2007-10-19 GnuCash IRC logs

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02:31:24 <hansfbaier> hi, I want to start hacking on the qif import on gnucash.........
02:31:41 <hansfbaier> I have an account with another currency and I want to get that one straight.........
02:31:55 <hansfbaier> anyone in here?
02:38:19 <hansfbaier> HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
02:39:46 <warlord> Dude, it's like almost 3am in the US. Most everyone is asleep.
02:39:54 <warlord> (and I'm about to go to bed myself)
02:40:57 <warlord> The QIF importer really needs to be re-written. I started rewriting it several years ago but aborted it due to lack of time. I wouldn't mind my code being thrown out, or someone completing it. But I dont know how it would help with multi-currencies... QIF doesn't encode currencies.
02:42:26 <hansfbaier> sorry,
02:42:41 <hansfbaier> i live in indonesia and its 1:42 pm right now.........
02:42:43 <hansfbaier> sorry....
02:43:25 <hansfbaier> can you give me a clue, where could add the new functionality?
02:43:54 <warlord> well, see, the problem is that QIF doesn't even encode currencies.
02:44:23 <warlord> So the best you can do is ask the user for the currency denomination of a particular QIF file, and I THOUGHT that the importer already did that.
02:45:15 <hansfbaier> the problem is, I have all accounts in EUR and one Account in IDR........
02:45:27 <hansfbaier> So I need mixed currencies.........
02:45:48 <hansfbaier> or to ask the user for every account......
02:46:10 <warlord> GnuCash Accounts already know their currencies; that's not the problem.
02:46:18 <warlord> What does your multi-currency QIF file look like?
02:46:38 <warlord> And where are you even GETTING a multi-currency QIF file?
02:59:13 <hansfbaier> A quicken file with two accounts in different currencies.........
03:06:29 <warlord> sorry, need to go. You can ask for more help on the gnucash-devel mailing list. But most people keep US hours. Good night (good day?) I should be back online in about 8-9 hours.
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07:57:40 <zwobbl> how do i get gnucash to load /usr/share/gnucash/ui/gnc-plugin-hbci-ui.xml?
07:58:23 <zwobbl> I use the same debian-packages on two different machines... on one hbci functions are avaiable, but not on the other :(
07:59:16 <zwobbl> I straced the start and saw that the xml file is not read by gnucash
07:59:44 <zwobbl> but /usr/lib/gnucash/gnucash/libgncmod-hbci.so is opened twice
08:00:15 <zwobbl> i dont know what i have done additionally on the working box
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08:43:40 <jsled> Gokee2: your datafile is your datafile ... it's in the title of the main window.
08:43:47 <jsled> It's just like a word processor or spreadsheet.
08:46:33 <jsled> zwobbl: that ui file is one of the least important. Debian doesn't include HBCI support because of licensing issues (see <https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnucash/+bug/5973>).
08:46:59 <jsled> You might want to figure out exactly where the package on the "working" box is from.
08:47:37 <jsled> Of course, if the .so and -ui.xml files exist, then it was built with such support ... hmm.
08:47:37 <jsled> That's weird.
08:48:02 <jsled> Maybe see <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Debian> too
09:05:00 <zwobbl> the package on my box is self compiled
09:06:26 <zwobbl> i always add the --enable-hbci option to the rules file as explained in all tutorials
09:07:13 <zwobbl> i also compiled it on the not working box of my friend without success... no hbci menu
09:07:36 <zwobbl> then i tried my packages from my box... no success
09:08:14 <zwobbl> i looked up the strace output some closer
09:09:08 <zwobbl> it opens gwen, aqbanking, ktoblz-thing, libssl and libcrypto after it has opened the .so file
09:09:54 <zwobbl> like on my box... but doesnt open the xml file, but it exists
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09:25:57 <jsled> zwobbl: do you have another install/package of gnucash on the box that's confusing the issue?
09:27:43 <zwobbl> no, nothing
09:28:08 <zwobbl> it is a fresh installed etch
09:28:30 <zwobbl> maybe some gnome packages missing?
09:29:43 <jsled> if that was the case, it shouldn't have built.
09:29:43 <jsled> Of course, if you built into a custom package, you might not have the libraries.
09:29:58 <jsled> Did you also add --enable-ofx ?
09:30:42 <zwobbl> i deinstalled the stuff and will again try to build the package on the non-working box
09:31:04 <jsled> Is anything printed to the console or trace file when you run it?
09:31:04 <jsled> (please pastebin if more than a few lines)
09:32:04 <zwobbl> no... just gnc.bin-Message: main: binreloc relocation support was disabled at configure time.
09:32:12 <zwobbl> but thats also showing up on my box
09:35:06 <zwobbl> configure summary looks good... ofx hbci enabled
09:38:46 <zwobbl> is libchipcard needed? i think not...
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09:41:39 <jsled> If you want chipcard-based HBCI support, AIUI.
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09:48:06 <zwobbl> yeah, i use it on my box, but on the friends box only pin/tan will be used
09:48:37 <zwobbl> thats the only banking related packages that are not installed there
09:51:29 <zwobbl> ok, package created, installed, no hbci functions in menu
09:51:50 <jsled> You're looking in the Actions menu, right?
09:52:30 <zwobbl> and tools menu
09:52:55 <zwobbl> there should be the "online banking setup" option
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09:54:45 <jsled> Wow. My gnucash-2.2.1 install has broken.
09:55:16 <IanL> heh, if someone like you breaks their install we're all in for it.
