2007-10-08 GnuCash IRC logs

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01:19:10 <basanta> wanted to ask the question in the mailing list but the mailing list registration page seems to be not working so here I so, sorry for the mess
01:19:15 <basanta> I am using debian 4.0 stable. I am using gnucash version 2.0.5-1 and gnucash-docs version 2.0.1-1.
01:19:16 <basanta> i am trying to learn using the tutorials.
01:19:16 <basanta> I was following the tutorial chapter 4.2.2. But gnucash doesn't seem to do exactly what is written. When entering federal tax, medicare and social security, as I enter the tax amounts in the deposit column it doesn't stick there and instead gets deducted and gets transferred into withdrawal section. Is it also a bug as it is written there in this section?
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01:43:31 <dave> Sorry to jump right in, but does anyone here want to help me decide whether the problem I've just had is recoverable, or if I'm about to have a very angry wife?
01:45:33 <dave> Summary: was running Debian testing, with GnuCash pre-2.2.1 (I assume) -- all was well with a GnuCash file several months old. Just upgraded to latest Debian testing, and GnuCash 2.2.1 -- opened the file, and I've got a bunch of groups that had dollar amounts, but now have $0.00, and moved to the wrong place (with and without values, such as three Dining out expense groups suddenly listed as...
01:45:35 <dave> ...assets.)
01:46:37 <dave> [will stay in channel, but may be asleep when you respond. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.]
02:01:36 <dave> FYI: GnuCash version 2.0.5-1_i386 was my previously-installed version, now have 2.2.1-1_i386 installed. Additional problems exist, including (but not limited to) new incoming checks showing up as two entries instead of one.
02:06:50 <dave> (final note, and now i'm going to reconcile my bank accounts my hand and go to bed -- downgrading to 2.0.5 didn't solve the problem.)
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03:13:34 <dave> (one more item to add to my problem ... downgrading to as low as 2.0.2 (with and without a purge, including my homedir gconf gnucash config files) doesn't help, and going back to older backups of the file displays the same problem. Hmm.)
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08:46:37 <jsled> dave: I've never heard of such corruption in a datafile before, with respect to accounts being re-parented in ways that don't make sense.
08:46:57 <jsled> Do the accounts have transactions in them? Just no/incorrect balances?
08:47:27 <jsled> When you say "new incoming checks", what do you mean?
08:47:42 <jsled> (incoming via what mechanism?)
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10:51:51 <dave> In answer to jsled: some accounts have transactions, and others do not; where there are transactions, they are incorrect. By "new incoming checks", I mean when I import an OFX file with check transactions, I get two line items each; both have the same amount, in the same column.
10:53:17 <dave> I agree it's extremely odd; since I experience the same problem with older versions of the file, and experience the same problems when I've purged and downgraded to 2.0.5 and 2.0.2, I can only assume GnuCash itself isn't the problem -- but that something GnuCash relies on was upgraded as part of my apt-get upgrade, and that item is causing the problem.
10:53:58 <dave> Speculation: perhaps a convertor or translator or something driving encoding that GnuCash relies on is now parsing my files differently/incorrectly? Pure speculation, though.
10:54:31 <dave> (off to tend to the children)
11:02:20 <warlord> dave: it sounds like you're importing the transaction and assigning the account back to itself, so that you're crediting and debiting the same account.
11:03:38 <warlord> So instead of assigning the appropriate income/expense acocunt, you're assigning the check back to the asset account htat you're importing.
11:04:28 <dave> You would think so, although that wouldn't explain why both entries are in the same column (not one in credit and one in debt). Opening the file to look right now, to make sure the same account isn't assigned.
11:06:48 <warlord> And in those two entries in the register, what's listed in the Transfer Account column?
11:10:05 <dave> I just re-imported the OFX file into a version of the GnuCash file that didn't have them yet, and the check transactions are in as expected -- so let's assume there was never a problem with check importing, and that I made a mistake while distracted by the original problem.
11:10:28 <dave> Sorry about the red herring, there. So that leaves the issue of accounts suddenly going arwy. Here's a specific set of examples:
11:10:52 <dave> Previously, had "Assets", under which was "Current Assets", under which were four accounts.
11:11:30 <dave> NOw, have "Assets", under which is "Current Assets" (with sub-accounts as expected), but also "Foo", "Bar", and "Boo", each of which used to be an account under "Expenses: Dining"
11:12:20 <dave> "Foo" has one transaction totalling $25.46, "Bar" has one transaction totalling $5.90", and "Boo" has no transactions.
11:12:21 <warlord> What account-types are Foo, Bar, and Boo?
11:12:52 <dave> They are showing as account type "Asset", but they were not this type previously.
11:13:09 <dave> I have an idea. Hold on.
11:14:47 <dave> The vast majority of oddball accounts I'm seeing have a $0 balance.
11:15:06 <dave> Only a handful have a balance at all, and they're one transaction each (from Assets: current assets: checking)
11:15:45 <dave> Perhaps I previously had an option set to hide accounts with a zero balance, and that's now set differently after the upgrade, so I'm seeing tons of empty accounts for that reason?
11:15:53 <warlord> I've never heard of accounts moving around like that or spontaneously changing account type.
11:15:55 <dave> Which would mean I only have a few problem accounts.
