2008-01-31 GnuCash IRC logs

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09:11:43 <vinci_> I have question about backwards compatibility: Can I use newer data in older Gnucash. Where the any format changes? And if yes are they documented somewhere?
09:12:10 <vinci_> I like to use a distro which uses older version.
09:12:36 <vinci_> I could compile myself but I dont know yet if I will make it. Just evaluating the situation now.
09:13:52 <jsled> which versions?
09:14:42 <jsled> 2.0 -> 1.8 fine. 2.2 -> 2.0 will a) have not work if you have scheduled transactions, but otherwise will work with a noted issue.
09:14:57 <jsled> This is documented in the release notes for all 2.2 versions.
09:15:53 <vinci_> 2.2 -> 1.8
09:16:16 * vinci_ will look at release notes then
09:16:26 <jsled> What distro only has 1.8?
09:16:28 <vinci_> I will add this to FAQ if I find
09:16:33 <vinci_> OpenBSD
09:16:40 <vinci_> afaik
09:17:02 <vinci_> I found this http://ports.openbsd.nu/productivity/gnucash
09:17:13 <vinci_> on google "gnucash openbsd"
09:17:17 <vinci_> maybe there are newer
09:17:38 <jsled> Oh. Well, 1.8 is *ancient* at this point. 2.0 was released a few years ago.
09:18:01 <vinci_> I know, I use 2.2.3 on foresight right now
09:20:02 <jsled> It seems freshports has 2.2.3 … http://www.freshports.org/finance/gnucash/
09:20:10 <vinci_> oh
09:20:11 <jsled> I'm not sure if that's useable for OpenBSD.
09:20:22 <vinci_> if i can use that...
09:20:31 * vinci_ will install openbsd tomorrow
09:20:44 <vinci_> jsled: thanks for looking
09:20:45 <jsled> Why Foresight -> OpenBSD?
09:21:02 <vinci_> haha
09:21:06 <vinci_> good question
09:21:08 * jsled is curious about why people choose distros.
09:21:50 <vinci_> http://flinux.wordpress.com/2008/01/27/giving-up-on-foresight-linux/
09:22:01 <vinci_> If you really want to know
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09:22:10 * vinci_ is curious, too
09:22:11 <vinci_> ;)
09:22:48 <vinci_> short answer: stability issues
09:24:12 <jsled> Hmm. It's having trouble loading atm ("Transferring data from www.google-analytics.com…"), but I think Google brought that to my attention the other day (c.f. the GnuCash reference).
09:24:25 <jsled> The title sounds familiar, at least.
09:27:56 <jsled> yeah, right.
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09:33:02 <marina> hi all
09:33:10 <jsled> hello
09:33:50 <marina> i am all pro gnu cash and want to convert our all booking to it. I was looking for a couple of functions and seems cannot find it
09:34:39 <marina> is there a way to schedule payments recieved by the customers? right now I enter every month the same payments over and over again. It is same for each customer
09:34:45 <jsled> no.
09:35:05 <vinci_> but scheduled transactiosn exist, jsled?
09:35:10 <jsled> yes.
09:35:22 <vinci_> whats the difference?
09:35:43 <marina> i looked up scheduled transactions but it seems to be more for loan payoffs
09:36:04 <vinci_> ah ok
09:36:18 <marina> i guess there is not:)
09:36:18 <jsled> they're just different subsystems. Scheduled transactions knows only about transactions, not any of the business-related code.
09:36:44 <jsled> marina: loan payments, but also recurring expenses or whatnot.
09:36:45 <vinci_> maybe there is already an issue filed in bugzilla for this?
09:36:53 <jsled> I believe so, yes.
09:37:19 <marina> cool!!
09:37:22 <jsled> But frankly, I don't care about it, and no one else has stepped up to do anything even close in years.
09:37:56 <marina> another question:) is there a way to have a list of all the customers? and the list of what they owe?
09:38:19 <jsled> I don't know.
09:38:34 <marina> i find gnu cash so much clutter less than quickbooks and for the same matter peachtree:)
09:40:30 <marina> thanks for you help. I will tweak around !
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09:47:09 <vinci_> jsled: I added something in FAQ http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Can_I_exchange_Gnucash_file_with_any_other_version_of_GnuCash.3F
09:47:16 <vinci_> maybe one can write that better
09:47:25 <vinci_> but thats what wikis are for. ;)
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09:53:48 <IanL> evening all,
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12:48:05 <joslwah> What's the procedure for getting a patch into the mainline, after posting to -devel?
