2007-07-16 GnuCash IRC logs

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04:55:13 <BenB> does anybody know why print invoice menu item would be disabled (gnucash 2.0.2, suse 10.2, KDE, no gnome control center installed)
04:55:25 <BenB> I need it to write my invoices
04:55:44 <BenB> (no physical printer)
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06:09:37 <cortana> BenB: gnucash seems to use libgnomeprint -- maybe you don't have that library available/
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06:17:23 <BenB> cortana: libgnomeprint is installed. I also have some libgnomeprintui, but don't know how to open it.
06:17:49 <BenB> do you really have to depend on GNOME?? Half of your users don't use GNOME, but KDE!
06:27:40 <cortana> well gnomeprint is not gnome, it's just a library
06:27:54 <cortana> just pretend it's called libfooprint :)
06:28:18 <cortana> but anyway, libgnomeprint is deprecated -- since gtk 2.10 now has a printing module, eventually gnucash & other apps will move over to using that
07:11:45 <BenB> ah, cool. my problem is still unsolved, though. why is print disabled, why can't I print to PostScript file?
07:11:56 <BenB> and how do I make it enabled?
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07:22:37 <cortana> yeha good question :(
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07:44:34 <BenB> duh! I notice only print invoice and print on main screen is disabled. "print cheque..." in my bank account in enabled.
07:44:36 <BenB> how comes?
07:45:30 <BenB> (and it eventually leads to a KDE print dialog)
07:45:51 <BenB> what is going on here? why are only some print menu items disabled?
07:46:51 <BenB> "export..." (to HTML), which existed in 1.x, no longer exists for invoices either.
07:47:30 <BenB> AHHH!! I have to book it first!
07:47:44 <BenB> that's total AAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGG!
07:47:54 <BenB> I never book my invoices.
07:48:01 <BenB> now print invoice gets enabled.
07:48:45 <BenB> that's 2 problems in one: 1) don't force me to do anything that's not strictly necessary (worked fine in 1.9 without it, and all the data is there), and 2) when you disable something, *tell* me why.
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09:25:55 <jsled> BenB: Please file RFEs at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=GnuCash
09:32:48 <BenB> jsled: not an RFE, it's a bug
09:33:22 <BenB> will file later
09:34:00 <jsled> Also, patches are always welcome.
09:38:29 <BenB> jsled: yeah, right
09:38:50 <BenB> break stuff and ask the user who runs into it to fix it.
09:39:50 <jsled> Hmm.
09:40:46 <jsled> FTR, sometimes that's the only way, but I admit this probably isn't strictly one of those times.
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09:41:06 <jsled> At the same time, some library/printing issues have been really ... painful ... to see widely.
09:41:22 <jsled> So, yeah, sometimes it's up to the person who sees the problem to help fix it.
09:42:24 <BenB> jsled: but in this case, it didn't have anything to do with libraries or printing. it's just bad UI.
09:43:08 <BenB> which needlessly looks at "has been booked", and doesn't tell that it looks at that property and just disables stuff.
09:44:40 <BenB> jsled: so, I did the bug investiagation work. fix should be obvious: 1) don't require to book an invoice to allow to print it (trivial) and 2) don't just disable stuff without tellign why (harder, but important)
09:44:55 <jsled> For the second, do you think a tooltip on the menu would suffice?
09:45:26 <BenB> jsled: both are best fixed by a Gnucash developer, not somebody outside, even if I had the theoretical possibility to fix it, due to being a programmer, but had never anythign to do with gnucash source.
09:45:35 <BenB> jsled: not really.
09:45:49 <jsled> For the former – and I note that I didn't write the business features and don't use them, so my understanding might be off – there might be a reason why printing is disallowed, but it's not obvious to me.
09:46:02 <jsled> 2) what, then, would be?
09:46:52 <jsled> BenB: Sure. But, new contributors need to come from somewhere. :)
09:46:57 <BenB> for 1): it worked in 1.x, that's why I was so puzzled, and all the data to print is there. it's just workflow enforcement I guess, which is bad.
09:47:20 <BenB> jsled: I don't intend to be a gnucash contributor, though. I work on my own open source projects.
09:47:44 <BenB> can't work on every program I use.
09:48:34 <BenB> for 2): tough question. if the restriction is that arbitrary, then I'd probably enable the menu item and show a dialog with an error message, explaining which restriction is in place, why, and how to solve it.
09:48:41 <jsled> Not any business feature development went on between 1.8 and 2.0 ... for most intents and purposes, only the minimum to get gtk2 used went on.
09:49:47 <BenB> well, I know I never booked my invoices, and I did print them. suse 10.1 and whichever gnucash comes with it.
09:50:02 <BenB> (and suse 9.3 before that)
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11:01:17 <warlord> BenB: Um, no, you've ALWAYS had to post your invoice before you can print it.
11:02:39 <warlord> It didn't work in 1.x; it still required you to post.
11:02:53 <warlord> (if it didn't, then that was a bug in 1.x)
11:07:05 <warlord> actually, BenB, perhaps the difference is "menu" vs. "toolbar".
11:07:44 <warlord> In 2.x, those two entries got tied together through GtkAction whereas in 1.8 I think they were separate entities, so THAT'S why it might appear the functionality changed.
11:08:12 <warlord> "never booking and invoice" is wrong. What's the point of building an invoice if you're never going to post it?
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11:19:37 <BenB> warlord: I know for sure that I did not explicitly "post" / book / whatever invoices. I entered the last invoice statement, clicked print, and got a paper-like invoice where I could modify the columns etc., and click export to HTML and print.
11:20:25 <BenB> warlord: I always used the toolbar button for it, yes, didn'. it's gone in 2.0, as far as I can see.
11:20:37 <BenB> didn't use the menu in 1.9
11:20:56 <BenB> warlord: never tell a user his workflow is wrong.
11:21:14 <warlord> Your workflow is wrong
11:21:23 <BenB> warlord: I use gnucash only to create the invoices. I have no use for bookkeeping invoices in accounts.
11:21:27 <warlord> And I can assure you that the toolbar item in 1.8 NEVER worked until you posted.
11:21:41 <BenB> warlord: *never* tell a user his workflow is wrong. user is *always* right.
11:21:47 <warlord> Then dont use Gnucash for invoices. There are many better solutions if you just want to print it.
11:21:52 <BenB> esp. when it comes to workflow.
11:21:55 <warlord> BenB: your workflow is wrong.
11:22:02 <warlord> (some users are stupid, too)
11:22:15 <BenB> warlord: what's your point? to make me agressive?
11:22:18 <jsled> I've certainly seen confused users, yes.
11:22:26 <jsled> BenB, you're obviously already agressive.
11:22:27 <warlord> No, to tell you not to use gnucash for this.
11:22:36 <BenB> I just had a very assholish admin, so if you want to get that agression, just go on.
11:22:41 <warlord> gnucash is a FINANCIAL application, not an invoice generator.
11:22:59 <warlord> if you want an invoice generator, go elsewhere.
11:23:10 <warlord> gnucash is behaving exactly how it's designed to behave.
