2007-03-30 GnuCash IRC logs
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03:23:34 <michaelg> gnu user here! just installed on xubuntu (xfce desketop, not gnome. app not added to my applications menu. where do i find the executable (linux novice, for sure)
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03:29:19 <warlord> michaelg: please ask questions in the group and not using private message.
03:33:04 <warlord> michaelg: you asked: <michaelg> hey warlord! "gnu" user here! just installed gnucash on xubuntu (xfce desketop, not gnome. app not added to my applications menu. where do i find the executable (linux novice, for sure :^)
03:33:11 <warlord> the answer is: /usr/bin/gnucash
03:33:21 <warlord> I have no idea where ubuntu put the icon in your menus.
03:34:19 <aj> warlord: (he asked on channel a couple minutes before you joined, fwiw)
03:34:38 <warlord> Ah
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04:33:50 <michaelg> Thanks, guys. Stepped away. I'm using the stripped down version--Xubuntu--so the menues are weird. Confirm there's a gnucash file in usr/bin/, got it to execute rom the terminal. That's going to be a nuisance. I even installed with the package manager. Thanks for getting me going.
04:36:37 <warlord> michaelg: If it's a nuisance then I suggest you contact the distro and ask them about it.
04:36:51 <michaelg> on my way
04:38:13 <michaelg> While I'm here, Ubuntu's gnucash is 1.8, which is fine. Would the 2.0.5 new task oriented Documentation still apply?
04:39:47 <warlord> Some. The pictures will be wrong.
04:40:48 <michaelg> gracias. I'll check it out. bye
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08:59:43 <esodan> Hi all
09:01:56 <esodan> I'm planning to create a library with alot of GInterfaces in order to implement the same GC's features but in diferent way
09:02:51 <esodan> The first implementation must be on the actual code using QOF (with or with out porting it to GObject)
09:03:20 <esodan> A second implementation I want to be using GDA objects
09:04:02 <esodan> In both implementations I'm considering to implement the GdaDataModel interface to access the data
09:05:12 <esodan> This GdaDataModel must be implemented using QOF or GDA (GdaDataModel has a lot of implementations for direct database access)
09:07:28 <chris> esodan: what happened to GObjectizing the GnuCash objects? Are you giving up?
09:08:57 <esodan> Well I want to do it, there's a lot of work I need to repeat (again)...
09:09:53 <esodan> I don't know what to think about QOF
09:10:28 <esodan> QOF has a lot of work behind, with diferent ideas about C Object implementation
09:10:49 <esodan> Ideas some times FAR from GObject
09:11:43 <esodan> I have studied the code with hours in order to understand QOF
09:12:40 <esodan> when I found a feature I need to find the GObject paralell one
09:12:52 <chris> It's true, QOF has a different implementation of C objects. But we really want to go with GObject.
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09:13:09 <esodan> I realy want too
09:13:43 <esodan> but found a lot of things to change, realy A LOT
09:14:20 <esodan> most of them will need a completly re-write of QOF's code in order to be GObject
09:14:20 <chris> I really think that the email responses to your proposol described the best way forward.
09:14:41 <esodan> Let me see my e-mail...
09:15:18 <chris> I don't think reaching the first step is as hard as you think.
09:15:58 <chris> It's just that I'm not sure you understand what the first step is.
09:16:51 <warlord> Yeah, esodan.. go read my response from this morning.
09:16:59 <chris> Look carefully, at jsled's and warlord's and my responses. If there's something unclear, go ahead and ask about it.
09:17:31 <warlord> Yeah, I think jsled, chris and I agree on the approach..
09:19:41 <chris> esodan: If you think you understand, then do the minimal conversion on one object and post the results for comment.
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09:20:54 <warlord> I'd recommend Account.. It's pretty straightforward.
09:21:01 <chris> at that point, don't worry about it compiling or working; you just want to make sure everybody's on the same page about what the minimal object conversion looks like.
09:21:20 <warlord> chris: would you object to the GType != Struct Name in the first pass?
09:21:35 <warlord> (assuming gobject supports that)
09:22:03 <chris> there's no need to rename the structs.
09:22:35 <morphir> hi everyone!
09:22:39 <warlord> No, but I was thinking that the GTypes should be Gnc*.. e.g. GncAccount, GncTransaction, etc..
09:23:16 <warlord> It's not a big deal one way or the other.. I was just pondering.
09:23:26 <chris> I think that's more trouble than it's worth in the first step.