12:48:22 <joslwah> and/or do patches get ack'ed or nack'ed after applying/non-applying?
13:02:26 <jsled> joslwah: unfortunateyl, the procedure is usually "wait". :( But, yes, patches are almost always [n]ack'ed after review/application.
13:07:30 <joslwah> jsled, Fine. Just wondering. I'm still waiting on gmail to fix themselves to get the hack to the list. It is sitting on my machine, getting unhappy that gmail won't authenticate me.
13:08:59 <joslwah> BTW, what are the chances you're going to convert to git. I see you already suggest it on the dev pages.
13:09:25 <jsled> low.
13:09:45 <jsled> many of the devs use it with git-svn, as you've seen.
13:11:11 <joslwah> Yep. I haven't worked out yet how to set up one that you can git pull from?
13:13:30 <jsled> Maybe in a couple of years of git becoming more commonplace, we'll want to migrate repos again. But we "just" switched to svn, and I'm not exactly sure what the big draw is a for project of our size, especially with git-svn.
13:14:31 <joslwah> Well, being much faster and better for branching/sharing personal branches around.
13:14:49 <joslwah> And I get the feeling that git it becoming the standard tool in the same way that cvs was many years ago.
13:15:21 <jsled> maybe. It's conceptual model is pretty hard, frankly.
13:16:18 <joslwah> I don't know. I started using it and it was easy fairly quickly.
13:16:24 <joslwah> But then I did research into concurrency!
13:18:34 <jsled> heh
13:18:49 <joslwah> Hmmm. It git-svn only for devs. I.e. you can't do it anonymously?
13:19:00 <jsled> hmm?
13:19:33 <joslwah> Nope. I was trying things and they weren't working, and left something behind.
13:19:41 <joslwah> What's a good revision number to start with?
13:20:18 <jsled> I did 16500 last night, which is old enough to get the creation of branches/2.2 and /gda-dev
13:20:21 <joslwah> Well, trying 16890, since that was a recent one warlord mentioned.
13:20:37 <jsled> but if you don't care about those, something more recent is good.
13:20:38 <joslwah> Yeah. I'm really just interested in now. 8-)
13:21:09 <joslwah> Only ~400 commits since 1.5.2?
13:21:20 <joslwah> Commits must get batched up a lot.
13:21:25 <jsled> 1.5.2?
13:21:41 <joslwah> Oh, sorry. Was git-1.5.2! 8-)
13:23:21 <joslwah> Hmmm. 80Mb from 16890.
13:30:03 <joslwah> Hmmm. Isn't there a better way to duplicate a date apart from g_date_set_julian(blah, g_date_get_julian(bleh))?
13:30:29 <joslwah> That is just ugly.
13:31:12 <jsled> To duplicate one? *blah = *bleh;
13:31:53 <joslwah> Naaah. That won't work. Since then if you change blah, you'll change bleh.
13:32:07 <joslwah> Can't you use memcpy?
13:32:13 <jsled> no... that would result in a field copy.
13:32:23 <jsled> (assuming both blah and bleh are GDate*'s)
13:32:26 <joslwah> Exactly. Isn't that what you want?
13:32:37 <jsled> No. *blah = *bleh; would be a field copy.
13:32:44 <jsled> Equivalent to memcpy.
13:32:59 <joslwah> Wait a minute. What does *blah = *bleh even mean?
13:33:12 <jsled> de-reference the pointers, then assign.
13:33:28 <joslwah> Isn't that just going to copy len(int) octets?
13:33:42 <jsled> nope.
13:33:44 <joslwah> Or does it do that smart thing and find the length of what is referenced?
13:34:06 <joslwah> (Long time since I seriously hacked C)
13:35:18 <joslwah> Anyway, dinner time for me. Not sure how far I'll get on the messing with recurrence stuff.
13:36:28 <joslwah> Biggest problem I can see is if next_date + n*business_days > next_date^2. Will mess up the recurrence code as is.
13:37:28 <jsled> http://paste.lisp.org/display/55150
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13:38:04 <jsled> I don't quite know what you said, there.
13:41:12 <joslwah> Let's be extreme and say that you want something to pay 30 business days after the first of every month.
13:41:37 <joslwah> Then "January's" is going to hit mid February, which is after "February's" base-date.
