2008-03-05 GnuCash IRC logs

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10:05:02 <gnome> hello, has anybody read my message to gnucash-devel about "Posttax discounts in invoices"?
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10:06:56 <gnome> In this mail I ask about the handling of POSTTAX discounts in invoices, which are IMHO calculated not correctly.
10:07:11 <gnome> Can anybody confirm this bug?
10:08:15 <warlord> gnome: yes, I've read it. twice.
10:08:53 <warlord> however I can neither confirm nor deny the bug.. I haven't looked.
10:10:01 <warlord> BUT.. with a "value" discount, IIRC, two of the three should be the same.
10:16:41 <gnome> Hm, I dont think so. With pretax one gives a discount from the net amount, with posttax from the gross amount. In both cases, the tax is calculated correctly. The sametime discount is for a discount with is, for some reason, not taken into account for taxing.
10:19:41 <gnome> I have written my own tool to parse Gnucash data files and to generate invoices from some template. Then I saw that I calculated taxes and discounts different than Gnucash. Hence I want to infer which is the "correct" way...
10:20:01 <warlord> Why did you go through the trouble to do that?
10:20:14 <warlord> As opposed to working within the existing gnucash framework?
10:20:23 <warlord> Seems like a lot of work (e.g. parsing the data file) that's already been done.
10:20:27 <warlord> Eh. Anyways..
10:21:42 <warlord> I'd have to go look at the code. You could do that too. src/business/business-core
10:21:46 <warlord> I THINK it's in gncEntry.c
10:21:49 <gnome> I wanted to create LaTeX invoices as described in "http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Can_I_print_Invoices_through_LaTeX_from_GnuCash.3F"
10:22:16 <gnome> But this tool did not work for me, and is not powerful enought, so I wrote my own tool.
10:22:43 <gnome> Ok, I will look at the code, and compare it to my implementation.
10:22:53 <warlord> It COULD be a bug.
10:23:07 <warlord> Wouldn't be the first. ;)
10:23:35 <warlord> If it is a bug... create a bugzilla entry.. And even better, supply a patch that fixes it ;)
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10:56:07 <gnome> I think its an error. Looking at gncEntry.c, first the net value "pretax" is calculated. For GNC_DISC_POSTTAX, "after_tax" is calculated, and from this "after_tax" the "discoun"t. Then "result" is defined as "the value the merchant gets". This "result" is calculated by subtracting the "discount" from "pretax". I think "discount" should be subtracted from "after_tax", and "result" should be calculated from this value subtraction taxes. I will try to make a bu
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11:08:42 <warlord> gnome: you got cut off after " I will try to make a bu"
11:09:40 <gnome> I said I want to make a bugzilla entry.
11:10:27 <gnome> Another observation: for value discount, the resultl is calculated by "result = gnc_numeric_sub (pretax, discount, GNC_DENOM_AUTO, GNC_DENOM_LCD);"
11:10:53 <gnome> for the case of POSTTAX
11:12:04 <gnome> I think, as i said it should be subracted from after_tax, and the result should be calculed anew by subtracting taxes from after_tax - discount.
11:12:50 <gnome> Or is my logic flawed?
11:29:47 <warlord> honestly, I dont know. My mind isn't in context right now.
11:31:13 <warlord> Sorry.
11:31:23 <warlord> It could very much be a bug.
11:31:41 <warlord> I dont know how it's supposed to work offhand.. It's been years since I've touched that code.
11:32:48 <gnome> Ok, i will write a bugzilla entry with my considerations.
11:33:59 <gnome> Another question, as mentioned I wrote a tool to create LaTeX invoices. Is there in the meantime some way to create this directly from Gnucash?
11:34:20 <gnome> Or should I publish my tool to do such things?
11:35:19 <warlord> I would rather see your "tool" integrated into gnucash. Supply a latex template and click a button and it outputs the invoice .tex file.
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11:36:35 <gnome> More precise, it does not need to be a latex file, it can be any template to be filled out.
11:38:58 <warlord> Right.