11:23:22 <BenB> jsled: I just said "I know for suree it works" and "don't tell me my workflow is wrong", both of which are rational and correct.
11:23:56 <BenB> warlord: your design is wrong :)
11:24:05 <warlord> "rational" perhaps. "correct" is up for discussion.
11:24:26 <warlord> Maybe my design is wrong, but that's not the discussion either.
11:24:37 <BenB> warlord: I don't see the point in putting invoices in an account. it adds no value for me.
11:24:46 <jsled> BenB: Well, the irrational "why can't you use KDE" ... the "your UI is bad". The misleading "yeah, you broke my stuff then make me fix it!" comment.
11:25:09 <warlord> jsled: I'm trying to overlook BenB's troll-like statements.
11:25:09 <jsled> I appreciate that it's not ideal. I appreciate that we all can't contribute to everything we use.
11:25:35 <jsled> But there's a difference between "that's too bad it doesn't work as I'd like" and "it does't work as I like because it sucks."
11:25:37 <warlord> BenB: um, how else are you supposed to keep track of how much each customer owes you?
11:26:09 <BenB> warlord: external means, maybe. i personally use the "active" flag for the invoice.
11:26:12 <warlord> like I said, if all you want is to print invoices, there are better technologies that will output better-looking invoices. I highly recommend Open Office.
11:26:19 <warlord> WOW!
11:26:25 <warlord> Someone actually uses that feature!!!!
11:26:30 <BenB> :)
11:26:32 <jsled> heh.
11:26:54 <warlord> Seriously, though, I think you'd be happier just using OOo.
11:27:26 <BenB> FWIW, I never said "use KDE", just "don'T assume I use GNOME", but that disicussion is void, because it wasn't even the problem here. printing in KDE works just fine.
11:27:28 <warlord> (and if you're really not going to be happier, there is a workaround: Reports -> Business -> Printable Invoice [Options] <select invoice>
11:27:44 <warlord> We dont assume you use gnome.
11:27:56 <BenB> "that discussion is void"
11:28:04 <BenB> "works fine"
11:29:31 <BenB> warlord: back to the invoice thing: unless something really *has* to happen - technically - or things will break - logically, don't force me to do steps which have no use for me, or do things ina certain way.
11:29:35 <BenB> ground rule of UI.
11:30:10 <warlord> Actually, no, there are things called "invariants"
11:30:15 <BenB> also, don't assume I have a grade in accounting, because I don't :)
11:30:40 <BenB> (nor am I interested in it, as you can imagine)
11:30:40 <warlord> exactly, which is why gnucash forces you to do things in certain ways! We assume the user knows NOTHING about accounting, so gnucash forces you to learn it.
11:30:59 <BenB> *SIGH*!
11:31:04 <BenB> don't *force*
11:31:05 <warlord> If you dont like that, you're welcome to choose another application
11:31:09 <BenB> I'm the king, remember.
11:31:19 <warlord> * LAUGHS HIS ASS OFF *
11:31:23 <BenB> user = customer = king.
11:31:25 <warlord> Look! The king has no clothes!!! HAHAHAHAH
11:31:45 <BenB> I'm not talking about me personally, I talk about attiitude.
11:31:54 <warlord> Sorry, this is freeware.. The user is NOT always right.
11:32:08 <warlord> And if the user thinks they are right, they're welcome to join the project and make it so.
11:32:15 <warlord> Remember: you get what you pay for!
11:32:21 <BenB> OK. in this case, what is the *hard* reason, why I *have* to post the invoice? what will not work?
11:32:34 <warlord> because that's the way it's designed to work.
11:32:44 <warlord> (actually, it's there to make sure you remember to post it)
11:32:50 <BenB> that's not an answer to my question.
11:33:08 <BenB> I didn't forget, I didn't want to... what will break?
11:33:15 <BenB> it will be saved anyways, so that's not a reason.
11:33:59 <warlord> all the rest of the business features fail. All the reports (customer/vendor report, aging reports) will fail..
11:34:10 <warlord> What part of "Gnucash is a FINANCIAL application" are you failing to understand?
11:34:24 <BenB> I manage my finances with gnucash, yes.
11:34:25 <warlord> You're trying to not use gnucash as a financial app
11:34:27 <jsled> I don't understand that.
11:34:48 <jsled> "financial" as opposed to...? Aren't invoices dealing in finances?
11:34:55 <BenB> my invoices are not finances, though. as long as I don't have the money in the bank, I have no money to manage.
11:35:09 <warlord> jsled: posted invoices, yes. PRINTED invoices, no
11:35:21 <jsled> fair enough.
11:35:25 <warlord> BenB: yes, you do. You have a Receivable.
11:36:08 <BenB> warlord: so? and if I have many receivables which never come through? what does that tell me? apart form the fact that I had badcustomers?
11:36:21 <warlord> Well, it tells you that for one.
11:36:29 <warlord> It tells you exactly how much you've lost.
11:36:31 <BenB> well, I know anyways, thank you.
11:36:55 <BenB> I *painfully* know, maybe I don't want gnucash to tell me everytime in my face?
11:36:56 <warlord> it also tells you WHO isn't paying.
11:37:02 <BenB> I also know that.
11:37:13 <BenB> stop being facist.
11:37:24 <BenB> I just had a facist admin, no need for more of that.
11:37:27 <warlord> HAHAHAHA... Godwin's Law!
11:37:40 <jsled> BenB: there's no need for that.
11:37:52 <warlord> I'm not being facist. I'm saying gnucash is behaving how it's designed, and if you dont like it you're welcome to triple your money back!
11:38:00 <BenB> I do my invoices how I like it. I choce not to manage unpaid invoices in gnucash, but it's convienient to generate them, so why disallow that?
11:38:19 <warlord> Because that's not what gnucash is designed to do.
11:38:48 <BenB> gnucash is designed to force a workflow on me. that's how it feels to someone who likes another workflow better.
11:38:50 <warlord> Why can't I use thunderbird to send AIM messages? Because it wasn't designed to
11:38:59 <BenB> warlord: oh, in fact, it can!
11:39:03 <warlord> then find a tool that fits your workflow.
11:39:33 <warlord> If you have a hammer (your workflow) then don't try to hammer in a PC board (gnucash)
11:39:35 <BenB> remember the netscape AOL thing?
11:40:29 <BenB> warlord: the thing is: 1.8 did fit my workflow. uses get partciularly pissed if things stop working with an *upgrade*
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11:40:36 <BenB> users
11:40:53 <BenB> HBCI stopped working, too, much earlier.
11:41:30 <BenB> gnucash suits me fine otherwise, in fact it's a great app, so "use something else" is a really bad response.
11:41:36 <BenB> enough for that.
11:41:42 <BenB> feel free to fight users away.
11:41:58 <BenB> tooth and nails "No we don't want you, we are RIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT"
11:42:07 <jsled> BenB: That's defeatist.
11:42:16 <jsled> BenB: Gnucash was designed to work a particular way. That's just the way it is.
11:42:21 <BenB> and "go away" is not?
11:42:36 <jsled> BenB: It will take work to change that, and no one's volunteering to do that work.
11:42:50 <jsled> I didn't say "go away", fwiw.
