2008-07-24 GnuCash IRC logs
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05:33:29 <puck> Is it possible to flag an account as "closed" so that new transactions are rejected?
05:41:32 <warlord> puck: sort of... you can call it a "placeholder
05:42:12 <puck> Change it to be a placeholder? These are bank accounts that I've closed.
05:43:26 <warlord> Yes, I understand.
05:43:36 <warlord> Mark the account as a "placeholder"
05:43:51 <warlord> then gnucash wont let you put new txns into it.
05:43:56 <warlord> (or, at least, it will complain)
05:54:33 <puck> Okay, that works for me. Should I raise a wishlist report for it? ;)
05:56:12 <warlord> a) there may already be one, and
05:56:24 <warlord> b) what's the difference with the feature being called "placeholder"?
06:02:25 <puck> a) okay, b) it is a little misleading and I think that most users wouldn't think of using it.
06:02:37 <puck> I certainly didn't and I've been using Gnucash for years! :)
06:07:59 <Rolf1> a placeholder with tx in it from the past?
06:08:06 <Rolf1> Sounds very unintuitive to me
06:08:42 <Rolf1> Interesting to see that this loophole is being put forward officially as a solution
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06:37:32 <puck> oh well, 'night
06:48:28 <warlord> the underlying functionality is no different. It's just a question of UI naming. We could change it from "placeholder" to "placeholder or closed" if it makes you feel better, but that's literally just a label on the button.
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07:25:52 <Rolf1> understood
07:26:06 <Rolf1> but that stuff is important
07:26:17 <Rolf1> not to you since you know the ins and outs of the program
07:26:36 <Rolf1> but to almost anybody else that naming on the button is important
07:26:58 <Rolf1> I suggest something like "invariable" although I believe there might be even a better word
07:27:21 <Rolf1> but essentially, it seems like that tick makes an account unchangeable
07:27:37 <Rolf1> although, thinking about it, that is not 100% true, either
07:27:49 <Rolf1> the account can still be changed
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07:28:31 <warlord> nothing is 100% unchangeable
07:29:26 <Rolf1> except human nature ;-)
07:29:29 <Rolf1> http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed§Hdr=on&spellToler=on&chinese=both&pinyin=diacritic&search=unver%E4nderlich&relink=on suggests
07:29:44 <Rolf1> immutable or invariant which I also like
07:32:06 <warlord> Immutable works. It could be "Immutable (placeholder or closed account)" -- where the (...) is in the tooltip.
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08:40:48 <Rolf1> yes, I think that is an excellent idea
08:40:55 <Rolf1> make it so
08:40:56 <Rolf1> ;-)
08:47:38 <warlord> In my copious amounts of free time :-P
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09:15:17 <lenscape> hi fellow gnucashiers. When I "find a customer" and "list invoices" - how can I get amounts in the list?
09:15:50 <warlord> it requires recompiling gnucash to add a new column to the results list.
09:16:28 <lenscape> oh. Seems like a sort of obvious one to include to me
09:18:04 <warlord> You're the first person to ask for it in 7 years.
09:18:46 <warlord> (I'm pretty sure you can't search by invoice amount, either)
09:18:55 <lenscape> remarkable. Maybe I'm the first person to use it for working with money.
09:19:02 <lenscape> :)
09:19:46 <lenscape> if I'm trying to tie up payments against entries in my bank statement, It's a whole lot easier matching amounts
09:20:10 <warlord> "working with money"?
09:20:39 <lenscape> ignore that. It didn't really work
09:20:44 <warlord> If you're trying to match payments against bank statements, that's called "reconciliation" and is done elsewhere/
09:21:01 <warlord> (elsewhere in the program)
09:23:19 <lenscape> where?
09:24:52 <lenscape> I can't find anything called "reconcilliation"
09:25:26 <warlord> Umm, from any asset/liability account, click on the "Reconcile" toolbar item.
09:25:48 <warlord> Or Actions -> Reconcile
09:25:56 <warlord> Or from the CoA you can do it, too.
09:28:03 <lenscape> Great. Thanks
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09:44:17 <Rolf1> warlord: yes, please
09:45:06 <warlord> Rolf1: ???
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09:45:24 <Rolf> (14:47:38) warlord: In my copious amounts of free time :-P
09:46:12 <Rolf> I can prepare a patch if you tell me where to change things
09:46:20 <Rolf> I assume it will be 1 file only, really
09:46:34 <Rolf> Plus translations maybe
09:47:18 <warlord> Ah. Ummm.. I dont know. search all files for the string "placeholder"?