11:39:21 <warlord> I keep talking about 'e-guile' as a templating mechanism... which would fit in quite easily into the existing gnucash reporting infrastructure.
11:41:18 <warlord> then ANYTHING can be a template
11:42:23 <gnome> I will post my tool; maybe someone is inspired from the way it does things for a builtin templating. Among other things, arbitrary expressions can be used in my templates, and e.g. formatting of numbers can be customized and localized.
11:42:58 <gnome> And it calculates discounts correctly :-)
11:44:42 <warlord> Arguably correctly.. Certainly differently.
11:47:28 <warlord> Let me guess -- your tool is in python, right?
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11:50:19 <gnome> correctly guessed!
11:52:31 <warlord> * grumbles *
11:52:41 <warlord> Why do so many people seem to like that ugly language?
11:52:41 <jsled> why?
11:52:49 <jsled> ugly?
11:53:08 <warlord> Yeah.
11:53:11 <warlord> ugly
11:53:35 <zarchne> which?
11:53:47 <gnome> I didn't like perl so much anymore
11:53:49 <jsled> python.
11:59:31 * zarchne nods.
11:59:46 * zarchne is language agnostic.
12:00:11 <zarchne> (within the confines of debian main)
12:01:27 <jsled> huh?
12:01:33 <zarchne> I haven't been keeping up on gnucash... (haven't balanced my checkbook in a couple years...)
12:02:59 <zarchne> um. "language agnotic within the confines of debian main" ... I'm not going to get into language dissing, as long as it's something that's freely available.
12:03:37 <zarchne> I haven't been keeping up on gnucash... (haven't balanced my checkbook in a couple years...) I used to think it would be great to have an extention to gnucash that would be a vehicle maintenace log.
12:14:32 <warlord> i think that would be out of scope for gnucash
12:18:19 * zarchne shrugs.
12:19:13 <gnome> ok, I have submitted my issues with invoice discount taxing to bugzilla.
12:19:16 <zarchne> I'm not suggesting it as standard component. It may already be doable within the confines of guile.
12:19:56 <warlord> gnome: yep, i see it.
12:20:02 <warlord> a patch would be even better ;)
12:20:04 <zarchne> (Hm. Must remember to check my typing.)
12:20:43 <warlord> I'm not sure what guile has to do with anything. I'm not sure what a vehicle log has to do with finances.
12:21:04 <jsled> gas costs money.
12:21:07 <jsled> repairs cost money.
12:21:17 <jsled> Some of those expenses are predictable.
12:21:19 <zarchne> Everything you do to a vehicle costs money.
12:22:02 <zarchne> My dad used to keep a maintenance log on graph paper.
12:22:25 <zarchne> (graph paper being incidental)
12:23:04 <zarchne> I would log my vehicle expenses in gnucash...
12:23:34 <jsled> Yeah; I've been entering gas purchases with a bit of encoding in the memo.
12:23:42 <jsled> But nothing to process them, yet.
12:23:45 <zarchne> But it doesn't have a good place to put odometer reading. So that you can do anything with it.
12:24:43 <zarchne> So, I'm not alone, but there's nothing yet. Good to know, thanks.
12:24:57 <jsled> No, it's been brought up a few times. I'd personally like it.
12:25:04 * zarchne nods
12:25:04 <jsled> But I go both ways about how it should work.
12:25:17 <zarchne> What's those?
12:25:28 <jsled> I mean, it pretty clearly shouldn't be part of the core data model.
12:25:35 <zarchne> Right...
12:25:52 <jsled> I guess the KVP idea really is the right thing.
12:26:09 <zarchne> MVP?
12:26:14 <jsled> Key Value Pair.
12:26:15 <zarchne> MVC?
12:26:24 <warlord> KVP
12:26:35 <zarchne> Oh... the dreaded Key-value pair.
12:26:36 <jsled> Most Engine objects have basically an arbitrary-use hashtable.
12:27:45 <zarchne> Now you're over my head.
12:27:59 <zarchne> But I don't want to spend time on this ATM.
12:28:20 <jsled> Oh ... the idea would be that the mileage plugin/extension would be able to store that data associated with the gas-purchase transaction without the engine needing to know what it means.
