2007-03-16 GnuCash IRC logs

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04:33:56 <andre> hallo zusammen, ich habe eine Frage zu GnuCash/HBCI (aqbanking) und iTan - kennt sich da jemand aus? Es klappt prinzipiell, aber das Servlet meiner Bank legt oft auf, ohne Daten zu liefern... Wie gehe ich am geschicktesten an die Fehlersuche?
04:36:12 <andre> (gnucash 2.0.5, erstellt aus r15617 auf Mac OS X)
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04:37:54 <andre> sorry, this room will surely talk english right? I'll repeat what I just wrote:
04:39:34 <andre> hello, I have a question regarding gnucash and HBCI via aqbanking: My banks servlet does frequently hang up without delivering data. it works in principle, but mostly not... How do I proceed to find the error?
04:40:13 <andre> I am new to gnucash, so be prepared to hear stupid questions...
04:40:18 <andre> ;)
04:41:12 <andre> I am here, because it was todays Tipp of the Day to come here by the way ;)
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08:21:10 <jsled> andre: you... dangit.
08:26:40 <andi5> jsled: maybe we could add a comment for the translators of this tip, about time zones and the necessity to sleep some of us may suffer from
08:26:55 <jsled> heh.
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10:10:41 <javaJake> Hello everyone
10:11:14 <javaJake> Is there any way to download my financial data onto my Palm?
10:11:24 <javaJake> I don't have to sync, just be able to look at it on the go.
10:12:16 <javaJake> I know FreeCoins (PalmCoins?) was working on this, but the last I heard was in 2005. Wondering if there are any alternatives or work-arounds?
10:13:11 <jsled> I don't know that any progress on FreeCoins was made.
10:13:33 <jsled> As for a workaround, I'd probably try to translate the gnucash data into csv or xls or something.
10:13:48 <javaJake> Right... know of anything for Palm that'll read the data?
10:13:51 <jsled> Then view it via some spreadsheet-like app.
10:13:59 <javaJake> That's the real stinker - finding something that'll actually read it
10:14:06 <jsled> That will read gnucash data? No, I don't know of any.
10:14:13 <javaJake> Well, the exported at least
10:14:54 <jsled> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_can_I_export_data.3F
10:15:23 <javaJake> OK
10:15:24 <javaJake> Thanks
10:15:30 <javaJake> Well, worth a shot anyway
10:15:31 <javaJake> TTYL
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11:51:43 <nathan> how well does gnucash handle taxable v. non-taxable accounts in the US?
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12:06:30 <warlord> nathan: in what respect?
12:09:14 <nathan> warlord: I'm in a situation where I need to start keeping very detailed records of my business/personal accounts, I've got some tricky retirement maneuvers, where I need to keep track of account totals plus how much of the principal was non-deductable
12:09:37 <nathan> Quicken Small business kind of blows
12:10:08 <nathan> I'm almost tempted to just start doing all this in excel
12:10:24 <nathan> since I'll be able to actually see the numbers and manipulate them
12:22:03 <warlord> Hmm.. Keeping track of account totals plus how much of the principal was non-deductable... *ponders* You could use subaccounts for that.
12:22:28 <warlord> Assets:Foo:{Deductable,Non-Deductable}
12:22:53 <warlord> then the CoA and reports would show the total in Foo, but the individual amounts in the subaccounts.
12:25:40 <nathan> that sounds pretty interesting
12:25:46 <nathan> thats probably exactly how I want to do it
12:26:13 <nathan> warlord: if I've got several salaried jobs, do I create new accounts under Income:Salary ?
12:31:52 <warlord> Yes, one account per job
12:32:03 <nathan> Income:Salary:ABC
12:32:09 <nathan> what about the taxes?
12:32:09 <warlord> * nods *
12:32:17 <warlord> That's up to you..
12:32:18 <nathan> Expenses:Taxes:Federal ....
12:32:42 <nathan> for example, knowing the total to the Fed is probably useful
12:32:52 <nathan> so maybe Expenses:Taxes:Federal:ABC
12:33:08 <warlord> It might be useful, yes.