09:48:00 <Rolf> That is going to return too many false positives
09:48:06 <Rolf> I thought you knew off-hand
09:50:11 <warlord> I'm afraid I do not.
09:50:19 <warlord> it's probably in more than one place.
09:50:31 <warlord> The Account Dialog, and the Hierarchy Druid.
09:50:35 <warlord> (at least)
09:55:28 <Rolf> I couldn't find it with grep, either
09:55:40 <Rolf> Really too many possible files
09:59:50 <warlord> sorry.
09:59:56 <warlord> I dont have a quick answer for you
10:00:18 <lenscape> The new customer form should let me create a customer without having a billing address.
10:00:45 <lenscape> I don't have a billing address. Bills are sent by emails. I have no idea where their office is. I don't think they even have one.
10:01:42 <warlord> All it needs is something on the first line of the address.
10:01:49 <lenscape> I have to enter garbage into the form just to shut it up which is a bit pointless
10:02:37 <warlord> Sorry, you fall into that small exception case.
10:02:41 <Rolf> warlord: don't worry
10:05:06 <warlord> in 95% of the cases it's not at all pointless, and it's better to make sure the user enters something than to let them go on without it. And if you enter the same string twice it will notice and only print it out once.
10:14:26 <lenscape> warlord: are you a developer?
10:15:42 <lenscape> (it's safe to say 'yes'. I don't want to beat you up)
10:35:31 <warlord> lenscape: yes. (and I wrote all the business features)
10:36:07 <lenscape> how many devs in all?
10:37:13 <warlord> "in all"? Meaning throughout all time?
10:37:20 <warlord> Or "active now"?
10:37:22 <warlord> Or ...??
10:41:05 <lenscape> active now, I guess
10:41:23 <lenscape> what sort of manpower is to hand to work on gnucash?
10:41:25 <warlord> half dozen-ish?
10:41:36 <warlord> Maybe about a total of .5-1 dev
10:42:28 <lenscape> anyone full time or is it strictly for the love of it?
10:42:48 <warlord> Strictly volunteer.
10:43:00 <lenscape> heh - not quite the same :)
10:43:22 <lenscape> what's it written in? C++ I presume?
10:45:21 <jsled> Mostly C, with some Scheme.
10:45:55 <warlord> Yeah, I'd say 80% C, 17% Scheme, 3% "other stuff"
10:46:11 <lenscape> ah yes. Scheme. hmm
10:47:35 <lenscape> I'm trying to figure out if I could help in some way. I'm a pretty competent Python programmer. Not done C for over 10 years. And no interesting in picking through Scheme
10:48:21 <Rolf> lenscape: Great
10:48:28 <Rolf> python is picking up some speed recently
10:48:38 <Rolf> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Python_Bindings
10:48:45 <lenscape> I'm also hugely competent at databases
10:48:52 <Rolf> GREAT
10:49:19 <Rolf> There is a long-going effort to base gnucash on SQL complementary to the current XML stuff
10:49:29 <Rolf> svn branch gda-dev2
10:50:01 <Rolf> http://www.parit.ca/projects/pythongnucash/
10:50:13 <Rolf> that is the guys developing the python binding stuff
10:50:23 <Rolf> It was recently committed to trunk
10:51:04 <warlord> But that doesnt mean you can extend gnucash in python. what it allows is simple, external python programs that access gnucash data files.
10:51:22 <warlord> so.. if you're wanting to work on /GNUCASH/ then python isn't how.
10:51:24 <Rolf> you can certainly do a lot of nifty things
10:51:26 <lenscape> are there plans to make gnucash back-end agnostic?
10:51:31 <Rolf> and things start small
10:51:35 <Rolf> that is the nature of things
10:52:23 <lenscape> a parallell sql port doesn't seem the best way forward to me
10:52:28 <Rolf> lenscape: Don't take my word only on the backend question. But I think some effort was being expended to slowly move in that direction. not fully agnostic, I think
10:53:00 <Rolf> but currently, people are trying with gda because it provides an additional abstraction layer for databases
10:53:06 <jsled> gnucash has tried for years to be backend-agnostic, except it only having one real backend, it's not strictly.
10:54:23 <jsled> Well … that's not quite true. It is backend agnostic, in that you can plug different backends in. But I think we're optimized for the file backend, minorly.
