2007-04-10 GnuCash IRC logs
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05:15:40 <jonti> does gnucash handle european VAT yet?
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05:17:29 <jonti> or is there a way of tweaking things to make it usable here?
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07:24:50 <jonti> looks like gnuCash can do VAT ...
07:25:14 <jonti> https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2003-July/007526.html
07:25:32 <jonti> ... but there's some faffing about involved to set it up!
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08:02:07 <warlord> jonti: it CAN do VAT, but for normal transactions you have to enter the VAT manually.
08:02:25 <warlord> (the invoicing system can handle VAT just fine, but it's more work to enter transactions that way)
08:03:14 <jonti> you mean enter the VAT amount and the net amount separately?
08:03:18 <jonti> that's ok
08:06:41 <jonti> but it's VAT reporting that is *vital*
08:07:26 <warlord> Well, I mean creating a Split transaction with the VAT and Net amounts in different splits.
08:07:39 <warlord> But no, nobody has donated a "VAT Report"
08:09:41 <jonti> ahh, one needs to fill in the VAT 100 form -- or suffer the slings and arrows of an outrageous Customs&Excise ;)
08:10:55 <jonti> i posted an url above that may be a VAT report (i'm not sure)
08:14:21 <warlord> You mean the July 2003 message? That's not a report. A report would be a scheme program.
08:14:42 <warlord> What you posted was a VAT-related account hierarchy.
08:14:54 <jonti> well, i suppose it's a start
08:15:28 <jonti> it seems one would need to write scheme code to produce a periodic printout of the VAT account?
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08:15:44 <jonti> and no-one's done that just yet
08:16:24 <jonti> hmmm ... awkward
08:18:35 <jonti> Is anyone using gnucash to keep their VAT records?
08:19:52 <warlord> yes, one would need to write the report (a scheme program) to produce the VAT report. and correct, nobody has done that yet.
08:20:07 <warlord> I suspect people ARE using gnucash to keep VAT records.
08:21:30 <warlord> But there are other reports that will tell you how much VAT you've spent and how much you've received.
08:21:49 <jonti> well, if one's turnover is > $120000 (£60000 GBP) in the EU, then one tends to have to account for VAT
08:22:32 <warlord> Ok.
08:22:39 <jonti> the VAT report is (roughly) just the analysed difference between vat spent and vat collected
08:23:06 <jonti> i'm going to have to look into this
08:25:13 <warlord> If you write a VAT report please send it in.
08:25:41 <jonti> oh! I will :) (if I do)
08:25:51 <jonti> i've never used scheme, mind
08:26:06 <jonti> but it's just some kind of code, i guess ;)
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08:27:23 <warlord> Yep.
08:27:31 <warlord> And it's really easy to learn.
08:29:36 <jonti> gnucash does look the best bet for accounting
08:29:51 <jonti> i've spent a few hours having a look at what's out there
08:30:31 <warlord> Thank you
08:31:01 <jonti> i'm on a course for computerised accounting using sage
08:31:16 <jonti> reckon i'll shadow things in gnucash
08:31:22 <jonti> see how that goes
08:32:01 <jonti> sage is a "must have" application in that something like 70% of uk businesses use it!
08:32:41 <jonti> so knowing how to migrate folks off their expensive and insecure windoes boxen (and expensive sage) may be a Good Idea
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08:39:53 <warlord> Ok
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09:18:37 <warlord> jsled: it's possible that www.gnucash.org wont let us do .htaccess overrides.
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09:24:48 <jsled> warlord: we use them in some of the other dirs, though that might just be coincidental. But I don't think so; I recall fiddling with them to get stuff to work before.
09:26:34 <warlord> Ok.
09:26:40 <warlord> Is it working now? ;)
09:27:06 <jsled> no.
09:27:44 <warlord> IIRC last time you had to convert the files to iso
09:30:06 <jsled> I thought I was super-insistent on not doing that.
09:30:12 <jsled> But whatever. That might be the work-around here.