12:33:18 <nathan> can I do whole year reports
12:33:37 <nathan> as in, just report the year Jan 1, 2007 - Dec 31, 2007
12:36:48 <warlord> Of course.
12:36:53 <warlord> Set the report options.
12:37:10 <nathan> alright, I'll see how far I can get with this
12:37:21 <nathan> I've probably got 10's of thousands of transactions to enter :)
12:37:33 <warlord> :(
12:37:44 <nathan> I mean, I could not make money
12:38:13 <warlord> heh
12:40:22 <nathan> yah, GnuCash will work
12:40:26 <nathan> its not great, but it will get the job done I think
12:41:32 <nathan> for example, I've got different business accounts
12:42:55 <nathan> so do I make different files for each of the businesses, do I try to do Expenses:<category>:Business
12:43:49 <nathan> I'd like to somehow have them all in the same tree
12:45:51 <warlord> Different businesses should be in different files.
12:46:12 <nathan> what about rental property?
12:46:34 <warlord> Sorry, different business entities should be in different files.
12:46:48 <nathan> hmm
12:46:49 <warlord> Rental property probably all falls under a single business entity.
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12:47:17 <nathan> warlord: right now I'm not incorporated in anyway, so business expenses are paid from my checking account and I've gotta bookkeep all this crap
12:47:21 <warlord> e.g. if you had different "businesses", e.g. a consulting firm, a construction firm, a real-estate firm, etc.. Different files for each
12:47:55 <nathan> hmm
12:47:56 <warlord> Well, the question is: is it a separate taxable entity?
12:48:04 <nathan> right now the answer is no
12:48:07 <nathan> everything flows to me
12:48:41 <nathan> but the IRS has different income classes, so for example RE expenses can only be writen down against RE income
12:48:44 <warlord> the latter statement isn't concise enough. I've got a taxable entity where everything flows to me.
12:48:49 <warlord> It's called an S-corp
12:49:00 <nathan> warlord: LLCs are the same wy
12:49:06 <warlord> But it's STILL its own taxable entity (even though it doesn't pay taxes)
12:49:08 <nathan> right now I'm just doing business as
12:49:12 <warlord> true.
12:49:26 <warlord> For a DBA, you probably just want a second set of accounts in your personal data file.
12:49:44 <nathan> yah, I think I'll try that
12:49:46 <warlord> for an LLC, S-Corp, or C-Corp you probably want a separate datafile.
12:50:01 <nathan> yah, I'll use that as the dividing line
12:50:06 <nathan> I'm planning on forming an LLC soon
12:50:18 <nathan> i've got a new business venture that I want to keep at an arms length
12:51:16 <warlord> I'd really talk to an Accountant about it, to be sure.
12:51:31 <nathan> yah, I need to
12:51:36 <nathan> life is starting to get complicated
12:51:48 <nathan> I should just go marry an accountant
12:56:43 <warlord> Heh
12:59:16 <nathan> warlord: I've decided to try and separate these businesses as much as possible
12:59:29 <nathan> and figure out how to deal with it all later
13:01:37 <warlord> ok
13:01:57 <andi5> nathan: try and marry an accountant?
13:02:36 <nathan> andi5: its a joke
13:02:52 <andi5> oh... what is a joke? .... ;-)
13:03:01 <nathan> you must be an accountant
13:03:11 <andi5> almost ;-)
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13:09:58 <nathan> yah, this is nuts
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13:28:01 <nathan> I give up, there must be a simpler way to do all this
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15:02:19 <andi5> hm, i just moved a bit in configure.in, see http://pastebin.ca/raw/397737 .... now i just need to add code to gtkprint the reports (i hope that is not too hard) ... do you think this change is reasonable and/or should it go in as is or in company with the pending changes?
15:06:57 <warlord> andi5: did you move the test outside of the "gnc_build_gui" for a reason?
15:07:24 <andi5> hm... there have been two such "gnc_build_gui" parts
15:08:15 <andi5> and i needed the goffice test before testing gtkhtml
15:08:34 <jsled> I don't think it needs to be paired with the other change, necessarily.
