2008-03-25 GnuCash IRC logs

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10:35:15 <BenB> can somebody please mark bug 515502 as CONFIRMED, so that it gets some attention. I think the screenshots are enough to prove that this is a bug.
10:35:52 <BenB> I don't know how to proceed, whether I have to go back to some backup file and redo 2 days of work, or whether there's some way to reciver this broken file.
10:35:57 <BenB> recover
10:36:55 <jsled> Marking it as confirmed will have no effect on its attention level.
10:39:05 <BenB> ok. this is obviously a quite serious bug, though, and filed since several months.
10:39:46 <BenB> does anybody have an idea how to recover the file? e.g. make gnucash recalculate the running sum?
10:40:28 <jsled> I'd suggest looking at the the amount and value of that transaction, and seeing if anything is amiss.
10:41:35 <BenB> not sure what you mean. What's displayed is obviously very wrong.
10:41:42 <jsled> Err, in the datafile.
10:42:16 <BenB> you want me to do the technical diagnosis, ok.
10:42:34 <jsled> No, I don't "want you to do the technical diagnosis".
10:42:43 <jsled> If you're asking how to fix the problem, that's my best guess.
10:43:28 <BenB> jsled: well, I am not going to manually modify the XML file values for a dozen entries, so this is not going to fix my problem.
10:43:37 <jsled> Why not?
10:43:58 <BenB> because I am far too likely to make errors?
10:44:10 <warlord> What happens if you delete the errant transaction and re-enter it by hand?>
10:44:11 <BenB> I wonder why the sum is in the file at all and not recalculated on the fly anyways.
10:44:22 <jsled> The sum is not in the file.
10:44:23 <warlord> It is recalculated on the fly
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10:44:36 <warlord> The problem is an invalid "number" in your transaction.
10:44:53 <BenB> warlord: which number is invalid, and how so?
10:45:13 <warlord> I dont know. I cant see your data file.
10:45:20 <warlord> I'm good, but I'm not THAT good.
10:46:10 <jsled> BenB: I'd *guess* that on the transaction, there's a difference between the <split:value> and the <split:quantity>.
10:46:29 <jsled> (which should be the same for a single-commodity transaction)
10:46:45 <jsled> Or maybe it's a difference between the values of the various splits in the transaction.
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10:50:00 * BenB tries to understand the XML format
10:50:53 <jsled> There's basically a bunch of groups. Commodities, then the acccounts, then the transactions.
10:51:02 <jsled> Somewhere there might be a pricedb.
10:51:17 <BenB> 216532/100 - ah, that's the money values!
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10:52:32 <BenB> the transaction with value 1119,05 from one of the screenshots has 2 splits, one with
10:52:48 <BenB> <split:value>111905/100</split:value><split:quantity>111905/100</split:quantity>
10:52:53 <BenB> the other with
10:53:01 <BenB> <split:value>-111905/100</split:value> <split:quantity>-111905/100</split:quantity>
10:53:31 <BenB> this does not make sense to me, but still does not explain why -5936,56 + 1119,05 = 18113,35
10:53:41 <BenB> eh, -18113,35
10:54:56 <BenB> can anybody enlighten me?
10:56:23 <BenB> actually, the +/- does make sense, it's the normal double-booking (added to one account, removed from another account)
10:56:53 <BenB> I don't understand the difference between value and quantity, but otherwise, the transaction in the file seems OK.
10:57:30 <BenB> warlord, jsled?
10:57:30 <warlord> quantity is the amount in the Split->Account commodity. value is the amount in the transaction currency.
10:58:28 <BenB> ah, so it's for currency translations (or shares to money)?
11:00:21 <BenB> if so, the transaction seems fine.
11:00:37 <BenB> then I'd have no clue why the miscalculation happens
11:02:04 <warlord> I recall one other person having this issue once... It was due to a damaged (or hidden!) transaction.
11:03:00 <warlord> The balance doesn't compute based only on visible transactions. If you have one that's not being shown (because, e.g., you hide reconciled transactions) it could still affect the balance.
11:03:19 <warlord> You might want to see if you have another transaction somewhere in the date range between the imbalances.
11:05:26 <BenB> interesting. I open the file in gnucash and now, the error happens one transaction earlier.
11:06:11 <BenB> how can I be sure to show all transactions for an account?
11:06:22 <warlord> View -> Filter by..
