2007-12-04 GnuCash IRC logs
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06:26:18 <dan__t> 'morning, all.
06:26:55 <dan__t> I was wondering if anyone here uses GNUCash as a means to keep track of things like hours, time, billable clients etc etc while doing service consulting?
06:26:55 <dan__t> Just wanted to hear a bit about how people might use it in that application, if at all.
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09:25:49 <warlord> dan__t: I use gnotime for that.
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11:45:56 <veruus> morning
11:48:50 <jsled> good morning.
11:49:44 <warlord> * waves *
11:57:09 <dan__t> That's kinda neat, warlord. Never seen that app before.
11:57:34 <warlord> you're welcome, dan__t
11:57:43 <dan__t> Yep, thanks.
11:57:56 <dan__t> (that was implied)
11:58:03 <warlord> i know
11:58:08 <warlord> :)
12:00:30 <dan__t> Alright, gotta get to work.
12:00:37 <dan__t> Thanks again.
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12:06:58 <veruus> is there a specific "notes" section that you can fill in for transactions?
12:07:50 <jsled> Yes, apart from the memo, if you turn on "double-line"
12:08:27 <jsled> (View > Double Line)
12:09:06 <veruus> ah
12:09:19 <veruus> "Action"?
12:09:24 <warlord> no... "Notes"
12:09:29 <veruus> o, next to it
12:09:41 <veruus> yeah, my cursor covered that up
12:09:42 <veruus> :)
12:09:47 <veruus> nice
12:11:27 <andrewsw> mornin'
12:12:19 <andrewsw> does anyone know what happened to Neil Williams and his cashutils stuff?
12:12:35 <warlord> He's probably working on it off in QofLand
12:13:10 <andrewsw> ah. someone was asking about Pilot -> gnc stuff on deb-user.
12:13:36 <warlord> weird place to ask about it
12:14:04 <andrewsw> wasn't specific. just looking for some form of pilot -> financial app rig.
12:14:26 <andrewsw> I actually brought up gnc and whatever Neil had been doing.
12:14:44 <jsled> yeah, it never really went anywhere, IIRC.
12:15:18 <warlord> Having a commandline UI is still an interesting project, but I still believe it should be done in the gnucash tree, not outside it.
12:15:40 <andrewsw> yeah. it seems to be a problem that is largely solved by downloading from banks.
12:15:53 <andrewsw> and yes, CLI would be cool.
12:16:51 <warlord> I've thought about integrating cashutil into gnucash's tree. then I realize there are many other things I'd rather be doing/working on.
12:17:12 <andrewsw> actually, what would be cool is some form of gtk -> ncurses wrapper so that everyone gets a console based interface independent of their actual project.
12:17:28 <warlord> ewww curses
12:17:46 <andrewsw> yeah. well something anyway. just nice ascii art would be cool.
12:18:28 <warlord> I wonder if there's an Atk ascii output frontend?
12:19:15 <andrewsw> heh. first google hit on atk is "advanced weapon and space systems"
12:19:45 <andrewsw> guess I wasn't feeling lucky, punk
12:19:51 <warlord> LOL
12:20:06 <warlord> try "atk linux"
12:24:03 <andrewsw> not promising. shrug.
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12:27:48 <jose> Hi all
12:28:01 <andrewsw> Hi Jose
12:28:03 <jose> anyone can help me?
12:28:13 <andrewsw> only if you ask a question.
12:28:23 <jose> I have a problem trying to update my quotes
12:29:39 <andrewsw> jose: what is your question.
12:29:59 <jose> To be precise... Where do I tell gnucash which is my quote source?
12:31:30 <jose> When I run from command line the following script:
12:31:39 <jose> gnc-fq-dump yahoo ACS.MC
12:31:44 <jose> I get the expected answer
12:32:14 <jose> However, when I try to update the same quote (ACS.MC) from gnucash, it hangs for a minute and then it complains that this quote cannot be found
12:32:44 <andrewsw> did you select a price source in the "Edit Account" dialog?