09:32:42 <warlord> You were super-insistant on that. But then again you're also super-insistant on having Apache think it knows better what the encoding of a file is...
09:33:01 <jsled> That's the "that" I was referring to.
09:34:20 <warlord> Hm
09:34:39 <warlord> Well, getting the apache config changed on www.gnucash.org might be possible..
09:34:50 <warlord> We can send email to Linas..
09:35:23 <jsled> And FWIW, I'm not insistent about apache knowing better than the file, but of using HTTP according to spec so user-agents don't need to sniff the content, as they're in an even worse position to guess.
09:36:17 <jsled> Right, I'll do that now. I'm going to request that everything is served as utf-8.
09:36:17 <warlord> Well, either Apache has to sniff the content or the user-agent does.
09:36:37 <warlord> I'm fine with that.
09:38:40 <warlord> ... provided we go and verify that all our content is utf8 ;)
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11:31:27 <warlord> @op benoitg
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11:55:16 <warlord> jsled: ping?
11:55:29 <jsled> pong
11:57:44 <warlord> jsled: The Google people are going through their process at 3pm PDT today. I'm wondering if we should have a 5th person in line, in case one of our four isn't available (because it would be a duplicate assignment)?
11:58:33 <jsled> warlord: there are no notices on any of their pages that they have a mentor pending with anyother org.
11:58:42 <jsled> Which we have seen on other ppl's pages.
11:59:12 <jsled> e.g., the "grammar-based expression" app.
11:59:36 <jsled> #5 was fine too, as I recall.
11:59:56 <warlord> Ahh
12:08:16 <jsled> done. I'd hate to get stuck with 3 mentorships, though.
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12:10:11 <warlord> You wont.
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12:18:59 <chris> [off[ since warlord keeps asking, I'll say that I think I have a slight preference for #5 over #4, but nothing I could really defend rigorously.
12:31:20 <warlord> chris: thanks
12:36:19 <warlord> BIAB
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13:12:46 <jsled> Heh. Of course, http://www.gnucash.org/de/ is in ISO-8859-1. But that we can fix.
13:12:47 <Tonren> My date fields in account registers spontaneously stopped showing changes, until they lose focus. I'm using KDE and Beryl. Could one of them be the problem?
13:13:45 <Tonren> In fact, display seems generally screwed up. I wonder what the hell is going on...
13:14:01 <andi5> Tonren: you can easily find that out by not using beryl :)
13:14:17 <jsled> "KDE", not so much. I'd put my bet on Beryl...
13:15:11 <Tonren> It's just no fair. The four apps I use the most are Gaim, GnuCash, amaroK and k3b. No matter what DE I use, two of 'em are always loose cannons.
13:16:06 <hampton> I run Gaim, GnuCash and amaroK regularly without problems.
13:16:56 <Tonren> Oop - and so I eat my words. It's Beryl, all right.
13:17:01 <Tonren> Time to do some forum checking.
13:17:19 <Tonren> Weird... GnuCash is the only application I've ever had Beryl problems with.
13:17:40 <hampton> is it just the date widget?
13:17:47 <andi5> Tonren: i tried gnucash with beryl a few days ago, but not extensively... maybe not even with registers open :)
13:18:20 <Tonren> hampton: It's the date widget, and also, when you add new transactions, they don't get drawn properly
13:18:46 <Tonren> Certain columns get drawn right, but other don't, so the proper dollar amounts aren't matched up with their corresponding descriptions
13:19:11 <andi5> probably some funny beryl bug not telling gnucash everything ;-)
13:19:38 <Tonren> Most likely. It's weird, though, because I feel like I use another app with a date widget that works just fine. Well, I'm sure there are at least a dozen other layers for it to get hosed on...
13:20:12 <hampton> With the date widget, I would guess its the ancient copy of the gnome1 date widget that was copied into the gnucash sources and hacked. We really need to get rid of it and use the gnome2 date widget.
13:20:29 <Tonren> Harsh.
