2008-07-11 GnuCash IRC logs

01:00:54 <Rolf1> warlord: told you
01:01:04 <Rolf1> this was to be expex'cted
01:01:40 <warlord> Wow, Rolf1 -- you're up late!
01:03:37 <warlord> And yeah.. I'll let it go overnight (because I dont plan to use my network overnight).. But I plan to stop it in the morning if it's still going.
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02:07:41 <Rolf1> warlord-afk: no, I'm up early
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08:44:16 <warlord> Rolf1: FYI, the pull is still pegging my network.. :(
08:44:45 <andi5> what is pulling? launchpad's bzr mirroring trunk?
08:44:48 * cast waves a hg flag from in the corner
08:45:21 * andi5 gives you a g, and an i and a t :)
08:45:37 <cast> pulling is when you retrieve new changesets from a remote repo
08:46:09 <andi5> i mean... who is pulling what... :)
08:46:19 <Rolf1> warlord: the import is suspended
08:46:29 <cast> ohhhhhhhhhhh
08:46:36 <Rolf1> but there is nobody awake with powers to stop the current import
08:46:53 * Rolf1 is surprised to get the import even suspended this fast
08:47:31 <warlord> It's still pulling.
08:47:56 <Rolf1> see above
08:48:02 <Rolf1> I was expecting that
08:48:31 <Rolf1> BTW, I still cannot successfully compile gnucash from latest trunk
08:48:45 <Rolf1> I am trying on another computer
08:48:54 <Rolf1> albeit with *very* little power
08:49:07 <andi5> have you tried from a clean checkout and delete installation prefix?
08:49:14 <andi5> +d
08:49:21 <Rolf1> I have completely remoce the checkout and started afresh, it still ends with error2
08:49:27 <Rolf1> andi5: yes
08:49:31 <andi5> the installation as well?
08:49:38 <Rolf1> installation?
08:49:47 <Rolf1> I removed the complete trunk directory
08:49:49 <andi5> yes, i suppose you installed into some prefix
08:50:01 <Rolf1> trunk went into gnucash dir
08:50:05 <Rolf1> rm -Rf gnucash
08:50:13 <andi5> inside the source tree? ok
08:56:01 <warlord> You install gnucash inside your source tree? Weird.
08:56:44 <Rolf1> no
08:56:55 <warlord> where do you install gnucash?
08:57:00 <andi5> *g*
08:57:03 <warlord> what's your --prefix ?
08:57:15 <andi5> /usr/local, i guess
08:57:29 <Rolf1> "svn checkout http://svn.gnucash.org/repo/gnucash/trunk gnucash && cd gnucash && [tried stuff and failed && cd .. && rm -Rf gnucash"
08:57:33 <warlord> I guess you can try "make uninstall"
08:57:41 <Rolf1> make fails
08:57:47 <andi5> Rolf1: you have built and installed gnucash trunk before, right?
08:57:48 <Rolf1> I don't even get to make install
08:57:51 <Rolf1> yes
08:57:55 <Rolf1> couple of times
08:57:58 <andi5> where did you install it?
08:57:58 <Rolf1> Even yesterday
08:58:05 <Rolf1> ~/bin/gnucash
08:58:15 <andi5> great, rm -rf ~/bin/gnucash :)
08:58:21 <Rolf1> compiling from ~/tmp/gnucash
08:59:05 <andi5> is ~/bin/gnucash an executable, a symbolic link or a directory?
08:59:12 <warlord> Rolf1: what's your full ./configure invocation?
08:59:30 <Rolf1> ./autogen.sh && make clean ; ./configure --prefix=/home/rolf/bin/gnucash --enable-debug --enable-doxygen --enable-locale-specific-tax --enable-error-on-warning --enable-compile-warnings && make && rm -Rf /home/rolf/bin/gnucash/ && make install
08:59:42 <Rolf1> make fails AFAICT
08:59:58 <Rolf1> make install is never reached
09:00:00 <andi5> ./autogen.sh && make clean ; ./configure --prefix=/home/rolf/bin/gnucash --enable-debug --enable-doxygen --enable-locale-specific-tax --enable-error-on-warning --enable-compile-warnings && rm -Rf /home/rolf/bin/gnucash/ && make && make install
09:00:07 <Rolf1> I posted the error yesterday
09:00:30 <Rolf1> andi5: what's changed?
09:00:37 <andi5> ...
09:00:42 <Rolf1> Oh, got it
09:01:00 <warlord> Rolf1: rm -rf /home/rolf/bin/gnucash BEFORE 'make'
09:01:41 <Rolf1> would that affect "make"?
09:01:52 <Rolf1> I wouldn't have thought so
09:02:18 <andi5> that is where you erred :)
09:03:18 <warlord> Rolf1: yes, that could affect make. libtool ofttimes links against libraries in --prefix so it could have issues sometimes.
09:03:37 <warlord> (and note, the "error[2]" isn't the error... there's usually something above it first)
09:41:46 <Rolf1> http://tinyurl.com/62mjkd 32 bugs fixed in the last week. Nice!
09:41:59 <Rolf1> and we can add one more: the reports don't crash anymore
09:42:10 <Rolf1> so maybe that is even two fixed bugs
09:42:13 <Rolf1> Thanks!
09:42:32 <warlord> :)
09:52:25 <warlord> Gotta run for a bit. I'll be back in about 1h30
09:54:01 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
09:54:11 <Rolf1> problem is, we've got 33 new bugs, so we have not made much progress
10:05:41 <andi5> business as usual
10:28:49 <Rolf1> I hope that maybe I can help out a bit with that
10:28:57 <Rolf1> which is why I tackled the patches first
10:29:15 <Rolf1> I am marking bugs I consider good as reviewed now
10:29:31 <Rolf1> I think the "please apply" tag would have been appropriate, too
10:29:59 <Rolf1> I mean, there are devs with commit privs and there are people like me with some kind of privs in bugzilla
10:30:18 <Rolf1> I need a way to signal "Hey, I think this is a good patch"
10:30:37 <Rolf1> There are patches in the tracker several years old that address very valid issues
10:40:04 <Rolf1> of course my "I think this is a good patch" means very little in terms of real code review, but it's still some kind of triage and should substantially reduce the amount of stuff the real devs need to look at
10:42:15 <Rolf1> andi5: what is the reason you have not applied your patch from bug 115066?
