2008-07-21 GnuCash IRC logs

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00:17:25 <SN> help
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00:25:54 <jsled> SN: if you want help, you need to say more than just "help".
00:26:15 <jsled> As the topic says, ask your question and wait for an answer.
00:26:25 <SN> lol, sorry, thanks for your response
00:26:26 <jsled> Though it's late US time, so I'd not expect one quickly.
00:26:47 <SN> I mean't to type the command help, missed the /
00:26:59 <jsled> aaah. :) nevermind, then.
00:27:04 <SN> been playing with gnucash for a while
00:27:09 <SN> great program
00:27:21 <SN> saw the page on irc chat in their web site
00:27:33 <SN> just got a irc client and logged in to see what goes on here
00:27:42 <SN> not much activity, I guess
00:27:56 <SN> is there a busy time normally, if you don't mind me asking
00:28:37 <jsled> there's not really a busy time. Right now, it'd be fair to say we straddle the Atlantic.
00:28:52 <jsled> But, even so, there's not really a "busy" time.
00:28:59 <jsled> I'm to bed. 'night!
00:29:04 <SN> nite
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02:14:57 <warlord> good night, jsled
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02:15:15 <warlord-afk> .
02:15:15 <gncbot> warlord-afk: Sent 6 hours and 25 minutes ago: <andi5> i suppose r17193 and r17194 are backport-worthy?
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04:16:18 <warlord> @tell andi5 yes, r17193 and r17194 are BP worthy.
04:16:18 <gncbot> warlord: The operation succeeded.
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07:05:01 <merc> If I buy a computer, I can go from Assets:Checking account to
07:05:01 <merc> +Expenses:equipment. However, that way the computer on't show up in
07:05:01 <merc> +Assets:hardware_owned (which is an asset!). What's the right way to go
07:05:01 <merc> +about this? It's driving me bananas!!!
07:05:49 <merc> The tutorial says:
07:05:52 <merc> "The first step is to build the account hierarchy (as shown in the previous section, replace ITEM1 and ITEM2 with "car" and "camera"). Now, record the purchase of your assets by transferring the money from your bank account to the appropriate Asset Cost accounts for each item (eg: the "Assets:Fixed Assets:Car:Cost" account for the car)"
07:06:28 <merc> But that way the expense won't show up in the "expenses:Computers and equipment" ledger! Am I missing something?
07:06:31 <warlord> merc: correct. It would go from Assets:Checking to Assets:Computer
07:06:42 <warlord> It's NOT an expense.
07:06:47 <warlord> It's an asset.
07:06:54 <warlord> It's only an expense once you depreciate it.
07:07:16 <merc> OK
07:07:55 <merc> It's just a little weird that it won't show up in the "Expenses:Computer equipment" bit. It's a little bit hard to track what I've spent on computer equiipment that way...
07:08:26 <merc> But I can't seem to find a logical, functional way to have it in both (it can't work, I suppose)
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07:08:37 <warlord> Well, it's not an expense. You know how much you've spent on computer equipment because you can see the current value of your computer assets.
07:09:24 <merc> But does that mean that I won't deduct that computer from my tax, but will only deduct the depreciation?
07:09:27 <merc> (in the US that is)
07:09:54 <merc> (Warlord: you're a star. You're the good karma I accumulated supporting people using Drigg... )
07:10:51 <warlord> :-D
07:11:04 <warlord> Correct, in the US you only deduct the depreciation..
07:11:21 <warlord> (you should talk to your accountant about that)
07:11:38 <merc> Ouch. Isn't it better to put it as an expense then? Or is it not legal? (Or, is there a limit in terms of equipment where you can jut have it as a raw expense?)
07:11:58 <merc> Plus, do you know a good accountant based in Delaware who used GNUCash?
07:12:28 <merc> (ANd thanks again; this should be it :-D )
07:13:24 <warlord> IANAA, but there's a limit.
07:13:35 <warlord> I dont remember what the IRS limit is.
07:13:47 <merc> ok
07:13:57 <warlord> but the legal way to do it is to put it into an asset, and then depending on how much you bought you MAY be able to depreciate the whole thing in the first year.
07:14:06 <warlord> but if not... you have to depreciate over multiple years.
07:14:10 <merc> OK
07:14:23 <merc> And that applies to all the physical goods you buy?
07:14:41 <merc> (It doesn't apply to a consultancy fee for example, even if it's like 6000) right?
07:16:06 <warlord> You'd have to ask your accountant that. I honestly don't know.
07:16:13 <merc> ok
07:16:18 <merc> THANK YOU!!!
07:18:37 <warlord> You're welcome!