13:20:39 <Tonren> Well, I'll just switch WMs while I use GnuCash.
13:20:52 <andi5> hampton: i guess that is part of the register-rewrite, if not already done by chris, right?
13:21:05 <hampton> pfth. I've been wanting to get rid of that duplication of effort for a couple of years and never gotten around to it.
13:21:07 <Tonren> Aaghh! Transparency... wobbly windows... gone!
13:21:15 <Tonren> Also, GnuCash looks awful when you have a dark theme.
13:21:16 <hampton> andi5: don't know. think its used elsewhere too.
13:21:36 <Tonren> I can't find a way to make the main Accounts page dollar balances appear in any color other than black. :\
13:21:47 <hampton> 2.0 should use the standard system theme.
13:22:00 <hampton> ah, yes. we may explicitly set black/red as text colors there.
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13:23:46 <warlord> I think the GncDateEdit widget is used in a number of places. It provides the keyboard accelerators and Timespec APIs.
13:24:45 <hampton> right. but it should be possible to use the standard GnomeDateEdit widget and override the key-press-event signal.
13:25:11 <hampton> Then we just need to wrap that with the Timespec API.
13:25:36 <hampton> Of just derive a GncDateEdit widget from a GnomeDateEdit widget and stick the timespec api in that file.
13:26:00 <warlord> Is it GnomeDateEdit or GtkDateEdit?
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13:26:13 <warlord> (and yes, we should just derive.. I dont know why we didn't)
13:26:21 <hampton> GnomeDateEdit
13:26:37 <hampton> before my time. :-)
13:27:04 <andi5> why not GtkCalendar?
13:27:15 <andi5> oops...
13:28:02 <warlord> Yeah, it's before ALL of our time.
13:29:43 <warlord> jsled: can you make sure that svn.gnucash.org is doing the right thing w.r.t. utf8 v. iso? I'm pretty sure the mailman/pipermail archives are in ISO...
13:29:57 <warlord> (the search interface is probably (now) a combination of ISO and UTF8...)
13:30:33 <jsled> Huh. The FR conversion was fine, but the DE one doesn't work...
13:30:51 <jsled> warlord: yeah.
13:31:06 <warlord> Huh.
13:31:08 <warlord> Weird.
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13:38:35 <andi5> chris: ping ;-)
13:38:57 <warlord> hiya cstim
13:39:04 <cstim> hampton: why again was it decided to remove -Wno-unused from CFLAGS? :-)
13:39:06 <cstim> hi all
13:39:14 <warlord> jsled: you should talk to cstim about the website translation?
13:39:20 * cstim is the baby sitter tonight
13:39:29 <warlord> cstim: because swig-1.3.31 should have removed the need for it.
13:39:51 <cstim> *sigh* opensuse 10.2 has swig-1.3.29
13:40:11 <jsled> All comments welcome, of course. It appears that though po/de.po says it's iso-8859-1, it might already be in UTF-8...
13:40:33 <cstim> jsled: I don't think so
13:40:34 <andi5> jsled: /me is downloading right now
13:40:53 <cstim> jsled: http://svn.gnucash.org/trac/changeset/15863 clearly shows the encoding conversion
13:41:14 <jsled> Oh, that's curious.
13:41:28 <cstim> however, I suspect gettext already got the encoding converted on-the-fly correctly.
13:42:31 <andi5> i can confirm that it was iso before and is not utf-8 now
13:42:44 <chris> Yeah, I used GtkCalendar in the register-erwrite
13:42:47 <cstim> andi5: not utf-8 now? really?
13:42:48 <chris> andi5: pong
13:43:06 <chris> jsled: the de conversion looks wrong in the commit, too.
13:43:11 <jsled> yeah.
13:43:43 <jsled> I think when I changed the Content-Type line in the pofile, it was saved out wrongly.