09:55:17 <zwobbl> it wasnt me! :)
09:55:31 <jsled> No, that's the thing ... nothing's changed recently.
09:56:09 <jsled> well, maybe. I did do system upgrading yesterday, but I don't think anything relevant changed.
09:56:23 <jsled> Oh, nevermind. Guile did get upgraded.
09:56:39 <zwobbl> hmm... upgrades
09:56:51 <jsled> oh, and there's a guile-1.8.3-r1 in portage this morning. heh.
09:57:03 <zwobbl> on my box i use gnucash and hbci for years now
09:57:24 <zwobbl> so it was also configured with 1.8, 2.0 and now 2.2
09:57:42 <zwobbl> on the other box its a fresh gnucash 2.2 install
09:58:03 <zwobbl> might there be some misconfiguration?
09:58:48 <zwobbl> i dont know what this gconf stuff is good for...
09:59:03 <zwobbl> can that be the key?
09:59:15 <jsled> uh. no.
09:59:21 <jsled> gconf is used to store settings.
09:59:44 <jsled> Why do you think that has anything to do with it?
09:59:58 <zwobbl> but no UI setting like what ui plugins has to be loaded at start?
10:00:06 <jsled> no.
10:00:22 <jsled> That's all controlled by configure options and what's built.
10:00:33 <zwobbl> oko
10:00:36 <zwobbl> ok
10:01:04 <jsled> you're following the build instructions at <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Debian#Creating_packages_with_HBCI_and_aqofxconnect_enabled> ?
10:01:32 <jsled> hmm. guile-1.8.3-r1 doesn't work either.
10:02:43 <zwobbl> hmm... I compiled gnucash like that
10:03:00 <zwobbl> but havent changed anything on aqbanking
10:03:43 <zwobbl> dont think its needed to change aqbanking...
10:04:16 <zwobbl> upgraded yesterday aqbanking and libchipcard to the latest packages on my box and it still works
10:04:38 <zwobbl> i will now try to compile and install from gnucash.org's sources
10:06:33 <jsled> what were you building before?
10:07:03 <zwobbl> loaded the source from apt-get
10:07:08 <zwobbl> ./configure --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc --enable-ofx --enable-hbci
10:07:20 <zwobbl> does this look good or anything to add?
10:08:47 <jsled> that seems right.
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10:10:27 <chris> jsled: Is that a stable guile release?
10:11:08 <jsled> Hmmm. No, it's actually marked testing (~x86) here. Why'd I get upgraded...?
10:12:06 <jsled> Ah. I did it myself.
10:12:06 <jsled> There was a testing request, so I widened the keywording to "guile-1.8*". Well, good, then. :)
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10:14:23 <Florian> hi
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10:14:51 <Florian> I have a question about configuring gnucash
10:14:54 <jsled> hello.
10:15:07 <Florian> let's assume I have a company
10:15:21 <Florian> 4 branches of the same ldt
10:16:38 <Florian> can I configure gnucash in a way that every branch writes its own cashbook and all data is inserted in one central database?
10:17:07 <jsled> there's no database, per se.
10:17:13 <Florian> i see
10:17:56 <Florian> I already tried to work on the same file from 2 different clients but due to locking the last one who saves wins
10:18:26 <jsled> Uh, due to locking, the last one to open the file should be told that they shouldn't.
10:19:19 <Florian> yes - that's what I mean. But when he does bad things can happen.
10:20:29 <Florian> any suggestions
10:20:37 <jsled> If one ignores the BIG WARNING we put up, well ...
10:21:03 <Florian> is gnucash just the wrong piece of software for this use?
10:21:04 <jsled> Is your question "how can I account for 4 entities in gnucash", or "how can I let 4 people edit the same datafile"?
10:21:31 <Florian> the last one "how can I let 4 people edit the same datafile"
10:21:46 <Florian> ...at the same time
10:21:58 <chris> jsled: well, better your failure than every other poor schmuck. :)
10:22:09 <Florian> ...without doing any harm
10:22:17 <Florian> sorry - I didn't undertand
10:22:26 <Florian> understand
10:22:32 <jsled> Florian: you cannot in gnucash.
10:22:45 <jsled> It's a single-user application.
10:23:00 <Florian> can you suggest a software that works for this use?
10:23:04 <jsled> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Can_I_use_GnuCash_with_multiple_users.3F__Maybe_via_the_SQL_backend.3F
10:23:04 <chris> Florian: gnucash does not support multiple concurrent *writing* to the datafile.
10:23:28 <jsled> chris: true.
10:24:33 <Florian> i am really desperately searching installing and deleting again for days now.
10:24:47 <Florian> thanks for the link btw
10:25:35 <jsled> Yeah, as chris says, 4 people can use the same datafile. Just not at the same time.
10:26:12 <zwobbl> jsled: no hbci functions again... :( there must be something missing in the 2.2.1 sources?
10:26:13 <Florian> but if I have 10 branches I will definitely run into troubles - it doesn't scale...
10:26:50 <jsled> no, it doesn't. GnuCash probably isn't suitable for that scenario.
10:26:59 <chris> Florian: Gnucash is not POS software.
10:27:15 <Florian> it's not at the POS
10:27:16 <jsled> zwobbl: no ... the functions are built and available here.
10:27:29 <chris> Florian: how many accountants do you have?
10:27:52 <jsled> zwobbl: is there a /usr/lib/gnucash/libgncmod-hbci.so file?
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10:28:34 <Florian> there is a secretary in the head-office and she should mainly control the bookings that are entered by one person in each branch.