11:42:51 <warlord> I'mnot saying "go away", I'm saying "there are other tools out there that may meet your needs better"
11:43:12 <BenB> jsled: it's just removing a check! (which was not there or did not work in 1.x)
11:43:20 <warlord> Gnucash isn't going to meet the needs of 100% of the users out there. It may not even meet 70%. That's why it's great that there are other toos.
11:43:27 <BenB> warlord: which is essentially the same, because there are no better tools.
11:43:40 <BenB> warlord: I like the way gnucash manages my expenses.
11:43:45 <warlord> I think users of SQL-Ledger or KMyMoney would disagree
11:43:52 <BenB> and income (module currencies)
11:43:54 <jsled> BenB: right. It's too bad that it takes so much effort to remove a simple check, in gnucash. But that's a different problem.
11:44:18 <BenB> jsled: are you ironic or serious?
11:44:25 <jsled> I'm serious.
11:44:39 <BenB> ok :-(
11:45:05 <BenB> I can't imagine how removing an |if| would be hard, if you know where it is and can build the thing, but I'll take your word for it.
11:45:13 <jsled> It's too hard to build. Too many deps. Code base is too big, sometimes too esoteric. QOF is a PITA. gtkhtml sucks.
11:45:32 <BenB> nod
11:45:42 <jsled> In any case, please file the RFEs/bugs so the issue doesn't get lost.
11:46:27 <warlord> no, dont.. i'm just going to close it as "not a bug"
11:46:40 <warlord> (unless it comes with a patch)
11:46:51 <warlord> I have no intention to change that behavior myself.
11:49:14 <warlord> There are a number of workarounds: post/print/unpost .. or go through the Report directly.
11:51:14 <BenB> warlord: I had 2 problems: one was "don'
11:51:30 <BenB> don't force me to do stuff which is neither necessary nor useful for me".
11:52:13 <BenB> the other one was "make clear *why* I can't print, don't just disable and let me waste time trying to fix my print setup which was perfectly fine
11:52:43 <warlord> wasting your time was your own darn fault. you could have asked sooner.
11:52:52 <BenB> warlord: what??ß
11:52:53 <warlord> i BELIEVE that's actually mentioned in the docs, but I'm not 100% sure.
11:53:23 <BenB> I did ask, yesterday, today, several times, and *nobody* here told me it could have anything to do with posting the invoice.
11:53:41 <BenB> also, I should not have to ask in the first place. ground rule in GUIs.
11:53:48 <warlord> as for doing stuff not useful to me, well, one could argue that maintaining double-entry accounting "isn't useful" for some users, which by your logic means that gnucash shouldn't force a user to use it.. Which is just wrong.
11:54:07 <BenB> <warlord> wasting your time was your own darn fault. --- *you* wasted my time by making *misleading* UI.
11:54:23 <warlord> Fine, I'll give you tripple your money back. Here ya go.
11:54:54 <BenB> warlord: this is not funny, and you know it.
11:55:12 <BenB> warlord: you pay me 3 times the time I spent on open source projects? that's what I paid.
11:55:15 <warlord> Hahaha... sure it is! You've been a great morning amusment.
11:55:22 <BenB> fuck you
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11:55:45 <chris> LOL!
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11:56:36 <warlord> Well then!
11:56:48 <warlord> (and sorry, ben, you're not my type)
11:57:13 <chris> I literally had "/kick B" already typed when he quit.
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11:58:51 <warlord> heh. I slept well last night. no red brick ready to fly.
11:59:52 <BenB> I would like to have this end constructively.
11:59:58 <guyforget> btw gnucash doesn't exactly *force* users to use double-entry accounting. I've never gone through and reconciled my entries and things work just fine :)
12:00:01 <guyforget> oh boy
12:00:06 <BenB> shall I file a bug about "make clear why disabled"?
12:00:51 <jsled> guyforget: well, that's reconciliation. DE is more the forcing you to not have orphaned or imbalanced transactions / using Asset,Expenses,&c. accounts.
12:01:06 <warlord> guyforget: that.... what jsled said.
12:01:20 <guyforget> ahh i see, well i guess thats what i get for not taking accounting when i had the chance :) haha
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12:01:35 <vamp898> !deutsch
12:01:58 <vamp898> how can i pay via PIN/TAN? Wheres the funktion
12:02:02 <jsled> BenB: I think so, yes.
12:02:50 <warlord> BenB: no need. It's in the docs:
12:02:52 <warlord> http://cvs.gnucash.org/docs/guide/bus-ar-invoices1.html#bus-ar-invoiceprint2
12:02:59 <jsled> I'd personal prefer it to be a tooltip on the disabled menu item, rather than a "falsely" enabled item ... maybe the HIG says something about such things.
12:03:00 <BenB> warlord: please be a bit more understanding with users. "certain" behaviour of software can cause huge pain and time loss. and sorry about the "fuck you", but you really overdid it.
12:03:02 <warlord> After you post an invoice, you should print it and send it to your customer. To print an invoice use File -> Print Invoice menu item.
12:03:17 <warlord> Hahahahahaahah... I did, eh?
12:03:24 <BenB> warlord: docs are irrelevant. *please* read the "GUI 101"
12:03:40 <jsled> Well, the item could link to the docs, perhaps. Or summarize them or something. I don't think it's unreasonable for disabled UI items to explain why.
12:03:57 <warlord> BenB: um, no, docs are NOT irrelevant.
12:03:57 <jsled> I also tend to agree that the docs shouldn't be necessary / supplementary as much as possible.
12:04:02 <BenB> warlord: it seems you have absolutely no clue about the ground rules for GUIs. one of "discoverability", that I do *not* have to learn anythign to use an app, at least not about the app itself.
12:04:31 <BenB> GUI != UI with icons.
12:04:45 <warlord> GUI == Graphical User Interface
12:05:01 <warlord> (vs. CLUI or CUI, Commandline User Interface)
12:05:11 <BenB> warlord: now *you* resist to learn
12:05:13 <chris> BenB: Just file the bug, and propose what you think the behavior should be, and leave it at that.
12:05:25 <BenB> chris: and have it wontfixed.
12:05:39 <warlord> chris: can a disabled button have an active tooltip?
12:05:45 <BenB> chris: but will do, yes.
12:05:53 <chris> BenB: take the chance or do nothing - your choice.
12:05:55 <warlord> (and can the tooltip change based on the sensitivity?)
12:06:08 <BenB> warlord: tooltip was discussed. does not help, I'm too fast for tooltips to appear.
12:06:11 <jsled> There's also the new tooltip api in gtk 2.12 (I believe)
12:06:15 <chris> warlord: no idea.
12:06:29 <warlord> BenB: and whose fault is that?
12:06:45 <BenB> warlord: noones? tooltip is just not appropriate?
12:07:05 <guyforget> BenB, now you're just nitpicking. A tool-tip would be more than sufficient. If you get confused by something and have to sit there for a second, you see if there is a tooltip that explains the problem. how is that not enough?
12:07:24 <BenB> guyforget: it would not have helped me a bit, because I would never have seen it.