13:43:45 <andi5> looks like a utf-8 file opened as iso and saved then
13:44:49 <andi5> jsled: iirc it suffices to just change the declaration at the top and save, but i may be wron g:)
13:44:49 <hampton> Does GtkCalendar provide a date entry box, or it just the widget that shows a calendar page and lets you choose a date.
13:45:01 <cstim> andi5: NO, that does NOT suffice
13:45:10 <cstim> especially the "just save" part.
13:45:42 <andi5> cstim: cannot check it now (do not have po-mode here), too bad
13:46:10 <andi5> but you are probably right anyway
13:46:31 <cstim> jsled: your last htdocs commit just needs to be reverted.
13:46:56 <cstim> jsled: Thinking about it, who gave you the idea to change the *po encodings* in the first place?
13:47:22 <jsled> cstim: no one, besides the content on the site being incorrect.
13:48:08 <chris> hampton: It's just the calendar widget, I believe, but in the register, it's got a date entry box.
13:48:18 <andi5> hampton: http://live.gnome.org/LibgnomeMustDie
13:48:20 * jsled will revert 15863 and see what's up on the site, and go from there.
13:49:36 <warlord> cstim: trunk has required 1.3.31 for a while now.
13:49:38 <cstim> jsled: because with the .po files, I would still believe these are converted by gettext into whatever encoding the PHP environment is asking for.
13:49:58 <jsled> cstim: as you say that, it doesn't seem unreasonable.
13:50:23 <jsled> cstim: but I did check the site after linas' change, and fr/ and de/ were not being returned correctly.
13:50:36 <jsled> cstim: I'm not sure which agent is to blame.
13:50:49 <cstim> warlord: required swig-1.3.31? not explicitly. I was building fine with 1.3.29.
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13:51:17 <andi5> seems like trunk depends on 1.3.28
13:52:04 <jsled> (right. revert committed)
13:52:50 <warlord> Oh, you're right... Odd. We only explicitly require 1.3.28/
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13:53:14 <jsled> hah. So now de/ does't work no matter what encoding I force in the browser. awesomes.
13:53:28 <jsled> (doesn't.)
13:53:29 <warlord> LOL
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13:56:03 <jsled> Well, I'm now at the point where I'll need to deal with this later. So I will.
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13:59:33 <warlord> :(
13:59:52 <andi5> hm... i cannot find $REPOS/hooks/update-website .... is there one not publically visible?
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14:00:03 <jsled> that's correct.
14:00:17 <cstim> jsled: for me, gnucash.org/de/ does not work by default, but works when I manually set the browser to iso 8859-1
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14:00:46 <andi5> strange, not for me
14:01:04 <jsled> cstim: you're right, it does for me as well.
14:01:11 <jsled> I probably needed to force-reload, earlier.
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14:01:45 <jsled> Which confirms what I thought I saw earlier: this scenario made me believe that the iso-8859-1 encoding of the pofile was relevant.
14:01:46 <andi5> ok, now it works... see above ;)
14:02:12 <jsled> computers suck.
14:02:51 <cstim> jsled: what about the German translated news file, news/de/060618.news
14:03:23 <cstim> I guess the news files will surely not be recoded in any way when served.
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14:05:48 <cstim> Maia wants to type, too:
14:06:14 <cstim> vvvv hhbbfbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbvvvvvvsssssssssssssssswwwwarlordsssdcf
14:07:11 <andi5> cstim: so did you let her type something eventually?
14:07:33 <jsled> hee.
14:07:52 <cstim> vzch vh x 6 5z6ttugtut6cfgt6cczhg ttzz uttttttttttttttthhhh
14:08:03 <warlord> cstim: Maia saying hello to me?
14:08:25 <cstim> warlord: yes! dah dah hmmmm, she says.
14:08:26 <warlord> Hi Maia!
14:08:31 <andi5> warlord: sounded like cursing to me ;-)
14:08:35 <warlord> LOL
14:08:46 <warlord> It's baby talk. It sounds like whatever you want it to sound like.
14:10:35 <cstim> Hm. Recoding the above-mentioned news file seems to be ignored by svn and I cannot commit that.
