2007-09-05 GnuCash IRC logs

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04:16:53 <joslwah> Hiya. Anyone care to explain to me how to do transfers between bank accounts when the dates of sending and receiving aren't the same?
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04:23:54 <Milbo> hu
04:24:03 <Milbo> Some german people here?
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05:00:19 <cortana> joslwah: the date on the transaction shoudl be the date you instructed the bank to make the transfer
05:00:54 <cortana> i don't believe there is a way to enter the date that the money arrived in the target account... people generally just mark the transaction 'cleared' once it does so
05:12:18 <Milbo> u can make a second konto only for this purpose
05:12:33 <Milbo> Christian stimmig can probably explain it closer
05:13:52 <joslwah> cortana, The problem comes when I'm moving money from one account to another. It least one on one day and is received by the other three days later.
05:20:55 <Milbo> oh your bank is making money with your money over 3 days,. not really correct
05:23:12 <Milbo> But as I said,. .u make another account (within Gnucash) for the money which is transfered,... so if u transfer the money from one account to another. The Money is counted in the special account for transfered money,...
05:23:30 <Milbo> It wont be changed, becaues professionals like it this way (according to the german wiki)
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07:30:03 <Rol1> Is anybody aware of a good XML browser or query tool?
07:30:09 *** Rol1 is now known as Rolf
07:30:51 <Rolf> I am working on the account charts and would like to have something more powerful than a simple text editor
07:31:43 <Rolf> And I would like to query at times the account definition for accounts with account code 1XXX that are not tax relevant and such things.
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08:35:53 <jsled> joslwah: yeah, the recommended way to handle the two transaction is as two transactions, mediated by a "holding" account. There's been a few discussions of the accounting on the gnucash-user mailing list.
08:36:12 <jsled> (I think I've nominated it for a FAQ entry if it doesn't already exist, too.)
08:36:22 <jsled> Rolf: I like nxml-mode in emacs as a editor.
08:36:56 <jsled> In terms of query ... xpath is pretty good for stuff like that, and usually doable in ~1 line in Your Favorite High-Level Language
08:59:10 <jsled> OpenOSX Office 2.0, now with GnuCash ... only $30. :) <http://openosx.com/office/>
09:02:04 <Rolf> jsled: Thank you for the hint. I will try it out.
09:02:24 <Rolf> Is that usually available in the standard emacas package or only as an add-on?
09:02:32 <Rolf> emacs will bring back old memories
09:02:54 <jsled> I believe it's an add-on.
09:03:46 <Rolf> Yes, found it
09:03:56 <Rolf> It is even in a package of that name ;-)
09:09:54 <Rolf> jsled: Do you care to inquire where they host the sources?
09:09:59 <Rolf> :-D
09:10:35 <jsled> Was thinking about it, but I don't really care. :)
09:28:26 <Rolf> jsled: How do you turn on nxml-mode now?
09:28:35 <Rolf> All I got is the file itself and
09:28:39 <Rolf> File local-variables error: (void-function xml-mode)
09:28:42 <jsled> M-x nxml-mode
09:28:43 <Rolf> in the status bar
09:29:13 <Rolf> yep, seems to have worked
09:29:24 <Rolf> but so far I see nothing more than syntax highlighting
09:29:37 * Rolf bothers google for "nxml-mode"
09:29:42 <jsled> It'll do completion and schema validation, as wel.
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09:30:17 <jsled> Rolf: what distro are you using, btw?
09:30:57 <Rolf> ubuntu
09:30:58 <Rolf> edgy
09:51:54 <joslwah> jsled, Thanks. To my mind the problem with the holding account modality is that it hides the cash flow.
09:53:01 <joslwah> why not create a hidable set of virtual accounts for this case? I.e. if you want the two dates to be different it asks whether you want to activate holding accounts and does it for you?
09:53:38 <jsled> Because that's new code?
09:54:32 <joslwah> Yeah, but wouldn't it be useful code?
09:54:38 <jsled> If you're asking how to do it right now, there's only so many ways to model it. If we admit changes to the software, then there's maybe even better ways to do it.
09:54:51 <joslwah> Alternatively have an option, if some people dislike having split dates, to allow/disallow them?
09:55:16 <jsled> Except that complicates everything for a really small number of use cases.
09:55:34 <joslwah> I'm getting it all the time.
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09:55:55 <joslwah> And I've only just started using it. I'm not claiming to be an expert, just seeing what a newbie is hitting.
09:56:56 <jsled> Fair enough.
09:57:52 <joslwah> It may be a UK thing. And I'm getting statements from two different sources. Both are giving income and expenditure but their dates of sending don't match my dates of receiving. At the moment I'm fudging it by claiming their dates are wrong.
09:58:00 <joslwah> But it doesn't seem right.
10:00:15 <joslwah> And my ideal would be to be able to machine parse the statements and enter them into gnucash, then correct the received date when I get my bank statement.