13:41:52 <joslwah> So, if you're not careful you'll end up skipping every other month's transactions.
13:42:00 <jsled> Ah.
13:42:16 <joslwah> Problem is that you can't always uniquely rewind, since
13:42:28 <joslwah> ... because of weekends. Now, gotta dash.
13:42:33 <jsled> take care
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14:59:59 <Dave_is_sexy> Hi guys. Is it possible to quickly link a single transaction in my current (checking) account to an imported bill from some shopping? The only way I can see is manually type each one into the split transaction. I don't want to have to do that all the time
15:02:02 <jsled> Type each one what?
15:02:19 <jsled> If you've import the transaction, just use that one.
15:02:53 <jsled> s/import/imported/
15:04:28 <Dave_is_sexy> but it imports as many seperate transactions
15:05:00 <Dave_is_sexy> If I could import the list as a division of one transaction that would be perfect
15:05:35 <jsled> I'm hard-pressed to understand something that imports as multiple transactions being appropriate as splits.
15:05:39 <jsled> Can you give an example?
15:07:44 <Dave_is_sexy> Yeah. Bank statement says "£X on grocery shopping". Shopping bill says "£0.5 on Y, £0.5 on Z, total is £X". So I thought I could match it up
15:07:45 <jsled> Oh, but IIRC you had some custom CSV thing that you maybe made into QIF, which is going to make whatever the quantum of CSV rows into QIF Transactions.
15:07:53 <jsled> Ah.
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15:08:06 <jsled> Yeah, no. The importer only works in Transactions, not splits.
15:08:27 <jsled> I manually break my receipt out into splits in GnuCash when I enter them.
15:08:52 <jsled> It's painful. Auto-completion helps a bit, but it's definitely made me want to formalize the notion of "template" transactions.
15:08:59 <Dave_is_sexy> Hmm. And we can't paste...
15:09:32 <jsled> You should be able to cut/copy/paste Transactions and Splits, but not a Transaction *as* a Split, no. :(
15:09:50 <Dave_is_sexy> and not from Calc to Gnucash
15:09:58 <Dave_is_sexy> that would be a nice feature
15:10:05 <jsled> true.
15:10:57 <Dave_is_sexy> Oh, can I use a script to make a correctly formatted Gnucash native file?
15:11:51 <jsled> abstractly? sure. If you generate correct gnucash xml, then gnucash will correctly read it. :)
15:13:47 <Dave_is_sexy> OK... maybe i'll look into that :)
15:16:34 <joslwah> Yeah, but if you get it wrong......
15:17:57 <Dave_is_sexy> Then I will notice when I check :)
15:19:52 <joslwah> While I'm thinking about planning recurrence stuff; how much desire is there for "x business days before <position in week/month/year etc.>"?
15:20:51 <jsled> I don't know if I've heard that desired as such, but if you find it useful, scratch away! :)
15:21:37 <joslwah> I noticed one reference in a bug. But it makes it _much_ harder.
15:22:08 <joslwah> Problem is that reference date may be x. base-date may be x+3, but final date is x-2.
15:22:23 <joslwah> So, you end up with the wrong occurence, or missing one.
15:23:17 <joslwah> Actually, we're going to get into that sort of problem anyway. We may be on reference date x, but base-date x-2 and final date being x+3, so you want to find it, but you'll miss it.
15:23:25 <joslwah> Uggg. This is going to get really ugly.
15:25:34 <joslwah> I'm getting the nasty feeling that doing this requires rewriting the whole recurrence framework.
15:26:00 <joslwah> Are there any other deficencies with recurrence stuff while I'm looking at this?
15:27:48 <jsled> No.
15:28:24 <jsled> Well, none that jump to mind, anyways.
15:29:07 <joslwah> How difficult is it to jump between the guile and the C?
15:29:30 <jsled> to call from scheme to C, the C must be wrapped by swig.
15:29:45 <jsled> That's often just adding the prototype of the function to the swig .i file and re-building.
15:29:57 <joslwah> How difficult is it to go the other way?
15:30:07 <joslwah> Where are the swig .i files kept?
15:30:17 <jsled> To call from C to guile is usually something like SCM result = scm_call_0(scm_eval("gnc:function"));
15:30:40 <jsled> find src -iname '*.i'; :)
15:30:43 <joslwah> O.k. So, in theory not that hard?
15:30:53 <joslwah> Yeah. I was about to do that.