11:16:03 <dave> Can you advise how to hide zero-balance accounts?
11:16:12 <warlord> Yes, there IS an option to hide zero-balance accounts.
11:16:16 <warlord> Edit -> Preferences
11:17:12 <dave> Under edit->preferences, I've just gone through all the tabs, and don't see the option. Do you know which tab it's under?
11:17:16 <jsled> Uh, View > Filter By in the account tree
11:17:58 <warlord> Oh, oops. sorry.
11:18:00 <warlord> my bad.
11:18:01 <dave> Awesome, another red herring! SO that leaves the final issue, with these two accounts.
11:18:38 <dave> I'm going to switch them back to the old account type, and not worry about it. THe idea that I had a sudden explosion of 30+ accounts was overwhelming...the idea that I have 2 oddball accounts to deal with is relaxing. ;)
11:19:05 <warlord> I've never heard of spontaneous account-type or account-parent migration.
11:19:08 <dave> Thank you both for your help, I very much appreciate it.
11:19:29 <dave> Me neither, warlord. It's absolutely throwing me for a loop. I know my wife doesn't touch the linux partition.
11:20:05 <dave> And since this issue manifests even on older accounts (going back months) I know it's not just a matter of me not noticing -- I'd have had to be blind to this obviously wrong condition for months.
11:20:31 <dave> I can only think it's not random, but an issue with encoding or somesuch.
11:20:46 <dave> But if the damage is limited to a few accounts, I can work around it. Thanks again!
11:21:43 <warlord> Well, if you by chance have multiple accounts with the same GUID I suppose it could happen.
11:21:47 <warlord> But that's justso unlikely.
11:23:56 <dave> I agree.
11:24:06 <dave> And I'm not completely discounting the possibility that I'm smoking crack.
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11:25:01 <dave> I can only say that my confidence level is *extremely* high that these two accounts did not previously exist under "assets", UNLESS they were accidentally created months ago in the wrong area, but for some reason remained hidden (despite non-zero balances) unti the 2.2.1 upgrade.
11:25:03 <warlord> Maybe a long long time ago you created those accounts?
11:26:27 <dave> That sounds reasonable, doesn't it? That the bug isn't the moving of the accounts, but there was a previously-existing preferences-related bug hiding the two non-zero accounts I'd accidentally created, and the 2.2.1 upgrade fixed that preferences bug (By resetting my preferences, I assume, since my preference to hide zero-accounts was reset as well)?
11:26:42 <dave> Let's assume that is the problem -- it seems the simplest answer.
11:28:54 <dave> In case some other random person ever has this issue again (probably manifesting in the resetting of the zero-account hiding preference on 2.2.1 upgrade), I originally set up with 2.0.2-2.1, then to 2.0.2-3, then upped to 2.0.5-1, then 2.2.1-1. Hopefully this will be useful -- or better, not useful because nobody else has this problem. :)
11:29:36 <dave> Thank you again. I couldn't be happier that this turned out to be a teeny tiny issue (exacerbated by my own incompetence) and my confidence in GnuCash has been restored.
11:29:43 <dave> (back to the kids; have a good day.)
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13:47:06 <roxy_> is GnuCash 2.2.1 Built 2007-09-15 from r16462 particularly unstable? It froze on me for the second time today. First time it happens in over 3 years, using debian testing pacakge.
13:48:05 <jsled> not particularly, no.
13:48:26 <jsled> Is the freeze occurring at any particular point?
13:49:27 <roxy_> yes, cursor is on a date. It is frozen atm, so if I can give any debug log, let me know.
13:49:45 <jsled> In the register?
13:50:07 <jsled> On a terminal, I'd determine the gnucash pid.
13:50:15 <jsled> Then run gdb, and "attach $pid"
13:50:26 <jsled> Then, you can get a backtrace of where it's stuck.
13:50:39 <jsled> maybe not a useful backtrace, but one all the same.
13:51:02 * jsled preemptively suggests http://pastebin.ca/, if you do have more than a line to paste...
13:51:27 <warlord> I've never seen this kind of freeze..
13:51:36 <warlord> My guess -- dialog pop-behind?
13:51:40 * jsled neither
13:52:37 <jsled> Oh, maybe. Also, roxy_, what window manager?
13:53:15 <warlord> could also be beryl.
13:56:29 <roxy_> I am using kde
13:57:45 <roxy_> find / -name "*pid" didn't find gnucash pid.
13:58:18 <jsled> roxy_: ps axuwwf |grep "gnucash-bin"
13:58:27 <jsled> (there's no pid file)
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14:18:44 <roxy_> http://rafb.net/p/pIB2qn18.html
14:19:01 <roxy_> btw, is there a way I can save the data ?
14:19:50 <jsled> As it's hung?
14:19:52 <jsled> No.
14:19:58 <jsled> So, are you at the gdb prompt?
14:20:04 <jsled> Can you issue "backtrace"?
14:21:00 <roxy_> http://rafb.net/p/C7GNy398.html
14:23:20 <chris> looks like a modal dialog to me.
14:23:36 <jsled> roxy_: are you sure there's no dialog somewhere behind the window?
14:23:46 <jsled> Maybe it's off-screen?
14:25:47 <roxy_> duh. yes there is. stupid me.