15:09:08 <warlord> I dont think the changes need to the paired, but the tests should remain inside a test for gnc_build_gui
15:09:34 <andi5> yes, all of them are, just not REGEX_LIBS (but that would be wrong there, anyway)
15:13:44 <andi5> i just hope i do not conflict with hampton :) (going to cleanup print-session.[ch] a bit and then do what i mentioned above)
15:14:26 <andi5> notice: i want to get this done, because printing on windows sucks otherwise :)
15:14:48 <hampton> check printing now only uses two functions from that file
15:14:55 <hampton> and then only when compiled with gnome-print
15:15:08 <andi5> do you have a pending patch for these files?
15:15:26 <jsled> hampton: you made it home, I hope?
15:15:47 <hampton> I bailed and came home yesterday.
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15:16:01 <jsled> good idea, it seems.
15:16:07 <hampton> the storm doesn't seem like that big a deal here
15:16:31 <warlord> hampton: But I heard that all three NYC airports are having.. iissues.
15:16:53 <hampton> I suppose I should listen to the radio. :-)
15:17:06 <warlord> :)
15:17:09 <andi5> crashes airplanes and stuff like that?
15:17:18 <andi5> crashing, i mean
15:17:22 <hampton> my friends made it in from London ok. I don't think they were delayed that much.
15:18:26 <jsled> andi5: no crashes. Cancellations, mostly.
15:18:38 <andi5> :( ... how boring
15:18:41 <jsled> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=ahBLcMVghQU0&refer=us
15:18:43 <jsled> Indeed. :)
15:18:47 <jschavey> do I use the debian version of gnucash if I'm running ubuntu?
15:19:16 <jsled> jschavey: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Ubuntu
15:19:21 <warlord> jschavey: no, you use the ubuntu version
15:19:23 <andi5> typically not, even if the source has not changed, the binary packages should differ
15:19:56 <warlord> Hey, we've got three Apps so far.. (Two of them are even reasonable)
15:20:00 <jsled> Looks like it's out of date, though. <http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?searchon=names&version=all&exact=1&keywords=gnucash>
15:20:03 <jsled> Wow.
15:20:34 <andi5> did i miss some site to see those apps?
15:20:57 <jschavey> ok, thanks
15:21:04 <andi5> jsled: that problem is inherited from debian... there just is no fellow gnucash ubuntu packager :)
15:21:10 <jsled> andi5: they're in the SoC Mentor dashboard.
15:21:25 <jsled> warlord: thanks for the approval.
15:22:51 <warlord> andi5: yes
15:23:13 <andi5> what are those two projects about?
15:23:27 <andi5> or is not it allowed to say it?
15:23:32 <jsled> click-yop? click-o?
15:23:58 <jsled> AIUI, we rate the apps, then google decides the cuts.
15:23:59 <warlord> andi5: Huh?
15:24:28 <jsled> which does't put us in the position of being the good or bad guys, which is nice.
15:24:35 <andi5> indeed
15:25:00 <warlord> Well, the two, so far, are QIF rewrite and CSV import
15:25:21 <andi5> ah, i see
15:25:56 <warlord> andi5: do you want to sign up as a mentor?
15:25:57 <warlord> ;)
15:26:23 <andi5> my mentoring would be like.... ask someone else on irc!
15:26:36 <jsled> heh
15:26:51 <warlord> hehe
15:26:52 <jsled> Geez, what do you think we're going to do? Anything different?
15:26:54 <jsled> :)
15:27:07 <andi5> even if i would know the source code a lot better, mentoring is about social skills..... (wow, i really know these words)
15:28:12 <andi5> jsled: no, did i say so? ;-)
15:29:44 * andi5 continues tomorrow.... see you
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15:45:18 <jschavey> where should I be saving these packadges?
15:46:13 <jsled> jschavey: I strongly recommend using a package manager, like Synaptic.
15:46:49 <jschavey> I tried the Adept Packadge manager that comes with KDE, but I couldn't find g-wrap, the first packadge needed
15:47:10 <jschavey> did I do something wrong, or do I need to switch over to gnome first?