10:43:36 <andi5> i think there was some major issue with that patch... but i do not remember right now
10:43:49 <andi5> fortunately i did not tell anyone ;-)
10:53:51 <Rolf1> unfortunately
10:54:01 <Rolf1> cause now we're sitting here guessing
10:54:47 <Rolf1> did you any additional problems on top of the patch you based your work on?
10:54:53 <Rolf1> did you add
10:56:31 <Rolf1> more bugs closed than new!
11:23:46 <Rolf1> andi5: the reviewed patches are actually receiving less exposure since they are not shown on http://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=GnuCash
11:24:04 <Rolf1> do you really object to using accept_commit_now?
11:24:38 <andi5> YES
11:24:38 <Rolf1> I guess it is safe to assume that the person doing a commit does not do so without some kind of due diligence
11:24:57 <Rolf1> no need to shout
11:25:04 <Rolf1> I was merely asking
11:25:09 <andi5> no need to repeat everything over and over
11:25:21 <Rolf1> gimme a break
11:25:31 <Rolf1> I did not even repeat this once!
11:25:41 <Rolf1> now chill, OK
11:26:25 <andi5> no, but i would have to
11:27:23 <Rolf1> OK
11:27:30 <Rolf1> so no repitition so far
11:27:43 <Rolf1> still "over and over"
11:27:49 <Rolf1> Is that necessary?
11:28:24 *** andi5 is now known as andi5|work
11:28:33 <Rolf1> especially when this is to help you guys and after you've already been helped quite a bit
11:30:35 * Rolf1 thinks it is always sad to see projects where technical competence and social aptitude are inversely correlated
11:31:29 <andi5|work> Rolf1: please, go and fork gnucash, but i am not willing to read this sort of personal attacks anymore
11:31:52 <Rolf1> do you feel addressed?
11:31:56 <andi5|work> i guess you are really trying to help the project...
11:31:59 <andi5|work> sure
11:31:59 <Rolf1> anymore?
11:32:19 <Rolf1> So we are still at "over and over"? Please cite my previous personal attack
11:33:04 <Rolf1> I am not going to fork anything because somebody makes repeated false accusations.
11:33:13 <Rolf1> I can stand that
11:33:42 <andi5|work> sorry, i cannot stand this, and am plainly unwilling to discuss it... call me whatever you like, i will ignore it
11:33:43 <andi5|work> ciao
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11:34:07 <jsled> the hell?
11:34:31 * jsled is confused.
11:39:27 * Rolf1 too
11:39:49 <Rolf1> up to a point
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12:05:13 <warlord> Rolf1: you do seem to say things that come across as personal affronts. You've done it to me. You've done it to andi.
12:05:57 <jsled> FWIW, I can't find it above.
12:06:21 <Rolf1> warlord: do you consider it a personal affront to be accused of untrue things?
12:06:23 <warlord> You might not MEAN for it to be taken personally, but the way you come across very much seems like you're attacking personally instead of pointing out flaws/issues in the technology.
12:06:36 <warlord> Rolf1: depends on how you say it.
12:06:37 <Rolf1> I think you got it backwards if anything
12:06:40 <jsled> Well, there's the "social aptitde" bit, but I think andi5 was already torqued off by that point, but I don't know why.
12:07:04 <Rolf1> warlord: andi said the same
12:07:08 <Rolf1> examples?
12:07:18 <Rolf1> he did not give any
12:07:28 <Rolf1> I am willing to learn if I made mistakes
12:07:29 <warlord> jsled: well, for one thing, Rolf1 and andi had already had a conversation about the apply_tag.
12:07:39 <Rolf1> no
12:07:41 <warlord> er, accept_commit_now
12:07:45 <Rolf1> I would not call that a conversation
12:08:09 <warlord> fair enough.
12:08:16 <Rolf1> and andi conceded to incorrectly claiming we did (that is at least my understanding)
12:08:22 <warlord> his "please don't do that" could have been a little kinder.
12:08:42 <Rolf1> I don't really have tomuch of an issue with that
12:08:53 <Rolf1> but the conversation was being raised here by me
12:08:59 <Rolf1> only answer
12:09:01 <Rolf1> YES
12:09:08 <warlord> But your comment about "social aptitude" certainly was a personal affront, and I can understand why andi got very upset by that. You're insulting him directly.
12:09:09 <Rolf1> and that I considered rude
12:09:27 <Rolf1> warlord: Understood
12:09:37 <Rolf1> But I have made contributions here
12:09:47 <Rolf1> So please forgive me that I point out problems, too
12:09:54 <Rolf1> And I think the climate here has problems
12:09:55 <warlord> well, maybe his caps key was locked? That happens to me often. If he had said "Yes" or "yes" would it still have come off as rude to you?
12:10:06 <Rolf1> I have said it yesterday, I'll say it again
12:10:34 <warlord> And you've said it the day before, and the day before that, too.
12:10:43 <Rolf1> warlord: after a lengthy explanation where I think the problem was it was clearly no need to shout
12:10:47 <Rolf1> and he intended to shout
12:10:55 <warlord> Are you sure he intended to shout?
12:11:06 <Rolf1> yes
12:11:24 <Rolf1> "get off my back"
12:11:34 <Rolf1> it may be unpleasant
12:11:41 <Rolf1> but I will stay on your back
12:11:44 <Rolf1> yours and andis
12:11:50 <Rolf1> for the better of the project
12:12:14 <Rolf1> I am not making up this stuff about the climate, I have watched things for a long time
12:12:19 <Rolf1> here and in other projects
12:12:36 <jsled> Rolf1: but, just being a monkey on someone's back isn't helping.
12:12:59 <Rolf1> jsled: I guess we agree I am not just a monkey, aren't we?
12:13:02 <jsled> I mean, triaging bugs and stuff is great. And, by the way, thanks for all the effort you've put into it.
12:13:11 <Rolf1> I *am* making positive and constructive comments
12:13:30 <Rolf1> coming back to climate
12:13:39 <jsled> Rolf1: you are, give me a little leeway. I don't dislike you or think you should stop or anything.
12:13:41 <warlord> Rolf1: I agree. I think >90% of your comments are quite constructive.