12:28:52 * zarchne nods.
12:28:54 <jsled> Oh. Well, then, me neither! ;)
12:29:24 <zarchne> I don't blame you. Thanks again.
12:32:03 <zarchne> (Would note that I read some anti-KVP (just keep forgetting the name) literature that admitted that it's not always avoidable.)
12:34:40 <jsled> Similarly, yesterday I was reading <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML> ["This is excerpted from Tim Bray’s On OOXML, which discusses both sides of the issue and which should be read in full for context."], where he says [[[
12:34:41 <jsled> OOXML allows the use of “custom schemas”; i.e. you can enrich your documents with your own elements and attributes, and still work on them with Office. The problem is, history teaches that this is a terrible idea. As far back as the Eighties, people were doing this with SGML, and of course XML tried to continue the practice. It should be instructive that there were several companies founded to build and sell the technology around this, and no
12:34:42 <jsled> ne of them ever made any money to speak of; they’re gone.
12:34:44 <jsled> ]]]
12:35:23 <zarchne> Fortunately, I'm not trying to make money on it.
12:36:10 <jsled> Of course, the degree of complexity of the problem isn't quite the same, but it's still there to some degree.
12:40:29 <zarchne> (Talking off the cuff; this is IRC) Perhaps the problem (as I am guessing) would be ameliorated as long as it were used for releasing extensions back to the public view. And... if they became popular they could be added to the data model.
12:46:55 <zarchne> That's basically what that anti-KVP article I remember said. "You don't do this if you have control over the database design, but if you have to allow a user to create their own model without changing the table structure you don't have much choice."
12:54:41 <warlord> right, which is why it's in there..
12:54:49 <warlord> to allow backwards-compatibility of data files.
12:54:55 <warlord> (without data loss)
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13:53:16 <LiF0> strftime in fancy-invoice.scm uses %e for the day of month and nothing comes out there... it work if i change it to %d...what's going on?
13:57:05 <LiF0> this is v 2.2.4 on Win btw. first time i've ever ran/installed/seen gnucash... (yes, that smell is fine fresh n00b)
13:57:09 <warlord> windows sucks
13:57:14 <LiF0> typica.
13:57:45 <warlord> %d is "wrong", but windows doesn't support %e
13:58:23 <LiF0> I want it without the leading zero.
14:00:54 <warlord> ah... then change it
14:01:36 <warlord> see previous information on the list/wiki about keeping the invoice open
14:01:48 <LiF0> ahh. %#d is the same as %e
14:02:06 <LiF0> what do you mean by "open" ?
14:03:01 <LiF0> Here's a ref to the windows strftime() in case anyone cares: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/fe06s4ak.aspx
14:06:42 <warlord> Hmm, I wonder if %#d works on Windows and Mac?
14:07:36 <LiF0> doubt it.
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14:10:11 <warlord> Yeah, that would make life too easy.
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14:33:30 <kingofleon> hi all
14:34:51 <kingofleon> i need some help. i am trying to enter to the capital contribution information of the partners.
14:35:09 <kingofleon> is there a standart for for this?
14:35:50 <kingofleon> or is there a generic form where a transaction can be recorded into multiple (2x) accounts?
14:36:03 <kingofleon> your help would be appreciated.
14:37:59 <warlord> sorry, I dont understand this question in reference to gnucash?
14:38:06 <kingofleon> yes
14:38:50 <kingofleon> imagine you have two accounts. one is cash at bank, other is the capital contribution of the company partners
14:39:07 <kingofleon> ie: two partners contribute 100USD each
14:39:32 <kingofleon> there would be 200 at bank and 100usd of capital per partner
14:39:47 <kingofleon> how do i enter this into accounts?
14:42:57 <warlord> Equity:Capital:Partner 1 and E:C:Partner 2 ?
14:43:33 <kingofleon> yes
14:43:59 <kingofleon> but the amounts
14:45:11 <kingofleon> how do i enter the amounts into the relevant account codes?
14:45:35 <warlord> you type a 1, then a 0, then another 0 ?