11:06:37 <warlord> Another question: what's your Sort Order?
11:06:41 <BenB> it says "show all" and status has all checked
11:07:04 <BenB> hm, sort order is "standard sort order". I'll try by date
11:07:14 <warlord> Standard is what you want.
11:07:27 <warlord> And yes, this issue is familiar; someone else had it.
11:07:36 <warlord> You might want to google .. I dont recall the solution.
11:07:39 <warlord> But he DID solve it.
11:07:58 <warlord> I think he just deleted and re-entered some transactions.
11:08:48 <BenB> ok, that's fine, but that kind of loses my confidence in the application and my file, because I may miss some.
11:08:55 <jsled> don't use log replay.
11:09:21 <jsled> It's never worked right.
11:09:27 <BenB> I there are a bunch of faulty transactions, and I am not going to manually calculate the correctness of one thousand transactions.
11:09:28 <warlord> Yeah, Log Reply is just... broken.
11:09:46 <warlord> Well, revert to a backup before you ran Log Replay?
11:09:50 <BenB> jsled, warlord : yes, that's what I learned. Then, by all means: remove it from the UI!
11:09:52 <warlord> You can try "Check & Repair"?
11:10:18 <BenB> warlord: I did 1-2 days of work on it after the replay :-( otherwise I would have done it.
11:10:21 <warlord> Well, Log Replay DOES work is some ways.. But it does give you lots of rope to hang yourself.
11:10:42 <warlord> I'm sorry you put the noose over your neck.
11:10:56 <jsled> well, it looked like a fur stole.
11:11:05 <BenB> warlord: there should never be a known way in the UI to completely garble your file
11:11:40 <warlord> BenB: then you might as well rm -rf / because there's no way to guarantee that a user doesn't do something that hurts themselves.
11:11:49 <warlord> You could 'rm' the data file.
11:11:56 <warlord> You could enter in bogus data
11:11:59 <jsled> except that does't advertise itself as a way to repair the system.
11:12:01 <warlord> you could fail to save your work.
11:12:11 <warlord> Log replay doesn't, either.
11:12:30 <warlord> If you choose the wrong log.... *shrugs*
11:12:36 <jsled> Sure it does. Apply this record of data-file activity.
11:12:40 <jsled> No, he didn't do that either.\
11:12:52 <BenB> warlord: be real... rm does exactly as advertized. I don't think 7359,28 + 6647,92 = -19232,40, as I see right now, can *ever* be considered a correct or desired result.
11:13:21 <warlord> BenB: you're assuming that that is the calculation being made.
11:13:37 <jsled> Maybe we should put log replay behind --enable-debug or something.
11:13:44 <BenB> this is a bug, and if it's known, then please prevent people from running into it in the UI, either by checking whether the log file matches the base file, or whatever.
11:13:53 <jsled> So it's there if people need it, but they have to seek it out.
11:14:00 <BenB> jsled: "put log replay behind --enable-debug" yes, please
11:14:03 <jsled> BenB: patches welcome. :/
11:14:08 <warlord> there's not enough information in the log file to see if matches.
11:14:14 <warlord> (that's one of the many problems with it)
11:14:18 <BenB> warlord: then put the information in.
11:14:26 <warlord> BenB: send in a patch
11:14:34 <BenB> jsled: I can surely provide a patch to disable it for optimize
11:14:45 <BenB> (or rather for --disable-debug)
11:15:10 <jsled> Well, just to be clear, I'm thinking the runtime debug switch ...
11:15:33 <jsled> And looking at the options, we actually call it "--extra".
11:15:54 <jsled> ("--debug" is for logging detail, and --enable-debug is more like a ./configure switch.)
11:15:56 <BenB> as long as there's a global var or something, shouldn't be a problem either.
11:16:24 <jsled> I guess another option would be a big fat warning dialog at the front of the log replay process.
11:16:33 <jsled> Which would be less branchy, but serve the same purpose.
11:16:54 <warlord> Doesn't help all those Ubuntu users still on 2.2.1
11:17:04 <BenB> jsled: yes, but warnings are easily overread (and you have to consider that in the UI). under which exact conditions does give replay log a desires
11:17:05 <jsled> Right, but neither does anything.
11:17:43 <BenB> desired result? I am thinking of doing both: put it under --extra, and show a warning when to use / not to use it.
