2007-10-21 GnuCash IRC logs

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02:09:55 <Sathamot1> XiXaQ: I think that split view can be a bit confusing sometimes.. for example, when I "close" the split view and use the single-line view, I sometimes see the same split transaction on two or more lines
02:10:45 <Sathamot1> there's probably some good reason for that, but it seems confusing :)
02:14:49 <Sathamot1> (by single line view I mean Basic Ledger)
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02:50:33 <Gokee2> jsled, But getting rid of .gconf/ and .gconfd/ (sorry about the misspelling last time I did not have the name in front of me) should do it? Why not? Does that not kill all settings?
02:51:06 <Gokee2> (Not that it really matters as I did new something after I could not get it to work the first time)
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05:57:14 <erik> Any dutch users around?
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06:04:11 <Jaran> if it aint dutch it aint much? ;)
06:18:01 <erik> Just wanted to know if someone used gnucash in combination with the Postbank (dutch bank), esspecially the import functionality
07:01:51 <XiXaQ> hehe
07:04:10 <XiXaQ> Sathamot1, does the same thing happen if you don't use the editor, but instead enter the values directly into the lines?
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09:35:33 <warlord> Sathamot1: Thats because you've specified multiple splits into the current account register. The register shows SPLITS, not Transactions... So if you have a transaction with multiple splits into one account, then that account register will show that transaction multiple times.
09:36:26 <warlord> XiXaQ: what's your problem with entering split transactions? The docs are very clear on how to do it, so.... what issue are you having?
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09:38:07 <warlord> XiXaQ: Asset:Checking would be an account. If the account doesn't already exist then just type it in and when you tab out of the account/transfer cell it will pop up a dialog to let you create it.
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10:12:36 <XiXaQ> warlord, I have no experience with accounting, and it's not very clear. When I do as I'm told in 4.2.1, then the description I entered is pushed down to the second line, but the rest of the transaction is at the first row.
10:12:54 <XiXaQ> that's ok, I can move that description manually afterwards.
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10:18:48 <XiXaQ> in 4.2.2, I'm told to enter the salary into Accounts:checking because of a bug that needs the first line to be the actual account. But where do I take the money from?
10:20:55 <warlord> Income:Salary?
10:20:55 <XiXaQ> when I open the transaction window and select to Accounts:checking, I get a dialog box saying «You can't transfer from and to the same account!», which seems very obvious to me.
10:20:59 <XiXaQ> ok.
10:21:09 <warlord> Right....
10:21:30 <warlord> Gnucash tracks money flow. Each transaction shows the flow from one place to another.
10:21:44 <warlord> "Income" is the magic "source", and "Expense" is the magic "sink"
10:21:44 <XiXaQ> but then I withdraw more from Income:salary than I put into the other accounts?
10:22:14 <warlord> No.. Look at the Salary example in the docs.
10:22:19 <XiXaQ> I am.
10:23:07 <warlord> Right, so it would be something like: $1000 from Salary, then $600 to Checking, $250 to Expenses:Federal Taxes, $100 to Expenses:State Taxes, $50 to Expenses:FICA...
10:23:33 <XiXaQ> it doesn't save what I do in the transfer dialog...
10:24:38 <warlord> You can't create a split transaction from the transfer dialog.
10:24:53 <warlord> what do you mean, "doesn't save what you do"?
10:28:14 <XiXaQ> well, everything is moved around. The description on the second line is moved to the first line, the description from the first line is moved to the third line, and the new transaction is on the second line..
10:28:46 <warlord> Can you show me a screen shot?
10:29:12 <warlord> by "line" are you talking about splits in a single transaction, or the sort order of multiple transactions?
10:29:30 <XiXaQ> I'll have to start all over. I'm not allowed to edit anything anymore, because I'm supposedly editing the transaction in some other window that I can't see.
10:30:13 <XiXaQ> sorry, in another register..
10:30:39 <warlord> Oh, you've hit THAT problem. Maybe chris can help with that.
10:30:42 <warlord> What version of gnucash?
10:31:21 <XiXaQ> _that_ problem? I'm hitting all kinds of problems, I think.
10:31:41 <XiXaQ> 2.2.1 r16462
10:32:27 <warlord> The "still editing" problem is one of those "hard to reproduce" things. I'm not hearing any other issue that isn't "user misunderstanding" yet.
10:33:24 <XiXaQ> well. I'm usually pretty good at following manuals. If I'm misunderstanding something there, it's not a pebcac, but a manual bug. I'm fairly certain of that.
10:33:43 <warlord> Perhaps you just haven't explained the issue yet.