12:32:46 <warlord> jose: in the security editor
12:33:02 * andrewsw doesn't use quotes... :(
12:33:30 <jose> I guess that it is a problem of configuration of gnucash, but I'm not sure whether it is a proxy issue
12:33:40 <jose> security editor?
12:34:05 <warlord> under Tools
12:34:08 <jose> How can i access to the security editor? I searched in Edit->Options
12:34:24 <andrewsw> Tools -> Security Editor
12:34:45 <jose> Wait a minute, I'll restart gnucash using english locale, only to be sure we are looking the same strings
12:35:52 <jose> Aha, Ok, I can see it now
12:35:54 <andrewsw> Tools -> Security Editor. select ACS.MC, click Edit and enter a price source.
12:36:06 <jose> yes, thank you very much!
12:36:20 <jose> however, I can see that the predefined price source is yahoo
12:36:26 <jose> the same I used from the command line
12:36:33 <jose> so apparently it is a proxy issue?
12:36:46 <jose> does gnucash honours the http_proxy variable?
12:36:51 <jose> or the gnome proxy settings?
12:39:05 <jose> I just tried to obtain prices for some of my securities from command line
12:39:18 <andrewsw> on my system, `HTTP_PROXY=127.0.0.1 gnucash` causes price quotes to fail. so apparently it does honor that
12:39:32 <jose> hmm
12:39:47 <andrewsw> don't know about gnome proxy settings as I don't use gnome.
12:39:56 <jose> i can obtain prices from command line, with a command like
12:39:58 <jose> gnc-fq-dump yahoo_europe CELR.MC
12:40:14 <jose> however, the same security cannot be updated from inside gnucash
12:40:23 <andrewsw> how do you start gnucash?
12:40:48 <warlord> jose: No, F::Q does not honor the proxy
12:40:54 <jose> I tried starting it from the gnome menu, and also from command line, but I obtain the same result
12:41:13 <jose> warlord, however, when I use gnc-fq-dump from command line, I get answers
12:42:35 <warlord> Do you get answers when you use gnc-fq-helper from the command line?
12:42:50 <jose> yes, I told that
12:42:58 <jose> for example
12:43:00 <jose> gnc-fq-dump yahoo_europe CELR.MC
12:43:20 <jose> I tried with diferent symbols in my portfolio, and I got answers for all of them
12:43:47 <jose> however, using the price editor and pushing the "Get Quotes" button, I did not get any answer
12:44:10 <andrewsw> is HTTP_PROXY set in your terminal?
12:44:13 <jose> gnucash "hangs", and later, it awakes and shows an error dialog
12:44:20 <jose> yes, i tried even the command:
12:44:33 <jose> HTTP_PROXY=http://proxy.uniovi.es:8888 gnucash
12:44:49 <jose> and also with http_proxy (lowercase)
12:45:58 <warlord> I'm 99% sure that it does NOT honor the proxy
12:46:39 <jose> do you refer to gnucash or to F::Q?
12:46:49 <jsled> I'd imagine the perl http library would. I wonder if we don't preserve the environment when calling to gnc-fq-helper or something...
12:47:02 <jose> apparently the comando gnc-fq-dump does honour it
12:47:11 <jose> (comando->command)
12:47:26 <warlord> jose: but that command is irrelevant. please test gnc-fq-helper
12:47:36 <jose> which syntax? the same?
12:47:39 <warlord> no.
12:47:44 <warlord> See the mailing list archives.
12:48:55 <jsled> or just look at the contents/comments at the top of gnc-fq-helper
12:50:20 <jsled> basically: echo -ne "(yahoo_europe \"CELR.MC\") | gnc-fq-helper
12:50:40 <jsled> which, for me, results in a bunch of perl warnings from F::Q, then (#f).