12:13:55 <Rolf1> I have now heard from numerous people who were annoyed about being yelled at or not taken seriously with their concerns
12:14:05 <Rolf1> You will usually not hear from them or only once
12:14:24 <Rolf1> For you it will prove again that what they said was worthless because they don't stick around
12:14:26 <jsled> But, just poking people to do stuff doesn't really help. (note that I don't think you do that only)
12:14:35 <Rolf1> whereas your creating a self-fulfilling prophecy
12:14:40 * Rolf1 reads backlog
12:15:04 <jsled> The biggest problem with Gnucash right now is that no one has the time to spend on it, and it's a gigantic tangle of shit.
12:15:23 <Rolf1> and people generally understand that, I think
12:15:38 <Rolf1> I dropped the ball, too, btw and only came back recently
12:17:26 <warlord> I admit I have a big problem dealing with people who come here with an entitlement complex, who feel like they deserve that I drop everything I'm doing and spend a good deal of time hand-holding them through (what I consider to be) extremely basic stuff.
12:17:26 <Rolf1> so, from personal experience, while the mountain still there to get gnucash going for what I needed it for (technical side) I also considered gnucash's community unable to grow beyond current contributors and thus the problem of too little man power -> too many serious problems untackled to be unsolvable
12:17:41 <jsled> yup.
12:17:48 <Rolf1> I am glad that bug 129099 and the other one I forgot about proved me wrong
12:17:58 <Rolf1> otherwise I would have stayed away
12:18:43 <Rolf1> warlord: When I talk to the people I mentioned above, I usually take your stance and explain that the entitlement and FOSS don't mix
12:19:00 <Rolf1> But I think people are entitled to being treated with respect
12:19:14 <Rolf1> and it is of self-interest for a project to have good processes
12:19:47 <Rolf1> while not a catastrophe, gnucash can improve in some areas. I'm doing it for other projects, I want to do it here.
12:20:11 <Rolf1> I think I deserve some respect when discussing process improvements
12:21:03 <Rolf1> That did not happen above and andi who makes great contributions snapped and accused me repeatedly of stuff he later had to admit I never did
12:21:19 <Rolf1> That is my perspective on what happened
12:21:45 <warlord> Rolf1: I DO try to start out with that. It's usually only after about 5-6 round trips that I can start to get annoyed.
12:22:08 <Rolf1> While I agree the "social aptitude" thing is at least borderline I can still stand by it (I explicitly did not name names ;-)), I felt it fair to express my frustration at that point
12:22:31 <warlord> IM/IRC/Email communication is REALLY hard. There's so much about communication that's non-textual (or even non-verbal, but we lose even verbal tonality here)
12:23:02 <warlord> That comment was still pretty rude and clearly targeting individuals instead of targetting the process or the technology.
12:23:15 <Rolf1> both
12:23:40 <Rolf1> As you see, I am worried about gnucash culture
12:25:41 <jsled> I don't think that there's a big social aptitude problem, though.
12:25:55 <Rolf1> generally, I think you are nice guys
12:26:00 <jsled> I think the culture is one of frustration due to lack of momentum.
12:26:11 <jsled> Patches sit unapplied because it's too much work to apply, test and commit them.
12:26:16 <Rolf1> And I'd ack that generally there is no social aptitude problem
12:26:31 <Rolf1> Nerdy cultures tend to bring that out, though
12:26:32 <jsled> That leads to frustration in communication when people do raise ideas or want to make changes.
12:26:38 <Rolf1> and gnucash is a nerdy culture
12:26:41 <jsled> Bourne out a sense of despair.
12:26:46 <jsled> (or maybe that's just me. :)
12:27:11 <Rolf1> jsled: agreed
12:27:24 <Rolf1> which is why I tackled the patch queue during the last couple of days
12:27:27 <jsled> But, when people do come in here and are curious and asking questions about what source file to look in to start to change something, I think we're more than helpful.
12:27:32 <Rolf1> I was quite amazed what to find in there
12:27:38 <jsled> s/come in here/come in here or on the mailing list/
12:27:45 <Rolf1> jsled: full ack
12:27:50 <Rolf1> support for coders is great
12:28:20 <Rolf1> mere users can have it tough, I think, although both sides usually have good intentions
12:28:32 <Rolf1> users often have spent hours trying to get stuff to work
12:28:46 <Rolf1> stuff they think should obviously be working
12:28:50 <jsled> oh, yeah.
12:28:52 <jsled> And they're often right.
12:29:00 <jsled> Because we do things really fucked up, sometimes.
12:29:14 <Rolf1> I feel gnucash is on a good path
12:29:18 <Rolf1> I intend to do my share
12:29:36 <Rolf1> I am happy that I will probably actually be able to do my books with gnucash pretty soon
12:31:03 <Rolf1> shall we have a colllective hug?
12:31:12 <jsled> hee hee
12:31:13 <Rolf1> <3
12:31:21 <Rolf1> You guys know that smiley?
12:31:32 <jsled> ☺ ♡ ♥ ☺
12:31:34 * Rolf1 learned it yesterday
12:31:38 <Rolf1> Aha
12:31:45 <Rolf1> Love you guys!
12:32:02 * Rolf1 admires jsled's keyboard setting
12:32:03 * jsled has "Compose < 3 w" and "Compose < 3 b" mapped locally.
12:32:19 <Rolf1> good work
12:32:30 <warlord> Rolf1: Come on down to Frankfurt sometime between July 20-26 and we can share a Bier. ;)
12:32:31 <jsled> http://paste.lisp.org/display/63546
12:32:47 <Rolf1> warlord: I'll see what I can do
12:33:25 <Rolf1> face-to-face meetings go a long way towards lessening the impact of the IM/IRC communication obstacles you mentioned
12:33:35 <warlord> Rolf1: indeed they do.
12:34:26 <Rolf1> jsled: That is actually pretty nice
12:34:32 <Rolf1> What file does that go into?
12:34:38 <jsled> ~/.XCompose
12:34:54 <jsled> Make sure GTK_IM_MODULE=xim
12:35:10 <Rolf1> Oh, I am not sure I can do that
12:35:12 <jsled> (good job, GTK guys, starting to re-create xim. Thanks for making linux suck more.)