14:46:30 <kingofleon> :)
14:46:52 <kingofleon> so i enter values into accounts manually
14:48:02 <kingofleon> i wondered if there were a way of entering this info via a form into double accounts so that there would be less human error risk
14:48:43 <warlord> Just specify the correct transfer account.
14:50:52 <kingofleon> ok. i see
14:52:12 <kingofleon> thanks. i didn't think it was possible
14:53:17 <warlord> Why not?
14:53:26 <warlord> It's double entry accounting. you HAVE to specify it.
14:53:36 <warlord> (or it gets put into the Imbalance account)
14:54:53 <kingofleon> the system i had used before did not allow direct entry into account codes. there was a form for every entry
14:55:41 <warlord> this is gnucash. gnucash is your friend.
14:55:52 <kingofleon> :)
14:56:20 <kingofleon> thanks
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14:56:40 <kingofleon> and keep up the good work. i am looking forward to the portable edition
14:56:48 <warlord> heheh
15:03:02 <kingofleon> bye
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15:19:13 <illimitable> hi folks.
15:20:14 <illimitable> I'd like to ask how to get a list of my expenses by account exported into a form I can manipulate in Excel. In all likelihood, I'm not willing/capable of learning scheme.
15:20:33 <illimitable> what d'y'all say about that?
15:21:36 <jsled> rock on? :)
15:21:59 <jsled> see <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_can_I_export_data.3F> for ideas about exporting.
15:22:04 <illimitable> jsled: thank you very much, sir, but is there currently a way to do this?
15:22:34 <jsled> Presumably, if the gnucash -xslt-> gnumeric pipeline works, that gnumeric spreadsheet could be saved as excel.
15:22:59 <illimitable> jsled: okay. I'll look into it.
15:23:16 <jsled> Oh, and just a couple of days ago I found <http://thegreens.serveftp.net:8040/index.php/2008/03/01/convert-gnucash-file-to-openoffice-spreadsheet/>, which is as the slug says.
15:23:19 <illimitable> I'm really grateful that the developers put out a windows binary
15:23:42 <illimitable> I used to use gnucash on Linux, but I'm restrained in my choices right now.
15:23:47 <jsled> And if you're on Windows, Open Office might be more accessible than gnumeric, though I think gnumeric's available on Windows, too.
15:23:56 * illimitable has gnumeric
15:24:56 <illimitable> just on the philosophy of it, why is this sort of reporting not what GnuCash does out of the box?
15:25:23 <jsled> Hmm?
15:25:36 <jsled> Do the existing reports not work for you?
15:25:49 <illimitable> I don't have a moral right to complain since I'm not interested/able to learn the skills to make a contribution.
15:25:58 <illimitable> Jsled: that's really what I'm saying.
15:26:17 <jsled> (though that's another option ... run a report that gets something close to what you want, then Export the report (as HTML), and import the HTML into $spreadsheet.
15:26:43 <illimitable> jsled: the piechart is useful, but if I want to be able to manipulate an expense report, it gets trickier.
15:27:39 <jsled> What about the Transaction Report, setup for all the Expense Accounts?
15:27:53 <illimitable> I think most of the dev has focused on custom business reports? Vendors, billing? But exporting to csv would be my guess of a quick and easy way to make gnucash even more useful.
15:28:08 * illimitable is not a business user. Just personal finances.
15:28:24 <warlord> illimitable: I disagree. Most of the reports started for individuals..
15:28:35 <warlord> Just.. individuals who understand accounting needs.
15:28:47 <illimitable> So okay, use html reports, and process these? Or else do XSL-->gnumeric-->spreadsheet of my choice
15:28:48 <warlord> What information do you need that you can't find from the current reports?
15:29:45 <illimitable> warlord: a columnar and sortable list of all expenses (or income) by account
15:30:29 <warlord> Income Statement (aka Profit & Loss)
15:30:44 <warlord> Or, as jsled said... The Transaction Report.
15:30:56 <warlord> How do you want it sorted?