12:08:02 <guyforget> so in all the time looking at the disabled menu item and spending days trying to figure out the problem you never would have looked at the tooltip?
12:08:10 <BenB> guyforget: it's not common for a tooltip to explain why somethign is disabled. it explains what something means. I know what "print" means.
12:08:37 <BenB> guyforget: I never mouse over the menu entry in the first place, because I see it's disabled when I open the menu.
12:09:12 <BenB> and as I said, I don't just sit there idly for 1-2 seconds starring at it, I immediately see that it's disabled and go one to see why.
12:09:36 <guyforget> and where do you go to see why?
12:09:41 <vamp898> where´s the funktino to pay over PIN/TAN :(
12:09:52 <BenB> guyforget: in the print setup, and in #gnucash :(
12:10:19 <BenB> vamp898: you need to tell more. which online banking system do you use?
12:10:23 <chris> BenB: understand: we're not here to solve your problems. We're here to help _you_ solve your problems. We've told you what you can do. Now, go do it, or go away.
12:10:34 <vamp898> T-Online
12:10:48 <warlord> BenB: if the icon was changed from "Print" to "Printable" would that have fixed your problem>
12:10:49 <warlord> ?
12:10:54 <BenB> chris: the point is to prevent problems I like had for other people. I know what thre problem is now.
12:10:58 <warlord> s/icon/menu item
12:11:10 <warlord> BenB: you're the first person in 6 years to have this problem.
12:11:23 <BenB> warlord: because it's new in 2.0! it did not exist in 1.x.
12:11:29 <warlord> Sure it did.
12:11:41 <warlord> The tooltip icon was sensitive based on the posted status of the invoice.
12:11:43 <BenB> (as I said before and you questioned, but I know for sure that I wrote many many invoices this way.)
12:12:04 <vamp898> BenB i think it´s T-Online
12:12:16 <chris> vamp898: Have you tried emailing gnucash-de?
12:12:23 <vamp898> no :D
12:12:26 <BenB> I wouldn't know what the tooltip icon said. as I said, I never see tooltips, for no app, because I am too fast.
12:12:46 <BenB> vamp898: I don't know that, now how it interfacts with Gnucash.
12:13:13 <guyforget> BenB, maybe when you run in to a problem, you should slow down a bit?
12:13:17 <BenB> (if at all)
12:13:30 <warlord> sorry, not tooltip. I meant the toolbar.
12:13:44 <BenB> guyforget: I did. but that's not what tooltips do. they explain what something is, they don't explain why something is disabled.
12:13:48 <warlord> the TOOLBAR "print" icon/button was sensitive based on the posted status
12:13:54 <warlord> (sorry, my bad)
12:14:15 <BenB> warlord: it was not. claiming that doesn't make it more right.
12:14:51 <BenB> warlord: I can make a screenshot when I'm back in suse 10.1, but I guess it would not have an effect on you either.
12:15:18 <vamp898> 2. PIN/TAN over T-Online the standard, if it concerns Homebanking programs in connection with PIN/TAN. Advantage: Nearly each bank offers it.
12:15:38 <vamp898> say´s the GNUCash Wikip
12:15:39 <vamp898> *Wiki
12:15:49 <jsled> vamp898: what distro are you using?
12:15:54 <vamp898> Debian
12:16:15 <jsled> Ah. Debian refuses to ship gnucash with HBCI, which
12:16:25 <jsled> I believe is what you're after... right?
12:16:49 <jsled> Isn't pin/tan one style of hbci auth?
12:16:52 <warlord> BenB: no need. I just checked myself.
12:16:56 <vamp898> yes
12:17:00 <vamp898> how can i get HBCI
12:17:20 <BenB> warlord: which version? I refer to the one in suse 10.1
12:17:26 <warlord> vamp898: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Debian
12:17:34 <vamp898> thx
12:17:55 <BenB> jsled: why does debian not ship hbci with gnucash?
12:18:03 * BenB reads the wiki page
12:18:08 <warlord> BenB: See the URL I just posted.
12:18:09 <jsled> yup.
12:18:38 <BenB> HBCI does not work for me either on suse 10.x, BTW - the other huge problem (but older)
12:18:49 <BenB> basically, openhbci worked, aqbanking does not.
12:19:31 <jsled> Well, from what I read earlier, there should be gnucash 2.2 packages for SuSE < 10.3 in a few days. :) Maybe that'll resolve it.
12:19:48 <warlord> BenB: dont worry about the version, because the version I ran also had the 'print' icon sensitive. I wonder when that changed, because I know that originally it wasn't. Anyways, you've convinced me to make the change for 2.0.1
12:19:52 <warlord> er, 2.2.1
12:20:17 <BenB> warlord: which change?
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12:20:22 <warlord> BenB: but please file a bug report.. I promise not to close it out. (and dont be an ass about it)
12:20:30 <warlord> making the item sensitive
12:20:40 <vamp898> i installed aqbanking lib
12:20:49 <BenB> warlord: in which way and to what?
12:21:01 <BenB> warlord: i.e. what changes based on what?
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12:21:24 <warlord> BenB: <warlord> making the item sensitive
12:21:44 <BenB> "sensitive" = it reacts.
12:21:58 <warlord> right.
12:22:17 <BenB> i.e. what changes (tooltip, disabled state) based on what (posted, allowing only posted ones to print, or unposted as well)?
12:22:40 * vamp898 is listening to Adios by Rammstein on Mutter [Amarok]
12:24:30 <BenB> "because the version I ran also had the 'print' icon sensitive. I wonder when that changed, because I know that originally it wasn't." - "making the item sensitive" - first sentence says it already is.
12:24:54 <BenB> I have no idea what you mean
12:25:02 <warlord> I tested 1.8
12:26:01 <BenB> FWIW, I have no print icon at all on invoices anymore in 2.0, only menu item (disabled when not posted). I had it in 1.x (and enabled when not posted).
12:26:37 <warlord> BenB: yes, I understand
12:26:50 <BenB> I still don't know what you want to change, because from what you said I understand the icon and menu item is now sensitive (disabled when not posted).
12:27:09 <BenB> how can you make it sensitive when it already is?
12:27:38 <BenB> I give up. I'll just file the bugs.
12:27:46 <warlord> BenB: what part of "I tested 1.8" are you failing to understand?
12:28:12 <BenB> warlord: what you want to change.
12:28:27 <BenB> in 2.2.1
12:28:28 <warlord> I told you already, I want to make the item sensitive.
12:28:35 <BenB> <BenB> how can you make it sensitive when it already is?
12:28:55 <warlord> if it were sensitive already then you wouldn't be here. your complaint is that it's NOT sensitive.
12:29:06 <warlord> Make up your fricking mind? Is it snesitive or not?
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12:29:28 <BenB> then I don't know what you mean with "sensitive".
12:29:34 <BenB> I want "print" to be enabled *always*
12:29:56 <BenB> and when it's not possible to print, I want a message why not (where tooltip is too subtle)
12:30:14 <warlord> gtk_*_set_sensitive()
12:30:20 <BenB> whatever
12:30:36 <warlord> Just file the d**m bug report before I change my mind
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12:48:52 <BenB> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=457401
12:48:56 <BenB> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=457404
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13:06:07 <BenB> oh, cute, gnucash uses 1 GB of RAM.