10:54:45 <jsled> lenscape: why don't you think that's not the best way forward? Especially after just finding out what langauge it's written in? :)
10:54:55 <warlord> it certainly doesn't require a "sql port"
10:55:11 <warlord> he's just working on a branch so he doesn't break the trunk build.
10:55:28 <warlord> gnucash /can/ use different backends. HOWEVER..
10:55:44 <warlord> .. it's really optimized for a "load everything into RAM" model.
10:55:55 <warlord> It's not really designed to do load-on-demand.
10:56:04 <warlord> (however it CAN save on demand with a SQL backend)
10:56:19 <lenscape> the problem with that approach is it's not scalable and it's not sharable.
10:56:49 <lenscape> I can't even leave it running on one PC and fire it up on another without risking chaos
10:57:19 <jsled> this we know.
10:57:24 <lenscape> I thought you might
10:57:38 <warlord> yeah, that's a known issue.
10:57:48 <warlord> the SQL backend will (hopefully) help fix some of that.
10:58:03 <warlord> but yeah, gnucash just wasn't originally designed for a multi-user model.
10:58:20 <lenscape> are there any actuall accountants on board?
10:58:27 <lenscape> *actual*
10:59:40 <Rolf> I am not an accountant
10:59:50 <Rolf> but I *want* to use it for business
11:00:10 <Rolf> German accouting is a bit strange, but we are slowly closing the holes to make it usable
11:00:47 <warlord> german requirements are just weird.
11:00:49 <Rolf> In the US and Canada, I think there are quite a number of people using it for business purposes
11:00:56 <lenscape> I *am* using it for business
11:01:00 <warlord> there are actual accountants on the lists.
11:01:02 <Rolf> warlord: your attitude on that subject is just weird
11:01:26 <warlord> Hey, it's worked fine for 7 years in pretty much every other country. ;)
11:01:26 <Rolf> From where I sit I could just as well say US accounting is strange
11:01:39 <Rolf> And in any case, accounting is not up to me to decide
11:01:49 <jsled> Let's just say government is strange, and leave it at that. :)
11:01:51 <Rolf> but largely has to fit with the requirements from the government
11:01:57 <Rolf> jsled: well said
11:01:59 <warlord> ==jsled
11:02:01 <lenscape> so: Rolf is in Germany. warlord is in US?
11:02:11 <Rolf> actually, right now
11:02:13 <Rolf> ;-)
11:02:16 <warlord> Define "in"
11:02:22 <Rolf> we are both in .de
11:02:29 <warlord> Right now I'm sitting in .de.
11:02:34 <Rolf> but warlord is from the US
11:02:34 <warlord> But I'm usually based in .us
11:02:45 <warlord> (I'll be in .ie next week)
11:03:08 <lenscape> jetsetter
11:03:19 <warlord> Tell me about it. :-/
11:03:22 <lenscape> I'm in .uk
11:03:36 <lenscape> or UK, as I normally put it
11:03:56 * warlord has a UK phone # for this trip.
11:07:24 <lenscape> is there a plan? A roadmap as some oddly like to call it?
11:07:39 <jsled> No.
11:08:03 <warlord> it's hard when we don't have a stable development pool.
11:08:21 <warlord> there are certainly things each of us would like to see happen, but getting it done is... challenging
11:09:00 * lenscape considers blowing the dust of his C manuals
11:09:05 <lenscape> *off*
11:09:15 <warlord> * offers a fan and vacuum *
11:09:44 <lenscape> actually, the language isn't a problem. It's picking up all the libraries
11:10:42 <Rolf> It would be nice to get some thinking going on how to prioritize and what features to target
11:11:22 <warlord> Rolf: the bigger concern is what features people want to work on.
11:11:25 <lenscape> I'll chew this over. I might try fixing a little bug and see how it goes.
11:11:29 <warlord> I think getting the SQL backend done is high priority.
11:11:31 <Rolf> I'm not even aware what is on each devs' mind
11:11:39 <warlord> lenscape: which bug?
11:11:57 * Rolf looks through his favourites to propose one
11:11:58 <Rolf> ;-)
11:12:03 <lenscape> when posting an invoice. You have to click in the account field even if you don't change it.
11:12:48 <warlord> I'm pretty sure that's a Gtk bug.
11:12:59 <warlord> but it's possible that there's a gnucash workaround.