07:18:38 <warlord> :)
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07:25:15 <merc> Hey the very last thing...
07:30:43 <merc> I still find it a little weird that when you have more money in the bank, you go -AMOUNT. Although it's making more and more sense. However, "assets" are the only... err... "weird" about it. Everything else "makes sense": 1) Expenses: You spend, and you have "-". Income: You earn, and it goes "+". Liabilities: ah here is another one. You have more liabilities, and therefore have "less", and yet the bigger the liability, the more positive the number. So... am I at
07:35:00 <warlord> What do you mean, -amount ? Are you mixing up Debits and Credits?
07:36:23 <merc> nono not mixing them up. But when you deposit 1000 in the bank, the account gets DEBITED 1000 in accounting/GNUCash. That's something that takes a bit of getting used ot
07:38:21 <warlord> That's exactly correct.
07:38:31 <warlord> DEBIT increases an asset.
07:38:45 <warlord> Keep in mind that to your bank, your account is a LIABILITY!
07:38:55 <merc> I know :-D
07:39:05 <warlord> so when you deposit money they are CREDITING it. But to you it's an asset, so you DEBIT it.
07:39:16 <warlord> This is why most people get confused.
07:39:27 <merc> But my point is that only assets are.. "weird" in terms of people's intuition
07:39:35 <warlord> When you see your bank statement you're seeing it from THEIR side, Credits and Debits are reversed.
07:39:55 <merc> The rest makes sense from a "natural" perspective -- the othr accounts, that is
07:42:20 <merc> That is, it's the only one that is shown "inverted" in GNUCash, right? (In the accounts screen)
07:42:53 <merc> Oh no
07:42:57 <merc> Expenses as well
07:48:35 <warlord> It depends on your settings.
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08:06:09 <merc> How do you change them to see what's being shown as + or -?
08:06:30 <merc> I've already looked for it in settings, but couldn't find it
08:07:18 <merc> Ah there it is
08:07:53 <merc> You can reverse "income & expenses" or "credit accounts"
08:07:55 <merc> So I was right, yay!
08:08:29 <merc> Well, assuming that "credit accounts" are the one in "Assets"...? (Confused again)
08:10:48 <warlord> Have you read the docs?
08:11:12 <merc> warlords: I obviously need to read them again. Sorry. Will do.
08:12:53 <warlord> I'm /fairly/ sure that topic is discussed in them.
08:14:50 <merc> Alright
08:14:53 <merc> Thanks a billion
08:14:54 <merc> Time to go
08:14:56 <merc> Thank you again
08:14:58 <merc> See ya later!
08:15:15 <warlord> See ya!
08:15:18 <warlord> Have a great day
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09:54:36 <Rolf1> Is there somebody who can help me with my patch in bug 542606?
09:55:26 <Rolf1> I am trying to get the tax report to include asset and liability accounts (I am not saying this patch should go in as such)
09:55:50 <Rolf1> but this is needed for the way German COA works
10:00:03 <warlord> Rolf1: where do you define txf-asset-categories and txf-liability-categories?
10:00:47 <Rolf1> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=114596&action=view
10:00:56 <Rolf1> src/tax/us/txf-de_DE.scm
10:01:14 <Rolf1> I have moved K65 to liabilities
10:01:30 <Rolf1> (which would be correct in the real world)
10:01:42 <Rolf1> I can get you a complete diff
10:02:56 <Rolf1> warlord: http://oss.leggewie.org/wip/gnucash_542606.txt
10:04:35 <Rolf1> observer how the 65 entry moved from income to liabilities
10:05:22 <warlord> That whole cond statement at the beginning of the patch looks... weird.
10:05:37 <warlord> (either that or my brain has ceased functioning for the day and I should stop working)
10:07:21 <Rolf1> weird in what kind of way?
10:07:29 <Rolf1> How should it look properly
10:08:27 <Rolf1> I agree
10:08:29 <warlord> Assuming that's a let, it's useless.
10:08:41 <warlord> the if will override
10:08:41 <Rolf1> Parentheses don't match
10:08:42 <warlord> the cond
10:09:04 <warlord> and even in the cond, it will always set category-key to liabilities.
10:14:52 <andi5> yeah, it will probably make at least a little bit more sense if it was "(cond ((eq? ...) (gnc:...)) ((eq? ...) (gnc:...)) ... )"
10:16:08 <warlord> Although we probably want to create some generic "IsAssetType()", "IsLiabilityType()", etc. to combine Asset/Bank/Cash/AR and Liability/CC/AP
10:19:36 <Rolf1> does http://rafb.net/p/eZWZXM91.html make sense?