15:30:57 <jsled> no. But why do you ask?
15:31:08 <jsled> The .i files are alongside the sources in the core/wrapped dirs.
15:31:18 <jsled> src/engine/ src/app-utils/ &c.
15:32:00 <joslwah> Found them.
15:32:46 <joslwah> Hmmmm. This could be more interesting than I'd hoped.
15:32:52 <jsled> Please don't tell me you want to re-write Recurrences in scheme... :/
15:35:03 <joslwah> Why not?
15:35:19 <joslwah> I'm considering the options at the moment.
15:35:36 <jsled> It'd be better if gnucash were in one language, not two.
15:35:50 <jsled> Thus, we should work to minimize scheme, not increase its prominence.
15:35:54 <joslwah> And you're on the C side?
15:36:06 <joslwah> Why go that way, rather than the other?
15:36:11 <jsled> The codebase is like 90% C.
15:36:15 <joslwah> But I'll take your view on it anyway.
15:36:27 <joslwah> I'm trying to fix things, not make them worse for maintainence.
15:36:34 <jsled> If the scales were the other way, I'd happily push for all-scheme.
15:36:51 <jsled> (well, maybe. :)
15:37:05 <jsled> I'd rather the code base was any high-level language besides C.
15:37:10 <jsled> (except maybe perl)
15:37:11 <joslwah> Being able to edit the report stuff without needing a recompile is nice.
15:37:28 <jsled> True. I don't think the reports should be in C.
15:37:28 <joslwah> perl isn't that high level. And for bigger projects isn't great.
15:37:35 <jsled> Right.
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15:38:17 <jsled> But I'd also rather see the reports conceptualized a bit differently than now.
15:38:29 <joslwah> Why?
15:38:42 <jsled> They mix reporting and formatting a bit too much.
15:38:53 <jsled> Their definition is a bit too procedural, rather than declarative.
15:38:55 <joslwah> You mean processing and displaying?
15:39:21 <jsled> yes. They should be two very discrete steps. And the display should be template-based.
15:39:33 <jsled> The infrastructural code around them is messy.
15:39:46 <joslwah> Yeah, I could see it being better to separate it out into bar, pie and scatter (plus possibly others) and then have one set of things that generates the values, and one that displays. Plus a third that deals with options.
15:40:29 <joslwah> It shouldn't be too hard to form an API for the display side.
15:40:33 <jsled> yup.
15:40:54 <joslwah> But that is another project.
15:40:55 <jsled> well, HTML is a pretty good API. :)
15:40:58 <jsled> true.
15:40:59 <joslwah> I'd prefer to get one sorted first.
15:41:37 <joslwah> And the recurrence stuff is somewhat more interesting; at least in terms of planning it out.
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16:13:17 <jsled> joslwah: btw, what were you mentioning with gmail, earlier? Are you unable to post something to the mailing list, or?
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16:46:27 <joslwah> jsled, I'm unable to post something to the mailing list, but the problem is between my machine and gmail, not beyond.
16:46:55 <joslwah> It looks like gmail is being unfriendly and giving me a temporary error for over 48hours!
16:47:07 <joslwah> Now, having answered that, I'd better go.
16:47:18 <joslwah> Sorry for not waiting for a reply.
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17:53:38 <jsled> gncbot: tell cstim, could you please give me the rundown of how the interaction between the clones and the master repo is suppsoed to work (c.f. <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Git>). Is it: cd trunk; git commit; git push; cd ../all; git-svn dcommit; cd ../trunk; git pull; ?
17:53:38 <gncbot> jsled: The operation succeeded.
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18:09:53 <jsled> Oh man. I've munged my git setup, and now I can't commit.
18:16:12 <jsled> hmm. Some `git reset --hard HEAD~1`s later, and things appear better.
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18:35:28 <andrewsw> jsled: are you all sorted with git there?
18:35:51 <jsled> somewhat. Still trying to understand how the cloned repos and the "all" repo interact.
18:36:12 <jsled> It looks like doing 'git pull' is the problem, since it does a master-branch merge that was the problem.
18:36:19 <andrewsw> huh. what the heck is the "all" repo?
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18:36:32 <jsled> As per <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Git>.
18:36:43 <andrewsw> I use git pull to pull from my master on desktop to clones on laptop
18:37:14 <andrewsw> OIC. it's for the whole tree.
18:37:27 <jsled> It's the git-svn-managed repo over multiple branches. The clones are to isolate build cruft.