09:23:31 <esodan> I have read the e-mail, and let me say that Option 3 is done...
09:23:33 <morphir> is there any screencasts/screenrecordings of gnucash out there?
09:23:46 <chris> esodan: :(
09:23:58 <warlord> morphir: no. only screen shots.
09:24:05 <warlord> esodan: I really dont like option 3
09:24:15 <esodan> No, please I have done it in order to TEST how could be
09:24:32 <morphir> warlord, ok. Would this be of interest by the community to record tutorials?
09:24:43 <chris> morphir: actually, jsled did make a screencast, but I don't know if it's still around.
09:24:47 <warlord> morphir: um, maybe? Probably?
09:25:01 <esodan> I have to say that in the Account object the use of QofInstance as pointer doesn't affect too much code
09:25:03 <warlord> screencasts are pretty specialized.
09:25:26 <esodan> (I just modified the Account object)
09:25:27 <warlord> esodan: what about casting back and forth between QofInstance and anything else?
09:25:30 <morphir> warlord, chris yeah. But just to get ppl flying with the software
09:26:06 <warlord> morphir: like I said, I have no objection to a screencast, i just dont know that it's necessarily more useful than good documentation with screenshots.
09:26:10 <chris> esodan: how does this work: QOF_INSTANCE(acct)
09:26:16 <esodan> warlord: in the actual code there's a lot of QOF_INSTANCE macros and "acc.inst" code then
09:26:39 <warlord> esodan: Yes... But did you read my email? There's code that goes in the OTHER direction, too..
09:26:46 <esodan> QOF_INSTANCE is defined as a function that returns the QofInstance pointer
09:27:06 <warlord> yes, QOF_INSTANCE() is easy.
09:27:13 <warlord> it's the OTHER direction that's hard.
09:27:14 <morphir> warlord, I think there is a big difference between screenshots and screencasts
09:27:18 <esodan> and "acc.inst" have been changed to acc->inst
09:27:30 <warlord> esodan: yes yes yes, I understand...
09:27:33 <morphir> casts shows the program in action
09:28:01 <esodan> Does any one want to see a DIFF
09:28:14 <chris> esodan: It's really not a good idea. You did a good job of explaining it on the mailing list. And all the devs agree that it's not the best plan.
09:28:16 <morphir> the workflow gets presented better in a screencast
09:28:37 <morphir> but, is there anyone here who could help making these screencasts?
09:28:48 <morphir> like if I where to organize it..
09:28:49 <warlord> esodan: no, i dont need to see a diff.. I dont think it's the option we should take.
09:29:01 <esodan> Ok
09:29:18 <warlord> morphir: you could ask on the gnucash-user mailing list?
09:29:31 <morphir> warlord, thanks. I'll do that :)
09:29:31 <chris> esodan: I'll say, it was definitely a good option to _consider_.
09:29:39 <esodan> But a realy consider that the GObjectfication of QOF would be "just over the skin"
09:29:55 <warlord> oh, yes, absolutely.. it was definitely good to include it and explore it.
09:30:20 <warlord> esodan: please read my email from today and comment on what I said.
09:30:28 <esodan> becouse the QOF have A LOT of diferences with GObject, and I consider the solution will be hard to resolve
09:31:12 <esodan> I'll do
09:32:17 <esodan> But if you see the actual gobject-engine-dev brach you'll see that you CAN'T delete the qof_instance_init and qof_instance_release for the first QofInstance to GObject step
09:32:22 <warlord> esodan: Well, yes and no. QOF and GObject have lots of similar features, and in many cases the features are implemented differently. BUT.. in MOST cases we can migrate feature-by-feature.. And sometimes even object by object.
09:32:58 <esodan> As you sed some time ago it takes may be years
09:33:47 <esodan> But Ok, I want to work "over the skin" with QOF for know and try to construct the library I'd mentioned
09:34:22 <warlord> I'd rather you do Option 2. But I can't make you do anything ;)
09:34:52 <warlord> All I'll say are parallel code trees are really bad... and what you're proposing to do is a parallel code tree.
09:35:10 <esodan> I want to have GDA as an option in GC or unless have a library in a pure GObject implementation that wraps the actual features to allow external applications to work with GC's code
09:35:59 <esodan> warlord: I don't understand, are you comment about the library?
09:36:01 <warlord> what do you mean "GDA as an optionin GC"? If you mean "allow GnuCash to use GDA for data storage" then look in the gda-dev branch for Phil's GDA backend.