10:34:25 <XiXaQ> that's probably true. As I said, I'll have to start over from scratch. I'll document what I do as detailed as possible.
10:34:52 <warlord> I recommend AGAINST using the transfer dialog... ESPECIALLY for split transactions.
10:35:02 <warlord> Just enter stuff in the register. In generally it's MUCH easier.
10:35:20 <warlord> And I also suggest you do everything from your Asset account (E.g., open up the Checking account register).
10:35:57 <warlord> There is a known issue that as you're entering in splits it re-orders them in the display.
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10:59:49 <XiXaQ> yes, everything is tossed around.
11:00:11 <warlord> "everything"?
11:00:57 <XiXaQ> almost. Descriptions are moved to different transactions, empty transactions are inserted, the main transaction description is replaced..
11:01:44 <XiXaQ> I'll show you.
11:01:45 <jsled> Are you using compviz?
11:01:47 <warlord> Please do.
11:02:53 <XiXaQ> I'll take a few minutes. :)
11:02:54 <jsled> XiXaQ: Does <http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2007-October/022103.html> fix the issues?
11:03:46 <XiXaQ> no, I'm not using compiz fusion.
11:11:49 <warlord> Well, perhaps a screen shot would be useful in showing what you're trying to describe?
11:15:15 <XiXaQ> I'm recording the screen.
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11:27:13 <XiXaQ> bah. Of course, I had to have a hickup on my server... :)
11:28:08 <warlord> OOps
11:34:05 <XiXaQ> finally :)
11:34:08 <XiXaQ> http://xixaq.homelinux.net/div/gnucash01.ogg
11:37:16 <warlord> Right... The "transfer dialog" creates a new transaction.. It doesn't edit the current transaction.
11:37:34 <warlord> So, you're working on editing one transaction, and then you create another transaction by clicking on "Transfer"
11:39:42 <XiXaQ> oh, ok, so I _have_ to edit split transactions in the register?
11:39:57 <warlord> Ummm yes! That's what I've been saying.
11:40:15 <XiXaQ> no, you recommended.. :)
11:40:25 <warlord> I said this at 10:24: <warlord> You can't create a split transaction from the transfer dialog.
11:40:42 <warlord> No, i recommending not using the transfer dialog at all.
11:42:00 <XiXaQ> yes, it doesn't do anything special?
11:42:15 <XiXaQ> when I entered stuff directly into the register, then I don't think I had any of those problems.
11:44:05 <warlord> The transfer dialog isn't doing anything special, but what's going on is that it's creating a new transaction, and as that committed transaction happens before the "open" transaction, it gets put higher in the list. And you didn't enter a Description in the xfer dialog, which is why it got entered blank.
11:45:06 <XiXaQ> I see, so in plain english, either write everything into the transaction in the register, or everything in the transaction window?
11:46:13 <warlord> Yep
11:46:21 <warlord> They are two completely separate methods of data entry.
11:46:34 <XiXaQ> I see. I don't think the manual was very clear on that.
11:46:42 <warlord> Sure it is.
11:46:46 <XiXaQ> not to me.
11:46:56 * warlord shrugs
11:47:11 <XiXaQ> well, perhaps it's clear when you know what it means..
11:48:09 <warlord> perhaps.
11:48:23 <warlord> But anyways, gnucash is doing exactly what it's supposed to do based on your inputs.
11:48:51 <XiXaQ> I don't doubt that.
11:49:01 <warlord> You start to enter a transaction in the register.. then you tell it you want to create a new transaction via the xfer dialog. You complete the second task, and then cancel the first one.
11:49:34 <warlord> ... and then correct the fact that you didn't enter a description in the xfer dialog by editing it in the register..
11:49:41 <warlord> lather, rinse, repeat.
11:52:43 <XiXaQ> if you look at that section in the manual. Do you understand why I did it that way?
11:53:12 <warlord> URL?
11:55:37 <XiXaQ> http://svn.gnucash.org/docs/guide/txns-registers1.html
11:57:17 <warlord> No... It says to "click on the transfer pop-up menu" You clicked on the Transfer toolbar button.
11:58:04 <XiXaQ> there is no transfer popup menu.
11:58:11 <warlord> Sure there is!!
11:58:14 <XiXaQ> where?
11:58:34 <warlord> The popup menu... in the transfer cell in the register.
11:58:58 <XiXaQ> which one is the transfer cell?
11:59:47 <warlord> Okay, now this is pebcak. Try reading the column headers.
12:00:03 <XiXaQ> !
12:00:14 <XiXaQ> look at the video then. There is no cell named Transfer.
12:00:31 <XiXaQ> not in that window, anyway.
12:00:37 <warlord> sure there is!