11:19:56 <BenB> warlord: FWIW, I seem to have all filters disabled, and sorted by date (this should show me everything relevant, right?), and still get the strange result.
11:20:37 <BenB> where is this "Check & Repair"? I have (in german) an Actions | Check | All Transactions / This Transaction
11:20:41 <BenB> you mean that?
11:21:03 <BenB> I did both and it didn't change anything.
11:21:21 <warlord> Yes, Actions -> Check & Repair -> Check & Repair All
11:21:43 <BenB> I see, I guess the German translation is a bit different. doesn't help.
11:22:20 <warlord> Anything printed into /tmp/gnucash.trace?
11:22:37 <BenB> warlord, jsled: can you get any clue out of the fact that the problem (in this instance) seemed to move one transaction up?
11:22:43 <BenB> warlord: yes, about 50 lines
11:23:20 <warlord> BenB: can you pastebin that?
11:24:03 <BenB> yes. it unfortunately doesn't tell which transaction it applies to, and this file has transactions going back to 2003
11:24:17 <BenB> (but the problem is in the new transactions)
11:25:01 <warlord> What's it complaining about? (could you cut-and-paste one relevant line here?)
11:26:00 <warlord> If you're in a position to rebuild gnucash from source we could help you add some debugging to print more information about the errant transaction?
11:27:27 <BenB> no, I'm not really
11:27:37 <BenB> http://pastebin.ca/956759
11:28:10 <BenB> most of the complaints seems to be about the transfers from a USD account to an EUR account.
11:28:20 <BenB> these are not the problematic transactions, though
11:29:25 <BenB> the last two warnings say "no currency", but the transactions I'm looking at have <trn:currency>...<cmdty:id>EUR</cmdty:id></trn:currency>
11:34:07 <BenB> warlord: ^
11:35:53 <warlord> So you looked at those transactions mentioned? e.g. 0a54b197d2923e739f1e0809814e91bd,
11:36:52 <BenB> no... that is not the "no currency" warning, the latter does not print the transaction ID.
11:37:21 <BenB> when I said "the transactions I'm looking at", I meant those with the wrong calculations
11:38:02 <warlord> BenB: yes, but the error most likely isn't with the transaction with the wrong calculation; it's elsewhere.
11:38:14 <warlord> Check the transaction with GUID 0a54b197d2923e739f1e0809814e91bd
11:38:42 <BenB> hm, indeed, you're right
11:39:03 <BenB> it has a date posted 2007-02-07, which about the same time as the faulty transactions
11:53:12 <BenB> warlord: actually, it was about a month away from the fauly transaction. the transaction with the warning had several duplicates. I manually removed them all from the XML file, restarted gnucash and loaded the file again. now, no more warnings related to the file, and the transaction with the warning is gone in the UI, but the orginal problem witht he wrong calculation persists.
11:53:57 <warlord> Hmm...
11:54:07 <warlord> What do you mean by "several duplicates"?
11:54:43 <BenB> several transactions with this monerary value and date.
11:56:15 <BenB> at least on one side. some of them had a currency rate (to translate between USD and EUR), some not. one had value 226/100 and quantity 240/100 on one side and 226/100 as value and quantity on the other, which looks wrong to me.
11:57:21 <BenB> but this seems unrelated. they are all gone and the original problem persists.
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12:07:49 <BenB> so, to summarize: no trace warnings anymore, nothing looking wrong in the XML file for this particular transaction, no filters and sort by date which could hide transactions.
12:08:15 <BenB> and if there's any other transaction causing that, I wouldn't know how or how to find it.
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12:39:04 <warlord> You're using 2.2.4?
12:41:08 <warlord> (sorry for the delay -- was on the phone with my manager)
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13:08:08 <BenB> warlord: 2.2.0 (latest in suse)
13:09:00 <warlord> Eww.
13:09:02 <warlord> Buggy.
13:09:03 <warlord> Update
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13:21:12 <BenB> well, I do update via suse, and that's the newest one.
13:21:26 <warlord> * sigh *
13:21:43 <warlord> 2.2.4 is current
13:21:44 <BenB> warlord: is there a *relevant* bug fixed in this?
13:21:49 <warlord> I have no idea.
13:21:58 <BenB> because updating will cost me considerable time.
13:22:00 <warlord> I dont know what the problem is..
13:22:15 <warlord> I've only heard of this once before.