12:51:03 <jose> me too
12:51:14 <jose> however (yahoo "ACS.MC") does give the right answer
12:51:28 <jose> apparently yahoo_europe is not supported (?)
12:52:03 <jose> (yahoo "ACS.MC")
12:52:05 <jose> (("ACS.MC" (symbol . "ACS.MC") (gnc:time-no-zone . "2007-12-04 11:36:00") (last . 43.32) (currency . "EUR")))
12:52:10 <jose> That's what I got
12:52:13 <jsled> jose, see http://pastebin.ca/805791
12:52:41 <jsled> In particular, the comment at the top of the gnc-fq-dump call, and the subsequent successful gnc-fq-helper call...
12:54:01 <jose> Ok. You are right, I choose a bad example. Please, try instead ACS.MC
12:54:34 <jsled> ACS.MC works for me, though with the same warnings.
12:54:43 <jsled> (on the command line, that is, using gnc-fq-helper)
12:54:55 <warlord> ACS.MC works for me from yahoo
12:55:08 <jose> http://pastebin.ca/805797
12:55:09 <warlord> Not for "yahoo_europe", tho.
12:55:32 <jose> it gives an answer (without warnings) using gnc-fq-dump
12:55:48 <jose> but it gives some errors and then the answer using gnc-fq-helper
12:56:03 <jose> anyway, it apparently uses the proxy settings
12:56:52 <jose> and, using yahoo instead of yahoo_europe, the warnings dissappear
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12:57:01 <jsled> (yahoo_europe "ACS.MC") works for me...
12:57:33 <warlord> Yes, I get similar warnings with -helper and yahoo_europe
12:57:42 <andrewsw> HTTP_PROXY is definitely honored by gnucash. quotes work without it and fail with it in my normal non-proxy configuration.
12:58:14 <jsled> So, is it just the CELR.MC -> LOR.MC issue?
12:59:00 <jose> no, these are just examples
12:59:14 <jose> using gnucash none of my securities is updates
12:59:16 <jose> updated
12:59:32 <jose> however, using gnc-*, most of them are
12:59:33 <jsled> Is anything printed to the terminal or /tmp/gnucash.trace when you see the error?
12:59:49 <jose> there is an issue which could be the key
13:00:11 <jose> gnucash shows the following error in an alert box
13:00:20 <jose> Unable to retrieve quotes for these items:
13:00:20 <jose> NASDAQ:ADZ.MC
13:00:21 <jose> NASDAQ:ENAG.MC
13:00:22 <jose> NASDAQ:IBLA.MC
13:00:23 <jose> ...
13:00:42 <jose> hey! forgive me...
13:00:54 <jose> apparently some of the quotes got updated
13:01:53 <andrewsw> I'm off. good luck jose. See you all later.
13:01:57 <jose> for example the one named "ACS.MC" we used in the example before
13:02:12 <jose> however, some other still produce errors
13:02:20 <jose> see you andrewsw, thank you for your time
13:02:41 <jose> for example, ADZ.MC cannot get updated from gnucash
13:02:56 <jose> and it also produces errors from gnc-fq-helper
13:03:11 <jose> when using yahoo_europe as source (but it is fine using yahoo)
13:03:29 <warlord> well, that would imply that you hsould just use yahoo, no?
13:03:54 <jose> nevertheless, when using gnc-fq-dump (even with yahoo_europe) I get the right answer
13:04:03 <jose> well, warlord, I guess I'll do that
13:04:13 <jose> I was only trying to understand...
13:04:27 <warlord> those perl warnings might get in the way.
13:04:45 <warlord> and, as I said, -dump doesn't matter. it's only -helper that matters.
13:05:00 <jose> anyway, thank you all very much. You gave me the cue of the "Security Editor" to set the source
13:05:21 <warlord> you're welcome.