14:26:03 <jsled> Hmm. Stupid something, but not you.
14:26:51 <jsled> The UI shouldn't appear hung. But by it's nature, the window manager should never allow that blocking modal dialog to go anywhere except right in front of you.
14:28:17 <roxy_> jsled: so a kde issue ?
14:28:32 <jsled> It's hard to say.
14:29:10 <jsled> GnuCash (or some library gnucash uses) might not give the right hints/flags when the dialog is created.
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14:38:40 <eauxnguyen> hi all. using gnucash 2.02 trying to print invoice to letterhead. The invoice # etc prints over top of logo. How can I move the top of the printed invoice down?
14:44:49 <warlord> First, you should upgrade to 2.0.5 or 2.2.x -- 2.0.2 is very buggy.
14:44:58 <warlord> Second, it's 2.0.2, not 2.02
14:45:39 <warlord> Third, there's not a goot way to move the top of the invoice down without editing the invoice.scm driver to add extra space, but then it would probably go off the bottom of the page.
14:46:01 <jsled> Would adding a header image of the appropriate spacing (to the stylesheet) do the trick?
14:46:11 <warlord> mmmm... maybe?
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14:57:27 <eauxnguyen> jsled: I tried adding a blank headr image and it prints that image as what appears to be a smashed image about half the original size in black ink.
14:57:38 <jsled> ick.
14:58:00 <warlord> BIAB
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14:58:12 <roxy_> thanks for your help, and thanks for making gnucash :-)
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14:58:40 <eauxnguyen> I will upgrade to the new build and see what I get. It worked when the invoice only had one line item so
14:59:04 <eauxnguyen> thanks jsled et al for the help. Much appreciated.
14:59:52 <eauxnguyen> thanks warlord for the guidance on versions
15:05:34 <jsled> eauxnguyen: another option would be to edit the invoice.scm file and insert a few <br>s at the top to add some spacing.
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16:31:06 <eauxnguyen> jsled: oops forgot to set myself afk. I will try that jsled thanks
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17:36:29 <andi5> Q: any objections to the search dialog glade change i posted to -devel yesterday?
17:37:26 <warlord> I haven't looked at it, but it's probably fine.
17:37:37 <andi5> hehe
17:37:41 <warlord> (and I'll let you know if it's not after it goes in. ) ;)
17:38:45 <andi5> warlord: i guess you already have a draft for your commit reply and ask-for-rollback email? ;-)
17:39:10 <warlord> heheh.. actually, no.
17:39:25 <warlord> i'm getting more lax in my old age
17:39:35 <andi5> lol
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17:59:04 <andi5> good news, someone is actually tackling one of our main gconf bugs :)
18:00:12 <warlord> Yeah, I noticed.. I've been seeing the bugzilla email.
18:00:27 <jsled> which one?
18:00:45 <andi5> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=363648
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18:12:28 <warlord> wb.
18:12:34 <andi5> :)
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19:38:15 <dorky> I've been reading through the design documents, API documentation, etc. with an eye toward implementing a couple of things.
19:38:28 <dorky> And some hard questions have been coming to mind.
19:39:19 <dorky> First, the scheduled transactions can contain formula, which is a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice to have some way to refer to the other splits in a transaction?
19:39:48 <jsled> perhaps ... it's not come up, yet.
19:40:03 <dorky> The problem with that is of course that there's no user-visible "row number" that we can refer to (Hey! it LOOKS like a spreadsheet, why doesn't it work like one?)
19:40:08 <jsled> that is, I've not heard of an enhancement that needs that.
19:41:10 <dorky> Paycheck entry is a simple example. So is tracking sales tax. Both would vastly benefit from a template that contained spreadsheet like formulas.
19:41:41 <jsled> hmm. in a way that the ad-hoc variables and formula don't handle?
19:42:31 <dorky> But there's not any simple way to do that - do you include the full account specifier in the formula? a split number (number them 1-x, alphabetically) etc. Anything that can be done is going to be an artificial imposition.
19:42:46 <dorky> In theory, no, you can do it with ad-hoc variables.
19:43:03 <jsled> Perhaps a more complete example of what it would look like?
19:43:29 <dorky> In practise, if you mean "the net deposited amount is equal to the gross amount minus the various taxes etc that are withheld" it easier.
19:43:59 <jsled> "gross - (tax1 + tax2 + tax3)"
19:44:00 <jsled> ?
19:44:19 <jsled> I guess I see.
19:44:32 <dorky> net: @1 - ( @2 + @3 + @4)
19:44:39 <jsled> Each credit/debit cell needs to contain the entire formula from its POV, rather than just being some form of relative reference.
19:44:48 <jsled> But ... no, it does't.
19:44:53 <jsled> doesn't, even.
19:45:11 <dorky> or "net: @income:wages - ( @taxes:fica + @taxes:state)
19:45:48 <dorky> Yes, that's the point - if there was a simple way to refer to the contents of another "cell" (split) then it would be very doable.
19:46:01 <jsled> it's as-doable now.
19:46:16 <jsled> If you refer to the cell as "taxes_fica" or "@1" or "relative-split('taxes-fica')", it's the same thing.
19:46:33 <jsled> As some point you need to bind that other split to the label.
19:46:38 <dorky> Not easily. It's hard enough (espeically given the lack of easily testable recreation of scheduled transactions) that I gave up.