10:01:42 <jsled> The model right now does support a difference between the entry date and the posted date, though the register only exposes one of the dates.
10:01:56 <jsled> There's also a separate reconciled date entry.
10:02:32 <jsled> But that's more for the difference in cash/debit/credit card payments on a single account, not inter-account transfer date differences.
10:03:06 <joslwah> O.k. I'm sure I'm missing something here. Are you saying I can do what I want, just not with the GUI as is, or am I misunderstanding you?
10:04:10 <jsled> It sounds like your use case is the two-different-accounts case, where there's a difference in date when the funds leave one account and enter the other.
10:04:11 <jsled> right?
10:04:23 <joslwah> Correct.
10:05:04 <joslwah> I have multiple placeholder accounts, one for each bank, and one for each statement (roughly)
10:05:16 <joslwah> Then subaccount for each bank account at each bank.
10:05:28 <jsled> (An account for each statement?)
10:05:36 <jsled> <http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2007-July/020940.html> is the top of a thread about this scenario.
10:05:48 <jsled> The summary is to use an "in-transit" or "suspense" account.
10:06:00 <joslwah> No, at different banks I have multiple accounts (long story, but basically savings and check accounts)
10:06:41 <jsled> Sure. I have a similar setup...
10:07:26 <joslwah> Within a bank transfers are instant. Between banks they aren't, and money sent from each of the statement-issuers to a bank has a delay.
10:07:47 <jsled> yup.
10:08:05 <jsled> So, right now there is a way to model that that's perhaps not ideal.
10:08:11 <joslwah> Amusing side comment, for me international transfers are faster than bank to bank in the UK!
10:08:17 <jsled> heh.
10:08:18 <joslwah> Go on...
10:08:28 <jsled> Using the "in-transit" or "suspense" account. :)
10:08:37 <joslwah> Takes 1 day for international, 3 for intra-national.
10:09:13 <joslwah> Yeah, it just feels like it hides things, like where the money is coming/going, unless you create a transit account for each possibility.
10:10:36 <joslwah> From the middle of the thread, it looks like you can have a date of transaction and a different date that it cleared. Is that correct?
10:10:49 <jsled> url?
10:11:11 <joslwah> Hinted at by: http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2007-July/020942.html
10:11:18 <Rolf> jsled: http://xml-copy-editor.sourceforge.net/ looks nice, too
10:11:32 <Rolf> emacs is still calculating validity ;-)
10:11:41 <jsled> Rolf: oh? For what file?
10:12:30 <jsled> joslwah: I think Andrew is speaking somewhat abstractly; though those cleared dates are in the model, they're not exposed via the UI.
10:13:13 <joslwah> Baah, because being exposed would be great, even if it were only able to split the date at reconciliation time.
10:13:24 <joslwah> In fact that would probably be the best time to do it.
10:13:45 <jsled> Well, it's "exposed" via the UI in that it's set when you go through the reconciliation operation... but not visibly.
10:14:02 <joslwah> You mean it doesn't show when you look back at things?
10:14:05 <jsled> And it's not subsequently exposed for read or write, say in the register.
10:14:06 <jsled> Right.
10:14:16 <jsled> The code sets it, and it's in the datafile, but it's not visible anywhere.
10:14:22 <Rolf> jsled: For the SKR04 file.
10:14:29 <joslwah> Why not show the date that the reconciliation decided it happened on, and allow the date to be changed there?
10:14:36 <Rolf> conglomerate completely choked on it.
10:14:51 <joslwah> And this is a genuine question, rather than a "why haven't you done this already"
10:14:53 <Rolf> Taking up oogles of RAM and CPU until I killed it
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10:15:40 <jsled> joslwah: The first thing that comes to mind is that it'd widen even further the already-too-wide register. The obvious response is that it could be an optional/configured/alternate view.
10:15:55 <jsled> But the register resists modification and improvement by being a big spaghetti mess. :/
10:16:18 <jsled> Thus the register-rewrite branch and the Summer of Code project to work on same.
10:16:37 <joslwah> I wasn't suggesting displaying two dates. I was suggesting that the date displayed was a different one.
10:17:55 <jsled> Another issue might be around the workflow or contraints of letting the user muck with the date.
10:18:05 <joslwah> Yeah, I can see that.
10:18:41 <jsled> Rolf: Hmm. That's a simple file, I'm not sure why it would take long to validate at all. What sort of machine do you have?
10:18:54 <jsled> Rolf: what are you looking for in such an editor?
10:19:51 <Rolf> admittedly, this is a very slow machine.
10:20:10 <Rolf> I basically use it as a router and for remote logins to access my file server
10:20:35 <Rolf> I am looking for easier view of the account tree, IOW the xml data
10:20:52 <Rolf> and secondly easier work on the xml data
10:20:54 <joslwah> jsled, I suppose I have a parallel question. Is this a practical problem (coding) or a philosophical one (it _should_ be done the current way)?