12:35:20 <Rolf1> I think I have that set to uim now
12:35:35 <Rolf1> I might switch to scim
12:35:39 <Rolf1> I need Japanese input
12:35:39 <jsled> ((of course, they'll probably do it better, but still.))\
12:36:07 <warlord> jsled: gnome guys seem to take two steps forward and then five steps back. :(
12:38:08 <warlord> Rolf1: FYI, looks like the bzr pull is still going but they've reduced the amount of b/w used to a reasonable level (about 300kbps)
12:46:06 <Rolf1> I'd think that is coincidental, although I've commented in https://bugs.launchpad.net/244575 that they need to be more considerate if they don't want to become blocked left and right
12:46:29 <Rolf1> Sometimes reactions are pretty swift from the LP guys
12:50:57 <warlord> Good to know.
13:00:32 <Rolf1> sorry, wrong URL earlier
13:00:34 <Rolf1> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/244575
13:01:05 <Rolf1> or https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/244575 but I abbreviated incorrectly
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13:46:02 <Rolf1> warlord: I guess the mail you sent me yesterday was meant to go to the list as well?
13:46:38 <warlord> Rolf1: did I reply only to you? (I must've been tired)
13:46:44 <warlord> Yes, please.
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13:47:01 <Rolf1> OK
13:47:23 <Rolf1> I'll let you answer there and decide if I should reply
13:48:08 <Rolf1> differences in accounting or not, one often does not make the laws one has to abide
13:48:27 <Rolf1> and accounting is heavily regulated in .de and thus standards have formed
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13:56:06 <warlord> Yeah, I know each country has their own laws and regulations. I just still maintain some of them are just STOOOOPID.
13:56:33 <warlord> E.g. "Tax Invoice". WTF is up with that? Why does an invoice have to have the phrase "Tax Invoice" on it? "Invoice" just isn't good enough.
13:56:35 <warlord> Makes no sense.
13:57:29 <warlord> I think my biggest beef about SKR is that the accounts seem to look like: A : A B : A B C : A B C D : A B C D E ...
13:57:53 <warlord> but it's in german, so my brain might not be parsing it properly.
14:13:53 <Rolf1> beef or not, the question is "do the users have a choice?"
14:14:03 <Rolf1> your government may be stupid
14:14:05 <Rolf1> our government may be stupid
14:14:16 <Rolf1> We still have to abide by what they tell us
14:14:25 <Rolf1> or usually face stiff consequences
14:14:47 <Rolf1> not a question of "I think this is stupid"
14:14:49 <warlord> I dont know about you, but my gov't never sees my books, just the tax returns.
14:14:51 <Rolf1> unfortunately
14:15:07 <Rolf1> They can take a look in the books
14:15:13 <Rolf1> But that is not really the point
14:15:31 <Rolf1> people have standardized
14:15:40 <Rolf1> There is good reason also to follow the crowd
14:16:00 <Rolf1> because a) your tax assistandt (Steuerberater) knows his way around
14:16:14 <Rolf1> b) you can google stuff for common problems, etc.
14:16:24 <Rolf1> if you want to fight the system, go ahead
14:16:40 <Rolf1> we should not put that burden on people trying to just use software to help them
14:16:51 <Rolf1> the standard COA are basically what they are
14:17:09 <Rolf1> (not that I can vouch for them being correctly represented in gnucash, yet)
14:17:25 <warlord> Well, gnucash itself is completely agnostic about the account hierarchy.
14:17:31 <warlord> and that is as it should be.
14:17:34 <warlord> gnucash shouldn't care.
14:17:56 <warlord> users can organize their accounts anyway they want to suit their needs.
14:18:13 <jsled> Well, it's not completey agnostic … we can't support the "Passive" hierarchy.
14:18:18 <jsled> s/we/it/
14:18:19 <Rolf1> why are we even arguing about this particular point?
14:18:34 <Rolf1> I mean
14:18:43 <Rolf1> we can argue about the requested feature
14:18:47 <Rolf1> I see room for that
14:19:13 <Rolf1> but telling people that the way things are done in their country is stupid might be true but itself is stupid
14:19:21 <Rolf1> Things are the way they are
14:19:33 <Rolf1> Unless I became a politician and changed it all
14:19:36 <Rolf1> I don't intend to
14:19:45 <Rolf1> And I also see the value of it
14:19:50 <warlord> Well, hey, if one country falls into the 20% of things gnucash doesn't do well ..... *shrugs* I just dont think GnuCash needs to support 100% of the people out there.
14:20:05 <Rolf1> German accounting is pedantic, but more clear than your books, I think
14:20:56 <Rolf1> and there we have the mantra of "f*ck the users" again
14:21:05 <Rolf1> as long as I'm happy
14:21:12 <Rolf1> warlord: you do this all the time
14:21:44 <warlord> You're right, because I'm not going to f*ck myself because a small subset of the population can't do something, either, when what we've got works perfectly well for 80-90% of the population.
14:21:47 <Rolf1> it's really tiring even for a stubborn mule like me
14:21:53 <warlord> Gnucash does NOT need to be all things to all people.
14:22:49 <warlord> so yes, I do do it all the time, because of the 80/20 problem.
14:23:14 <warlord> (I do it even more so when people expect me to do the work. I do it less so when I expect them to submit a patch)
14:23:20 <Rolf1> we are not discussing if this needs to be implemented or not. We are discussing being able to consider another person's position. And thus we are coming back to "social aptitude". I don't mean to sound derogoratory. But please consider the fact that the world is not the same everywhere.
14:23:31 <Rolf1> this is not 80/20 problem
14:24:06 <warlord> It most certainly is the 80/20 problem. You just happen to be in that 20 so you're feeling slighted.
14:24:08 <Rolf1> I don't buy the patch thing anymore so well after seeing so many rot in the bugtracker
14:25:20 * Rolf1 feels the American in warlord
14:25:24 <warlord> I think there are only 15-30 patches in the bug tracker... for like 600+ bugs. Many of them have had comments like "almost there, just make this change" and no update comes. Some of them are just bandaids instead of fixing the underlying problem. And some require some more architectural discussion.
14:25:37 <Rolf1> I respect the US, I've lived and studied there a long time
14:25:44 <jsled> And some are for things like QSF that shouldn't exist.