13:22:31 <warlord> and they solved the problem.
13:23:20 <BenB> how do I update to the latest gnucash? on the website, there's only the source code. I'm not going to compile it from scratch, given the dependencies.
13:24:32 <warlord> Well, if you're not willing to build it and your distribution hasn't updated then I guess you're stuck, aren't you?
13:26:00 <BenB> well, unless you know this fixed it, I'm not going to spend several hours on an update that may or may not have anything relevant to this.
13:26:30 <BenB> http://packages.opensuse-community.org/index.jsp?searchTerm=gnucash&distro=openSUSE_103
13:27:08 <BenB> latest suse gnome unstable is 2.2.0. there's a 2.2.4 from a "wbochum", but I have no idea whether these binaries are vetted or could come from anybody.
13:27:26 <jsled> You should encourage your distro to stay up to date; for the .x releases, it should be as easy as a rebuild.
13:27:33 <BenB> gnucash for suse is http://packages.opensuse-community.org/index.jsp?searchTerm=gnucash&distro=openSUSE_103
13:27:39 <BenB> gncbot: gnucash for suse is http://packages.opensuse-community.org/index.jsp?searchTerm=gnucash&distro=openSUSE_103
13:27:39 <gncbot> BenB: Error: "gnucash" is not a valid command.
13:28:39 <BenB> I should? I see.
13:28:40 <jsled> BenB: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/SuSE
13:30:10 <jsled> I wonder why crauch's repo isn't in the opensuse.org list.
13:30:37 <jsled> His seems to be a prominent multi-package repo. Or maybe I'm just biased because he's been around gnucash for a while.
13:30:41 * jsled knows nothing about suse.
13:30:46 <BenB> jsled: thanks, but there are no 10.3 packages.
13:31:17 <warlord> I think CRauch stopped using SuSE himself.
13:31:31 <jsled> oh. heh. That'd explain it.
13:32:17 <warlord> BenB: Seriously, You might want to search the IRC Logs and Mail List archives, because I know I've worked with someone else on this problem and they solved it. But I honestly dont remember what his solution was. It WAS an errant transaction.
13:33:20 <BenB> warlord: ok.... I wonder how he found the errant transaction, though.
13:33:27 <BenB> I can search.
13:34:15 <BenB> and I can attach a patch to disable the log replay feature unless --extra is enabled, and to add a warning even then, about in which situations the feature works and in which ones it produces a broken file.
13:34:36 <BenB> jsled, warlord: do you know in which exact situations log replay works, and/or in which it doesn't?
13:35:43 <warlord> It works if you load log files for that data file when you have a crash, but only if the log file is from that data file and only if it's from AFTER the last save.. and only if you didn't add new accounts.
13:35:53 <warlord> And only for transactions.. Not business features.
13:36:49 <BenB> I see. sounds like a carpet knife without protection, offered to children :)
13:37:21 <BenB> warlord: I guess the feature is used internally automatically to recover from a crash, like MS Word does?
13:37:52 <BenB> warlord: but thanks.... I hope I can add a warning dialog saying something to that effect.
13:38:13 <warlord> Nope.
13:38:17 <warlord> It's not used internally.
13:38:20 <BenB> ok
13:38:28 <warlord> Internally we have an AutoSave feature..
13:38:34 <BenB> ah.
13:38:53 <warlord> Which, if you didn't turn off, should save you from losing data.
13:39:08 <warlord> (although I dont recall if it was pre- or post- 2.2.0)
13:39:08 <BenB> apart from the last 5 minutes
13:39:21 <BenB> yes, 2.2.0 definitely has that feature, I use it.
13:40:02 <warlord> Yes, apart from the last 5 minutes (or whatever you configured it for)..
13:40:10 <warlord> But honestly, how hard is it to re-do 5 minutes of work?
13:40:20 <BenB> agreed, that's not a problem.
13:41:03 <warlord> So... why DID you Replay the log?
13:41:57 <BenB> my problem, FYI, was that I made a backup by saying "save as...", then forgot to load the old file and edited the backup. I only noticed when I came back to gnucash weeks later, and then didn't know what was the most current one (there may actually have been changes to the real file, too), and went with the real file and replayed the changes of the backup file on top of it.
13:42:37 <warlord> Oh. Umm.
13:42:40 <warlord> That's not good.