13:06:13 <BenB> PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S PU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
13:06:13 <BenB> 5861 ben 16 0 1386m 971m 1116 S 0 48.3 2:20.60 gnucash-bin
13:06:36 <BenB> (64bit)
13:06:46 <jsled> That seems a bit excessive...
13:08:40 <jsled> 76m VSZ / 42m RSS here (32bit amd64)
13:08:48 <jsled> (On a 1.5-year datafile.)
13:09:52 <jsled> Hmm. It looks like (from your ps line) 1116 in shared libs.
13:10:51 <jsled> actually, that looks like top output...
13:12:15 <jsled> chris: you know you have less than two hours for your SoC mid-term?
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13:12:52 <chris> jsled: um, no.
13:13:02 <chris> jsled: was I supposed to get email?
13:13:19 <jsled> I don't think so ...
13:13:49 <jsled> there's the mentor google group/mailing list
13:13:59 <jsled> But I don't think they mail everyone otherwise.
13:14:28 <jsled> But, yeah, due at 19:00 UTC (~3:00 EDT) today.
13:16:21 <jsled> http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-announce/browse_thread/thread/110a85d061099fcb/05b2877cdf716467#05b2877cdf716467
13:17:07 <chris> jsled: thanks for the heads-up - doing it now.
13:19:03 <warlord> damn google for using groups and not email
13:19:23 <jsled> You can get the group to do email delivery, but it's not quite the same.
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14:09:31 <BenB> jsled: yes, that was "top" output.
14:10:45 <BenB> jsled: I don't know what unit the SHR 1116 is in, but thunderbird has "22m" there, so it's not 1 GB.
14:11:26 <BenB> FWIW, closing gnucash feed about 1 GB of my RAM.
14:11:36 <jsled> what distro/machine?
14:11:58 <jsled> suse 10.2?
14:12:01 <BenB> suse 10.2 64bit, AMD Athlon X2 4800+
14:12:13 <BenB> 2 GB of RAM
14:12:40 <jsled> Hmm. I wonder if that's all guile, or. Even with the 32->64 doubling, that's quite excessive. How big is your datafile? In terms of time...?
14:12:42 <warlord> my gnucash process only takes up about 78MB of ram
14:13:18 <BenB> my .gnucash is about 370 KB.
14:13:23 <warlord> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND
14:13:23 <warlord> warlord 28563 0.0 0.7 74180 22104 pts/4 S Jul13 0:30 gnucash bin
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14:13:47 <BenB> warlord: that used to be like that for me as well (at least in 1.x, I haven't use 2.0 much yet)
14:13:57 <warlord> This is with 2.0
14:14:03 <BenB> guessed so
14:14:24 <BenB> either I have more data or something went bezerk
14:14:30 <M0E-lnx> Can someone remind me again of the last step to installing slib?
14:14:42 <jsled> M0E-lnx: find it in the archives.
14:14:52 <warlord> Well, I'm on x86, not x86_64, so expect a doubling there.
14:14:53 <M0E-lnx> where is it the archives?
14:15:09 <BenB> warlord: yup, but I am 12 times more :)
14:15:09 <M0E-lnx> nvm... got it
14:15:10 <warlord> M0E-lnx: you mean the 'new-catalog ?
14:15:18 <M0E-lnx> warlord, yes
14:15:29 <BenB> s/am/have/
14:15:29 <jsled> M0E-lnx: It'll be in http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/${timestamp}.html , where $timestamp is whenever we talked about it last. :)
14:15:39 <warlord> BenB: well, you COULD have a lot more data than I do.
14:16:12 <warlord> I only have 550 txns in my account
14:16:27 <M0E-lnx> dang.. I dont remember when I was here
14:16:30 <M0E-lnx> last time
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14:17:11 <BenB> on startup, it takes 100M RES.
14:17:11 <jsled> M0E-lnx: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Alists.gnucash.org+inurl%3Alogs+M0E-lnx&btnG=Search
14:17:28 <BenB> I saved a few times. maybe it leaks during save?
14:17:34 <warlord> 100M RES on startup is reasonable.
14:17:57 <BenB> nah
14:18:00 <BenB> warlord: agreed
14:18:09 <BenB> (Well, depends on POV, but yes)
14:18:27 <warlord> BenB: It's possible (but unlikely) that there's a leak during save.
14:18:29 <BenB> jumping to 1GB is not, so something's iffy here
14:18:39 <cortana> i think 1116 would be KB
14:18:47 <BenB> I just saved 2-3 times, no increase.
14:18:55 <jsled> There was a fair amount of profiling in 2.0, so it's not all that interesting to talk about 1.8.
14:19:27 <warlord> cortana: no, there's no way that's only 1.1MB of shared libs.
14:19:31 <cortana> i see 32 MB RES with 2.0.5
14:19:39 <cortana> warlord: i don't think it's shared libs
14:19:46 <cortana> it's memory that is potentially sharable with other processes
14:19:47 <BenB> jsled: it is interesting, as apps should get better, not worse. :) but this seems like a genuine bug, which can happen
14:19:52 <warlord> cortana: x86 or x86_64?
14:19:56 <cortana> x86
14:20:14 <warlord> right, so double it to 64MB RES, which is "close" to the 100MB he's seeing.
14:20:45 <BenB> yes, no need to discuss the 100 MB, that's OK.
14:20:47 <cortana> i see 47 MB total mapped, 33 MB resident, and about 9 MB 'SHR'
14:20:51 <BenB> 1 GB is what's off
14:20:53 <M0E-lnx> dang... I'm getting another error... "Cound not find slib/require.scm
14:21:23 <cortana> BenB: could you do: ps u $(pgrep gnucash)
14:21:32 <BenB> I have no idea what caused it, though. all I did.... hm, the import maybe?
14:21:36 <cortana> then you'll be comparing your numbers to ours more directly
14:21:38 <BenB> could be that this was the first launch of 2.0.
14:21:49 <warlord> M0E-lnx: that implies that guile can't find slib
14:21:56 <warlord> (probably a missing symlink)
14:22:17 <warlord> OH! Try quitting and restarting?
14:22:23 <M0E-lnx> I remember I fixed this with a symlink before..
14:22:26 <warlord> (it's quite possible that there's a leak during the 1.8 -> 2.0 import)
14:22:27 <M0E-lnx> can't remember where though
14:22:46 <BenB> warlord: well, did that quickly before I ran out of RAM :)
14:22:53 <BenB> (before getting into swap hell)
14:23:28 <warlord> heh
14:24:16 <M0E-lnx> mmm
14:24:46 <M0E-lnx> ERROR: slib:require unsupported feature format
14:25:17 <M0E-lnx> nvm... i'm squared ;)
14:25:53 <BenB> 457404 was marked a dup of 457401. Do you agree to fix the latter? if it gets wontfixed, we need to reopen the former.
14:26:00 <BenB> warlord: ^
14:26:51 <warlord> BenB: I already answered that. Besides, if I were going to wontfix it I would've already done that
14:26:58 <BenB> ok, thanks .)