19:46:47 <jsled> Huh?
19:47:01 <dorky> I was unable to make it automatically balance.
19:47:29 <dorky> Even with "gross - (exact formulas in all taxes spilts)" it didn't work.
19:47:51 <jsled> Hmm. I mean, it really is the same thing.
19:48:02 <dorky> I have no idea why, and I shouldn't need to know - because I can't say what I mean.
19:48:07 <dorky> It is - almost.
19:48:24 <dorky> Maybe a "label" for a split?
19:48:54 <jsled> Just putting the string "tax1", "tax2", "tax3" into the credit or debit cells of the other splits is equivalent to "labeling" them.
19:49:07 <dorky> As part of it's formula, it's prefixed with "$label$" And then that ad-hoc variable is bound to the final value (rounded even) of that split.
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19:49:48 <jsled> How is that different from the split's cell being only the string "label"?
19:49:56 <dorky> Sort of - if you make the formula a simple ad-hoc variable, then the user is prompted for a value (as opposed to calculating it)
19:51:46 <jsled> Right. Sort of. For simple sums, they are equivalent.
19:52:08 <dorky> Anyway, I didn't really expect a final answer as to the appropriate way to do this, I was wanting to hear what you thought about it. It seems to me to be consistent with what exists to do something to make the scheduled transaction editor behave more like a spreadsheet - and the ability to refer to other cells in your calculations is the only missing item.
19:52:37 <dorky> I also wanted to ask about managing inventory and automobile data.
19:53:03 <jsled> Read another way, if you were having problems with a formula of the form "gross - (tax1 + tax2 + tax3)", making the SXes more complex isn't going to solve your problem. :)
19:53:19 <dorky> Is it appropriate to have each inventory item be an account of type "inventory" with a commodity specialized to that particular inventory item?
19:53:20 <jsled> Go for it...
19:54:55 <dorky> Is it appropriate to somehow flag an account as "automobile" --- you would then store extra data with each split in that account, data such as milage, volumne (of gasoline purchased) and various flags to say "this was an oil change / tire rotation / 50Kmile service etc"
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19:55:38 <dorky> The extra data would require an additional cursor, with it's cells, that would show up only when viewing splits that belong to such an account.
19:56:02 <dorky> I was thinking they'd show up right under the split, as an extra row (or maybe two....)
19:57:01 <dorky> That's much beyond my current abilities, probably the labels for scheduled transactions (and the ability to use scheduled transactions as a template to be entered on command) would be a better place to start.
19:57:53 <dorky> But with the auto stuff, I was reading that a (major?) rewrite of the register code was planned - was that done in 2.2.1?
19:58:15 <dorky> Or am I totally off the wall here?
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19:59:20 <warlord> It's not in 2.2
19:59:29 <warlord> it's not in trunk -- it's on the register-rewrite branch.. not finished.
19:59:59 <dorky> Oh. So there's no point in my spending lots of time studying that area of the code right now.
20:00:03 <jsled> I've wanted similar "auto" details myself, forever.
20:00:17 <jsled> Well, you could study the register-rewrite branch. :)
20:00:53 <jsled> Separating the SX templates out from the SXes themselves would be nice; integrating that with the autocomplete would be even nicer.
20:01:00 <dorky> I'd have to check it out. I haven't gotten as far as actually compiling the C code yet, just downloaded it from the debian package and going through it.
20:01:06 <jsled> Or, some first-order notion of "template transactions".
20:01:37 <dorky> I think that scheduled transactions (with formulas) are close enough to a first-order notion of "template transactions"
20:01:58 <jsled> Ah. Getting the build environment going – especially for GnuCash – is an important first step.
20:02:07 <dorky> In fact, would all that would be needed be to add a "template only" type in addition to "daily" "bi-weekly" etc?
20:02:21 <warlord> it would be nice to get account_balance_as_of_date(acct, SX-post-date) working for SXes!
20:02:49 <jsled> dorky: Uh, from a ui perspective that's a bit wrong.
20:03:27 <jsled> And I think feature wise the existing SX template txns would be about right ... it's more having a place in the UI to go to CRUD named templates.
20:03:42 <jsled> (and responding to account deletion events, &c.)
20:03:54 <jsled> Also, some register UI hookup to create a txn from said templates.
20:04:00 <jsled> (independent from SXes)
20:04:34 <dorky> What you say is indeed correct.
20:04:45 <dorky> But that's just the UI. :)
20:05:27 <jsled> Well, systems code is easy. App code is hard.
20:05:47 <dorky> The functionality is 100% covered by adding (somewhere in the UI, and I agree that where is important, it's just not important right now) the ability to add a SX NOW.
20:06:12 <jsled> Except, there's nothing scheduled about it.
20:06:38 <jsled> That's what I mean by "first-order". It's a stand-alone feature, not a mis-use of the SXes.
20:06:51 <jsled> In fact, the SXes would then use the templating subsystem.
20:07:39 <dorky> Right you are. But the template subsystem would be "windowed" into the bottom of the scheduled transaction editor - it would look the same as it does now.
20:08:10 <jsled> something like that, yeah. It would probably look exactly the same.
20:08:23 <dorky> Then there would be another access to the template subsystem, with a checkbox for "show scheduled TX" which is normally unchecked.
