2007-08-02 GnuCash IRC logs
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02:26:35 <AltiusBimm> is there a method for adding custom currencies?
02:38:47 <AltiusBimm> is anyone online for that matter ;P
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09:22:55 <jasperbg> hi all. what would be the correct way to represent a bank overdraft in gnucash?
09:23:16 <jasperbg> having -$1000 in an asset account seems wrong :)
09:23:59 <andi5> why that?
09:24:09 <jasperbg> but then again, making a liability account for the o/d means you have to do a *lot* of transfers if you maintain your account in the overdraft all the time (my bank gives interest-free overdrafts to students, so the full value of the overdraft is in a high-interest savings account)
09:24:14 <jasperbg> i'm not sure
09:24:22 <jasperbg> do you think it's ok to have -ve balance in asset account?
09:25:12 <andi5> i think it is ok, but i am not an accountant
09:26:31 <jasperbg> i think what gets me is that assets are things you 'own'
09:26:40 <jasperbg> logically an overdraft is a liability, not something you own
09:27:02 <jasperbg> i guess this way is the only way i *can* do it, because if i make it a liability a/c i'll get so sick of it i just won't maintain it
09:27:02 <andi5> maybe your asset account is more like a cc? :-D
09:27:21 * chris waves to andi5.
09:27:27 <andi5> hiho chris
09:28:17 <chris> jasperbg: Keeping a negative Asset balance is equivalent to creating a Liability for it. Do whichever is easier for you.
09:29:12 <jasperbg> righto, thanks for that
09:29:23 <jasperbg> so, turning that on its head, if i have a +ve balance on my credit card...
09:29:40 <jasperbg> i guess having a -ve liability balance is the smae as an asset for the credit card!?
09:29:50 <jasperbg> same even
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10:04:39 <andi5> fyi, i will be online more frequently again in the near future... bye
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10:07:31 <twvrankar> Anyone know how to import QIFs of !Type:Invst?
10:08:18 <twvrankar> I have successfully imported CCard and Bank, after some python doctoring to add appropriate 'L' records
10:08:40 <twvrankar> But don't understand how to do the same with Invst
10:09:09 <twvrankar> Is there a QIF-record to Investment Account Transaction mapping somewhere?
10:10:00 <twvrankar> (I asked this more verbosely in http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2007-08-01.html , but had to leave early)
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10:28:39 <jsled> nicholas: re: <http://blog.zanu.org.uk/2007/08/01/updating-lots-of-historical-gnucash-transactions/>, you really want those split GUIDs to be unique.
10:29:14 <nicholas> jsled: ah, they are not? I thought there were... hang on
10:30:02 <jsled> Oh, nevermind.
10:30:06 <nicholas> ah, I see
10:30:18 <nicholas> the second argument to generateSplit() is the account name
10:30:29 <jsled> I'll go get some coffee before commenting again. :)
10:30:42 <nicholas> but how'd you find the post so quick?
10:31:49 <jsled> I was just thinking about that. I saw it via a google search alert. Which means they're that quick.
10:31:59 <jsled> Which is pretty amazing.
10:32:18 <nicholas> I've never used that. You just have 'gnucash' or something registered with them?
10:32:27 <jsled> right.
10:32:41 <nicholas> I'd expect to get way too many hits each day
10:32:54 <jsled> no ... 0..5, even with the release.
10:33:01 <nicholas> oh
10:33:16 <nicholas> I might try them out then, they sound an interesting way to keep to up date
10:37:23 <twvrankar> Are Invst QIFs on the table for Summer of Code?
10:37:38 <jsled> twvrankar: no.
10:38:09 <twvrankar> Oh. Any pointers to how they should work, or is the point that they don't?
10:38:34 <jsled> I'm not sure that they do.
10:38:54 <jsled> Let me take a quick look for any evidence that the QIF importer knows about investments....
10:39:03 <twvrankar> Thanks.
10:39:30 <twvrankar> It seems to try, but the splits end up in weird accounts
10:40:05 <twvrankar> And there's all those Imbalances (but I think I can python them out of the QIFs before importing)
10:40:48 <jsled> There are multiple places in the qif importer code that mention stock/invst accounts specifically, so, yeah, it does know about them.