10:29:02 <Florian> and print reports on a regular basis and can report actual data daily
10:29:23 <zwobbl> jsled: maybe u can compare http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d29ebc1af
10:29:50 <zwobbl> yeah, this file exists
10:30:27 <chris> Florian: wow, distributed accounting, huh?
10:30:45 <Florian> actually it's pre accountiny
10:30:47 <Florian> actually it's pre accounting
10:31:11 <Florian> it's just wrinting cashbooks and one bankyccount
10:31:23 <zwobbl> jsled: and in gnc-plugin-hbci-ui.xml I can see the menu items defined
10:31:33 <zwobbl> but they arent loaded :cry:
10:33:33 <jsled> zwobbl: and is anything printed in /tmp/gnucash.trace?
10:33:54 <zwobbl> ill have a look
10:34:02 <warlord> zwobbl: are there are library load failures in the strace? (failures that don't have a subsequent "success"?)
10:34:35 <zwobbl> gnucash.trace is empty
10:34:55 <zwobbl> strace looks same as on my box
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10:35:59 <zwobbl> really weird... never had problems with compiling gnucash that way :(
10:37:08 <chris> Florian: I don't think GnuCash is going to work that way, sorry.
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10:37:25 <Florian> thank you for your help - any suggestions
10:37:27 * chris just realized GnuCash doesn't have QIF export.
10:37:45 <jsled> heh.
10:38:58 <warlord> chris: just NOW? wow.
10:39:06 <warlord> Florian: Um, have you looked at Sql-Ledger?
10:39:53 <Florian> yes, I have looked at that one too - currently I am installing ledgersmb.org on my ubuntu-system
10:40:09 <zwobbl> what else can I check? both boxes are amd64 arch...
10:40:22 <chris> yeah, I've never needed it, and just figured it was possible.
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10:41:39 <warlord> chris: it's possible via gnucash2qif
10:42:05 <warlord> zwobbl: you've done a "diff" of the two straces and they're exactly the same?
10:43:03 <zwobbl> sec... have to download the remote file
10:45:34 <warlord> (you might need to tell grep to ignore the timestamps)
10:46:34 <zwobbl> diff is not a good idea :)
10:46:42 <chris> ... and sed -e 's/$one-pid/$other-pid/g'
10:47:20 <chris> ..and scratch out anything that looks like a memory location.
10:47:46 <chris> it's a tough route, but sometimes it's the easiest way.
10:49:41 <zwobbl> well also filedescriptors differ
10:50:15 <zwobbl> thats the strace part where the xml file is loaded on my box http://zwobbl.pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d4b482d75
10:51:16 <zwobbl> corresponding part on the non-working box http://zwobbl.pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d3858fd2
10:51:45 <warlord> I can't view those posts... firefox wants to view using an external viewer.
10:52:09 <jsled> warlord: so use emacsclient or whatever.
10:52:31 <jsled> though it would be easier if they were normal patebin urls...
10:52:50 <zwobbl> ok, sorry
10:52:54 <jsled> http://zwobbl.pastebin.com/d4b482d75
10:52:57 <jsled> http://zwobbl.pastebin.com/d3858fd2
10:52:58 <zwobbl> http://zwobbl.pastebin.com/d3858fd2
10:53:05 <zwobbl> thx
10:53:05 <warlord> zwobbl: what about the parts where the hbci module is loaded?
10:53:06 <jsled> beat-cha!
10:53:07 <jsled> :)
10:53:26 <jsled> they're there.
10:54:24 <warlord> Actually, FD difference is a good question -- why do the file descriptors differ? Why is one 14 and one 17? What's different? When do they start to differ?
10:56:34 <zwobbl> right at the beginning of the strace :)
10:57:11 <zwobbl> the first open for ld.so.cache gets 3 and 5
10:57:37 <jsled> right ... so, I always forget ediff is awesome...
10:57:37 <jsled> The failure seems to be when box loads libcrypto.so.0.9.8.
10:57:49 <zwobbl> im connected to the non-working box via ssh with X-forwarding
10:59:10 <jsled> Shortly after that, it appears to munmap all the regions it just mapped for the other libraries (gwenhywfar, ktoblzcheck, &c.)
10:59:12 <zwobbl> yes, after that part there is a big difference
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11:00:04 <jsled> But it doesn't appear there's an error response anywhere.
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11:02:08 <zwobbl> will check versions...
11:13:12 <zwobbl> 0.9.8f-1 on the non-working, 0.9.8e-9 on the working box
11:14:52 <jsled> interesting. I know openssl can be ... finicky ... with ABI compatability. You might try downgrading on the non-working box, or building gnucash on the non-working box.
11:15:50 <zwobbl> i downgraded the package
11:15:52 <warlord> Actually, you might need to rebuild all the AQB deps with the upgraded openssl
11:16:04 <warlord> (or just downgrade it)
11:16:15 <jsled> Right. Not gnucash, but aqbanking.
11:16:28 <zwobbl> then gnucash crashed...
11:17:21 <zwobbl> just doing a clean compile again
11:17:45 <warlord> sounds like these two systems aren't running the same version of debian
11:19:31 <zwobbl> aqbanking is on both systems from the distribution packages
11:20:04 <zwobbl> but now a realized that on the non-working box aqbanking16-qt-wizard is an older version
11:20:18 <zwobbl> maybe thats the trick
11:20:50 <zwobbl> well... both systems are a mix of lenny/sid :)
11:21:07 <warlord> Oh, lovely... "mix" systems are extremely unpredictable.