13:05:30 <jose> now I'll have to change yahoo_europe to yahoo for all my quotes, and hope that this works
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13:09:01 <jose> I worked! So it was after all an issue of the stock sources
13:09:29 <jose> I'm happy it had nothing to do with proxy settings
13:09:51 <jose> thanks again. See ya!
13:10:46 <warlord> congrats
13:12:21 <jose> (btw, I asked for help in this channel, following the suggestion of the gnucash manual, on the very issue of getting stock prices online, great support :-)
13:12:43 <warlord> :-D
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14:20:26 <cstim> hi
14:20:59 <cstim> warlord: cute story about that tech support guy in the hotel :-)
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14:23:56 <warlord> cstim: thanks. I enjoyed it.
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14:41:36 <jsled> So, what do we think about the options for the "open source" text? I'm thinking "FOSS Accounting Software".
14:41:46 <jsled> (Also, changing the logo/graphic from "finance" to "accounting".)
14:42:27 <jsled> I guess the other option is "Free Accounting Software".
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14:56:40 <cstim> To me, "Free Accounting Software" would be fine as well.
14:57:52 <cstim> yeah, following along what Thomas Buschnell said last year, I think "Free Accounting Software" would be ok as well.
14:58:31 <warlord> Ahh.. Yeah, that would work.
14:58:45 <jsled> "Free", then? Not "FOSS" or "FLOSS"?
14:59:05 <cstim> I'd prefer "Free" over "FOSS" or "FLOSS", yes.
14:59:14 <warlord> How about "Free Open Source"
14:59:20 <cstim> because that's at least understandable by normal people.
14:59:52 <warlord> yeah, my mom would have no idea what FOSS meant. And for FLOSS would wonder what the software had to do with her teeth.
15:00:18 <jsled> fair enough.
15:01:49 <warlord> I'm happy adding the word "Free" in the page title and description(s)
15:02:17 <cstim> who's going to change the graphics right next to the logo? jsled?
15:02:32 <jsled> I was planning on it, but not until later today.
15:02:36 <cstim> sure
15:03:11 <cstim> I'd also vote for changing all the visible news items on the page accordingly, because otherwise we will get bugged about "that one open source at the bottom of the page".
15:03:12 <jsled> And, I guess, the historical news items.
15:03:19 <cstim> yes
15:03:20 <jsled> Heh.
15:03:41 <jsled> Yeah, plus I think common practice is to just copy the last one as a template for new releases, so that effectively changes the template.
15:04:01 <cstim> How do we switch news items from the front page to the "older news" page?
15:04:31 <jsled> It's length based, IIRC. The first 10 are on the front page, and all of them are on "older news".
15:04:33 <warlord> it's done automagically
15:04:36 <jsled> It's just a constant in the included PHP script.
15:05:10 <cstim> oh, ok. Well, personally I think I'd prefer 7 instead of 10, but it doesn't really matter anyway :-)
15:05:12 <warlord> what would be nice is to change the news to only display the title and first, say, 5-7 lines of a news item and then a 'more...' link.
15:05:55 <warlord> maybe.
15:06:01 <cstim> warlord: well, there are counter-arguments to those as well. Having the full text on the same page makes quick browsing much more convenient. I think the current way is just fine.
15:06:26 <warlord> well, the main issue is that the announcments are so fricking huge....
15:06:37 <cstim> and so redundant...
15:06:45 <cstim> (intentionally)
15:07:10 <warlord> I think the redundancy is fine for the email announcement. I think it's overkill and useless for the web-page news item
15:08:09 <cstim> jsled: In other news: Have you been able to check out the GPLv3 more closely? I think sooner or later we will be asked whether we plan to be GPLv2-only or GPLv2 plus GPLv3.
15:08:54 <cstim> warlord: OTOH I think andi5 already left out the redundancy on the web page for the 2.2.1 announcement.
15:09:05 <warlord> did he?
15:09:20 <jsled> cstim: I spent a couple of hours with draft2, but haven't read the final version. I did notice the Licensing wiki page ... in what sense might they be considered incompatible?