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14:31:26 <chris> hey jmgreen, I just finished your GSoC midterm survey. I said you'
14:31:51 <chris> I said you're going to get lots more done in the rest of the summer, right? :)
14:32:44 <jmgreen> chris: that
14:32:53 <jmgreen> chris: that's right :)
14:33:08 <jsled> (gnome should have a {{{'<RET>}}} eliminator.)
14:33:18 <jmgreen> chris: I'll have an update for you by tomorrow
14:33:21 <chris> jsled: +1
14:34:37 <chris> jmgreen: cool, want to send it to gnucash-devel?
14:34:54 <chris> (or, CC, I mean)
14:37:00 <jmgreen> chris: sure, no problem
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14:41:59 <chris> warlord, jsled: Are all the GSoC ducks in a row?
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14:42:34 <jsled> Both of mine are in (with cstim's feedback, as well)
14:42:48 <warlord> I need to do mine, but he quit, so not sure what I need to do.
14:51:40 <andi5> as i missed the 2.2.0 release, how did it go? ... is the win32 setup.exe still working for anyone?
14:56:58 <andi5> ouch... 5,655 win32 downloads so far
14:59:24 <warlord> Okay, my GSoC surveys are done
14:59:29 <warlord> andi5: why "ouch"?
15:00:02 <andi5> i think that is not bad for 22 hours or so
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15:00:49 <palatin> the windows release will probably widen the userbase a lot
15:00:57 <BenB> andi5: you hit heise, specifically promoting the Windows release, so that's expected.
15:01:18 <andi5> BenB: lemme check
15:01:35 <BenB> you should expect 10000 within 1 day just from heise.
15:02:04 <BenB> so, that's just about right. be glad that you have SF, though :)
15:02:10 <BenB> sourceforge
15:02:45 <warlord> BenB: that's why we use SF ;)
15:03:37 <BenB> andi5: [off] how do you find an apartment in munich, and how much do you pay?
15:04:04 <BenB> (generally)
15:04:22 <Ara> Hello! How can I enter cash withdrawals from credit card?
15:04:57 <BenB> andi5: [off] guessed so... I wish I knew before I ranted a few hours earlier :)
15:05:33 <jsled> Ara: it'd probably be a {Liabilities:Credit Card} -> {Assets:Cash on Hand} transaction, maybe with a split for {Expenses:Finance Charges:Credit Card} if relevant.
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15:24:48 <philmatt> Hello all
15:24:51 <andi5> hi
15:26:21 <philmatt> Coming from installing gnucash 2.2.0 on Win XP (german)
15:26:33 <philmatt> anyone here with the german translation installed
15:26:34 <philmatt> ?
15:26:40 <andi5> yep
15:27:34 <philmatt> Still no clue why do the "Kontenbezeichnungen" still in english, even after following the steps (gtk+ language)
15:27:44 <philmatt> this after selecting skr04
15:28:57 <andi5> you mean, you inserted a skr04 account hiearchy into your (probably empty) tree and the account names are english?
15:29:24 <andi5> i thought skr is german-only.. hm
15:29:57 <philmatt> well, i didn't install any extraordinary packages, just switched gtk+ to german (had it already from gimp before) and
15:30:16 <warlord> Did you restart gnucash after changing that setting?
15:31:03 <philmatt> installed gnucash on top of it. Then, on the 1. start wizard, selected "Business Accounts" and get everything in english
15:31:08 <philmatt> yes, i did
15:31:31 <philmatt> i'm shooting a screenshot, hold on a sec please...
15:31:52 <warlord> Did the label actually say "Business Accounts" or did it say something in german?
15:33:04 <philmatt> It looks like this: http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/3870/gnucashkx7.jpg
15:33:19 <philmatt> Yes, the label was exactly like that
15:33:25 <philmatt> in english
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15:35:15 <andi5> does not look like skr04...
15:35:31 <philmatt> The wizard looks like this: http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4664/gnucash2fi4.jpg
15:35:52 <andi5> did you actually check skr04 on the left hand side?
15:35:57 <philmatt> Maybe i'm a little bit confused about skr04.
15:36:01 <philmatt> No, where?
15:36:09 <andi5> oh... oops... everything is in english
15:37:05 <philmatt> exactly
15:37:08 <andi5> philmatt: may you please download http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=90557 , execute it and tell us its output?
15:37:23 <philmatt> I'm at it, brb
15:37:58 <warlord> That implies that the druid isn't pulling from the right (localized) account trees.
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15:39:18 <philmatt> The output is:
15:39:22 <philmatt> Locale: de
15:40:21 <warlord> OH! Try: de_DE
15:40:37 <andi5> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=450353
15:40:52 <philmatt> So, where am i supposed to set it, in bin/gnucash.bat?
15:41:05 <andi5> oh, yes, you can add set LANG=de_DE
15:41:18 <andi5> but it is still strnage
15:41:33 <andi5> maybe you find out why glib does not pick up your location
15:41:41 <andi5> please add a comment to the bug if you do
15:42:05 <philmatt> ok, give me 1 minute to try the env var
15:42:34 <andi5> as warlord said, you will need to restart gnucash :)
15:44:02 <philmatt> Gotcha, that one worked!!
15:44:51 <philmatt> Alright, thank you guys, i'll add it to the bug report.
15:45:14 <philmatt> Maybe you'll see me often around here the next fews days :-)
15:45:24 <andi5> :-)
15:45:41 <warlord> hopefully there arent THAT many issues!
15:45:56 <andi5> warlord is getting nervous? ;-)
15:46:18 <andi5> at least is still starts up for _some_ :-D
15:46:33 <philmatt> I don't think so, but this time i really decided to give gnucash a serious chance :-)
15:46:34 <warlord> LOL
15:46:58 <philmatt> Say it the first time maybe on Suse LINUX 7.x
15:47:04 <andi5> oops
15:47:07 <philmatt> (Saw)
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16:22:10 <andi5> hiho cstim
16:33:59 <cstim> hi andi5
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16:34:09 <cstim> we're on heise, golem, and pro-linux. Yay.
16:34:47 <andi5> you did not mail them, right?
16:35:49 <andi5> well, wiki/PR lists them, so maybe you did :)
16:35:54 <cstim> I did mail them.
16:36:17 <cstim> there isn't a gnucash/tags/2.2.0 copy in svn?!
16:36:19 <andi5> the comments i have read so far are rather good ones
16:36:27 <cstim> only a branches/2.2/
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16:47:26 <cstim> quite a heated morning discussion here today.
16:47:39 * cstim grabs his mojito
16:48:04 <warlord> cstim: heh
16:48:32 <andi5> cstim: are you on windows right now?
16:49:24 <cstim> no, I am next to my window right now.
16:49:40 <andi5> great... .may you test something for me?
16:50:24 <andi5> there is http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=457213 ... i can confirm it, maybe you as well
16:51:01 <andi5> now i extracted ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/binaries/win32/gtk+/2.10/gtk+-2.10.13.zip into gnome/ ... i wonder whether that really helps (maybe i am just too dumb to test :-))
16:51:02 <cstim> andi5: that was a joke. I am sitting next to my windows, but the only computer I'm running is runnign Linux.