11:22:44 <zwobbl> etch has no actual AQB packages
11:23:36 <zwobbl> downgraded libssl didnt help, upgraded wizard didnt help... have no glue
11:24:22 <zwobbl> qbankmanager does work on both systems BTW
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12:13:47 <warlord> BIAB -- heading into the office.
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12:31:16 <chris> Let's see who can predict when warlord will reappear: I guess, 12:53 EDT.
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12:35:31 <chris> well, it's easiest to be closest when you're the only person guessing.
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13:59:38 <JoeyJoeJo> is there a binary for os x?
13:59:56 *** jsled_ is now known as jsled
14:00:09 <jsled> A commercial entity provides one.
14:00:17 <jsled> There's not one available gratis.
14:00:19 <JoeyJoeJo> meaning I've gotta buy it?
14:00:27 <jsled> right.
14:00:39 <jsled> GnuCash is buildable through both fink and MacPorts.
14:00:50 <JoeyJoeJo> yeah, but then I've gotta use X
14:01:03 <jsled> true, but that's a whole other matter.
14:01:25 <jsled> Even "naïve" pre-built binary of gnucash would probably still use X.
14:01:47 <jsled> Until the mac-backend-for-gtk project gets further along. And someone sets it up. And builds/distributes said binaries.
14:02:12 <JoeyJoeJo> well that kinda sucks
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14:12:00 <esodan> Hi all, I just want to know if can I use libgnucash as the of library I’m working on?
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14:12:47 <jsled> esodan: as its name? What's the library?
14:15:45 <esodan> It is GDA based and tries to have the same functionality than GC’s engine but without using a wraper library
14:16:04 <jsled> hmm?
14:16:10 <jsled> "a wrapper library"?
14:17:03 <esodan> It will use directly the objects in the database using queries
14:17:51 <jsled> What's an example of a function in the librar?
14:17:55 <jsled> library, even.
14:18:34 <esodan> Well I’m not using QOF but directly GDA
14:18:50 <jsled> I kinda guessed at that.
14:19:59 <jsled> So, like, xaccAccountFindSplitByDesc(...) makes a query against some table.
14:20:00 <jsled> ?
14:20:28 <jsled> I'd call such a thing libgncgdaengine or something.
14:20:59 <esodan> Let me change to my laptop to continue
14:20:59 <jsled> "libgnucash" is meaningless. It's like calling a variable "data" or a structure "Struct". It doesn't say anything.
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14:22:12 <esoda1> Hi I'm back!
14:23:20 <esoda1> For your last question: Yes the library will use a "SELECT * FROM splits WHERE description = 'something' "
14:23:31 <jsled> right.
14:24:10 <jsled> So, I'd still call such a thing "lib-gnc-gda-backed-engine" or something like that.
14:24:51 <jsled> But. How are you going to handle updates?
14:24:54 <esoda1> And will allow you to *use* this query for execute it (getting a GdaDataModel) or add new conditions to the query in order to get for example just the ones between some dates " date > 2007-10-19"
14:25:11 <jsled> Like QofQuery?
14:26:18 <esoda1> QofQuery doesn't allow to add new conditions to its query using GObjects, GValues or something like GdaQuery does
14:26:25 <warlord> * sings: "If I had a hammer... I'd hammer in the morning.. I'd hammer in the evening. All over this land..."
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14:26:49 <jsled> esoda1: true.
14:26:51 <warlord> esoda1: but it does allow you to add new conditions to the query using the QofQuery API.
14:26:57 <chris> esoda1: I hope you've been looking at the gda-dev branch, since that's basically what it's doing.
14:27:07 <warlord> (which, I admit, are not GObject or GValues...)
14:28:37 <esoda1> warlord: Thats exactly the point, it doesn't use GObjects and GValue, it doesn't abstract the information of the DataBase Server like GDA, this is things and more other ones that QOF can't do and just limits GDA over QOF features...
14:29:16 <warlord> So you're just swapping one API for another. What's the change in FUNCTIONALITY?
14:29:46 <chris> warlord: GdaQuerys work with, you know, databases.
14:30:01 <warlord> so could qof.
14:30:04 <esoda1> But I'm realy want to write some code to show how is simple to use GDA directly and how could help any others to for example: create bindings to access the data, create new GUI backends like Qt or others, create applets, all one using a GObject based library
14:30:25 <warlord> esoda1: go for it.
14:30:49 <chris> sure, but QOF's api is horrible.
14:31:03 <chris> and GDA already has multiple backends.
14:31:12 <jsled> esoda1: but how are you going to handle updates?
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14:32:02 <esoda1> well my idea is to create objects directly in the database and get the last inserted object's ID to get a reference to it
14:32:18 <jsled> You have two options: either object-based field updates that do change tracking or an update API.
14:32:27 <jsled> "create objects directly in the database"?
14:32:40 <warlord> chris: true, the API is horrible. I'm even partially responsible for it, along with Linas and, eventually, Neil.
14:32:51 <esoda1> each object will have an ID (as an integer) to get its data (using a query) and allow to update it using a UPDATE command
14:33:24 <lewy> accounting practices question: board designates funds for specific purpose, creates liability. What is other side of entry?
14:33:25 <warlord> esoda1: so I have to have specific UPDATE SQL in my application code?
14:33:44 <jsled> warlord: not necessarily.
14:33:57 <warlord> lewy: the asset where the funds from the liability were deposited?