15:47:17 <jsled> It should deal with getting all the dependent packages...
15:47:33 <jschavey> oh, so all I need to get is the gnucash package?
15:47:49 <jsled> I don't know ... I don't use Ubuntu or KDE. You might want to use their support forums.
15:48:18 <jsled> It depends on the package manager; for one of decent quality, you should be able to say "install gnucash", and it'll do everything from there.
15:48:33 <jschavey> ok, how do I go about getting one of decent quality?
15:48:48 <jsled> including determining, downloading and installing all dependent packages/versions in the correct order, &c.
15:50:39 <warlord> jschavey: apt-get install gnucash doesn't work?
15:51:33 <jschavey> well, when I installed kubuntu it never asked me for the root password so when I su or sudo it doesn't want to accept the password, so I seem not to have permission to do that
15:51:53 <jsled> ubuntu does't have a root password; enter your user account password.
15:52:01 <jschavey> that didn't work either
15:52:07 <jschavey> said authorization failed
15:52:34 <jsled> uh. Well, that's the limit of my ubuntu knowledge!
15:52:35 <jschavey> I'm sorry, it says authentication failed
15:52:36 <jsled> :)
15:52:39 <jschavey> heh
15:52:57 <jschavey> well, thanks anyways :)
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16:13:00 <jsled> Hmm. The license on http://code.google.com/soc/gnucash/about.html isn't right. I think someone else mentioned similar on soc-discuss....
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16:14:10 <warlord> No, that's not right.
16:14:37 <jsled> http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-discuss/browse_thread/thread/51f5064deff7809f/8dd67bc1279a2586?lnk=gst&q=license&rnum=1#8dd67bc1279a2586
16:14:41 <warlord> Check now
16:15:02 <jsled> still says Apache, here.
16:15:09 <guitsaru> It says GPL on mine
16:15:28 <warlord> jsled: force-reload the page.
16:15:40 <jsled> warlord: yup, I did. No change.
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16:17:27 <jsled> Ok, updated now.
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16:46:53 <jsled> [[[ A good rule of thumb when finding and assigning mentors is to have two mentors per student. It is also a good idea to have a spare mentor or two who can pay attention to many students and keep track of the big picture.
16:46:56 <jsled> ]] - http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code/wiki/AdviceforMentors
16:47:27 <warlord> Yeah, I saw that
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16:48:06 <warlord> On the other hand I suspect each student will have a primary mentor but we'll just ask them to hang out in here and ask questions in here... So any of us would be a secondary mentor.
16:48:14 <warlord> @op benoitg
16:48:14 *** gncbot sets mode: +o benoitg
16:48:22 <benoitg> Thanks
16:49:11 <warlord> hey, you're actually HERE!
16:49:20 <jsled> yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. It seems like his experience is with a larger project (ASF) where things might be a bit more ... fluid.
16:49:26 <warlord> benoitg: want to mentor a GSoC student? ;)
16:49:38 <warlord> could be
16:50:03 <benoitg> warlord: LOL
16:50:13 <benoitg> No time for that!
16:50:29 <jsled> Or, I could see that true with e.g., GNOME. Or where the student is working on a novel project.
16:50:38 <jsled> biab.
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16:56:29 <warlord> chris: FYI, nice message to Daniel about gobject-dev
16:58:05 <chris> warlord: thanks
17:05:50 <warlord> np
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17:34:41 <esodan> Hi all, I'll get out for a week, and becouse I can't continue becouse a problem in linking to libgnomeprint.la, (I hope to resolve it as soon as possible), I need some one try if gobject-engine-dev compiles or not....
17:35:06 <jsled> It does not.
17:35:43 <esodan> Aggrrr! Ok, I'll try to fix it as soon as posible...
17:36:04 <chris> esodan: Did you get my mail?
17:36:31 <esodan> chris: No, have you sended to gmail or where?
17:37:15 <chris> I sent it to your gnucash.org alias.
17:37:39 <esodan> I have it... I'll read it...