10:41:06 <jsled> It's not something that I've ever used, so I don't think I'll be able to help you at the moment.
10:41:51 <jsled> twvrankar: <http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alists.gnucash.org%20qif%20import%20invst> might be useful.
10:41:55 <twvrankar> <sigh> Thanks anyways. The rest of the program is great. I decided to try it for a month since it appeared on windows.
10:42:32 <jsled> The SoC project to revise the QIF importer unfortunately didn't pan out ... but even still, I'm not sure if investment QIFs were on the table, as you say.
10:43:27 <twvrankar> I've been searching for a week, nothing seems current but the rounidng error, which I think have a way to handle
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10:44:11 <twvrankar> Maybe I can convert my downloaded QIFs to CSV and import them using SoC?
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10:44:45 <jsled> Perhaps, though I'm not sure the CSV importer is going to do anything about investment transactions specifically.
10:46:09 <twvrankar> <groan> So most users maintain their investments manually? That'd explain the crazy Price Editor.
10:46:45 <jsled> Crazy how?
10:46:57 <twvrankar> Finance:Quote works, too, but only for a point in time; nothing gets saved to a "history" in Price Editor or to Transactions
10:47:10 <twvrankar> The GUI appears flaky
10:47:11 <jsled> The price editor does keep a history.
10:47:23 <twvrankar> On Win XP
10:47:30 <jsled> The GUI has been reported to be flaky, yes. :(
10:47:42 <twvrankar> I don't see history, and the (oh you got the GUI bit)
10:49:46 <twvrankar> I have been chasing too many ghosts: I do see a history of all my "Get Quotes"
10:50:06 <twvrankar> What the GUI gets in the way of is entering prices by hand.
10:51:24 <twvrankar> How do most users maintain Invst accounts? By hand?
10:53:34 <twvrankar> Multiple taxable securities, multiple 401(k) securities, all sorts of perioidic transaction traffic (monthly, quarterly, payday)
10:54:34 <twvrankar> Be nice to be able to import *something*
10:54:39 <jsled> I think a lot of people don't. Those that do probably maintain the transactions by hand, yes.
10:55:02 <jsled> I stopped when I last "reset" my books. It just wasn't worth it, in my goal of using the software.
10:55:21 <jsled> (which is mostly to track expenses, not full-fidelity net worth)
10:55:46 <jsled> If you have the inclination, it'd be nice to know exactly in what way the QIF importer does (not) work, as a bug report.
10:56:03 <jsled> With real or fake QIF files, if available.
10:56:42 <twvrankar> I will go off and prepare something. Thanks.
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18:14:40 <jasperbg> is there a way to specify the order in which transactions occurred within a given day?
18:15:13 <warlord> jasperbg: the transaction 'number'
18:15:25 <jasperbg> it doesn't seem to alter the order
18:15:40 <jasperbg> or does it have to be set when you initially do the txn
18:15:46 <jasperbg> i.e. it won't re-order if you edit it
18:16:16 <warlord> You might need to quit and reload.
18:16:24 <warlord> But I need to leave. Sorry.
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18:16:27 <jasperbg> ok
18:16:44 <jsled> jasperbg: what's the View > sort by setting for the register?
18:16:55 <jasperbg> standard order
18:17:15 <jsled> Hmm. I saw this work yesterday, answering the same question for someone else...
18:17:56 <jsled> yeah. Putting '2' into the num column definitely re-orders that transaction once it's Entered.
18:18:01 <jsled> Strangely, putting 'a' does not.
18:18:03 <jasperbg> not for me :(
18:18:21 <jsled> what value are you putting in?
18:18:25 <jasperbg> '2'
18:18:29 <jasperbg> i have two txns in there
18:18:47 <jsled> What's the 'num' value of the other one?
18:18:48 <jasperbg> opening balance, which originally had no num, but i've tried putting '1' in there too
18:18:55 <jasperbg> and this txn, which has '2'
18:20:17 <jsled> Ah, indeed.