10:21:14 <warlord> Rolf1: yes, but it wont handle Cash, Bank, AR, AP, CC, etc..
10:21:56 <Rolf1> that won't be necessary
10:22:08 <Rolf1> right now the report handles income and expense accounts only
10:22:20 <Rolf1> I need assets and liabilities, too
10:22:36 <Rolf1> not all asset and liability accounts
10:22:49 <Rolf1> just assets and liabilities with respect to the government
10:22:56 <Rolf1> for that particular report
10:23:14 <Rolf1> unfortunately, while it seems to make sense, it does not produce the desired result
10:23:26 <Rolf1> liability accounts are still excluded
10:28:04 <Rolf1> BTW, do I need to restart gnucash after I changed that scheme file for changes to take effect?
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10:32:04 <warlord> Yes.
10:32:16 <warlord> Or, at least, you need to re-load the scheme.
10:32:23 <warlord> Restarting gnucash is the easiest way to re-load the scheme
10:40:56 <Rolf1> Can you help me understand lines 205 ff? http://rafb.net/p/zX5aGw25.html
10:41:06 <Rolf1> I think I'll have to fiddle there as well
10:41:41 <Rolf1> What does the income? thing do?
10:42:20 <andi5> what do you have difficulties with exactly?
10:42:41 <Rolf1> I understand this is a definition of a local function, right?
10:42:45 <Rolf1> function name is
10:42:59 <Rolf1> gnc:get-txf-format
10:43:19 <andi5> yes
10:43:20 <Rolf1> code is the first parameter and income? is an optional parameter?
10:43:45 <andi5> the function takes two parameters, code and income? ... the code comes below
10:44:02 <andi5> oh, you are right :)
10:44:15 <andi5> sort of, income? is a second, necessary parameter
10:44:43 <andi5> (i read `code` as `function code, stuff to execute`, sorry for that)
10:44:44 <warlord> income? is used as a boolean expression for whether to return txf-income-categories or txf-expense-categories..
10:44:48 <Rolf1> is code a necessary parameter?
10:44:57 <andi5> both are
10:45:00 <warlord> Or, in this case, which one to pass to gnc:txf-get-format
10:45:01 <Rolf1> OK
10:45:12 <andi5> the question mark belongs to the param name
10:46:28 <warlord> correct.
10:46:58 <warlord> the parameter is "income?" -- the ? is just to help the reader understand that it's meant as a boolean question, #t or #f
10:47:14 <Rolf1> OK, so the function returns one of two arrays now, txf-income-categories or txf-expense-categories, correct?
10:47:24 <andi5> but even that is not enforced, it is just a convention
10:48:05 <warlord> right, it's purely a naming convention. Sort of like the MS parameter naming convension like szName for a "zero-terminated string for the Name"
10:48:08 <andi5> the if returns one of the categories, which is then passed to gnc:txf-get-format
10:48:54 <andi5> (together with code)
11:22:34 <Rolf1> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=114925 should be fixing that, too, I think
11:23:03 <Rolf1> but the report seems really permeated by the assumption of "anything except income and expense does not matter"
11:24:00 <warlord> Well, at least in the US, you're only taxed on Income and only deduct Expenses.. So that's not at all an unreasonable assumption.
11:24:55 <Rolf1> the unreasonable assumption might be to try and save work by reusing that code
11:25:35 <warlord> perhaps.
11:25:35 <Rolf1> The need for asset and liability accounts in the reports and some GUI places has been explained numerous times
11:26:06 <warlord> I'm not asking you to re-explain the requirement. I believe you that it's a requirement in germany.
11:26:08 <Rolf1> The reason is that "sales taxes" owed to the government are a liability
11:26:27 <Rolf1> Taxes I should get are an asset
11:26:35 <warlord> right.
11:27:04 <Rolf1> Thus the need to have it available in places where somebody from the US might think income and expense are sufficient
11:30:03 <warlord> right.
11:30:27 * Rolf1 wonders if sales tax counts as an expense in the US
11:33:01 <Rolf1> BTW, why is it so damn complicated to get a report based on the tax key codes that are already defined and sum up transactions for all those accounts? It's a simple cross-table, for crying out loud.
11:34:38 * warlord has no idea.
11:34:46 <warlord> I've never looked at that report, either as a dev or a user.
11:34:56 <Rolf1> Maybe instead of trying to beat the US tax report into shape, I should try and add the tax key functionality to something based on the "Kontenübersicht" "account report" report
11:35:04 <warlord> (short of potentially applying patches to get it working during guile upgrades)
11:35:55 <Rolf1> warlord: Do you ever use a report that uses the information from the "tax relevant" tick?
11:36:08 <warlord> Nope
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