14:26:01 <jsled> Things that are net negative to productivity in further maintaining gnucash.
14:27:25 <warlord> Rolf1: does anyone OUTSIDE germany need this functionality? Is anyone outside of germany asking for it?
14:27:27 <Rolf1> warlord: I already said that I would be happy if the requested feature is not implemented, but *pleaseeeee* hear me out when I say that the gnucash community comes across as intolerant
14:27:47 <Rolf1> I am not even saying it is intolerant
14:27:57 <Rolf1> But it very much comes across as such
14:28:12 <Rolf1> and that is a much bigger problem than whether or not we implement that feature
14:28:20 <warlord> I'm extremely tolerant of generally useful features.
14:28:35 <warlord> I certainly say "great idea" more often than "I'm not sure about that"
14:28:39 <Rolf1> let me speak frankly
14:28:48 <warlord> as if you haven't been already?
14:29:06 <Rolf1> I think you kind of lack the skill to put yourself in another person's shoes and thus you cannot really make that judgment of useful
14:29:14 <Rolf1> I hope you are not offended now
14:29:22 <Rolf1> today is tough talk ;-)
14:30:24 <Rolf1> want an example?
14:30:30 <warlord> Well, you dont know me very well.
14:30:32 <Rolf1> Jannick said I have problem A
14:30:39 <Rolf1> Let's fix it with B
14:30:59 <Rolf1> You said "Objection, B will create problems"
14:31:02 <Rolf1> and that was it
14:31:16 <Rolf1> and you'd have gone on with your business
14:31:36 <Rolf1> maybe I don't know you very well
14:31:46 <Rolf1> This is a virtual product
14:31:52 <Rolf1> I am telling you how you come across
14:31:58 <jsled> Rolf1: what should have happened instead?
14:32:01 <warlord> So now it's my job to brainstorm up ideas to fix other people's problems every time I found an issue with a proposed solution?
14:32:08 <Rolf1> to quite a number of people, including myself
14:32:13 <Rolf1> jsled: just a minute
14:32:19 <warlord> I never said your problem shouldn't be fixed.
14:32:28 <Rolf1> jsled: it is revealing you are not missing anything
14:32:31 <warlord> I just said that THAT fix introduced issues.
14:32:39 <Rolf1> welllllllllll
14:33:06 <warlord> ... and that we already had a related fix in place (namely, time-based limits)
14:33:24 <Rolf1> time-based limits?
14:33:25 <jsled> ("not missing anything"?)
14:33:30 <jsled> ??? :)
14:33:37 <jsled> Lots of questions.
14:33:54 <warlord> BIAB...
14:35:51 <Rolf1> The person raising his problem should indeed have been taken seriously. and people should have tried to first understand each other's issues (deriding the problems as stupid does not help, certainly not when the people don't even have a choice), then it might have been possible to find a good, positive compromise
14:36:30 <Rolf1> the 80/20 as you see it might also come from the fact that you successfully crowd out the 20 percent and keep them from growing in numbers
14:36:34 <Rolf1> Ever thought about that?
14:36:58 <Rolf1> It's a big pool of potential contributors, FOSS is thriving here
14:37:41 <Rolf1> again, I am not saying you guys should suffer because of the German peculiarities in accounting
14:37:56 <jsled> as andi5 and cstim can attest to. And yet no one's produced a patch to fix the problem.
14:38:05 <Rolf1> I am suggesting that the attitude shown could be different
14:38:19 <Rolf1> jsled: which problem?
14:38:21 * jsled doesn't even know what "the problem" is specifically here. :)
14:38:40 <jsled> But I guess it would be "allowing gnucash to accomodate German peculiarities".
14:38:43 * Rolf1 does neither
14:38:59 <Rolf1> no, we are at a kind of meta-discussion
14:39:09 <jsled> (sorry, what might I (not) be missing? I still don't understand)
14:39:20 <jsled> (... as per your comment above)
14:40:05 <jsled> Right, I understand the meta-discussion, but I think this concrete example is related to the meta.
14:40:17 <Rolf1> of course
14:40:36 <Rolf1> this is not just an exercise in discussion skillz ;-)
14:40:44 <Rolf1> but
14:40:44 <jsled> hee.
14:41:22 <Rolf1> a) I have more than once now said that I would not object to taking the choice that warlord wants
14:41:47 <Rolf1> b) I am worried a bit about the lack of $whatshallIcallit
14:41:53 <Rolf1> which is
14:42:17 <Rolf1> the lack of willingness to try and find the best solution *for everyone involved*
14:42:28 <Rolf1> I guess that is a big part of it
14:42:51 <Rolf1> which IMHO leads to the second problem of newbies being put off easily
14:43:16 <Rolf1> that being said I don't mean to suggest that the gncuash community is a big turnoff
14:43:35 <Rolf1> but there is certainly a big opportunity to do better IMHO
14:43:44 <Rolf1> does that make sense at all?
14:43:52 <jsled> Yes.
14:43:58 <jsled> Look at this way; anyone who's reading the -devel list has 3 options when they see a situation like the one you suggested:
14:44:07 <jsled> 1/ Object because the Thing causes a problem.
14:44:19 <jsled> 2/ Object and Fix the problem-causing Thing.
14:44:21 <jsled> 3/ Do nothing.
14:44:36 <jsled> (2) can imply a lot more work than (1).
14:44:41 <Rolf1> Isn't that going too fast?
14:44:46 <jsled> but (1) is way more useful than (3).
14:44:50 <Rolf1> Of course, that is the evntual outcome
14:44:54 <Rolf1> 1-3
14:45:00 <Rolf1> And I am fine with that
14:45:13 <Rolf1> But people sense what is going on before the outcome is reached
14:45:21 <Rolf1> and that is the issue
14:45:37 <Rolf1> I think people sense that they and their problems are not being taken seriously
14:45:53 <Rolf1> certainly not if they can't supply patches
14:46:03 <Rolf1> And even then
14:46:33 <Rolf1> That is kind of the meta in the meta-discussion I talked about above
14:46:42 <jsled> Right. But I don't think that's a function of personality, but of project malaise.
14:46:48 <warlord> On -devel if they cant supply patches then yes, they WILL be ignored.