09:36:29 <warlord> Yes. I think writing a GObject-based library on TOP of QOF/GnuCash-Engine is a BAD idea.
09:37:07 <esodan> I'm thinking in creating a object hierarchy where will be some GInterfaces with the actual GC's functions
09:37:20 <warlord> Um, okay, so maybe we can't get rid of qof_instance_init() and qof_instance_release() in the first rev.
09:37:30 <esodan> or features
09:38:04 <warlord> .. that implies even LESS work. g_new0 -> g_object_new() and g_free() -> g_object_destroy() .... and you're done.
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09:40:46 <esodan> Sorry I have to leave, but I'll respond your e-mail and send a document with the library objectives and features
09:41:48 <esodan> bye
09:41:52 <warlord> I really think we'd rather go forward with the gobjectification of qof/gnucash than a separate library
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09:42:00 <warlord> * SIGHS *
09:42:08 <warlord> I wish my spanish were better..
09:43:09 <warlord> I wonder if we lost him, and he's going off on his own direction.
09:43:25 <warlord> Maybe I should just do the first pass myself this weekend instead of going around town with cstim?
09:54:45 <warlord> chris: what's your feeling?
09:59:35 <warlord> [ot] Oh, this is SO TRUE: http://syndicated.livejournal.com/xkcd_rss/55888.html
10:05:31 <warlord> eh, i've got a four hour train ride. Maybe I'll put some of that time to good use. ;)
10:07:13 <chris> warlord: I dunno.
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10:15:57 <warlord> ok
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11:35:05 <andi5> hm... is anyone going to respond to http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-devel/2007-March/020245.html ? maybe cstim should do that :)
11:38:48 <warlord> andi5: you coming to HH tomorrow?
11:38:53 <warlord> (I need to shutdown in 10 minutes)
11:39:12 <andi5> yes, we will meet 14 o'clock, probably, maybe
11:40:56 <warlord> ok
11:41:19 <warlord> I need to leave for my train soon. I have no idea what connectivity I'll have. Does cstim have 802.11? I dont know.
11:41:36 <andi5> i have no clue :)
11:42:07 <andi5> warlord: are you arriving hh right now?
11:43:43 <warlord> Well, this evening. I'm still in OF.
11:44:00 <warlord> But I'm leaving the office in 10 minutes.
11:44:27 <andi5> oh, there is a "for" in between "leave" and "my" ;-)
11:44:51 <warlord> Um, yeah. ;)
11:45:20 <andi5> have a nice trip
11:47:00 <warlord> Dankeshön
11:47:17 <warlord> (i probably misspelled that)
11:47:54 <andi5> almost correct :) ... (schön)
11:48:16 <warlord> I thought it looked wrong.
11:48:30 <andi5> s,sh,sch, is a good rule of thumb, i guess :)
11:49:01 <warlord> Um, ok
11:49:24 <warlord> Well, see you tomorrow! :)
11:49:33 <andi5> exactly, see you
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12:35:53 <jsled> morphir: Yeah, I did a set of screencasts with xvnc and some vncrecorder a while ago...
12:36:19 <jsled> morphir: I couldn't find a way to sync audio into it correctly, so I lost momentum.
12:36:45 <jsled> morphir: But there's just something about entering a Split transaction that becomes really clear when people see it done, but can be hard to convey in the dos.
12:36:49 <jsled> s/dos/docs/
12:37:37 <jsled> morphir: We've love some screencasts.
12:38:00 <jsled> Many of the other parts ... using the price db or creating a new account ... are relatively straightforward.
12:38:08 <jsled> but the register is a unique UI piece.
12:38:15 <jsled> So I'd focus on showing how that works.
12:38:57 <jsled> I had a script of a "getting started" 'cast ... I could dig it up if you like.
12:42:01 <andi5> jsled: have you rated the gsoc applications yet?
12:42:06 <jsled> andi5: yes.
12:42:10 <jsled> (most of them)
12:42:27 <jsled> my comments/ratings are at the bottom.
12:43:18 <chris> should we request more info from, say all applicants with a score > 0 ?
12:43:39 <morphir> jsled, xvidcap.sourceforge.net
12:43:44 <andi5> hm... code.google.com does not like me, read does not answer
12:44:01 <jsled> andi5: their site can be slow. :/
12:44:45 <andi5> let me see whether i can become something like a mentor without mentoring
12:45:10 <morphir> jsled, so screencast can work as two things. 1) marketing 2)documentation
12:45:18 <jsled> morphir: ah. cool. News from 2004, so it'd have been around at the time. I wonder why I didn't see it then.