12:00:56 <XiXaQ> where?
12:01:08 <warlord> Right in front of your nose.
12:01:12 <XiXaQ> no.
12:01:15 <warlord> What are the column headers?
12:01:19 <warlord> Type them in right now.
12:01:24 <warlord> right here.
12:01:34 <warlord> Tell me what you're reading in your registe.r
12:01:46 <warlord> I'll start you off. The first one says "Date"
12:01:50 <XiXaQ> Action, Menu, Account, R, Deposit and Withdrawal.
12:01:53 <XiXaQ> no.
12:02:10 <XiXaQ> the first one doesn't have a heading.
12:02:21 <warlord> Click "Cancel" and start ove.
12:02:23 <XiXaQ> but I can see that it's a date field.
12:02:38 <warlord> Get out of "Split" mode.
12:02:41 <warlord> Then look.
12:03:00 <XiXaQ> ah!
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12:03:44 <warlord> Yes, it gets renamed in Split mode to "Account", but by the time you get to "Splits" you should have already understood the concept.
12:05:23 <XiXaQ> I understand the concept. I don't understand the gui. That's two different things.
12:05:47 <warlord> If you followed the docs, by the time you get to Splits you'd have already understood the GUI, too..
12:06:01 <XiXaQ> then it has to be pretty subtle.
12:06:12 <warlord> Not really.
12:06:29 <XiXaQ> I've read my share of manuals you know.
12:08:28 <XiXaQ> just by changing the background colour on the headings, it would have been much more clear.
12:08:28 <warlord> I suppose we can add a sentence that says "This is the Transfer column of the register, not the Transfer button in the toolbar."
12:09:11 <warlord> Eh? The headings already have a different background color than the rest of the register.
12:09:57 <XiXaQ> no, the headers change meaning and names, but the background colour stays the same. Otherwise, I would have noticed the change.
12:10:18 <warlord> It's still quite obvious that the text is changing.
12:10:32 <XiXaQ> it's not obvious.
12:10:34 <warlord> But sure.. Send in a patch to change the color too.
12:12:08 <XiXaQ> heh, you do this with all newbies?
12:12:19 <warlord> Yep!
12:12:42 <XiXaQ> I see.
12:13:06 <warlord> anyways, gotta run.
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12:15:06 <XiXaQ> I guess I'll have another look at ledgersmb.
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12:18:49 <XiXaQ> it's very hard for me to recommend this application to my customers when I know that they will be ridiculed if they ever ask for help..
12:18:55 <warlord> go ahead. but will ledgersmb give you two hours of free tech support?
12:19:26 <XiXaQ> I don't know.
12:19:27 <warlord> okay, now I REALLY gotta go
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13:39:42 <XiXaQ> I understand where we went wrong. When the manual refers to "the Transfer pop-up menu", we right clicked the transfer, but that doesn't contain any account information. It's quite difficult to find it if you don't know where it is. That would be solved by adding a simple sentence to the manual.
13:40:03 <XiXaQ> if "click on the Transfer pop-up menu" was changed to "Click on the button in the transfer field", for instance..
13:41:28 <XiXaQ> or even better, click on the transfer field, and then on the button that appears inside of it, and select ...
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13:53:59 <gjanssens> I have more or less followed this converstation between warlord and XiXaQ
13:54:54 <gjanssens> I looked at the manual page, and I can understand the confusion.
13:55:14 <gjanssens> I'm too used to Gnucash to notice the ambiguity, but it's there
13:56:17 <gjanssens> As XiXaQ suggests, a different wording in the manual would help. Or at least a picture showing the popup menu in action would be useful as well.
13:57:09 <gjanssens> It is slightly confusing to someone new to GnuCash that there is no hint at that popup menu until the transfer field is actually selected.
14:01:14 <XiXaQ> I don't think an image is necessary if the text explains how to get to the pop-up menu.
14:07:14 <XiXaQ> gjanssens, can you explain something? http://xixaq.homelinux.net/div/gnucash03.ogg is a 2 minute video where I follow the manual from that section. Why are the withdrawals added automatically when I input a deposit?
14:08:41 <XiXaQ> I mean, am I doing anything wrong?
14:10:09 <jsled> No, you're not. When you view it in split mode, it just maintains the running balance in the blank split.
14:10:55 <jsled> If you click Split for the other transactions, you'll see the same thing.
14:11:11 <jsled> The "Assets:Checking" split is automagically maintained there, too.
14:11:26 <jsled> I prefer the auto-split view myself. It's a bit less magical.
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15:38:46 <cstim> not much going on here...
15:41:36 <XiXaQ> jsled, thank you. :)
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