18:20:32 <jsled> I can reproduce with a new file.
18:21:20 <jsled> That's too bad. I guess our understanding of the sort order isn't quite right. :/
18:23:49 <jasperbg> hmm bugger
18:23:57 <jasperbg> i mean, the end result at the end of the day will still be correct
18:24:07 <jsled> yeah, it's really annoying, though.
18:24:10 <jasperbg> but it's currently suggesting that at one point during the day i had -$6500 cash in my wallet
18:24:13 <jasperbg> which is a bit stupid
18:30:50 <jasperbg> i wonder if there's a workaround
18:30:53 <jasperbg> i could probably go hack the code
18:30:56 <jasperbg> but i'm not too keen on that
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18:45:09 <phil> hey, im sorry to be a noob but im just starting using GnuCash for my business... and i cant work out how to actually input money from clients
18:45:34 <phil> i understand the transactions for moving them between various accounts, but how do i input payments from outside sources?
18:45:49 *** phil is now known as thepyromaniac
18:45:59 <jsled> Income and Expenses accounts are money "source" and "sink" accounts, respectively.
18:46:41 <jsled> though in a business context, you should check out the Accounts Receivable stuff; <http://svn.gnucash.org/docs/guide/chapter_bus_ar.html>.
18:47:03 <jsled> Which will apply a payment to an invoice, and keep everything straight there.
18:47:50 <thepyromaniac> ahh that'll do it, thanks for the nod
18:48:06 <thepyromaniac> i have been looking over the help files, just wasnt getting there >.<
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19:01:34 <cortana> here's a good one
19:01:36 <cortana> using gnc on windows...
19:01:38 <cortana> printing a transaction report
19:01:44 <cortana> the print output is mirrored in the y axis!
19:02:01 <cortana> also the whole page's output is shifted down (or up) so that only half is on the page, the rest is cropped
19:02:15 <cortana> also the text is interrupted in places -- the top half of some lines is chopped off
19:02:28 <jsled> That's what we've heard ... :/
19:02:52 <cortana> ah it's known, that's ok
19:02:54 <cortana> i don't see a bug abou tit
19:03:23 <cortana> i'll get my landlady to send me the file and i'll print it from my debian system :)
19:03:37 <cortana> can a report's output be saved as e.g., html abd printed from a browser?
19:03:59 <jsled> yes. "Export". No graph support.
19:04:06 <cortana> that's fine
19:04:10 <cortana> thanks :)
19:04:19 <cortana> i'll file a bug since i don't see one already
19:04:52 <jsled> there is one; hold.
19:06:24 <cortana> oh ok
19:08:36 <cortana> #http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=
19:08:39 <cortana> oops
19:08:40 <cortana> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=462148
19:08:48 <jsled> That's the one.
19:09:20 <cortana> bugzilla is broken
19:09:24 <jsled> oh?
19:09:27 <cortana> it doesn't show up if i search for product:gnucash
19:10:54 <cortana> looks like this happens to gnumeric as well
19:11:00 <cortana> possibly it is a bug in gnome-print?
19:11:18 <jsled> possibly.
19:13:44 <cortana> i guess i'll wait for gtkprint :)
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19:34:29 <thepyromaniac> hi, slight problem running gnucash on vista
19:35:00 <thepyromaniac> when Proccessing Payment i add a client, add an invoice and as soon as i click OK it freezes and crashes the program
19:35:12 <thepyromaniac> has happened 5 times now, so doubt its coincidence
19:36:02 <jsled> indeed. Especially if it's repeatable from an empty/new datafile, it sounds like a great Bug.
19:36:58 <thepyromaniac> any known fix?
19:37:08 <jsled> uh, no.
19:37:15 <thepyromaniac> ofc vista's "Find solution online" is as useless as a chocolate teapot
19:37:42 <jsled> It's conceivable that it was filed and fixed in svn, which would become 2.2.1, but I don't recall seeing anything like that.
19:37:48 <thepyromaniac> bah, any vague ideas? re-create datafile, run in win 98 mode, etc?