16:51:24 <andi5> thanks for explaining :-)
16:51:28 <cstim> uh oh. indeed 5454 win32 downloads sinces yesterday.
16:51:59 <warlord> Better SF than us
16:52:22 <andi5> 412 gigs so far
16:53:22 <andi5> i am sorry, 296 actually
16:53:23 <cstim> heh
16:53:54 <cstim> and 2.2.0 already has more windows downloads than any of 2.1.[345]
16:54:00 <warlord> Hehe.
16:54:11 <warlord> People were waiting for the "stable" release.
16:54:33 <cstim> seems like.
16:54:55 <cstim> Can we make it on lwn.net and slashdot? Seems to me wilddev probably hasn't submitted there because they still don't have it.
16:55:32 <warlord> No idea
16:55:56 <chris> Who's going to be the Backporter for 2.2?
16:55:58 <cstim> anyone who knows German: http://www.heise.de/open/news/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=13139672&forum_id=120526
16:56:27 <cstim> some very enthusiastic comment about "how gnucash really made me abandon Windows completely", and "thank you so much, gnucash team"
16:57:27 <chris> And should we maybe hold off on new developement on trunk so that we can cut 2.2.1 directly from trunk?
16:57:42 <chris> development, even.
16:57:44 <warlord> I was wondering when we want to branch...
16:58:01 <cstim> I would prefer a branch not yet right now, but maybe in 1..2..3 weeks from now.
16:59:01 <chris> that sounds reasonable. I don't think we have new code urgently waiting to land.
16:59:24 <warlord> Actually, it looks like we already have a branches/2.2
16:59:30 <andi5> but why? we could ease the backport procedure from 1, 2, 3 weeks as well
16:59:39 <andi5> s,from,for,
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17:00:00 <cstim> warlord: yes, wilddev copied to branches/2.2 instead of tags/2.2.0; I wonder whether this was intended or just accidental
17:00:31 <warlord> I dont know... But then andi made changes to the branch..
17:00:38 <chris> andi5: what's the question?
17:01:01 <andi5> why do you want to hold off branches/2.2
17:01:53 <andi5> [btw, i just remembered the great reindentation, like every 3 weeks or so ;-)]
17:02:00 <chris> I think just to reduce the need for backporting.
17:02:41 <warlord> andi5: is there anything lined up for trunk that we dont want in 2.0.1?
17:02:58 <andi5> not from me
17:03:25 <warlord> right, so might as well delay the branch until we really want to diverge.
17:03:35 <chris> warlord: well, I was just about to replace SWIG with ... nevermind </badjoke>.
17:04:20 <chris> [#gnucash]
17:04:22 <warlord> LOL
17:04:28 <jsled> heh.
17:04:40 <chris> BTW, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=452496
17:04:57 <chris> I'm hoping someone with some time can review that.
17:04:59 * andi5 ducks
17:06:10 <chris> It's kind of unfortunate that we released 2.2.0 with known data-loss bugs.
17:06:26 <chris> (well, at least one bug, at least)
17:06:55 <warlord> it wasn't marked as critical ;)
17:07:06 <chris> warlord: actually, it was.
17:07:27 <andi5> without milestone
17:07:33 <warlord> AH, no target
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17:08:12 <chris> true.
17:09:29 <cstim> chris: indeed. setting a target:2.2.0 would have marked this as a blocker for the release.
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17:12:07 <cstim> andi5: didn't we miss/skip some gtk/gnome updates on windows anyway in the recent weeks?
17:12:24 <chris> cstim: ok, good to know.
17:13:11 <andi5> cstim: yes, but i did not want to update without a bug that gets fixed by that
17:13:31 <cstim> andi5: yes, that was what I silently assumed as well.
17:14:34 <andi5> cstim: on trunk we could make major jumps, but hey.... we just kind of decided to rip off b/2.2 again ;-)
17:16:39 <chris> andi5: Do you prefer to just go with the existing b/2.2? And do you want to be the Backporter?
17:17:21 <andi5> i cannot promise anything for the coming six weeks or so... do not count on me :)
17:18:16 <cstim> no backporter job for me, too
17:18:29 <andi5> well, let us keep on trunk then
17:19:11 <chris> ok. Maybe in 6 weeks (2.2.2?) things will be different.
17:19:13 <andi5> that should not hold off new contributions, of course.... they could either happen on a feature branch or make the branching of 2.2 happen
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17:19:25 <cstim> Actually I didn't show up here for technicalities... Let's celebrate the successful 2.2.0!
17:19:30 <cstim> Great job everyone!
17:19:37 <warlord> Yep! Nice job everyone!
17:19:43 <andi5> cstim: do you have some table wine as well?
17:19:50 <jsled> Woo hoo!
17:20:12 * chris throws the confetti.
17:20:37 * cstim hands out the German beer
17:21:42 <andi5> /topic is boring, btw
17:21:45 <warlord> YUM
17:22:14 <cstim> There are 4-7 comments on heise.de (out of the 90) asking "well, I'll probably give it a try, because it's now available on windows..."
17:22:17 <cstim> yeah
17:23:24 <warlord> hehe
17:24:15 * chris gets ready to rain on the parade.
17:24:28 <chris> I just got BZ email on http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435642
17:24:58 <chris> IMO, this is a process failure. Does anyone care to opine?
17:25:32 <chris> (btw, I'm afk: back in about an hour)\
17:25:42 <warlord> "Process failure"?
17:25:52 <luuuciano> Hi! I am looking for an application to enter the home income/outcome, and have monthly balances... gnucash will be too much/big for this simple task?
17:25:56 <cstim> "opine"?
17:26:26 <cstim> chris is talking in mysteries
17:26:28 <warlord> luuuciano: you could use gnucash for that.
17:26:43 <cstim> warlord: You can? How come!
17:26:54 <cstim> What was the name of this channel again?
17:27:07 * cstim hands out another round of beer
17:27:09 <warlord> cstim: huh?
17:27:10 <jsled> heh.
17:27:16 <warlord> * takes a beer *
17:27:19 <andi5> #bugzilla?
17:27:21 <cstim> cheers
17:27:29 <warlord> Prost!
17:28:35 <cstim> ok, have fun everyone. I'm off to sleep.
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17:28:52 <cstim> andi5: I even tried emailing computerbild.de
17:29:11 <andi5> maybe someone could ping download.com and give them some correct and up-to-date information
17:29:32 <andi5> cstim: ooook
17:30:09 <andi5> if they print something that would be the first time i would bye one
17:31:07 <warlord> hm
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18:15:04 <chris> ok folks, when the buzz wears off, I'd really like know how a regular patch contributor (mta) files a bug report with a stack trace, clear step-by-step reproduction instructions and a minimal test file ends up marked RESOLVED-INCOMPLETE, with no evidence anyone even tried to reproduce it.
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18:29:20 <jsled> chris: that sucks? what's the bug#?
18:29:48 <jsled> (/me goes afk for a bit)
18:32:38 <chris> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435642
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18:55:01 <jsled> Oh. Well, that was resolved by someone @gnome.org.