10:21:21 <jsled> joslwah: What problem?
10:21:42 <joslwah> Not having split dates.
10:21:47 * Rolf thinks the current requirement for another transit account is just fine as it represents reality, the money is in transit.
10:22:13 <joslwah> Yeah, but reality is notoriously inaccurate. 8-)
10:22:14 <Rolf> could be automatic instead of manual, but that is about it.
10:23:02 <jsled> joslwah: I don't think anyone's said "I think the best way to support the transfers between accounts is to have two unrelated transactions using a transfer account".
10:23:06 <joslwah> Yeah. That was my initial thought. Have an automatic one with potentially hidable transit accounts (one for each pair of accounts that can split dates). Then you can follow the money trail.
10:23:38 <jsled> I think people have said, "that's a sufficiently good solution that I'm not going to invest work in extending gnucash to support a better solution"
10:23:49 <joslwah> jsled, O.k. It was just that reading the thread the view seemed to be philosophical rather than "we can't/don't do it this way atm"
10:23:58 <jsled> Note that you don't really need N² accounts ... a single "transit" account is probably fine.
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10:24:25 <Rolf> jsled: Did I answer your question re what I am looking for?
10:24:34 <joslwah> Yeah, but it hides the cash-flow. I.e. I can't tell easily and quickly from one screen where the money came from/went.
10:24:50 <jsled> Well, it's a -user thread about Accounting that I don't think any devs participated in, so it's a bit "philosophical", I guess.
10:25:01 <Rolf> joslwah: solution is multiple transit accounts
10:25:08 <joslwah> That's useful background information.
10:25:24 <joslwah> Rolf, Yeah, and there shouldn't be too many. But still, a pain to work with.
10:25:41 <Rolf> agreed, less than optimal.
10:25:44 <Rolf> but pain?
10:25:44 <jsled> FWIW, from an implemntation presepctive, it'd might be simpler to just have the two transactions, but link them in some way.
10:25:50 <Rolf> I wouldn't go so far
10:25:55 <jsled> Via a KVP-frame element or something.
10:26:23 <jsled> Rolf: I guess. I'm mostly just curious. Do you want something where you can {,un}fold the structure?
10:30:58 <Rolf> well, xml copy editor provides that
10:31:06 <Rolf> But it is only partially helpful.
10:31:24 <Rolf> I guess what I am looking for as far as output goes is some tabular format.
10:31:30 <Rolf> Like in a spreadsheet
10:31:34 <Rolf> That would be best.
10:31:55 <Rolf> "See the nodes and their attributes easily"
10:32:03 <Rolf> That is my quest.
10:32:30 <Rolf> And possibly compare node A to node B and see if their structure is identical (could be done visually)
10:33:04 <Rolf> jsled: How would I use Xpath?
10:33:44 <Rolf> It seems I cannot find "the associated binary" for xpath.
10:34:28 <jsled> Well, xpath is just a technology. libxml2 provides an implementation.
10:34:41 <jsled> You have two options, I think:
10:35:01 <jsled> use ad-hoc xslt files + `xsltproc` to evaluate them and return the results.
10:35:40 <jsled> use something like python to interactively process a datafile... something like [[[
10:35:41 <jsled> doc = libxml2.parseDoc(gnucash_file)
10:35:41 <jsled> nodes = doc.xpathEval('//path/to/node')
10:35:41 <jsled> for node in nodes:
10:35:41 <jsled> print node.attributes['guid']
10:35:42 <jsled> ]]]
10:36:23 <jsled> Oh, another option is something like XSH <http://xsh.sourceforge.net/> which is just an XML-specific interactive processor.
10:36:54 <jsled> I guess another option is some fancy XML editor that has similar functionality
10:37:19 <jsled> I think oXygen might be useful, there.
10:37:26 <jsled> Oh, it has a "grid editor".
10:39:28 <Rolf> xsh looks interesting
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10:40:28 <Rolf> oxygen is not FOSS :-(
10:40:44 <jsled> Ah, I thought it might not be... sorry.
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10:48:01 <Rolf> no, thanks for suggesting it
10:48:04 <Rolf> It seems slick
10:48:14 <Rolf> But I stay with FOSS whenever possible
10:54:13 <Rolf> jsled: xsh is CPAN. And that seems to want to fiddle with my /usr partition
10:54:21 <Rolf> I'd rather not let it do it.
10:58:04 <Rolf> seems like http://www.yandell-lab.org/cgl/os-notes/Ubuntu.html has some good information on how to deal with that.
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11:12:32 <Rolf> failed at a later point now :-(
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20:20:28 <jsled> heh. http://xkcd.com/312/
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22:55:04 <blahdeblah> Hi. Is there a way to change the customer relating to an invoice after it is created?
22:55:50 <blahdeblah> (Or alternatively, to delete the invoice cleanly so the correct invoice can be created in its place?)
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