14:34:21 <warlord> jsled: true, but I'm trying to understand esoda1's view
14:34:29 <jsled> esoda1: But ... sigh. That's exactly the gda branch.
14:34:45 <esoda1> warlord: No, you will have a *template* SQL using GDA's parameters for example: SELECT * FROM accounts WHERE id = #id
14:35:05 <jsled> esoda1: does GDA have an O/R component?
14:35:11 <warlord> O/R?
14:35:15 <esoda1> where #id is a parrameter that the object set when call execute the query using GdaParameter and GdaQuery
14:35:17 <jsled> Object/Relational mapping.
14:35:42 <lewy> the funds are already in the bank. (general funds) Not spent yet so I can't reduce that. I think this should be obvious but isn't to me.
14:36:10 <esoda1> GDA has an object for everything in a database: GdaQuery, GdaCondition, GdaQueryField, GdaQueryFielValue
14:36:13 <warlord> lewy: you can't create something from nothing. "follow the money"
14:36:48 <esoda1> If you want to see the GDA's documentation see at: library.gnome.org
14:37:05 <jsled> esoda1: it's not really important how GDA works.
14:37:22 <chris> warlord: UPDATE statements are generated by GDA.
14:37:43 <chris> esoda1: So, have you been following the gda branch?
14:38:06 <chris> esoda1: don't you even have commit access to it?
14:38:08 <esoda1> Yes, I'm using the last TRUNK in my development
14:38:18 <warlord> then esoda1 isn't answering the questions I'm asking, which is "how would an application use this new library API?" -- and what would this library api look like?
14:38:25 <chris> TRUNK != gda branch.
14:38:41 <warlord> chris: no, he doesn't have commit access to the gda-dev branch.
14:38:59 <chris> well, the api is in the documentation.
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14:39:33 <chris> oh, well does he have commit access to some branch?
14:40:03 <warlord> yes... the gobject-engine-dev braches
14:40:06 <esoda1> Not know, I'm lost my GPG sing and I'm not have any access
14:40:29 <chris> oh yeah, that's right.
14:40:40 <warlord> Luckily you dont need a GPG key to access it! Only an SSH key. :-D
14:40:46 <jsled> esoda1: So, it's not even another library you want.
14:40:52 <chris> esoda1: what's the status of the gobject-engine-dev branch?
14:41:11 <jsled> esoda1: if you want to create a drop-in replacment for the engine, then it'll need to be named libgncengine (or whatever).
14:41:32 <esoda1> chris: I leave it when I fail to modify QOF to use GObject
14:42:03 <esoda1> jsled: that's a good idea...
14:42:20 <warlord> esoda1: but if you do that, you'd need to KEEP the existing engine API.
14:42:23 <jsled> But, I don't think you want that. You just want to change the code.
14:42:26 <jsled> Right.
14:42:39 <jsled> I mean, you want to modify two main things:
14:43:00 <jsled> 1/ You'll need to modify how the setDirty / commit code works to generate SQL.
14:43:04 <warlord> chris: I re-did the gobject-engine-dev stuff and that's been merged into trunk..
14:43:16 <esoda1> I have a little code written, and if far different from the actual one... I don't plant to touch the actual engine or QOF
14:43:22 <jsled> 2/ You'll need to *either*: as you said, replace the existing "query" APIs to do GDA queries directly.
14:43:37 <jsled> 2b/ ... or just fix QofQuery to wrap GDA.
14:44:04 <jsled> Which, is what the gda branch is doing.
14:44:52 <warlord> esoda1: have you looked at all at the gda-dev branch?
14:45:00 <warlord> @op jsled
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14:45:17 <chris> esoda1: just _look_ at the gda branch, ok?
14:46:11 <esoda1> warlord: sorry but no. It is using QOF and use GDA as a backend witch hides most of the GDA's features, then I plan to create a new engine that will use GDA directly
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14:47:32 <esoda1> chris: Yes is a good idea too, it could help me in some cases to know how GC stores its data and how can I take advantage of a direct Database access using GDA's objects
14:47:34 <warlord> Yes, it's hiding most of the GDA features, but again, the current gnucash code doesn't NEED those features, so.... could you look at it? Honestly, I bet you could finish THAT branch really darn quickly, which would get gnucash at least limping along with gda..
14:47:54 <chris> esoda1: don't you think what you're describing is a subset of what's happening in the gda branch?
14:49:04 <esoda1> For know I have a lot of ideas to help any one to use the GC's data using GDA some of them are:
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14:50:28 <esoda1> 1/ Allow the front end to get the data directly from the database, using the defaults GdaQuery or add new subqueries or new conditions
14:51:36 <andrewsw> me hands warlord some nails.
14:51:48 <esoda1> 2/ Return reports with sums, averages, max, min, values in an account or a combination of them, with the possibility to modify the query
14:52:53 <esoda1> 3/ Returns balances, balances sheets in XML format to allow transformation by the frontend to use different GUIs (HTML is one of them)
14:53:29 <jsled> esoda1: Those are all really hand-waving, and have nothing to do with GDA.
14:54:00 <esoda1> 4/ Allow the front end to get objects from the database for show, update or any thing it wants using an easy to use GdaParameter interface
14:54:41 <jsled> That was (1).