17:43:45 <jsled> esodan: there are errors in src/engine/swig-engine.c ... and it seems, roughly, all the business objects
17:44:59 <esodan> I'm looking into the email from andi5, and at this point I need to think if I can continue or not with the work....
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17:47:56 <amicrawler> need some help please
17:48:03 <amicrawler> runnig 2.0.1
17:48:16 <amicrawler> can i print off my accounts
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17:49:58 <amicrawler> any body home to day or night ?
17:51:39 <jsled> "print off [your] accounts"? What do you mean?
17:52:02 <jsled> Do you want to print the accounts, or the transactions in them, or ...?
17:52:13 <jsled> In any case, the answer is to print the relevant report.
17:52:42 <amicrawler> ok
17:52:48 <esodan> I have two great steps done: 1) I have made all Qof and Gnc objects depend on GObject and 2) Changed the String based type system in Qof to GType
17:53:41 <amicrawler> well in the accounts i just want to print off the were it shows the accounts summary
17:54:02 <amicrawler> it show what is there and spent
17:54:18 <amicrawler> under reports
17:54:26 <amicrawler> account sum
17:54:32 <amicrawler> can i print that?
17:54:37 <esodan> The step 1), could be done in a way to not alter any thing in the Qof it self, but a great change has been done becouse the objective was to use just GObject and not the Qof object system...
17:55:36 <jsled> amicrawler: {File > Print Report...}?
17:55:43 <warlord> esodan: what was NOT the initial objective
17:55:55 <warlord> er, THAT was not...
17:56:35 <amicrawler> print is not a printable object
17:56:46 <amicrawler> can not click it
17:58:06 <jsled> amicrawler: ... huh? What can't you click?
17:58:09 <esodan> The step 2) has made other big change becouse I have changed the string based system to use GType based in integers and dinamicaly assingned ID's, but this has created a big collateral alterations in the way Qof use its objects
17:58:11 <warlord> amicrawler: you can only print a report.
17:58:49 <amicrawler> ok
17:58:54 <amicrawler> so a report
17:58:59 <esodan> Well, then I'll reset the work...
17:59:21 <esodan> I'll follow the following steps:
17:59:59 <esodan> 1) Make QofEntity a GObject
18:01:29 <esodan> For step 1), I don't change in any way the method used to access its variables, then I will not use the private structure in this process
18:03:33 <esodan> Step 2): I will make Qofinstance a GObject with QofIntance as base class
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18:04:25 <esodan> Sorry QofEntity will be the base class for Qofinstance...
18:04:33 <esodan> Step 3): will make all GC's objects a GObject with QofInstance as base class
18:05:32 <esodan> This doesn't alter in any way the actual functionaly in GC
18:05:35 <chris> esodan: sounds good. just make sure you take it one step at a time.
18:05:46 <jsled> It doesn't seem unreasonable to combine QofInstance and QofEntity.
18:05:49 <warlord> commit early, commit often
18:06:05 <esodan> I'll do, and I will commit with a good documentation...
18:06:22 <jsled> What would you document, exactly?
18:06:32 <warlord> Now here's a question, do we want to re-branch after we do the re-indent?
18:07:16 <esodan> In each step, I'll describe the change and its collateral alterations found and needed fixes...
18:07:19 <chris> After step 1, (or step 2 if you combine QofEntity into QofInstance), it should be in a completely working state.
18:07:32 <jsled> warlord: either re-branch, or — as I mentioned on -devel — sync all the branches up with trunk@HEAD and indent them as well.
18:08:10 <warlord> jsled: yeah... I know. I just wasnt sure when the indent was going to happen
18:08:25 <chris> esodan: We can merge step 1 (or step 1+2) into trunk by itself.
18:08:46 <esodan> chris: Great!
18:09:00 <chris> Can't we kinda re-indent as-we-go?
18:09:11 <warlord> esodan: right, but that can only happen IFF step1 (or steps1+2) result in working code.
18:09:52 <esodan> warlord: Of course, I know that now... :)
18:10:58 <esodan> Does any know How Can I update to the lastest trunk and use the same branch to update it with this steps (re-starting at the begining)?
18:12:00 <jsled> Might be cleaner to just svn rm the branch and re-branch off of head.