14:47:00 <warlord> -devel is specifically for DEVELOPMENT.
14:47:03 <Rolf1> The discussion has some merit, but IMO is not even so important, especially with bug 129099 helping out a lot here
14:47:21 <Rolf1> the meta-discussion is something I'd like ppl to consider
14:47:55 <Rolf1> warlord: You seem like an unemotional guy
14:47:57 <jsled> Rolf1: sitting around discussing how to write code without actually doing so is generally a waste of time.
14:48:06 <Rolf1> In this situation that might be the exact problem
14:48:25 <Rolf1> jsled: yes, but more no than yes
14:48:28 <Rolf1> Think about me
14:48:33 <warlord> Rolf1: no, i'm very emotional. I take great pride in the work I've accomplished.
14:48:47 <Rolf1> I will only supply very little in terms of code
14:49:00 <Rolf1> I still think I have something to bring to the table
14:49:02 <warlord> Rolf1: and that's the "entitlement complex" i was talking about. "what about me?" Well, this is FOSS -- send me a patch and I'll evaluate it on its technical merits.
14:49:21 <warlord> Rolf1: I agree, I think you DO have something to bring to the table.
14:49:26 <Rolf1> warlord: you are missing a big part of FOSS, IMHO
14:49:32 <Rolf1> FOSS for me is not about code
14:49:49 <Rolf1> only about code
14:49:53 <warlord> No, I'm not missing it. I just have to budget my time.
14:50:12 <warlord> As it is I already spend WAY too much of my time on GnuCash.
14:50:17 <Rolf1> OK, I give up for today
14:50:22 <Rolf1> I also have to budget my time
14:50:27 <warlord> Honestly it would be better for me if I just completely unsubscribed from all the gnucash lists and never showed up in here.
14:50:39 <Rolf1> I think I raised the points I wanted to raise
14:50:42 <warlord> (it would also be better for me emotionally)
14:50:56 * Rolf1 understands that feeling very well
14:50:58 <Rolf1> ;-)
14:51:00 <warlord> In fact, Rolf1, thanks to YOU I tihnk I might just do that.
14:51:17 <warlord> Maybe a 1-2 year hiatus would do me some good.
14:51:35 <jsled> warlord: aw, don't go there. Either do it or not (and I hope you don't), but it's due to you, not him.
14:51:53 <warlord> No, it's due to him.
14:51:56 <warlord> And others like him
14:52:17 <warlord> Perhaps he's just the catalyst.
14:52:30 <warlord> But days like this really pull all the joy out of working on GnuCash.
14:52:34 <jsled> I think that's more what I meant. /me splits hairs about ownership of decisions.
14:52:53 <jsled> There's joy in this? ;)
14:52:58 <warlord> LOL
14:53:01 * jsled gotta find me some of that.
14:53:27 <warlord> Where's all that beer people promised us? ;)
14:53:34 <jsled> heh heh
14:53:47 <warlord> all I seem to get are complaints.
14:53:55 <jsled> are you still brewing, btw?
14:54:52 <warlord> I did a maple pale ale about 6 weeks ago.
14:54:53 * Rolf1 cannot even count the number of thank-you's etc
14:55:08 <Rolf1> I think I was being constructive
14:55:14 <Rolf1> I certainly tried very hard
14:55:26 <jsled> Oh, nice. How much maple?
14:55:42 <warlord> 3#
14:55:42 <jsled> I've had hits and misses with my maple porters in the past.
14:55:53 <warlord> It's quite tasty
14:56:05 <jsled> warlord: I don't know if/how you journal, but maybe http://brew-journal.com/ is interesting.
14:56:15 <warlord> I use written notes.
14:56:26 <jsled> It's less recipe-formulation than {,post-} brew journaling
14:56:40 <jsled> But I'll eventually build up the recipe-handling side, too.
14:56:52 <warlord> Wow, it's like all by you! ;)
14:57:07 <jsled> Yeah, well. No users, yet. :)
14:57:34 <warlord> That would do it.
14:59:45 <warlord> once I get back in August (and actually have a kitchen again) I plan to do a few more batches.
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16:10:51 *** gncbot sets mode: +o andi5
16:11:41 <jsled> hey andi5
16:11:49 <andi5> hi jsled
16:15:14 <warlord> hey andi5!
16:15:15 <warlord> Welcome back
16:15:36 <andi5> i am a boomerang ;-)
16:15:47 * warlord watches his head
16:15:48 <andi5> actually, not really
16:16:00 <warlord> You're not that wooden.
16:16:01 <warlord> ;-)
16:16:01 <andi5> or one with a great delay :)
16:16:05 <andi5> that is true
16:16:40 <warlord> If you can make it up to Frankfurt I'll buy you noch ein bier, okay? ;)
16:17:04 <warlord> (and yes, I know that doesn't make sense, but it makes sense to me)
16:18:10 <andi5> hm... 20-26th?
16:18:59 <warlord> * nods *
16:19:17 <warlord> I land around 1430 on 20/7
16:19:19 <andi5> no, it does not make much of a sense, unless you buyed malt beer :)
16:19:31 <andi5> local time, i suppose
16:19:36 <warlord> yes.
16:20:05 <warlord> then I depart at 1555 on 26/7
16:20:18 <warlord> (well, flight departs 1555, so I have to be at FRA earlier)
16:21:07 <andi5> honestly, i will not be able to come to frankfurt, because i need to be here at both, the 20th and 26th (in the morning) :(
16:21:22 <warlord> ( see, Rolf1, I can be QUITE accomodating to others' views. I'm even using local time/date parlance ;-)
16:21:29 <andi5> lol
16:21:37 <andi5> because you need not calculate it back, then ;-)
16:22:08 <warlord> well, I could've said 2:30 on 7/20
16:22:28 <andi5> you could have said 8:54 and had believed you :)
16:22:28 <warlord> :( Too bad. Hopefully next time I can come down to Munich.
16:22:40 <andi5> have you been here before?
16:22:49 <warlord> Munich? no.
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16:24:05 <andi5> i would it say it is worth a trip, even though i have not seen alot yet
16:24:44 <warlord> Oh, I know it is. It's on my list. but my time in Europe got cut by a week, so I cut out my time in/around Germany in order to get some time in Ireland. I know I'll get back to Germany.