14:55:02 <esoda1> Of course that the actual GnuCash and its engine has more features, but the point is to:
14:56:44 <esoda1> 1/ Allow any to create a front end to GC's data, using a GObject interface, witch helps any other to writes bindings to the library like python, java, c++ or any OO language
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15:00:02 <esoda1> 2/ Allow any to get access to the data using GDA's objects: queries, tables, reports, values and so. If so many, for example GnuCash witch can use a GdaDataModel into its worksheet, can manipulate the data for different porpouses, other can create analisys from the returned data using subqueries or filtering the returned by the library (again using the GdaQuery object)
15:00:45 * warlord still doesn't see the customers clamoring for such an interface.
15:00:47 <esoda1> I'm sorry I mean Gnumeric instead GnuCash to use worksheets!
15:01:12 <jsled> esoda1: Right. That would all be grand.
15:02:03 <esoda1> Any way I'm working on this, and hope to have a *proof of concept* in a near feature, but I need to repository to share my code, any suggestion?
15:02:41 <cstim> hi all. Anyone a cold beer?
15:02:50 <jsled> hey cstim.
15:04:03 <esoda1> This work exist becouse I saw most peaple to ask: Could you port it to Qt? Could you port to HTML? Can I write an applet? Can I use Python?
15:04:37 * cstim had a great evening of babysitting Maia. We even watched the stars together! "eins, zwei, drei sterne! da oben!
15:05:00 <esoda1> Just like GDA has GnomeDB GUI widgets sets, I'm planning to have a little ones in a separate library
15:05:14 <andrewsw> cstim: nice!
15:06:02 <esoda1> Does any know where can I have an SVN account to commit my work?
15:07:36 <cstim> *cough* esoda1: you *have* an SVN account already, don't you? (in the gobject-engine-dev branch)
15:07:37 <esoda1> I'm planning to see at gnome.org, I don't finish to create my account to contribute to GDA and GnomeDB projects
15:09:27 <jsled> esoda1: here's a good project: make the QofQuery interface an adapter to GdaQuery.
15:09:49 <jsled> It's a bit of the cart before the horse without any actual data to query.
15:09:55 <esoda1> I've losted my SSH key and don't know (for now) how can I create a library in the GC's source code
15:10:00 <jsled> But then, all the *existing* code would work as designed.
15:10:14 <jsled> Or, as written.
15:10:33 <jsled> But, we'd know that all of the existing QofQuery usage was semantically compatible with GDA.
15:10:43 <jsled> And could – incrementally – move them to using GdaQuery directly.
15:11:10 <esoda1> of course that I'll never touch any thing in GC, just if you find usefull this work may you'll want to change some things
15:11:34 <jsled> Also – similar to your comments about the reports earlier – there are way bigger problems with "porting to Qt" or "porting to the web" than using GDA.
15:12:21 <jsled> esoda1: Well, if you're saying "I'm going to go off and do another only barely related project that you might find useful", then god speed. But I think we'd rather have useful work done to gnucash.
15:14:41 <esoda1> Most of the problems in QofQuery is its dependency to QOF, becouse QOF have a hash table to store objects and save latter to the backend, it has its own object system incompatible with GObject, my idea is to use directly the data from the database, get and update directly to allow other frontends to get the right data when they execute a query
15:15:41 <jsled> Hmm. Well, the QOF backend can save stuff to the database as they're changed.
15:16:04 <jsled> And even in your proposed idea, you're still going to want that "hash table to store objects", I think.
15:16:11 <jsled> It'll just be a cache, rather than the whole dataset.
15:16:39 <esoda1> There a lot of projects like GStreamer that is used by Qt frontends, even I was working in a C# binding for GDA in order to embed it in a web page, Glom projects have a python binding for GDA that any can embed in web page to use GDA
15:17:10 <jsled> Um. Okay.
15:17:22 <jsled> I'm not saying it's not possible to create a Qt interface to gnucash.
15:17:32 <jsled> Or a web interface.
15:17:53 <jsled> But that has nothing to do with GDA.
15:18:04 <esoda1> In GDA you have a GdaDataModelProxy object witch you can syncronice with the database later, but for now I don't using it but direct insert and update data to the database
15:20:52 <esoda1> Of course porting to Qt or web doesn't have any to do with GDA, but a library based in GObject could, Mono have GAPI to wraps any GObject based library to C# more or less automatically, python needs the GObject instrospection in order to get acces to the events and properties, this just will help to others to do any thing they want just using the library
15:21:09 <jsled> That's true, and a good point.
15:21:43 <jsled> But replacing QOF with GObject is just a different thing than what we were talking about.
15:22:12 <warlord> Um, QOF is much closer to GObject now than it was before. All QOF objects are GObjects now.
15:23:12 <warlord> And I still think we could do a feature-by-feature migration from the QOF-way to the GObject-way...
15:23:22 <jsled> Hmm. Can swig work *from* – say – python sources?
15:23:26 <jsled> Or only C sources. chris?
15:24:06 <warlord> jsled: Good question. I THOUGHT only from C or C++.
15:24:28 <jsled> Idea: re-write core engine objects in python + gda. Just a wholesale re-implementation. Then use something to provide C bindings for the rest of the app. :)
15:24:42 <warlord> hahahahahahaahah
15:24:46 <jsled> I guess that's esoda1's idea, without the python.
15:25:18 <warlord> Maybe. Not sure.
15:25:52 <warlord> I still wish I could convince esoda1 to help Phil with the gda-dev branch to finish that, even though it's not the design that esoda1 wants. But then we'd at least have some experience with GDA in the application.
15:26:37 <jsled> esoda1: See, if you just change the QofQuery, you get all its callers, too.