18:37:28 <andrewsw> I only have trunk checked out.
18:37:53 <jsled> Right, I think that's part of what I'm not getting, is something about the branches.
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18:38:06 <andrewsw> I occaisionally stuff-it and have to reset --hard a couple times to get it sorted as well.
18:39:24 <Dave_is_sexy> Hi guys. I don't know if it's a touch sad to have gotten addicted to an accounting program as I have, but anyway... lol, is it possible to see all transactions which are common to 2 accounts?
18:41:35 <jsled> It should be, but it's not working as I'd expect.
18:41:48 <jsled> Oh, right.
18:42:02 <jsled> Because it's a damn Split search, not a Transaction search.
18:43:14 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: so, the Transaction Report can do this.
18:43:17 <Dave_is_sexy> Hmm. This evening I've found four occasions where I've been charged more than once for the same thing. They are all getting angry phone calls tomorrow.
18:43:39 <Dave_is_sexy> i can't get the reports to be useful. They just do random things
18:44:10 <jsled> In the Accounts panel, select the report account, then the other as the Filter account, then Filter type = Include […], then mkae the date range as you like in the General tab (or maybe the defaults are fine).
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18:47:17 <andrewsw_> wow! I've never lost a connection like that...
18:47:34 <andrewsw_> anyway, gotta go.
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18:48:54 <andrewsw> @op
18:48:55 *** gncbot sets mode: +o andrewsw
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18:49:03 <andrewsw-afk> he he he
18:58:02 <jsled> andrewsw-afk: around?
18:58:11 <andrewsw-afk> still yes
18:58:25 <andrewsw-afk> I just found a mistake in all my w-2s that are already in the mail
18:58:25 <jsled> These bug/patches from Charles Day ... I'm applying them now. Should I not?
18:58:31 <jsled> Oh. :(
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18:58:52 <andrewsw> which ones in particular?
18:58:59 <jsled> Specifically: <http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=510940>, <http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=512497>, <http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=510962>
18:59:03 <jsled> They all seem pretty specific.
18:59:51 <jsled> And I guess <http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511681>
19:00:14 <jsled> (though that's someone else's, and just ignoring "G" lines.)
19:00:54 <andrewsw> alright, i'm looking at them
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19:03:48 <andrewsw> jsled: his stuff looks pretty good to me. ANd he's arguably done more qif work than anyone in recent history.
19:03:57 <jsled> right.
19:04:01 <andrewsw> I know that warlord has praised his work as well.
19:04:16 <jsled> Okay, I'll keep 'em coming, and thank him on -devel.
19:04:26 <andrewsw> I don't know the qif importer, but his past history with it is good, so on reputation I'd take them.
19:04:41 <andrewsw> I don't know about BP though, and they should be reviewed for that.
19:05:33 <jsled> I've just marked them for BP (`git rebase -i HEAD~3` continues to be awesome :), as I think they're all good incremental fixes.
19:05:50 <jsled> I mean, they all appear to be.
19:06:03 <andrewsw> yeah, I agree. He's keeping it nice and tight.
19:06:19 <andrewsw> He deserve commit more than I do ;)
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19:10:18 <andrewsw> BTW, it turns out I don't hate java...
19:10:30 <jsled> oh? Heh.
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19:11:05 <andrewsw> I was dreading it, but after moving up to a higher level class I'm actually enjoying it.
19:13:09 <jsled> yeah, java's not an interesting or even good language, but it's not necessarily bad.
19:13:39 <andrewsw> Its so well documented that it's a pretty good teaching language.
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19:13:41 <jsled> It's just … boring. Verbose. Lacking some really useful concepts.
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19:15:02 <andrewsw> yeah, I agree with that.
19:15:45 <andrewsw> alright, I really gotta run. later jsled
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19:15:51 <jsled> lates! :)
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22:34:24 <gregg> Is there a "roadmap" for post 2.2.3 feature set posted somewhere?
22:38:17 <andrewsw-afk> gregg: I don't think so, but I can tell you that 2.4 will likely support database backends. And I don't know the state of the register rewrite, but its possible that could happen to.
22:38:27 <andrewsw-afk> don't hold me to any of that though
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22:39:33 <gregg> Do you know if there are any plans to beef up online banking (to support ofx bill pay, e.g.)?
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23:45:00 <jsled> gregg: I don't think anyone's said they're working on that, no.