16:24:57 <andi5> warlord: do you know whisperings?
16:25:46 <warlord> the music style?
16:25:53 <andi5> the web radio
16:26:32 <warlord> Never listened to it.
16:26:33 <warlord> Why?
16:27:02 <andi5> very soothing piano music... i wondered whether you would like it :-)
16:28:47 <warlord> I dunno.. Maybe?
16:30:25 <andi5> well, give it a try... if you do not like it, you do not know it from me ;-)
16:30:43 <warlord> Hahahahah
16:31:01 <andi5> this irc chat will destro...
16:31:15 <warlord> This message will self destruct in 5 seconds...
16:31:29 <andi5> it is still there!
16:31:35 <andi5> i have a copy :)
16:33:03 <andi5> hm... somehow i am having trouble to distinguish between 2.2 bugfixes and trunk-only changes... i guess i really miss a release schedule for 2.4.x :(
16:33:26 <warlord> well, we can come up with one.
16:33:30 <andi5> can we?
16:33:36 <warlord> what major changes do we see coming down the pipe?
16:33:41 <andi5> last time i asked nobody responded :(
16:33:41 <warlord> Phil's SQL work?
16:33:43 <andi5> yep
16:33:55 <andi5> that is the one thing i see... maybe the python bindings as well?
16:34:30 <warlord> true.
16:34:42 <andi5> i am not sure whether german accounting changes can be tackled by a set of bug fixes or whether they need larger reconstructions
16:34:59 <andi5> i see that charles is hacking like hell again, and he is not doing trivial stuff at all :)
16:35:49 <andi5> personally, i cannot estimate the stability of the branch at the current stage ... i highly appreciate charles' work, i was simply to inactive and there are quite some changes
16:37:52 <warlord> Well, perhaps we should really start limiting what gets back into 2.2 and just think that we'll start a 2.4 release cycle in about 3-4 months?
16:38:05 <warlord> we should work at this point to keep 2.2 stable.
16:39:09 <andi5> maybe... again, i would like to hear phil's opinion about that
16:39:26 <andi5> it would prefer a long 2.3.x series to 2.4.x without his work
16:40:31 <andi5> if the database backend is not that brilliant as we may have dreamt, then we can still stick to the xml one as default, i think
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16:48:13 <andi5> wrt file endings... somehow i expected .gnc and .xac to be typical gnucash file extensions... is there some semi-authoritative list somewhere?
16:53:05 <jsled> yeah.
16:53:17 <jsled> .gnc, .xac and .gnucash, as per the f.d.o mime types db.
16:53:27 * jsled finds a more concrete reference.
16:53:30 <andi5> ah, right... that is where i saw them...
16:53:38 <andi5> are we still a gnumeric sheet? :)
16:54:01 <jsled> probably. :)
16:54:33 <jsled> s/f.d.o/fd.o/, I guess. I don't know what the accepted abbrev really is. :/
16:55:11 <andi5> www.freedesktop.or. ?
16:55:14 <jsled> http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/shared-mime-info ...
16:55:41 <jsled> Oh, I see gentoo has a 0.40 version of the package in unstable.
16:55:55 <jsled> I doubt it fixes the "spreadsheet" comment, though.
16:56:15 <andi5> <mime-type type="application/x-gnucash">
16:56:15 <andi5> <comment>GnuCash spreadsheet</comment>
16:56:40 <andi5> and it is nice translated into all sorts of languages :)
16:56:45 <andi5> nicely
16:57:23 <jsled> indeed.
16:57:37 <jsled> Whatever. We probably should be more spreadsheet like.
16:58:49 <jsled> c.f. http://www.lispnyc.org/wiki.clp?page=PyCells
17:00:29 <andi5> ok
17:03:05 <andi5> would it attract developers if there was an office git-svn repo that can be cloned, so that people can try out things and propose updates via "look ma, here is my git tree"? ... would that do anything good?
17:03:17 <andi5> official, i mean... damnit, i am tired
17:03:49 <jsled> I don't think so, but it couldn't hurt.
17:04:15 <andi5> well, if it did not, then i do not see why we should put us under that administrative burden...
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17:04:34 <jsled> Could put it on github or something.
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17:06:23 <andi5> do 100 mb disk space suffice for a reasonable repo? ... maybe some wants to sponsor for it?
17:06:44 <jsled> The svn repo 240 mb right now.
17:06:51 <andi5> that is svn
17:06:51 <jsled> (well, as of yesterday, compressed)
17:07:15 <andi5> but interesting nonetheless
17:07:17 <jsled> Of course, one wouldn't need all history for this.
17:07:33 <andi5> that is what i think as well... and branches are rather cheap
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17:09:03 <andi5> i just ran git gc on mine: 22642 objects, 36 mb
17:09:21 <andi5> starting from r14200, tracking the major branches
17:10:36 <andi5> i am not sure whether introducing bzr now is "optimal", given that those of using a dvcs seem to favor git... well
17:12:19 <jsled> git is way better than bzr, except for that whole working on windows thing.
17:13:21 <andi5> apropos windows... i would like to propose charles as bugzilla maintainer for the windows component... less work for me, but i boot into that system very seldomly anyway... i do not think he can do much more harm than i did :)
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17:17:34 <warlord> andi5: I agree, a longer 2.3 with SQL would be better than a quicker 2.4 without it, and even if the SQL backend isn't completely tested we don't have to swap over to it as default right away.
17:24:13 <andi5> jsled: if qsf is that buggy... why do not we remove it?
17:24:19 <jsled> exactly.
17:24:24 <andi5> or at least do not ship it?
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17:25:05 <warlord> it keeps getting turned back on in trunk (hoping someone will fix it) and then we forget to turn it back off.
17:25:15 <andi5> hehe
17:25:20 <warlord> Perhaps we need to use better #ifdefs .
17:25:26 <andi5> #if 0
17:25:29 <warlord> LOL
17:25:50 <andi5> #! 42
17:26:11 <andi5> i am not sure whether relative paths are allowed as shebangs though
17:26:38 <warlord> I dont think so.
17:29:04 <andi5> Q: when you create a file from an account template, what happens to the guids? are they ignored and picked randomly for the actual file?