15:26:49 <esoda1> A multiuser inviroment needs that any frontend updates its data as soon a possible, and using directly GDA will short the time required to get this functionality and allow any other to explode the data in GC using an abstraction GDA's GObject model
15:27:26 <jsled> esoda1: Right. If you're still trying to sell us on GDA, you can stop.
15:27:45 <esoda1> jsled: I realy tried to do some think in QOF remember? but its too time consuming
15:28:03 <jsled> True.
15:28:31 <jsled> But it has the advantage of having a better chance of being successful.
15:28:38 <esoda1> And at the end you will use GDA anyway for database access then way don't use at the start point, that is I'm doing.
15:29:03 <jsled> Like, you could spend 12 months incrementally changing gnucash or 6 months trying to re-write it. But the chances of success are like 80% vs. like 10%.
15:29:28 <jsled> esoda1: because evolving a system is different from starting from scratch.
15:29:55 <esoda1> Of course I don't want to sell GDA to you, you have brouth it when accept to use it as a backend to database access
15:30:48 <esoda1> I just want a repository for my work and tell you what I'm doing if is your interest or anyone wants to help...
15:35:02 <cstim> Any Germans around?
15:35:06 <esoda1> I see you doesn't know, jet, GDA's features and how will help you in gnucash porpouse, but I realy want to others to use even the GC's data in a database using this library or some thing doing the same tasks as engine without a GUI to others: GUI programmers, bingins or so, in order to create new tools that will explode the financial information for a peaple or bussines
15:35:29 <jsled> esoda1: I do know GDAs features and how they would help gnucash.
15:35:34 <jsled> esoda1: we all do.
15:35:58 <andrewsw> cstim: have you seen my patched income-statement?
15:36:45 <cstim> andrewsw: yes. nice work. *I* never heard about that requirement, but I'm not into German bookkeeping.
15:37:45 <andrewsw> cstim: seemed kinda silly to me, but was easy enough. I was hoping you had some insight into whether it was truly needed...
15:37:46 <esoda1> Great! I'm sorry if I felt different, just I don't see how or even if you want to allow others to use GC's data: with a different GUI (Qt, html or an applet), with a different application like Gnumeric, or so
15:38:32 <jsled> we all agree that: qof should be replaced with gobject; gda should be used; gnucash sdhould have a DB backend.
15:38:41 <warlord> esoda1: one could write an application against the existing APIs in Qt, Html, or an applet.. No need for GDA for that. As for something like Gnumeric.... *shrugs*
15:38:49 <cstim> jsled: and gnucash should have world domination, of course!
15:38:50 <esoda1> Do you have any suggestion about where can I commit my work?
15:39:05 <jsled> My concerns about the idea of having alternate interfaces for gnucash are ones of modularity and divergence.
15:39:19 <warlord> esoda1: make a sourceforge project?
15:39:36 <jsled> I wouldn't want a nifty new piece of functionality to be implemented in an HTML UI that wasn't available in the GTK UI, for instance.
15:40:14 <cstim> andrewsw: no, I don't know how much this is needed.
15:41:02 <jsled> esoda1: host a git repository?
15:42:00 <esoda1> a HMTL will be just a front end, the library will do all the job, and if the frontend needs it or wants it can show the data taken directly form the GdaDataModel, row by row, or filter it using a new GdaQuery or modifing the returned one by the API
15:42:24 <jsled> Ugh.
15:43:10 <jsled> See, we generally don't want the UI to be so tightly coupled to the backend.
15:46:05 <esoda1> most projects, sorry but they are out of my mind now, use a separation between the *Model* and the *View*, GTK does it in GtkTreeModel and GtkTreeView, you can modify or access the data using the Model and just show in different ways using the View
15:51:04 <esoda1> jsled: My plan is to do all the job in the library (the Model), but allow the frontend to show the data (the View) using an GObject based API the library and the GDA ones. The frontend doesn't know how the data is stored, just use and update it, and if it wants will get a *table* with all the data to show using a query (a GdaDataModel) or alter the query to filter it (adding GdaQuery's conditions or insert a subquery to the SELECT c
15:51:29 <jsled> you got cut off at "SELECT c"
15:51:55 <jsled> Except, we already have a model (the engine) and a view (the gtk ui).
15:53:20 <jsled> We might just have different parts of the thing in our heads.
15:53:26 <esoda1> Could GC's engine do the job?
15:53:29 * cstim is off to bed. Have a good evening!
15:53:34 <cstim> (really!) :)
15:53:36 <jsled> cstim: take care.
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15:54:03 <jsled> esoda1: well, it works for the existing register. There's a register model (which wraps the engine model) and the register view that uses it...
15:54:47 <jsled> Also, in the SX code, there are other specific adapter classes that implement GtkTreeModel for – say – a GncSxInstances (model)
15:55:13 <esoda1> the point is: Does GC allows to create new GUIs? Does GC allows to get the data in a GObject fashion way (like GDA can)?
15:55:16 <jsled> The options stuff, I've seen, also employs a MVC approach.
15:55:31 <warlord> esoda1: yes, it does.
15:55:36 <jsled> Well, kinda.
15:55:47 <jsled> Not with "full" GObjects, right now
15:55:51 <esoda1> I see.
15:56:15 <jsled> But, yes, one could have a Qt (or HTML or whatever) frontend that used the existing engine, sure.
15:56:30 <jsled> In fact, the GTK front-end is the second front-end, after a historical Motif f/e.
15:56:40 <jsled> And there was an XML-RPC front-end for a brief period.