19:38:09 <jsled> I'm one of the least knowledgeable about the windows port, sorry.
19:38:36 <thepyromaniac> no worries, time to install that Suse disk i've had sat around for weeks
19:42:47 <thepyromaniac> ran as 98/ME and disabled visual themes. seemed to work fine
19:42:59 <thepyromaniac> remember that for the next vista-using n00b
19:43:52 <cortana> thepyromaniac: could you file a bug? ;)
19:43:59 <jsled> yes, please.
19:44:03 <cortana> i wonder if it's even possible to get decent debugging information in windows
19:44:21 <thepyromaniac> does mouldy cheese taste good?
19:44:32 <jsled> cortana: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Windows#Error_messages suggests so.
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19:44:46 <cortana> well, by that, i meant a stack trace
19:45:01 <cortana> i doubt most people will install gdb ;)
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19:57:02 <thepyromaniac> ok more questions ^_^
19:57:56 <thepyromaniac> i finally get how to set up invoices and clients and everything, what i dont get is when you "post" an invoice, it says the money is missing in accounts recievable AND shows it in the account its meant to go into (eg: income:sales"
19:58:10 <thepyromaniac> surely it should only go in when you say the invoices is paid, and how do you do that?
20:06:06 <thepyromaniac> erf, ok it makes sense, but i cant work out how to mark invoices as paid
20:08:11 <jsled> http://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.0/C/gnucash-guide/bus-ar-payment1.html
20:09:29 <thepyromaniac> yea i was looking here. doesnt this just make an invoice that isnt necessairilry paid? cause the Accounts Recievable amount is red, suggesting that i dont yet have this cash
20:11:06 <jsled> Hmm. I don't use the business features .. lemme see.
20:12:02 <thepyromaniac> im a fast learner when i get a shunt in the right direction :$
20:14:04 <jsled> When I post an invoice, I get $100 in Income:Sales and $100 in Assets:Accounts Receivable.
20:14:13 <jsled> How did you create those accounts? Of what type are they?
20:15:27 <jsled> Then, when processing a payment, A/R is decremented by $100 and it's moved to the account I select (Assets:Current Assets:Checking)
20:15:34 <thepyromaniac> Business Accounts, uses the preset hierarchy
20:16:03 <jsled> thepyromaniac: What Income Account did you use for the Invoice entry?
20:16:47 <thepyromaniac> give me two seconds to change my setup before i answer you and make it obvious i made silly mistake :D
20:16:55 <jsled> heh.
20:18:28 <thepyromaniac> it should go from Assets:Accounts Receivable to Income:Sales right? i dont have income as an option for Transfer Account
20:19:04 <jsled> How are you creating the Invoice?
20:19:35 <thepyromaniac> Business -> Customer -> Process Payment, the clicking New Customer and New invoice on that form
20:20:40 <jsled> Hmm. You might try using Business > Customer > New Customer and New Invoice.
20:20:58 <thepyromaniac> yea done all of those, it still wont show income on the list
20:21:05 <thepyromaniac> lame...
20:22:04 <jsled> Um. On the invoice, are you entering anything?
20:22:24 <jsled> Cause if I do it all "on-demand" throuhg Business > Customer > Process Payment, I'm left with negative values and an empty invoice.
20:23:26 <jsled> And ... the invoice isn't posted.
20:23:42 <thepyromaniac> i could post em a mniute ago, now nothing >.<
20:23:49 <jsled> Yeah. When you go back to Post the invoice, it seems to balance out.
20:25:21 <thepyromaniac> ok, got it now
20:25:56 <thepyromaniac> its late...
20:29:38 <thepyromaniac> ok right solved, can make an invoice, define Income:sales and then process payment which i guess pays it. if process payment pays the account.. why is accounts receivable then red? that would make sense if the invoice wasnt actually paid, but it is!
20:31:15 <thepyromaniac> sorry, i know im being annoying but this is the last bit that doesnt make sense. i get the rest and will leave you all alone :p
20:32:17 <jsled> Because it needs to be posted.