14:11:29 <warlord> It's ignored? Huh! That's weird.
14:11:56 <warlord> What SVN properties do the files have?
14:12:14 <andi5> none for me
14:14:29 <andi5> so we have mixed encodings now, i like it :)
14:15:57 <warlord> heh
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14:54:32 <cstim> jsled: how about adding bind_textdomain_codeset to lang.php?
14:54:42 <cstim> http://de3.php.net/manual/en/function.bind-textdomain-codeset.php
14:56:13 <cstim> in fact, I'll just give it a try
14:58:28 <cstim> Hm. Didn't work. The resulting text is still in iso 8859 (except for the news article)
15:02:31 <cstim> see ya
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16:09:28 <andi5> Q: is http://pastebin.ca/raw/433434 reasonable? this occurs on windows if we can create lock files, write our temporary file but cannot unlink the data file (to prepare the replacement), because the file is read-only.... i think it is better than just chmoding the file... any thoughts?
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16:17:25 <warlord> andi5: I wish we could write a testcase that shows the issue before you go changing this. The file error codes are relatively finicky.
16:20:57 <andi5> i think this type of error is impossible on unix systems unless the rights of the parent directory change while saving the file ....
16:22:08 <warlord> Change /while/ saving the file?
16:22:27 <andi5> yes
16:22:36 <warlord> Hmm
16:23:59 <andi5> ok, maybe this can happen in /tmp if you open a file you do not own.... maybe
16:26:05 <andi5> i _think_ that on save, both error codes behave the same...
16:27:06 <andi5> well, i can leave it as is.... the current behavior does not really hurt
16:29:18 <andi5> (an error dialog is showed telling the user that gnucash could not create a backup file .... actually it did, so the error may sound worse than the reality is and is misleading, not telling the user that he needs to remove the files read-only flag)
16:31:53 <warlord> You're welcome to change the code.. I just want to make sure there aren't other side effects. Those things are pretty subtle.
16:33:38 <andi5> ok
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17:23:08 <andi5> warlord: may you take a look at http://pastebin.ca/raw/433539 ? i am not at all completely sure this is correct :)
17:23:38 <warlord> You say that all the time, andi5 ;)
17:23:50 <andi5> oh, really?
17:23:53 <andi5> ;-)
17:24:04 <andi5> then it must be true
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17:24:26 <warlord> Looks correct.
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18:44:45 <jsled> so, <http://www.gnucash.org/de/> looks better, here, but I'd love a second opinion.
18:45:11 <chris> jsled: looks awful here.
18:45:45 <chris> (but I didn't see it before, so it have improved for all I know.)
18:45:53 <chris> (may have)
18:46:32 <jsled> Well, does it have a bunch of ü's, or <?>'s ?
18:46:39 <chris> It's actually in latin-1, but being advertised as utf-8
18:46:49 <jsled> chris: force-reload, maybe?
18:47:44 <jsled> AHAG! WTF?
18:48:36 <jsled> I get different things between different reloads.
18:49:16 <chris> hmm, seems better now.
18:50:26 <chris> I was definitely just served the document in two different encodings within 2 minutes.
18:50:31 <jsled> yeah.
18:51:05 <chris> oh, and there it goes again.
18:53:52 <chris> that's just odd.
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19:10:24 <warlord> jsled: looks good here.
19:11:42 <jsled> warlord: just reload it a few times ... it eventually wont. :(
19:11:47 <warlord> Huh.
19:11:54 <jsled> I have a feeling that there's some state in one of the handlers in httpd ...
19:11:56 <warlord> I did a force-reload a couple times and it was okay..
19:12:08 <jsled> when you get serviced by it, it returns a mis-encoded page.
19:12:14 * jsled totally guesses at shit
19:12:20 <warlord> Anyways, swimtime.
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19:18:07 <hampton> weird. 2 of 15 times came up with weird characters. The rest showed the right umlauted characters.