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16:00:15 <esoda1> Ok, if you want I'll say you the repository I'll commit my work, and hope to find a way to communicate better my ideas
16:00:24 <esoda1> see you...
16:00:34 <jsled> esoda1: take care.
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16:02:58 <hansfbaier> Hi, I want to add support for mixed-currency-files in the qif-import, can you give me a clue where to add it?
16:03:26 <hansfbaier> Or how to get started.................
16:03:44 <hansfbaier> I know where the scheme files for the import are,
16:03:58 <hansfbaier> but have no real overview yet since the import method
16:04:12 <hansfbaier> seems to be one biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig multi-page function.
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16:18:06 <chris> AFAIK, swig only wraps C, C++.
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16:36:06 <warlord> chris: yes indeed.
16:36:38 <warlord> hansfbaier: you can think of the import process as a multi-step process. Each "page" does one step of the import.
16:42:11 <zwobbl> jsled: i've solved it! gwen was 2.4... upgraded to 2.6 and i get the hbci menu items
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16:59:41 <warlord> zwobbl: cool
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19:11:50 <andrewsw> huh. run a report, click options, change something, change focus to main window, select a different tab, focus on options window, click ok and wait...
19:11:59 <andrewsw> report won't run until you click on the report's tab again.
19:17:11 <jsled> right. because it's done as a function of the reports html rendering, which isn't done if the tab isn't visible...
19:17:45 <jsled> (yet another reason to separate data rendering from visual rendering)
19:18:24 <andrewsw> yeah. I read your mail on that BTW.
19:18:33 <andrewsw> its way more than I can wrap my head around ATM.
19:18:45 <andrewsw> but I'm willing to help if given discrete pieces to do.
19:19:08 <jsled> I hear ya'.
19:19:23 <jsled> I just really need to find a bit of time to get past the first hurdle with the options.
19:19:33 <andrewsw> what is that hurdle?
19:19:56 <jsled> Proof of concept on converting them to C with scheme wrappers.
19:20:12 <jsled> Plus, there's just a lot of boilerplate code to emit to do GObject. :/
19:20:28 <andrewsw> okay, then you can swigify them and use whatever you want to access them?
19:20:32 <jsled> right.
19:21:04 <andrewsw> I didn't realise the option code was all in scheme. (never looked).
19:21:09 <jsled> I mean, I know it'll work. It's more finding the time to work through the details of the first instance.
19:21:22 <jsled> After that, (most of) the rest should come pretty quickly.
19:21:41 <jsled> Plus, there'll need to be some new stuff to serialize them as XML (or whatever).
19:21:55 <warlord> XML or even KeyFile.
19:22:03 <warlord> (but XML is probably better)
19:22:03 <andrewsw> yeah, when you say that my brain is lost.
19:22:29 <andrewsw> OT, I'm going back to school this winter to finish CS. maybe I can become actually helpful.
19:22:35 <jsled> keyfile maybe ... but it'd need to be keyfile+$something.
19:23:00 <jsled> A good example is color options; they serialize in scheme as a list of rgb values.
19:23:16 <jsled> So, we need the $something to provide the "list" primitive.
19:23:34 <jsled> JSON would be great for this, but we don't do it anywhere else.
19:24:15 <jsled> andrewsw: Oh, nice. (though you're already helpful. :)
19:24:27 <andrewsw> here's a new one on me: Error printing, too many failed attempts.
19:24:33 <andrewsw> jsled: thanks.
19:24:37 <andrewsw> I'm excited.
19:25:34 <jsled> Though yajl <http://lloydforge.org/projects/yajl/> is only about 2169 lines of C (modulo test cases, other project noise)
19:26:39 <jsled> andrewsw: what/where is that error from?
19:27:50 <andrewsw> printing a check from the register, 2.2.1 debian.
19:28:03 <andrewsw> its gone now. I think it was something on my system, not gnucash
19:29:26 <andrewsw> it was a dialog that popped up a few seconds after printing. I think cups wasn't responding for some reason.
19:35:15 <andrewsw> later guys.
19:35:59 <jsled> andrewsw: take care
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20:53:18 <poet_imp> anybody got the patience for a noob question that has probably been asked a million times before?
20:54:08 <jsled> just ask it, and you'll find out. :)
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20:54:31 <jsled> Although if you really think it is, then maybe peruse the <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ>?
20:54:47 <poet_imp> Just testing the water to see if anybody was listening
20:54:56 <poet_imp> Been to the FAQ and am Googled out
20:55:16 <poet_imp> I see lost of discussion on Direct Connect online banking
20:55:28 <poet_imp> I am looking for a how-to on "web connect"
20:56:45 <jsled> Maybe <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Setting_up_OFXDirectConnect_in_GnuCash_2> is better then? I don't use this functionality, so I can't really help too much.
20:57:59 <poet_imp> If I understand Direct connect it communicates directly with the bank.
20:58:20 <poet_imp> If I can comapre with Q. I have two ways to get info from the bank
20:58:31 <poet_imp> One is direct, and the other is fia a web download
20:58:43 <poet_imp> One cost me money (direct) and the other is free
20:59:02 <poet_imp> So I am interested in the Web Connect because of the price tag
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21:00:23 <poet_imp> If there is a better way, though, I am open to learning new tricks
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21:07:38 <poet_imp> Never mind... All I had to do was give up and I figured it out
21:07:52 <poet_imp> Web Connec = .qfx files
21:07:59 <poet_imp> They import quite nicely
21:08:27 <jsled> heh.
21:08:35 * jsled makes a mental note
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