20:09:19 <dorky> That'd be for editing only, to make one, it'd probably be a action item from the transaction menu, maybe even with a sub-menu listing known templates.
20:09:37 <dorky> That wasn't very coherent.
20:09:49 <jsled> Oh, I'd probably not even show the SX-related usages of the templates in its editor.
20:09:50 <dorky> I mean it'd be for creating templates only.
20:10:09 <jsled> Yeah. The templates created by the SX are "private", I'd imagine.
20:10:17 <dorky> I think it'd be nice to have the ability to see all the templates together, if desired.
20:10:37 * jsled shrugs
20:10:53 <dorky> But is the UI complexity of an extra checkbox on the screen worth it?
20:11:15 <dorky> Sigh. Maybe not. In fact, the more I think about it the worse it sounds.
20:11:18 <jsled> As opposed to just not showing them? no. :)
20:11:37 <dorky> You're right.
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20:13:23 <dorky> So: Labels, account_balance_as_of(account,date/date_of_schx), create_now in transaction menu, with a schX transcation type of "not scheduled" thats shown only in a seperate templates table,
20:13:27 <dorky> Missing anything?
20:13:57 <jsled> Hmm.
20:14:08 <jsled> There's already a "not scheduled" type.
20:14:22 <dorky> What? (checks)
20:14:35 <jsled> dorky: what version?
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20:15:01 <jsled> I continue to insist that making "not scheduled" SXes just for templates is the more expedient but wrong path.
20:15:29 <jsled> 2.2.1 you say? That's latest stable.
20:15:46 <jsled> The key distinction is 2.0 vs 2.2 ... I think the "not scheduled" only came about in 2.2.
20:15:47 <dorky> If the complexity is hidden from the user, is the difference significant?
20:16:00 <jsled> Actually, there's both a "none" frequency and an "enabled" bit on SXes in 2.2
20:16:05 <jsled> Yes, it is.
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20:17:03 <dorky> I'll have to look deeper I guess.
20:17:09 <dorky> What do you think about inventory?
20:19:19 <warlord> I haven't thought might about inventory.. There are several aspects to it. There's just keeping inventory, which is rather straightforward.. But then there's the purchase and "sale" of inventory, and how that integrates into the rest of gnucash.. and THAT's more complicated.
20:19:50 <jsled> How much of that is just better lots?
20:20:00 <rboyd> does gnucash have a services (soap/xml-rpc/rest) layer? I don't think it does, but I saw an ORBit dependency, so maybe architecturally it's not a big stretch?
20:20:02 * jsled hasn't even thought about inventory.
20:20:25 <jsled> rboyd: no, it does't have a network interface. The ORBit dep is a transitive gnome dep, that's all.
20:20:29 <warlord> rboyd: nope. ORBit is only used through our gconf dep
20:20:35 <rboyd> gotcha
20:20:45 <jsled> rboyd: it'd not be a large leap, but it'd be a new UI ... as complex as one wants it.
20:21:03 <warlord> jsled: Um.... I dont know if COGS is just a "better Lots"..
20:21:24 <jsled> I mean, it'd be a day project to get, say, an HTTP server that exposed engine API over a loaded datafile.
20:21:40 <warlord> jsled: using what HTTP/SOAP API?
20:21:50 <warlord> is there a Swig -> SOAP interface?
20:22:01 <jsled> I'm not sure. That'd be interesting, though.
20:22:15 <jsled> Either raw/custom HTTP or some XML-RPC thing.
20:22:31 <jsled> Not the complete engine API.
20:22:42 <jsled> Just a couple of pieces, as a proof of concept.
20:25:22 <rboyd> I'm pretty interested in a services layer for gnucash. and the database interface in general I guess.
20:25:30 <rboyd> anything that makes it easier to integrate gnucash into the enterprise
20:25:47 <warlord> gnucash really isn't aimed at an enterprise..
20:25:52 <warlord> have you looked at GnuE?
20:26:00 <rboyd> no, what is it
20:26:06 <warlord> google is your friend
20:26:13 <warlord> "Gnu Enterprise"
20:26:55 <rboyd> ah cool
20:27:19 <warlord> gnucash really is just a "quicken/quickbooks" like system.
20:27:30 <warlord> It's not trying to be peachtree or sage or the like.
20:27:43 <warlord> would you consider quickbooks to be an enterprise app?
20:27:55 <rboyd> not really, but I haven't used it too much
20:28:01 <warlord> me either.
20:28:07 <warlord> It's really more for SBHB.
20:28:45 <rboyd> I just run a little one-man consulting shop, so all of the A/R and invoicing stuff in gnnucash works great for me
20:28:55 <rboyd> but looking towards future growth, I can see easily outgrowing it
20:30:16 <rboyd> what's the state of the union on the tax modules? I haven't checked them out too much yet. will they make my life easier?
20:31:22 <warlord> "tax modules"?
20:32:04 <rboyd> heh
20:32:10 <rboyd> for lack of better words
20:32:14 <rboyd> tax functionality
20:32:16 <rboyd> how's that
20:32:52 <rboyd> does gnucash have any knowledge of how to interpret federal or state tax code?
20:33:34 <jsled> no re: tax code. There's TXF codes that you can assign to accounts, which imply certain reporting about transactions relating to those accounts.