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19:32:15 <BlackBsd> let me see if im doing this right, when i started using gcash i put some ballances that I have on my student loans in the Equity::Opening balance, now i have an equity of negative.
19:32:21 <BlackBsd> should this of went somewhere else
19:32:34 <BlackBsd> to maybe be an education expense or something
19:33:58 <BlackBsd> now when i get my next loan dispersment, im going to transfer it into an education expense
19:34:15 <BlackBsd> so i was thinking that is maybe where the others should go??
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20:32:23 <LiamH> How do I get a report to include dollar values of the transactions for mutual funds (not just number of shares)? The account tab shows this information, but the report does not.
20:34:28 <jsled> LiamH: which report?
20:34:55 <LiamH> jsled: Account Report
20:39:19 <jsled> I'm not sure the Account Report can be coerced. You can have it show the price.
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20:39:57 <jsled> Maybe a Transaction Report will do so.
20:40:56 <jsled> yeah ... there you can select the fund account, add both the # shares and price columns (if desired), but set the report currency to USD.
20:46:22 <LiamH> OK, I did the Account Transaction Report, and I see that I can set it to show Shares and Price. But it only shows me one line, a blank one, not the history of the account. I've checked and set the Accounting Period correctly.
20:47:40 <jsled> LiamH: did you set the report range in the General options?
20:52:51 <LiamH> no, I set it under Preferences -> Accounting Period. Where are general options?
20:53:36 <jsled> Edit > Report Options
20:53:39 <jsled> (when viewing the report)
20:55:32 <LiamH> OK I checked those, I don't see anywhere to set a report range. The General tab has Report name, Stylesheet, and Title, and that's it.
20:56:08 <jsled> Ah. Try the "Transaction Report" (just above the separator), not hte "Account Transaction Report".
20:57:22 <jsled> You'll need to set the date range (on "General") and the Account(s) included (on "Accounts").
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20:58:18 <LiamH> Ah ha, that works.
21:00:25 <LiamH> One more thing... is there a way to get rid of the monthly totals? I just want a line by line listing.
21:00:49 <jsled> perhaps on one of the other options pages ... I'm not very familiar with the report, so I'd just hunt through them myself.
21:01:18 <LiamH> OK, well thanks for all your help. I basically have what I need now.
21:01:22 <jsled> but I'm going to guess not.
21:01:51 <jsled> Most of the reports don't have configurable summarizing ... they're either written for summarizing or not.
21:02:08 <LiamH> found it: Sorting -> Secondary Subtotal for Date Key: None
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21:02:16 <jsled> ah, well, there you go. :)
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21:14:35 <warlord> BlackBsd: you transfered from E:O B to where? The Equity accounts are only touched when you start gnucash or at periodic intervals when you "close the books". They give you a snapshot of your equity at a point in time. They do NOT give you instantaneous equity.
21:17:13 <BlackBsd> warloard, is it good to close the book every year or something..
21:17:43 <BlackBsd> so this is my first time using gcash so my current debt goes into my neg equtity
21:17:58 <BlackBsd> how do i perform a transaction from one book to another?
21:18:55 <BlackBsd> if its the same i guess i aquire assets or liabilities over the course of the year which will get added to my equity for the opening ballance of the new year
21:18:56 <BlackBsd> i guess
21:20:38 <BlackBsd> But, i could add homes, cars to my opening equity if i have them paid off?
21:20:57 <BlackBsd> which would be instataneous equit?
21:21:45 <warlord> you dont have to "close the books".
21:22:10 <warlord> You cannot transfer from one book to another.. You'd have to have "hooks" in both boths for the transfers (or use Equity)
21:22:32 <warlord> "if its the same"... This is correct.
21:22:48 <warlord> Instantaneous Equity: Run the Balance Sheet report.
21:50:29 <warlord> ok, i'm off.
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22:19:45 <john_> I can't figure out if gnucash prints multiple checks, or just one at a time. Can u help?
22:19:55 <jsled> IIRC, one at a time.
22:20:02 <john_> thx
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