15:32:46 <illimitable> I want it for just expenses, or just income. Actually, I just want expenses. And then the amounts. I only want too columns, sorted by amount. Then, If I were free to do so, I'd calculate percentage expense to date for year, and for month.
15:33:01 <illimitable> too* two
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15:34:05 <warlord> Why?
15:34:05 <illimitable> the reports are really pretty good, I think. It's just not being able to manipulate the numbers without knowing scheme is a bother? I guess
15:34:16 <warlord> Scheme is easy!
15:34:30 <warlord> We've had two people in the last month pick it up and start contributing useful patches!
15:34:45 <warlord> anyways, i gotta run for a bit. back soon.
15:34:49 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
15:35:26 <illimitable> warlord: true. Scheme is "easy" for anyone who wants to learn it, but it's a specialized skill that I, a sociologist, probably won't learn.
15:35:45 <illimitable> I just want to watch my finances.
15:36:12 <illimitable> warlord: but you're right, that's what I "should" do, given no limits on my personal resources.
15:37:19 <illimitable> as far as the report? I sort through my expenditures monthly, and look for the places where I could avoid spending. The expense piechart is good, but it omits x number of expenses below the threshhold.
15:37:42 <illimitable> maybe I need to learn the new budgeting scheme in gnucash 2x?
15:38:01 <jsled> Which version are you running?
15:38:56 <illimitable> 2.2.3 for windows, from binary. 2.0-2.2.0 didn't install due to the glitch with gnomelibs or something? i can't recall.
15:39:13 <illimitable> but finally, it works! and I've been using it since the new year.
15:39:49 <illimitable> and I'm generally very pleased. A lot prettier than 1.* I used to use.
15:41:32 <illimitable> okay, using sed to edit the html? let's see
15:41:57 <jsled> sed?
15:42:47 <illimitable> or maybe in vi
15:42:56 <illimitable> or maybe I should strip the tags using perl
15:43:06 <jsled> why would you want to do either?
15:43:13 <illimitable> I used to be a system admin, but that's not what I do anymore, praise god.
15:43:24 <illimitable> strip tags, use $ as a field delimiter
15:43:32 <jsled> Oh, to make it csv?
15:43:35 <illimitable> yes
15:43:45 <jsled> (or, dollar-sep-values, I guess)
15:43:55 <illimitable> okay, this isn't going to work. my regex sauce is weak.
15:43:56 <jsled> You might just try importing the HTML.
15:44:06 <jsled> As others have said, HTML tables are the new CSV.
15:44:10 <illimitable> into excel?
15:44:13 <jsled> Yup.
15:44:14 <illimitable> a ver.
15:45:09 <illimitable> well, hot diggity damn
15:45:12 <illimitable> you're right
15:45:46 <illimitable> okay, if spreadsheets handle html, hurray.
15:46:20 <illimitable> I think maybe that's a good thing for the export FAQ question. Some of us are not all smart; our sauce is weak.
15:47:22 <jsled> Good point. Feel free to edit the wiki FAQ ... I'll try to remember to do so later, if not.
15:49:14 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
15:49:34 <illimitable> eww eww eww eww. there's an error I don't care about in the income statement report. Doesn't sum at top; just shows 0.00.
15:49:42 <illimitable> Maybe that's useful for you.
15:51:13 <illimitable> another suggestion: it's not entirely clear from the interface that it's going to export to html. Label the widget "export to html" or else have the user choose html from a menu?
15:51:37 <illimitable> oh, here it does say that
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15:54:31 <illimitable> export of expense piechart to html results in an empty document with opening and closing tags but no graphical content
15:55:14 <jsled> that's correct, unfortunately.
15:55:15 <warlord> Yes, known issue with GoG
15:55:52 <jsled> It's us, really. We have the pixmap, and could get it as PNG or something. Of course, I don't think gtkhtml would play nice.
15:56:01 <jsled> Since it's an <object>, not an <img>. :/
16:00:34 <zarchne> illimitable: I'm have cognitive dissonance that someone is capable of using sed but not scheme.
16:00:44 <jsled> heh
16:05:11 <zarchne> Although, I guess I fall into that same category, in a sense. Just that I think I just need to learn gnucash's bindings.