20:33:48 <jsled> But it doesn't know the lines and formula of the 1040A or anything.
20:35:32 <rboyd> how long have you guys been working on gnucash?
20:36:36 <chris> rboyd: we whipped it up last weekend. :)
20:37:30 <chris> seriously, I think GnuCash is 10 years old this month.
20:38:55 <warlord> Something like that. I first started paying attention in '99.. my first patch was late 99 or early 2000.
20:39:06 <warlord> cstim and I joined around the same time, give or take.
20:39:16 <jsled> I've been affiliated for maybe 6 years, I think.
20:39:16 <rboyd> cool
20:39:16 <rboyd> I haven't really kicked the tires too much, but I was reading that one of the core modules is implemented in scheme.. what is that module responsible for?
20:39:16 <jsled> scheme's used primarily for the reports and QIF importer, at this point.
20:39:16 <chris> Oh my, long ago.
20:39:54 <jsled> there's some annoying round-tripping between C and scheme when you copy/paste transactions in the register.
20:40:05 <jsled> And some misc code here and there.
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20:40:17 <chris> I'm new around here: sometime in 2004.
20:40:22 <jsled> Also, I think some price-quotes handling, but very little else left.
20:40:39 <warlord> I thought the price quotes were all C and PERL now?
20:40:56 <jsled> could be.
20:41:04 <rboyd> does that mean you're trying to decommission the scheme component?
20:41:16 <rboyd> confusewd
20:41:17 <warlord> some people are.
20:41:17 <jsled> Personally, yes.
20:41:38 <warlord> certainly trying to rewrite more into C, because it's easier to maintain and more people understand it and can program in it.
20:41:43 <warlord> (and it's MUCH MUCH easier to debug)
20:41:52 <chris> I'd love to drop guile.
20:42:10 <rboyd> is there any c++ in the trunk
20:42:16 <warlord> very little.
20:42:24 <chris> I don't know of any at all.
20:42:33 <warlord> hooks to libofx.
20:43:17 <chris> there are no .cpp file.
20:43:28 <warlord> Oh. huh. ok.
20:44:50 <warlord> i sit corrected.
20:48:26 <chris> I would estimate there's about 1/2 as much scheme present as there was in 2004.
20:48:47 <chris> At least in terms of functional areas.
20:49:35 <warlord> I'd believe that
20:49:50 <warlord> qif and reports are the major parts left.
20:50:21 <rboyd> poor scheme =(
20:50:45 <warlord> nobody love it anymore.
20:52:15 <jsled> I continue to believe that the problem is more one of an "impedence mismatch" ... something as low-level as C and high-level as scheme just don't get along, unless the interaction is very specific.
20:52:56 <jsled> FWIW, I've started to audit the code for the options, to move them entirely into C.
20:53:21 <chris> Well, the problem has multiple aspects, but that's probably one of them.
20:53:28 <jsled> Oh, totally.
20:54:15 <jsled> I chose that because that's the one place (~/.gnucash/saved-reports-$ver and ~/.gnucash/books/[...]) where we really need guile at runtime.
20:54:38 <jsled> The reports, we could substitute them from scheme to C behind the scenes (i.e., between a 2.2 and 2.4, say).
20:54:56 <jsled> But we serialize that scheme, and the way we do, it really does need to be eval'ed appropriately.
20:55:15 <jsled> So, the idea is to eval them into C, then write them back as XML or something.
20:55:21 <jsled> Something language-netural.
20:55:36 <warlord> That would be nice.
20:55:37 <chris> Yeah. That's be great.
20:55:39 <jsled> Then, we'd at least be open to drop the guile dep (with a lot more work)
20:55:57 <warlord> Especially if there's a dictionary mapping so we can change the name without invalidating the saved state.
20:56:47 <jsled> warlord: Right... the goal would be to have existing saved/open reports (the same thing, basically) just continue to work through that change.
20:57:19 <jsled> Though it'd be a bit easier if that wasn't the goal, but *shrug*.
20:57:21 <warlord> Well, there's that, but right now it's VERY fragile. You cannot change the /name/ of the option.
20:57:28 <jsled> Ah, I see.
20:57:33 <warlord> (or the name of the report, for that matter)
20:58:04 <jsled> yeah, that named-based-identity (for reports, anyways) was as the top of my "problems with reporting to be addressed" list.
20:58:17 <warlord> HEHEH..
20:58:32 <warlord> I'd really love to see MOST of the reports templatized.
20:58:37 <warlord> (invoices are top of my list there)
20:59:02 <warlord> Like I have any time to hack on gnucash anymore. :(
20:59:22 <warlord> I barely have time to work on picking out choices to rebuild. my kitchen
20:59:38 <jsled> yeah, I know. I spend so much time in overhead just coming back up to speed on where I was at.
20:59:48 <jsled> every other week. when I can find an hour. :/
20:59:49 <warlord> I dont even do that!
20:59:54 <warlord> An hour! Wow!
20:59:58 <jsled> heh
21:01:01 <chris> You guys are depressing me.
21:01:19 <warlord> Oh? Why, chris ?
21:01:34 <chris> we're all in the same pitiful boat.
21:01:37 <warlord> Oh, i didn't mention it, but I saw David Hampton in NYC a week ago.