18:55:18 <jsled> I think there's a time-based policy for those closures.
18:55:23 <jsled> I'm just used to cstim seeing it.
18:55:34 <jsled> er, cstim doing (the closures).
18:56:38 <jsled> We might want to get in touch with Pedro and ask him to step off or something.
18:57:25 <jsled> Heck, maybe he closed the wrong bug by accident.
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19:23:35 <chris> over-zealous gnomies may be part of the problem, but I think the real problem is many people expect NEEDINFO to mean "this bug is useless unless more info is provided", while cstim also uses NEEDINFO to mean "I asked a question", regardless of how useful the bug report is without that info.
19:25:52 <chris> I see NEEDINFO bugs resolved as INCOMPLETE semi-regularly from this same pattern, but this one is just particularly unjustified, so I'm speaking up.
19:26:06 * jsled agress
19:26:12 * jsled agrees, too.
19:26:23 <warlord> ok.
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19:58:01 <chris> For the record, I think cstim does a great job keeping the bugzilla signal-to-noise ratio high. The signal loss-rate is just a little to high for my comfort.
20:04:17 <warlord> chris: I think cstim does a great job, too. It's the non-gnucash bugsquad that seems to be dropping stuff.
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20:07:36 <jsled> Frankly, I've never seen them involved in our bugs. Which again makes me wonder if he just closed the wrong bug by accident.
20:07:59 <chris> warlord: well, the non-gnucash bugsquad are following the bug triage guidelines.
20:08:13 <chris> jsled: I see it pretty regularly.
20:08:43 <warlord> jsled: I've seen it regularly.
20:09:09 <chris> There are about a half-dozen or so people that just routinely close out bugs that sit in NEEDINFO for more than 4 weeks.
20:10:29 * warlord wonders if we want to run our own bugzilla...
20:10:35 <warlord> (probably not)
20:11:04 <chris> For example, http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/TriageGuide says specifically not to use NEEDINFO for bugs that include a stack trace.
20:12:28 <chris> and gives "this sucks" or "this crashed" as examples of NEEDINFO.
20:13:29 <warlord> I wish there were a state for "bug is real but still waiting for more information to help track it down".
20:15:02 <chris> warlord: like NEW?
20:15:27 <jsled> Or NEEDINFO? :)
20:16:55 <warlord> chris: perhaps we dont use "ASSIGNED" enough..
20:19:33 * chris goes to look up how to assign warlord 400 bugs en masse. :)
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20:21:51 <jsled> At least in my opinion, ASSIGNED is "I'm actively attending to this issue"; given that definition, we probably don't misuse it (unfortunately).
20:22:29 <warlord> :-P
20:22:42 <warlord> jsled: that's sort of what I thought.
20:23:10 <warlord> chris: that :-P was to you
20:30:31 <chris> some emoticons just don't deserve a response!
20:31:03 <warlord> LOL
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21:55:35 <mzanfardino> I'm new to gnucash but have used Quicken for years. I'm by no means an accountant, but have some basic understanding of accounting. I have a home mortgage with a home equity line of credit (HELOC). I want to configure Gnucash to reflect this. I've setup an asset account to reflect the assessed value of my home and a liability to for the mortgage. What/how would I set up my HELOC?
21:57:51 <warlord> mzanfardino: I'd set it up as a regular liability account (or a CC).
22:01:05 <mzanfardino> warlord: ok, now, the HELOC has a total value (much like a CC has a limit) and a balance. How would I set this up? I could create another Asset in the amount of the available line of credit and offset the assessed value of the house asset by that much, or should I just set up the liability with the balanace and not worry about the available credit?
22:01:34 <jsled> the latter sounds a lot simpler. :)
22:01:42 <warlord> gnucash doesn't really handle "credit limits"
22:01:53 <jsled> (well, a little bit simpler, anyways)
22:01:56 <mzanfardino> heh... simple yes, but is it a valid method to track?
22:02:22 <mzanfardino> ok, but the bottom line is: the HELOC account should be setup as a liability.
22:02:57 <mzanfardino> and if I want to track the asset, I would have to make the house and the HELOC assets total the total assessed value of my home (I'm guessing here)
22:03:12 <warlord> Something like that, yeah.
22:04:19 <mzanfardino> for ex: house assess at 100k and HELOC caps at 50k then house asset would be 50k and HELOC asset would be 50k with a mortgage liability for some value of the mortage (say 45k) and a liability HELOC of the balance of the HELOC (say 10k)
22:04:52 <mzanfardino> of the house is assessed down the line at 150k, I simply increase the house asset by 50k...
22:04:56 <mzanfardino> ok, I think I get it
22:05:47 <chris> mzanfardino: not quite, I think.
22:07:31 <chris> I would just have a house asset for the assessed value, and a liability for the balance of the HELOC.
22:08:00 <chris> the HELOC is not an asset.
22:08:51 <chris> at least not in the accounting sense.
22:10:11 <chris> It's a liability, just like the mortgage.
22:11:11 <chris> and the cap of the HELOC has no affect on the house asset at all.
22:16:55 <chris> If a bank offers to lend you $1M, and you respond, "no thanks, not now," that offer doesn't (and shouldn't) get reflected on any standard financial statement.
22:17:43 <chris> The offer itself may feel like an asset, but unless you actual get the money, it's not an Asset.
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23:48:37 <DocPlatypus> just wanted to say congrats on 2.2.0
23:48:44 <jsled> thanks. :)
23:49:27 <DocPlatypus> and I found through experimentation that post-2.1.2 files work fine in pre-2.1.2 versions if you have no scheduled transactions
23:49:36 <DocPlatypus> you just get an annoying "root account" that pre-2.1.2 doesn't know what the quack to do with
23:49:40 <jsled> that's correct.
23:50:26 <DocPlatypus> I personally have no real use for scheduled transactions anyway, I'm no longer in an apartment and I just record my monthly payments as I make them
23:51:39 <DocPlatypus> is "close books" supposed to be fully working now?
23:51:51 <jsled> No, unfortunately. Is it still enabled in the menus?
23:51:57 <DocPlatypus> I thought it was
23:52:03 <DocPlatypus> err
23:52:05 <DocPlatypus> yes it is enabled I mean
23:52:11 <jsled> Oh, shoot.
23:53:01 <DocPlatypus> let me look again
23:53:06 <DocPlatypus> the only box I have with 2.2.0 is Windows XP
23:53:12 <DocPlatypus> there's no Debian package for it yet that I saw
23:53:23 <jsled> No, I don't believe there is, yet.
23:53:57 <DocPlatypus> yes "close books" is live in 2.2.0
23:54:28 <DocPlatypus> and the "root account" still shows up when I open this file in 2.2.0 ... is it supposed to?
23:56:54 <jsled> Did you save the file with the "root account" with <=2.1.2?
23:57:03 <DocPlatypus> I may have at one point
23:57:56 <jsled> I'm not quite sure how the account-group/root account stuff played out, but I could easily believe that when the previous version saves it, it "promotes" the root account into a "real" account.
23:58:33 <jsled> I need to move along. G'night.
23:58:48 <DocPlatypus> ok