16:14:11 <illimitable> zarchne: ability and interest are different things, you know. I learned some basic text processing when I worked in the dot-com bubble, but after that ride, I decided I didn't actually like computer stuff as a vocation.
16:14:47 <illimitable> so now I just work to get the job done, and don't really care to learn anything extensive if I don't have to.
16:15:19 * illimitable auctions off an OReilly menagerie, vintage editions, rare, circa 2002.
16:21:50 * zarchne grins.
16:26:28 <zarchne> illimitable: I bet there's a whole class of people like that. You could write a paper.
16:26:35 * zarchne ducks and runs.
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16:58:16 <warlord> @op andrewsw-afk
16:58:17 *** gncbot sets mode: +o andrewsw-afk
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16:59:19 <andrewsw> thx warlod
16:59:21 <andrewsw> r
17:00:12 <andrewsw> gygax dead :(
17:00:25 <warlord> yeah, i know.
17:01:40 <andrewsw> he was actually younger than I thought.
17:05:37 *** _gunni_ has quit IRC
17:05:51 <warlord> I'll roll a d20 for him
17:07:43 <andrewsw> I"ve got a fishing trip coming up in june with some old buds. Might have to bust out the dice in memory of many geeky years...
17:10:24 <warlord> hehehe
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17:34:05 <andrewsw> hmmm... I had to kill gnucash remotely today (don't ask) but I get no file lock error... Do we handle SIGKILL better now?
17:34:39 <jsled> I don't believe so.
17:35:30 <andrewsw> eww... that could be a problem then... maybe I just haven't opened the right file/
17:37:21 <andrewsw> it would be nice if we, on SIGKILL, recognise whether we've saved or not and release the lock if we're saved.
17:38:18 <jsled> SIGKILL (and STOP) can't be caught
17:38:28 <jsled> SIGQUIT or something would be more appropriate.
17:38:36 <zarchne> TERM or INT
17:38:38 <andrewsw> yeah okay.
17:38:41 <jsled> er, right.
17:39:07 <andrewsw> TERM would be the one I"m thinking of. Whatever you get with a default kill <pid of gnucash>
17:39:16 <andrewsw> man kill says TERM.
17:39:16 * zarchne nods.
17:39:30 <zarchne> INT = ^C
17:41:42 <zarchne> (incidentally.)
17:42:54 <andrewsw> I really don't know what the general expectations of behavior for a TERM or INT, but that's just my thought on it.
17:43:23 <zarchne> "Clean up cleanly" would be good behavior on either, IMO.
17:43:34 <andrewsw> THen when someone goes for reboot without thinking there's a chance to preserve data.
17:43:38 <andrewsw> right.
17:43:49 <andrewsw> I wonder what the windows implications are...
17:44:34 <andrewsw> I'm not sure whether we should actually save if were not already saved, but if we are already saved (likely with auto-save implemented) we could at least remove the lock.
17:47:25 <zarchne> Well, yeah, I guess *saving* before exit might be too surprising.
17:48:45 <zarchne> More like, make sure the log file is fsync'd, if that isn't guaranteed already.
17:49:41 <andrewsw> yeah, I don't know. I also don't know what state log-replay is in... there are features that aren't implemented there. Maybe save a "panic" version of the file just in case and advise the user on restart.
17:54:03 <andrewsw> aha, there's the lock. wrong file.
17:54:34 <andrewsw> It *was* nice to be able to kill it remotely knowing that the data was saved, but a pain to see that lock warning because there was no need for it.
18:02:50 <andrewsw> well, maybe over spring break I can look at it. out for now..
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20:30:17 <Cucurbita> I saw in the irc history that there were problems with the windows binary - hourglass when I start gnucash- I can see tip of day and splash screen of the application comin g up but then application shows as "not running"
20:30:34 <Cucurbita> is there a fix for this?
20:31:15 <Cucurbita> I tried the removal of .gnome2, .gnucash, etc
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21:03:36 <Cucurbita> hi
21:03:52 <Cucurbita> should I be installing perl to make gnucash work on windows?
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