15:09:24 <cstim> (BTW we have 70,000 downloads of the windows binary on sf.)
15:09:33 <warlord> Hmm, I guess he did
15:09:47 * warlord wonders when it will be time for 2.2.2
15:10:47 <jsled> Oh, the idea is that libraries will be v3, and thus incompatible? Hmmm.
15:10:48 <cstim> jsled: people say that you can't ship a Gpl2-only-library with a Gpl3-only-app because redistributing would require re-licensing one under the other license.
15:10:55 <cstim> or vice versa.
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15:11:23 <cstim> and some prominent libraries prominently switched to gpl3-only. gettext, for example.
15:11:32 <cstim> (IIRC)
15:11:55 <jsled> I don't see how, independent of any other licensing constraints that the GPLv3 might be compatible with that v2 is not.
15:12:06 <jsled> (e.g., advertising clauses)
15:12:42 <cstim> hm...
15:12:56 <cstim> you mean, GPL3 is allowed to be shipped with GPLv2?
15:13:04 <cstim> but probably not the other way round.
15:14:42 <jsled> I don't see how the license version number alone matters either way, *by itself*.
15:15:33 <cstim> *I* don't see a problem there for myself. However, I can easiy imagine *someone* *will* see a problem.
15:16:34 <cstim> Hence, I'd just thought it would be good to make up our mind about whether we intentionally redistribute our source code as GPLv3 additionally, or stick to GPLv2-only (with many "or any later version" parts, though)
15:17:17 <jsled> That's true, especially w.r.t. the openssl issue.
15:17:23 <warlord> Huh, something is busted with bugzilla.
15:17:55 <jsled> *gasp* Would that mean that debian could actually ship hbci-enabled gnucash!?! :)
15:18:11 <cstim> jsled: yes, exactly.
15:19:06 <cstim> well, it would be up to them to dig up another alleged incompatibility, but indeed, the openssl advertising clause would *not* be a problem with a GPlv3'ed gnucash.
15:19:28 <cstim> note that this would require our whole library chain to be "compatible" to GPLv3.
15:19:37 <cstim> which probably isn't the case, but I haven't checked.
15:20:47 <cstim> As for GPLv2 vs GPLv3 incompatibility: I found a German news article which just says "due to the copyleft clause in both licenses, some GPLv2-only code cannot be used with GPLv3 code for a new program."
15:22:51 <jsled> I'm not sure what that means. The term "copyleft" only appears once in the V3 text (in the first sentence of the preamble).
15:25:15 <cstim> I think it's pretty clear: You have GPLv2-only code. This license forces you to redistribute derivative works under GPLv2-only as well. If you combine this with GPLv3(-only) code, that code's license forces you to redistribute derivative works under GPLv3(-only). You can't fulfil both requirements. Hence, incompatibility.
15:26:52 <cstim> however, all this doesn't apply for *L*GPL libraries anyway.
15:27:44 <warlord> ahh, bugzilla is back
15:28:27 <jsled> cstim: I see.
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15:43:37 <cstim> jsled: re incompatibilities: also, GPLv3 places further restrictions on the redistributed software (e.g. patent deals restriction) and GPLv2 explicitly does not allow further restrictions, so you're not allowed to redistribute GPLv2-only code in a GPLv3-only work.
15:44:00 <jsled> right.
15:44:11 <cstim> And in the other direction the GPLv2 does not contain those new restrictions, hence it's not the same terms and you can't redistribute GPLv3-only code in a GPLv2-only work.
15:48:06 <cstim> As for gnucash: A quick check through README.dependencies mentions only LGPL-licensed libraries, except for (huh) libofx, which is GPLv2-or-later.
15:48:58 <cstim> Sounds to me that if we license gnucash under GPLv3 as well, we are actually allowed to double-license gnucash as GPLv2 and v3 for now. (Which would make the openssl issue vanish.)