20:32:30 <thepyromaniac> it is
20:32:38 <jsled> Posting is income -> A/R. Payment is A/R -> Assets.
20:32:39 <thepyromaniac> i posted it, its still red
20:33:07 <jsled> double-check that all of your invoices are?
20:33:33 <jsled> If you open the A/R register, it should be "clear" which invoice isn't accounted for.
20:34:16 <thepyromaniac> erf well tis not clear. one invoice of £600 and theres 4 lines!
20:40:18 <thepyromaniac> i have posted it, and Processed Payment, why is it still showing red?
20:41:40 <jsled> Like all accounts, the A/R balance is just the sum of the credits/debits against it.
20:42:01 <jsled> So, if it's red, there are more payments than invoices.
20:43:50 <jsled> I wonder if the Receivable Aging report might help you find the imbalance?
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20:47:52 <jsled> nice domain
20:48:00 <unstable> I want to manage money beter, I suck at it.
20:48:09 <jsled> heh. okay.
20:48:15 <unstable> Is there a plugin or something in GnuCash I can use to monitor my money?
20:48:19 <unstable> like, grocery store, gas, rent, etc
20:48:36 <jsled> A plugin? I mean ... that's the core of the thing.
20:49:03 <jsled> http://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.0/C/gnucash-guide/txns-registers1.html#txns-registers-twoaccount2
20:50:00 <jsled> Most transactions that you're going to enter are going to be Expenses.
20:50:15 <jsled> And you can make the Expense account hierarchy as coarse- or fine-grained as you like.
20:52:03 <unstable> ahh, ok
20:52:11 <unstable> That's what I wanted than. I'll start using it.
20:52:12 <unstable> thanks
20:52:31 <jsled> you're welcome.
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21:00:04 <dman13> I'm having trouble with OFX import. When using an empty file it works, but when using my real file it doesn't ask what accounts to use for the funds. Then it complains that the transaction is unbalanced. Any ideas on why?
21:02:08 <jsled> ... unfortunately, I don't know OFX import at all. :/
21:03:10 <dman13> ok, thanks
21:03:17 <jsled> But it's certainly supposed to allow you to map transactions to accounts.
21:03:36 <jsled> I mean, that's most of the point of any import ...
21:03:36 <dman13> the funny thing is ... I tried with an empty file first to see how it worked before letting it mess with my real data
21:03:43 <dman13> and it worked fine there!
21:03:48 <dman13> yeah.
21:03:57 <jsled> What do you mean by "empty"?
21:04:23 <dman13> I ran gnucash with no file. It had absolutely no data when I ran the import.
21:04:33 <jsled> Oh. Hmm.
21:04:38 <dman13> Then I did it again, but created some accounts (with no transactions) before running the import.
21:04:46 <jsled> Look in ~/.gnucash/, and see if there's a state file.
21:05:05 <dman13> but with my file (it has data since around 1998) it simply stops after asking for one account (and not the other three)
21:05:30 <jsled> I wonder if you've found a bug, wherein because there were no accounts during the initial import, it records the fact that all the accounts map to "null".
21:06:06 <dman13> I don't see any file with 'state' in the name
21:06:34 <jsled> hmm ... it'd not say that. But I'm not sure what it would be. Can you pastebin $(ls -l ~/.gnucash), maybe?
21:06:39 <dman13> there are the files under books/
21:06:55 <jsled> Er. `ls -al [...]` is probably better.
21:06:55 <dman13> $ ls -A1
21:06:55 <dman13> accelerator-map
21:06:55 <dman13> books/
21:06:56 <dman13> config-1.8.auto
21:06:56 <dman13> data/
21:06:58 <dman13> expressions-2.0
21:07:01 <dman13> RCS/
21:07:03 <dman13> saved-reports-1.8
21:07:06 <dman13> saved-reports-1.8.bak
21:07:08 <dman13> saved-reports-2.0
21:07:11 <dman13> stylesheets-2.0
21:07:14 <dman13> .svn/
21:07:23 <jsled> http://pastebin.ca/
21:07:25 <dman13> (the .svn and RCS directories were created because of things I did)
21:08:43 <jsled> hmm. None of those look right.