13:42:59 <BenB> well, I know that *now*. the feature as it appears in the UI seems to support exactly cases like these.
13:42:59 <warlord> That would fall under "playing a log from a different file"
13:43:13 <warlord> No, it's not at all for cases like that.
13:43:22 <BenB> I thought log files are just like diff files for source code.
13:43:28 <warlord> It's SPECIFICALLY for the case of "system crashes before I saved data"
13:43:31 <warlord> Nope.
13:43:38 <BenB> yes, that's clear to me *now*.
13:43:42 <warlord> They are similar, but.. no.
13:43:47 <BenB> and I want to make it clear in the UI as well.
13:43:59 <warlord> Why? It's clear in the documentation. You DID read that, right?
13:44:05 <BenB> bad joke.
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14:31:38 <richbl> hello all... I have a quick question about getting started with gnucash...
14:34:38 <BenB> richbl: always just ask your question
14:35:40 <richbl> right... the question is: are there sample files for gnucash somewhere? That'll help me get a better understanding of how things work in gnucash... thanks
14:36:12 <jsled> there aren't sample data files, but there is a druid to setup your datafile from a set of predefined account hierarchies.
14:36:43 <jsled> If you do File > New File you should get that druid.
14:36:57 <richbl> thanks jsled... I've played around with the wizard, eh... druid... I guess that answers my question spot on
14:37:16 <jsled> If not, try File > New > New Account Hierarchy (when on an Accounts tab)
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14:38:15 <GnuCash> Oops, I guess I should change my alias
14:38:26 <warlord> richbl: I already answered your question on the -user list.
14:39:19 <GnuCash> Can someone explain where I enter share capital please ? (business accounts)
14:39:44 <GnuCash> is that a liability ?
14:40:12 <richbl> warlord: just now received it (derek?)
14:40:17 <warlord> Yes
14:40:24 <warlord> GnuCash: "Share Capital"?
14:40:33 <warlord> expand that, please?
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14:41:13 <GnuCash> yes, I run a Ltd. Company, and that company has shareholders - me - when I started the company up I issued 100 shares to myself for 1 pence per share
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14:41:50 <warlord> That would be Owner's Equity
14:42:12 <GnuCash> under 'Equity' ?
14:42:17 <warlord> Yes
14:42:20 <GnuCash> OK
14:42:49 <GnuCash> Thanks
14:45:59 <GnuCash> Thanks Warlord - I hate to say it, but I'll be back
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14:51:29 <BenB> a one pound company? heh.
14:52:16 <BenB> Ltd - Liability limited to one pound (TM)
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15:04:11 <warlord> hehe
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15:47:42 <Mech422> Hi all - I was just wondering how 'solid' the small biz. features are in gnucash? I run a small consulting shop and need basic A/R, A/P. It would be nice to have multiple billing rates or billing rate per client, but I can probably work around that. I don't need any 'stock' functions, and don't have any employees (just contractors - 1099 )
15:50:13 <warlord> Many businesses run gnucash.
15:50:31 <warlord> All billing rates are inserted manually, so yes, you can have multiple billing rates.
15:52:43 <Mech422> warlord: 'manually' - one time as part of a setup process ? or everytime I create an invoice ?
15:53:12 <warlord> Currently, every time you create an invoice.
15:54:38 <Mech422> warlord: ouch... How is migration to newer versions? Do new versions typically install easily ?
15:56:54 <warlord> What OS?
15:57:01 <warlord> (or Distro)
15:58:31 <Mech422> Generally Debian packages - but I can build from source as well
15:59:23 <Mech422> (oh - and 1 final question - Are there any docs comparing gnuCash to SQL-Ledger for small biz use ? )
16:00:55 <warlord> upgrades should "just work
16:01:05 <warlord> There may be external reviews.
16:01:16 <warlord> None from us.
16:04:43 <Mech422> ahh cool - I was a little worried about data file changes between versions...
16:05:09 <Mech422> google really isn't very helpful for 'open source' accounting - lots of really old cruft
16:08:07 <warlord> yeah.
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20:34:04 <yoz> hi
20:34:18 <yoz> how can I get a free copy of activeperl
20:34:54 <yoz> I would like to install finance quote on vista
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20:40:20 <yoz> how can I get a free copy of activeperl
20:40:35 <yoz> anybody here?
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22:20:15 <warlord> gee, yoz... maybe if you lasted more thn 6 minutes....
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