15:49:47 <cstim> hm.... why did Thomas Buschnell insist on the fact that adding the openssl exception *to gnucash* would not be sufficient here?
15:49:55 <cstim> (for hbci in Debian, that is)
15:51:54 <cstim> ah. the openssl exception would have to be granted by *all* copyright holders in gnucash, which is impossible. But double-licensing with GPLv3 only requires consent from those who explicitly contributed GPLv2-only code, which are probably only those people who are still around and can be asked for.
15:53:02 * fell will dream of a world without lawywers. Good night.
15:53:10 <cstim> good night :-)
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17:52:04 <andrewsw> I'm trying to figure out how to create local branches in svn. I keep seeing reference to svk, but no clear way to do it in svn directly. Anyone have a clue?
17:52:17 <warlord> You can't in SVN.
17:52:30 <andrewsw> no wonder I can't find it ;)
17:52:36 <warlord> You need either SVK or git-svn or something where you actually have a local depot/repository
17:53:25 <andrewsw> okay, thanks.
17:53:43 <warlord> you're welcome
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19:56:22 <andrewsw> I've been playing with git-svn and am not having luck just getting a plain 'ol diff suitable for submitting patches.
19:56:49 <andrewsw> I can get lovely "complete with headers" email patches, but not just a plain ol' unified diff. anyone have insight?
19:59:25 <warlord> um.. I dont use git.
20:00:33 <chris> andrewsw: git-diff
20:02:03 <andrewsw> chris: yeah that doesn't work in this context, that i can see. I'm trying to make local revisions to a gnucash svn checkout. but there is something fundamental I'm missing.
20:05:53 <warlord> I could give you the svk commands, but not the git commands.
20:06:39 <chris> git-diff with no args show the difference between the current HEAD and your local copy.
20:07:09 <warlord> i think he wants the diffs between a local branch and the upstream mirror
20:07:44 <andrewsw> I've created a local mirror of gnucash svn using git-svn init && git-svn fetch http://svn....
20:08:15 <andrewsw> then I checked out a branch: git checkout -b adv-port
20:08:31 <andrewsw> made some changes and git commit'ed the changes.
20:09:04 <andrewsw> I can git format-patch -1 to get a lovely patch file (diff --git style) but it includes all these mail headers and gobbledy-gook. bleh.
20:11:35 <andrewsw> If you guys don't care that much what the headers on the patch looks like (obviously I'd strip the email headers) then great.
20:11:48 <andrewsw> but those headers are slightly different from an svn diff.
20:11:51 <warlord> I dont particular care.
20:12:47 <andrewsw> of course, I'm only playing at the moment, and might switch over to try svk...
20:13:12 <warlord> svk still has its issues, but it looks much more like svn than git.
20:13:18 <andrewsw> either way... the wife beckons with sufficient vigor that I *must* go yet again.
20:13:27 <andrewsw> I"ll check it out and see if it works more to my liking.
20:13:27 <warlord> * waves *
20:13:31 <jsled> hhe.
20:16:42 <andrewsw> back. not a crisis after all.
20:16:48 <warlord> heh
20:16:58 <andrewsw> warlord: are you getting pounded by hurricane force winds there?
20:17:15 <warlord> No clue.. I'm inside.
20:17:33 <andrewsw> my dad lives on the coast and they had 150mph... weee...
20:17:56 <warlord> weather.com reports 10mph
20:18:14 <andrewsw> well that's no fun.
20:18:22 <warlord> Neither is 150mph
20:18:43 <warlord> that's like Cat-4 winds
20:18:57 <chris> andrewsw: git-diff git-svn
20:19:06 <andrewsw> apparently its quite common (relatively speaking) where he is.
20:19:36 <andrewsw> chris: w00t!! lookey that!
20:22:59 <andrewsw> its still a git-style diff, but it's perfect. thanks.
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