21:01:39 <rboyd> the joys of getting old
21:01:49 <chris> warlord: really?
21:02:00 <warlord> No, I'm kidding. :-P
21:02:00 <chris> how's he doing?
21:02:05 <warlord> He's doing well.
21:02:37 <warlord> I was down there visiting a friend of mine, and she, david, and I got together for lunch, and then went up tothe Cloisters for a Ren Fest.
21:02:54 <warlord> He's been insanely busy, lots of stuff going on, and about 1200 messages behind on gnucash mail.
21:03:21 <chris> I hope he come to hang out here again.
21:03:54 <rboyd> where do you guys live? I'm near St Louis
21:04:05 <warlord> chris: I told him that, too.
21:04:07 <chris> RI
21:04:12 <warlord> rboyd: Boston
21:04:32 <warlord> and even though chris and I are no more than two hours apart, I've still never met him.
21:04:49 <chris> It's true.
21:05:01 <rboyd> I worked in Westford for a time, regrettably never spent much time in the city though
21:05:19 <rboyd> chris: drove through your tiny state too once =)
21:05:54 <warlord> it may be tiny, but parts of it are quite pretty.
21:06:00 <chris> I-95 will do that to you.
21:06:10 <warlord> chris: I was down in PVD for WaterFire on Sept 1.
21:06:30 <chris> how was it? I never made it.
21:06:47 <warlord> It's beautiful. I highly recommend if it you and your wife can go..
21:07:19 <chris> good night to get a babysitter.
21:07:34 <warlord> I've been twice. The first time I went "alone". This time I took someone special. :-D
21:07:39 <warlord> yep!
21:07:42 <warlord> It's very romantic.
21:07:49 <warlord> I'm not sure how far you are from there....
21:08:02 <chris> about 25 mintue.
21:08:05 <chris> minutes.
21:08:32 <warlord> So about half-way across the state. :-D
21:08:38 <warlord> ;)
21:08:57 <warlord> Seriously, we really should just get together some time.
21:09:19 <warlord> (although I dont think I'll have time until spring)
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21:11:23 <chris> yeah, I'm working in PVD some days, too, so it's even closer.
21:12:05 <warlord> True.
21:12:13 <warlord> PVD is only about an hourish.
21:12:21 <kditty> im wondering why everytime i add a deposit transaction, gnucash adds a withdraw transaction right above the deposit leaving me where i was before the deposits were added
21:13:08 <kditty> so lost in this program, i have never really understood ms money or gnucash or anything, im looking to start and keep a budget
21:14:02 <warlord> kditty: what are you using as the transfer account?
21:15:15 <warlord> (my guess is that you're transfering back to yourself)
21:15:39 <kditty> i have one it says imbalance-usd and one that says checking account
21:16:01 <warlord> well, the 'imbalance-usd' means you didn't supply one properly.
21:16:52 <jsled> kditty: http://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.0/C/gnucash-guide/txns-registers1.html#txns-registers-twoaccount2
21:17:03 <warlord> but if you're looking at the checking account register and the transfer account says checking account, then you're pointing the txn back on itself.
21:18:25 <kditty> should i set transfer to income-salary?
21:18:48 <jsled> What kind of deposit is it?
21:19:46 <warlord> kditty: if it's a salary deposit, yes.
21:19:53 <kditty> deposit of cash from salary
21:19:54 <warlord> See the docs.
21:23:31 <kditty> warlord: ive read some of the docs, just trying to get human interaction. im not very good at written instruction and these nerve pills the doc has me on are bad for memory and concentration. what you recommended worked though.
21:23:46 <warlord> Ok
21:23:50 <warlord> :)
21:24:27 <jsled> kditty: The key thing is to keep the "see saw" of double-entry balanced. If one split is going to assets, the other must come from somewhere...
21:24:51 <jsled> If it's income, so it is. Usually, it will be a withdrawl, and the other side will be an Expense.
21:25:23 <jsled> Or, if you're paying down a credit-card, for instance, it'll be an Asset withdrawl against a Liability account.
21:26:44 <kditty> ok thank you
21:27:44 <kditty> so under transfer, i should go ahead and change all of the income-usd to the appropriate transactions?
21:28:41 <warlord> you mean "imbalance-usd"? yes
21:29:50 <kditty> also id like to add expenses:tobacco is there a way to do that? id like to see a figure of how much this is costing me ;x
21:30:00 <warlord> Of course.
21:30:21 <warlord> Create the account, and then use that as the xfer for all tobacco txns .
21:37:41 <jsled> You can create it either from the account tree, or if you just type the new name into the transfer cell, gnucash will prompt you if you want to create it.
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21:43:03 <kditty> ok got that, thanks. i also would like to ask if you guys recommend importing from bank account QIF file or starting fresh? it seems to be a little more confusing to me working with my exported bank info,
21:43:47 <warlord> I would suggest you start fresh on some reasonable date boundary. (i chose Jan 1st)
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21:46:47 <kditty> ok, it seems hard to find help in the help file. the migration guide was empty.
21:47:02 <warlord> "migration guide"?
