, some of the windows?
19:19:42 <Rolf1> It is not always self-explanatory
19:22:55 <warlord> Ummmmm....
19:22:57 <warlord> Not really.
19:23:00 <warlord> Tool tips
19:23:03 <warlord> Source code.
19:23:09 <warlord> Some emails from 2001
19:23:19 <warlord> Some really out of date design docs in the source tree.
19:23:25 <warlord> ... and in my brain.
19:23:37 <warlord> (the latter being the most coherent, next to the source code itself)
19:23:57 <andi5> >>> warlord.dump()
19:24:04 <jsled> heh
19:24:29 <andi5> (actually, i wanted to write warlord ! dump, but was not sure whether that was ambiguous to some of you :))
19:24:47 <warlord> Error.Fatal.Language-Failure
19:25:01 <andi5> ah, come on
19:25:04 <warlord> warlord!dump sounds like a bitnet address to me.
19:25:29 <warlord> andi5: what? it was PYTHON.. That's a perfectly reasonable language failure! :-)
19:25:35 <andi5> hehe
19:25:43 <jsled> andi5: erlang?
19:25:48 <andi5> jsled: bingo :)
19:27:05 <jsled> andi5: you've seen http://youtube.com/watch?v=uKfKtXYLG78 ?
19:27:25 <andi5> sure
19:28:08 <andi5> http://damienkatz.net/2008/03/what_sucks_abou.html
19:28:24 <jsled> Oh man, I forgot how awesome this video is.
19:28:29 <andi5> hehe
19:28:31 <jsled> "Hello Joe!"
19:28:43 <andi5> those are the swedes
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19:30:05 <andi5> jsled: you remember, i wrote about tagging mails as read? .... i cannot stand the bold Drafts (1) much longer :(
19:30:33 <jsled> andi5: oh? For 2.2.6?
19:30:37 <andi5> yep
19:32:46 <andi5> damn, i cannot sleep... i am full of adrenaline still... lost my key while running, it fell into the dark grass (midnight) and i searched for it 12 minutes!... *trying to calm down*
19:33:24 <jsled> did you find it?
19:33:27 <andi5> yep =)
19:33:33 <jsled> Oh good!
19:33:36 <andi5> yep!
19:34:03 <andi5> i had visions of ants carrying it away :)
19:34:11 <jsled> heh
19:34:39 <jsled> well, I recommend a few stiff drinks, but that's what I always recommend. :)
19:34:47 * jsled goes to make dinner…
19:34:47 <andi5> lol :)
19:35:12 <andi5> let us call it an allheilmittel
19:35:48 * andi5 goes somewhere
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