12:45:48 <jsled> andi5: well, you have to actively choose to be a mentor for an application, so: yes.
12:46:27 <morphir> jsled, but most of all, a good set of sceencast would sell the software
12:46:48 <morphir> people just hit play and sit back and relaxes
12:46:50 <jsled> morphir: True. I could see us having N of each. A marketing one covering more ground shallowly, and a (set of) documentation ones that explain how to use it.
12:47:12 <jsled> Even the documentation ones can work as marketing, not the other way around, so if resources are constrained I'd go for the doc.
12:47:14 <morphir> jsled, I totally agree
12:48:22 <morphir> so, could gnucash provide storage and bandwidth for this?
12:49:09 <morphir> or would google.com/video do the trick?
12:49:45 <morphir> the quality is bad however on youtube/google-video
12:50:24 <morphir> and the licensing is 'not appropriate'
12:51:45 <morphir> jsled, you have any clue how we could do this?
12:52:20 <jsled> Why is the licensing 'not appropriate'?
12:52:58 <jsled> We might be able to host the video on {svn,lists,...}.gnucash.org; I'm not sure how bandwidth costs effect Derek. Or if it'll be prohibitive.
12:53:24 <jsled> But, yeah, that highly-compressed FLV stuff isn't too friendly, especially for display-contrast stuff.
12:57:54 <morphir> jsled, google/video -> they have all rights reserved
12:57:59 <morphir> hmm
12:58:22 <morphir> but I'am just thinking loud here...
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12:59:47 <morphir> jsled, hmm.. you can put the video up on sf.net
13:00:00 <morphir> videos even
13:00:59 <jsled> that's another option.
13:02:15 <jsled> morphir: well, Google gets a licence to do whatever they want, but that's not quite the same.
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13:03:03 <morphir> jsled, I'am no expert in licensing.
13:05:52 <jsled> FWIW, the key clause is [[[
13:05:52 <jsled> 6. Proprietary Rights. Nothing contained in this Agreement
13:05:52 <jsled> conveys any ownership right to Us in any of the Authorized
13:05:52 <jsled> Content, or other materials provided by You.
13:05:53 <jsled> ]]]
13:06:24 <morphir> ah..ok
13:06:26 <jsled> but [[[
13:06:48 <jsled> 3. Use of Content. [...] and granting Google a royalty-free, non-exclusive right and
13:06:48 <jsled> license to, host, cache, route, transmit, store, copy, modify,
13:06:48 <jsled> distribute, perform, display, reformat, excerpt, facilitate the
13:06:48 <jsled> sale or rental of copies of, analyze, and create algorithms [...]
13:06:49 <jsled> ]]
13:06:50 <jsled> ]
13:22:25 <jsled> chris: sorry, missed your line ... I'm not sure about the <0 ones ... it's more the 0 < app-score < top-score ones in the middle... where if we got ...
13:22:59 <jsled> ... certain applicants to modify their app slightly, it'd be more interesting, but it already has a chance.
13:23:25 <jsled> Also, we should start indicating willingness to mentor pretty soon, here.
13:24:11 <jsled> They're going to announce selected Applicants on Apr 11, so I guess there's still some time.
13:27:40 <aj> i get the impression it's probably best if you can assign mentors before the 4th, even if you decide to change stuff around later, fwiw
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14:03:26 <imperito> accounting question, if I may... if I buy something, and someone goes in on it with me, but doesn't pay me back until later, how would I record that transaction?
14:08:14 <imperito> If I record just my share, then my balance is off until they pay me back, and the transactions don't match up with the statement
14:08:57 <imperito> but if I record the whole thing, then the relevant Expense account is bigger than it should be at the end, and where does the money they give me come from?
14:24:47 <chris> imperito: you could record the whole expense, then when your friend pays you back, count it as a Rebate in the expense acount.
14:27:14 <chris> that's what I would do if this is an infrequent occurrance. If it's going to happen a lot, then you might want to pay your friend's portion of the expense from a Assets:Loans:Friend account, so it's easier to keep track of how much they owe you.
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18:06:19 <warlord> * waves from Hamburg *
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19:39:52 <remiss> btw.. despite an update arch stil haven't fixed gnucash
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