11:13:04 <lenscape> or any of the nonsense loops you have to go through to create an invoice
11:13:38 <lenscape> invoice creation seems mental to me
11:13:41 <warlord> I'd love for someone to donate a GtkCompletion for lookups of Invoices, Customers, Vendors, etc.
11:14:06 <jsled> That'd be nice, but just a list would work, too.
11:14:09 <warlord> Well, it was designed to scale to businesses with hundreds or thousands of customers.
11:14:14 <Rolf> I think that would indeed be a very valued contribution
11:14:20 <lenscape> warlord: all in RAM? Really?
11:14:32 <warlord> Sure.
11:14:38 <Rolf> It might even get me to start thinking about using the business functionality
11:16:14 <lenscape> writing out megs of xml after each change will get slow and tedious
11:16:40 <jsled> It only writes at File > Save time (which is on a timer)
11:17:00 <lenscape> even more scarey
11:17:43 <jsled> Eh?
11:18:18 <jsled> Nevermind. I know what you mean.
11:18:51 <warlord> lenscape: see my statement about SQL ;)
11:19:08 <jsled> I just don't think it's "scary" ... it's just like most every other app in the world.
11:19:18 <warlord> Yeah.
11:19:21 <warlord> Like Word.
11:19:46 <lenscape> I don't use Word
11:20:07 <warlord> Do you use OOo? Emacs? Gedit?
11:20:18 <lenscape> OOo or vim
11:20:30 <jsled> Ok. Like "vim", then. :)
11:21:43 <lenscape> never heard of Gedit
11:22:13 <warlord> the point being, pretty much every application lets you make changes without saving.
11:23:12 <lenscape> with transactional apps - such as accounting - you expect entries to be saved as you go along.
11:23:33 <warlord> yeah yeah yeah.
11:23:35 * Rolf doesn't
11:23:58 <lenscape> apps that lose my data rarely get a second chance
11:24:15 <warlord> lenscape: you use vim!
11:24:30 <lenscape> vim is rock solid and never loses a keystroke
11:25:01 <lenscape> vim has the .swp file which is every key you're pressed since you opened the file.
11:25:01 <warlord> Go ahead and pull the power on your computer after you've spent an hour working on vim and see if it doesn't lose a keystroke.
11:25:26 <lenscape> I've never lost any work when I've been in vim
11:25:45 <warlord> I bet there are ways to lose work.
11:26:04 <lenscape> well a corrupt disk - sure - but that's not vim's fault
11:26:13 <warlord> computer crashing?
11:26:30 <lenscape> I use Linux.
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11:26:38 <warlord> Your point?
11:26:47 <warlord> Linux can't help when your power goes out.
11:27:04 <warlord> Or your kid (or pet) trips over your power cord.
11:27:05 <lenscape> Only once in the last 7 years has Linux crashed on me.
11:27:18 <warlord> Man! Who's your power supplier?
11:27:23 <lenscape> no pets. Kids not permitted in the office.
11:27:31 <warlord> You haven't had a power outage in 7 years? Wow!
11:27:38 <lenscape> anyway - on a laptop frequently
11:28:10 <warlord> But try it. run vim. make a bunch of changes. Then pull the power and see if your changes are still there.
11:28:31 <warlord> I'd be EXTREMELY impressed if you didn't lose at least 1 keystroke.
11:28:56 <lenscape> warlord: I have had to do it several times in real situations and I don't recall losing anything significant.
11:29:14 <warlord> Ahh, "nothing significant" != "nothing"
11:29:51 <lenscape> significant == memorable.
11:30:09 <lenscape> whatever it was - if anything - it wasn't a big deal so I was happy
11:30:18 * warlord shrugs
11:30:51 <warlord> Regardless, yes, it would be nice to have save-on-commit, which will come with SQL.
11:34:49 * lenscape will grab the sources and have a browse
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12:20:20 <lenscape> I can't figure out the reconciliation process
12:20:38 <warlord> have you read the docs on it?
12:21:15 <lenscape> no. I haven't always found the docs too illuminating so far
12:21:36 <warlord> well, what's the question(s) you have?
12:21:45 <lenscape> I'll try the docs first...
12:23:14 <warlord> okay. i'll be heading out relatively soon
12:23:35 <warlord> but pretty much anyone here can answer questions on reconciliation; it's a very straightforward process/concept.
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12:40:56 <warlord> bye all.
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