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17:31:10 <grantbow> Q: Is there a way to force a currently scheduled transaction into the register for a date in the near (up to 30days) in the future?
17:31:34 <jsled> only by making it remind or create in advance.
17:31:51 <warlord> andi5: I BELIEVE they are randomly generated.
17:32:13 <andi5> that is what i thought as well... i guess i will try it out someday
17:32:22 <grantbow> jsled - aha, I remember seeing that setting, thanks.
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17:39:46 <Rolf1> warlord: Are you admining the mail server for the wiki?
17:39:49 <Rolf1> There is a problem
17:40:02 <Rolf1> It does not seem to respect mx settings
17:41:19 <jsled> Rolf1: it certainly should, and has in the past. What's the delivery address?
17:41:37 <andi5> donotreply.com :-)
17:41:44 <Rolf1> hehe
17:41:48 <Rolf1> nobody.org
17:41:50 <Rolf1> no
17:41:55 <andi5> take a look at that site, port 80 wise
17:41:59 <Rolf1> rolf.leggewie.biz
17:42:28 <Rolf1> It was rewritten to @mail.leggewie.org which is the mx
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17:47:23 <warlord> what do you mean, "mail server for the wiki"?
17:47:31 <warlord> Rolf1: -- to you?
17:48:01 <Rolf1> I tried to subscribe on the wiki
17:48:15 <Rolf1> the confirmation mail was incorrectly delivered
17:48:59 <Rolf1> account @ rolf ....
17:49:03 <Rolf1> became
17:49:13 <Rolf1> account @ mail ...
17:49:19 <Rolf1> thus undeliverable
17:50:23 <warlord> Well, there is no MX. rolf is a CNAME for mail.
17:50:37 <Rolf1> there is an mx
17:50:46 <Rolf1> "host -t mx" shows it
17:50:54 <warlord> host -t mx rolf.leggewie.org
17:50:54 <warlord> rolf.leggewie.org has no MX record
17:51:01 <warlord> host -t mx mail.leggewie.org
17:51:01 <warlord> mail.leggewie.org has no MX record
17:51:06 <Rolf1> Wait
17:51:06 <warlord> Nope, no MX
17:51:28 <Rolf1> I own both .org and .biz
17:51:53 <Rolf1> If I entered an address .org then that would have indeed been mymistake
17:51:58 <warlord> .biz has an mx
17:52:06 <Rolf1> yes
17:52:15 <Rolf1> And I only use .biz for mai
17:52:18 <Rolf1> l
17:52:33 <warlord> approximately how long ago did you sign up for the wiki?
17:52:34 <Rolf1> maybe I mixed up the 1st level unintentionally
17:52:35 <jsled> Rolf1: you did enter rolf.leggewie.org ...
17:52:43 <Rolf1> OK
17:52:50 <Rolf1> then it's just a false alarm
17:52:53 <Rolf1> sorry for the noise
17:53:21 <warlord> eh, it happens to the best of us.
17:53:23 <warlord> no worries
17:53:29 <jsled> Jul 11 15:44:40 cvs sendmail[7400]: m6BJidWD007400: to=Rolf <gnucash-wiki@rolf.leggewie.org> […]
17:53:52 <jsled> Eh, probably should have [off]'ed that.
17:54:05 <Rolf1> yes, I would have appreciated that
17:54:14 <Rolf1> but since it is an invalid address anyway ;-)
17:54:18 <jsled> heh
17:55:28 <warlord> LOL
17:59:59 <Rolf1> Are HBCI problems on-topic for gnucash?
18:00:14 <Rolf1> My account is not correctly presented
18:00:27 <Rolf1> There are 15 or so cents missing
18:01:14 <warlord> HBCI is hard to tell.. It's so hard to know whether the problem is in GnuCash or AqBanking
18:01:31 <warlord> Personally I'd suggest you talk to them first.
18:01:51 <warlord> They'll probably ask you to get a log transcript of your HBCI session.
18:01:56 <warlord> (I dont know how to do that)
18:03:56 <Rolf1> well, I'll just file it in gnome bugzilla for now
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18:04:11 <Rolf1> I think aqbanking has their own bugzilla somewhere
18:04:17 <Rolf1> but I don't know anything about it
18:04:21 <warlord> they do. I dont know where offhand.
18:04:26 <warlord> unfortunately neither do i.
18:04:47 <Rolf1> actually, I think the german ml is better
18:04:59 <warlord> that could work, too.
18:05:42 <warlord> time for beer. BIAB
18:05:43 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
18:46:05 <Rolf1> Can I get commit rights to gnucash/trunk/src/tax/us/*de_DE*
18:46:11 <Rolf1> jsled?
20:10:52 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
20:10:57 <warlord> Rolf1: done. (hopefully)
20:11:08 <Rolf1> great, thanks
20:12:34 <Rolf1> warlord: no still permission denied
20:12:48 <warlord> :(
20:13:46 <Rolf1> warlord: without the dots?
20:13:57 <warlord> I'll try without the dots...
20:14:11 <warlord> I thought it was regex. 1 sec.
20:14:30 <warlord> try now...
20:15:21 <Rolf1> nope
20:16:32 <warlord> :(
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20:17:11 <warlord> What file are you trying to edit?
20:17:18 <Rolf1> both
20:17:23 <Rolf1> the de_DE files
20:17:33 <Rolf1> Maybe you can just trust me with the whole directory?
20:17:54 <Rolf1> I promise to touch only stuff I am authorized to touch ;-)
20:18:34 <warlord> If the current one doesn't work I was planning to do that. ;)
20:18:39 <warlord> (try now)
20:19:21 <Rolf1> still the same
20:23:17 <Rolf1> ping warlord
20:23:26 <warlord> :(
20:23:30 <warlord> Okay, 1 sec.
20:23:49 <warlord> now?
20:24:56 <Rolf1> OK, there it is
20:25:14 <warlord> I just gave you access to the whole directory.
20:25:54 <Rolf1> great, thanks
20:25:57 <Rolf1> good night
20:26:02 <Rolf1> it is really late now
20:26:38 <warlord> Sleep well.
20:28:47 <Rolf1> good night
20:28:56 <Rolf1> safe trip
20:33:54 <warlord> thanks. tty from cali.
20:34:02 <warlord> (and maybe see you in Frankfurt)
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