21:48:31 <kditty> yea in the gnucash help file
21:48:57 <kditty> * A.1. Using Accounts vs. Categories
21:48:57 <kditty> * A.2. Organization of QIF Files (Discussion)
21:48:57 <kditty> * A.3. Common Duplication Issues (Discussion)
21:48:57 <kditty> * A.4. Checking QIF Data (Discussion)
21:48:57 <kditty> * A.5. Converting XML GnuCash File
21:49:15 <kditty> those were all empty, no info in them
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21:50:31 <kditty> what does the "R" mean between transfer and expense? when i click the cell below it turns from and N to a C
21:51:19 <jsled> it's the reconciled column. 'N'o. 'C'leared. ('Y'es, after reconciliation)
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21:53:17 <jsled> kditty: what version of gnucash are you using?
21:54:28 <kditty> 2.0.5
21:55:29 <jsled> Can you verify that A.1. in the migration guide looks like <http://svn.gnucash.org/docs/guide/appendixa_accts_vs_cats1.html> ... or not.
21:55:32 <jsled> What distro?
21:55:49 <jsled> Also, do any other help file sections work?
21:56:56 <kditty> jsled: yes it does look like that, and ubuntu feisty
21:57:11 <kditty> and yes the other help sections work
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22:01:08 <jsled> So, not all of them were empty?
22:01:30 *** Zoolooc_ has quit IRC
22:02:47 <kditty> all of the ones i wanted to read were, but not all of them
22:03:01 <jsled> Ah.
22:03:17 <jsled> Yeah, it's annoying that a couple headings are there, but hte content's just not present. :/
22:03:35 <kditty> ive always been cash on the barrel head type of guy until i got a woman and a kid lol
22:04:08 <jsled> heh
22:04:11 <kditty> i knew what i had, what i owed and never bounced a check because i never had a checking account
22:04:43 *** Rol1 has joined #gnucash
22:05:11 <kditty> now one day i have $400 in the bank and forgot to check if the $140 for childcare cleared yet etc,,,
22:05:54 <kditty> im tired of using calculators and paper and pencil :)
22:06:17 <jsled> well, if things are that tight, then you gotta kick the smoking, I'd say.
22:06:35 <jsled> (amongst other very good reasons, of course)
22:06:58 <kditty> of course
22:07:58 <kditty> thats why id like to see how much im spending on cigs, maybe it will be an eye opener :D
22:08:43 <kditty> so far, within the past week, it is. but daycare is what REALLY scares me lol
22:08:59 <rboyd> can't you just calculate a cost per-cig and count how many you smoke?
22:09:13 *** Zoolooc_ has joined #gnucash
22:09:33 <jsled> yeah ... I always worked out cigs from my habit. 1 pack/day * $5.50/pack * 30 days/month, &c.
22:09:55 <jsled> (It always worked out to be "not very much", but I'm still glad I quit.)
22:10:02 <kditty> wow, 5.50... soon it will be that high here
22:10:34 <kditty> right now $2.00 per pack
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22:11:05 <rboyd> but do you have to look at nasty pictures of decaying lungs on the packagaing?
22:11:21 <kditty> lol no, do they do that where you live?
22:11:33 <jsled> kditty: where's that?
22:11:51 <kditty> kentucky, i live in ohio but go to KY to get smokes
22:11:53 <rboyd> parts of canada?
22:12:01 <kditty> $4 per pack here
22:12:43 <warlord> $4? Not bad at all!
22:12:57 <kditty> they have people who watch you buy them and if you get too many, they will arrest you when you cross state lines
22:13:10 <warlord> jsled: I'm glad you quit, too! ;)
22:13:15 <rboyd> http://no-smoking.org/jan00/01-07-00-3.html
22:13:21 <warlord> hey, jsled .... when's your next CA trip?
22:14:25 <kditty> ohio wants their tobacco tax $$, it helps fund schools and all, but they must not see that the tobacco ban in public and also the fact that most people will quit due to high prices will actually negate what they expect to raise for schooling
22:14:39 <rboyd> http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=canadian+cigarette&m=text
22:15:21 <rboyd> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eychao/26857559/ this one has like, a hole in a human heart
22:15:32 <warlord> well, the tax is also an encouragement to stop smoking, which reduces the public health costs that smokers cost society.
22:15:40 <jsled> warlord: not quite defined, yet ... probably nearly/mid Nov.
22:15:47 <jsled> warlord: do you know, yet?
22:15:47 <warlord> oh..
22:15:56 <warlord> I fly out this saturday.
22:16:19 <warlord> And I'll be back out there the week of Dec 10-14
22:16:43 <jsled> Ah. I was thinking a similar Dec week ... depending on company holiday party, maybe.
22:17:22 <warlord> yeah, not sure when the company holiday party is, but I need to be in Vancouver Dec 2-7, and FL on Dec 16th.
22:17:40 <warlord> (and 21st)
22:17:58 <kditty> thanks for the help guys, i need to get to sleep for the daily grind tomorrow
22:18:04 <kditty> take care
22:18:33 *** Zoolooc__ has quit IRC
22:18:40 <jsled> kditty: you too
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23:58:01 <andrewsw> hi guys, quick question. to 'make install' a new version of a report in a new file, I have to mod the makefile.
23:58:20 <andrewsw> It looks like gncscmmod_DATA is the one to tweak. Am I right? any others?
23:59:02 <andrewsw> sorry. thats in the reports... make installing a new report.