21:08:47 <jsled> What's in data/, though?
21:09:00 <dman13> nothing
21:09:20 <dman13> I think I've seen something there at one point, but not now
21:10:45 <dman13> is there an easy way to delete all transactions older than some date? I could try again with all the old stuff removed from a copy of my data file.
21:11:01 <jsled> No, there's not. :(
21:11:26 <jsled> (well, some xslt or script would be straightforward, depending on how you define "easy")
21:11:37 <dman13> yeah, if I knew the schema
21:12:10 <jsled> It's pretty straightforward. For that, you'd just want to filter the <transaction>s that had a date before some threshold.
21:12:23 <jsled> Probably the harder bit would be actually doing the date comparison.
21:12:46 <dman13> would I have to fix the gnc:count-data element too?
21:12:46 <jsled> (in xslt, that is.)
21:12:58 <jsled> naw. non-normative, so to speak.
21:13:14 <dman13> (fwiw it says 3687 -- that's why it takes so long to load the file)
21:13:15 <dman13> ok
21:13:20 <jsled> heh.
21:45:42 <chris> jsled: Since you seem to be on a patch roll... I wanted to put http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=452496 on your radar.
21:48:32 <jsled> yeah ... that one's just a lot harder to gauge.
21:49:53 <jsled> I should patch it in, then run while I do receipt/bill entry next Monday...
21:50:11 <jsled> Yeah. I'll make a note to do just that.
22:04:25 <dman13> can gnucash's xml parser handle it if the xml namespaces are given different prefixes?
22:04:49 <jsled> I doubt it.
22:05:04 <dman13> the script I made to remove all transactions prior to 2007 incidentally changed the namespace prefixes to ns0, ns1 and so on
22:05:07 <dman13> =p
22:05:33 <dman13> I'll work on it another time.
22:05:33 <jsled> .... what'd you use to do the processing?
22:05:45 <dman13> python's ElementTree library
22:05:58 <dman13> once I refreshed myself on the API it was really quite simple,
22:06:15 <dman13> but using its dump() method to turn the objects back to a stream apparently had that side-effect
22:06:27 * jsled nods.
22:06:32 <jsled> Yeah, we suck at XML.
22:06:53 <chris> jsled: FWIW, even looking at the patch a couple weeks later, it still looks right to me.
22:07:15 <dman13> XML can be a pain, particularly without simple APIs
22:07:37 <dman13> most of the XML I've done was with Java's DOM API
22:07:58 <dman13> the code using ElementTree is about 17 lines. total. :)
22:08:13 <jsled> :)
22:08:29 <dman13> (but I did cheat at parsing the date -- I just take the first for characters and make it an int)
22:09:25 <dman13> thanks for trying to help. I'll look at it again later. It's 10pm here now.
22:09:53 <jsled> dman13: take care.
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23:04:24 <xai> how can I manage retainers so that I don't count them as fees until work is performed?
23:08:10 <chris> xai: good question. you're talking about a retainer you pay, not a retainer you receive, right?
23:10:03 <chris> Assuming yes...
23:11:39 <chris> I think I would do one of two things... I'd setup either an asset or a liability account for the retainer, and then transfer the fees from there.
23:12:14 <chris> I don't think it really matters much whether to use an asset or a liability account - just the sign would change.
23:13:45 <chris> If you're talking about a retainer you receive, I'd use an asset account.
23:14:54 <chris> (Lawyers are sometimes required to deposit retainers into bank accounts.)
23:15:30 <chris> (So, in that case, an asset account make obvious sense.)
23:15:50 <chris> anyway, off to bed. g'night.
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23:25:27 <sbwoodside> is the wiki roadmap up to date
23:25:34 <sbwoodside> also the wishlist on the wiki
23:27:03 <dacc_> sweet
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23:27:36 <sbwoodside> I would like the ability to post an invoice with a negative total value - i.e. an invoice with a credit on it
23:27:49 <sbwoodside> I'm trying to use GnuCash for my business but it's just not all there yet it seems
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