18:12:11 <esodan> I think I have a good idea I need to do for each step, I what to do in the next steps...
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18:13:16 <esodan> I think that would be good, I have a copy of my code in my machine, the code I'll need to copy and paste when each step comes...
18:13:46 <warlord> No need to rm. We can just create a new branch.. gobject-engine-dev2
18:14:01 <jsled> Either way.
18:14:04 <chris> yeah, leave the branch for reference.
18:14:15 <jsled> Well, it's still there @rev...
18:14:16 <warlord> Want me to rebranch right now?
18:14:19 <esodan> Perfect...
18:15:20 <warlord> ok. I'll branch in a second.
18:15:44 <esodan> waiting... 8-)
18:16:32 <warlord> Okay, /branches/gobject-engine-dev1
18:16:44 <warlord> (and step2 can be gobject-engine-dev2)
18:16:55 <jsled> esodan: I don't know if you saw them last night, but I had a bunch of question while reviewing the commit diff last night: http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2007-03-15.html#T20:08:08
18:17:22 <esodan> Perfect I'll get it...
18:17:36 <jsled> esodan: even if you're restarting, some of the points/concerns are still valid.
18:18:19 <esodan> Ok I'll review it, I haven't checked before...
18:18:50 <jsled> Yeah, I started when you were in channel, but then (as you'll see) you parted just before I finished.
18:19:42 <jsled> esodan: FWIW, the valid replacement for PERR is g_critical(...) ... and even better if you can define G_LOG_DOMAIN more specifically.
18:20:08 <jsled> But, again, I'd not expect you to change any of that incidentally with the cahnges you're going to make.
18:20:39 <warlord> jsled: with the re-branch that shouldn't be an issue
18:20:40 <esodan> For the first coments, I have some errors in names, but that will be the steps to come... I don't want to delete the names just to ajust to the new Qofinstance name space...
18:21:22 <jsled> warlord: yeah ... at this point, it's more fyi.
18:21:32 <jsled> Anyways, I've gotta start making dinner. Biab.
18:21:37 <warlord> yeah, right now I would say: no renaming.
18:21:44 <esodan> For PERR and G_LOG_DOMAIN, I'll get it in acount in the future for the step 3, when I work with the main GC objects...
18:21:54 <warlord> (or if you do HAVE to rename, leave a #define so the old name remains valid)
18:22:36 <esodan> warlord: I'll do, you'll se in the comments with each commit...
18:23:13 <warlord> esodan: excellent
18:24:24 <esodan> The FIRST_SIGNAL is needed becouse when you init the static guint qof_instance_signals[LAST_SIGNAL] = { 0 }; the LAST_SIGNAL enum is 0, then this is an array with no elements...
18:24:53 <jsled> but then, why call it?
18:25:48 <esodan> Most of the code I'll add at first steps will be the base for the next steps when we will use more functionality from GObject enstead the actual functionality, but that will be for the future steps not right now...
18:26:34 <warlord> then why add it now if it's not being used?
18:27:00 <jsled> Hmm. Aren't we supposed to be starting a release series ?
18:27:12 <jsled> Yeah. <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Release_Schedule> suggests 2.1.0 for March 18th.
18:27:19 <jsled> It seems with cstim busy
18:27:42 <jsled> we need a release champion.
18:28:04 <esodan> If you see at Account, you'll find some declarations that isn't used but will help any to understand what is present and that we will use in the future...
18:28:17 <chris> You know... I don't have anything against devel releases, but I'm not feeling a lot of release pressure.
18:28:28 <esodan> this doesn't alter any functionality, and is just copy paste...
18:28:30 <jsled> (biab for real this time)
18:29:24 <esodan> Ok guys I have to leave... see you at first step finished... :)
18:29:36 <warlord> Thanks esodan
18:29:44 <warlord> many happy (small!) commits.
18:29:50 <chris> The only thing that really pressures for a release, IMO, is the win32 work, and it looks like that might be releasing devel releases already.
18:29:54 <chris> esodan: good luck.
18:29:57 <warlord> chris: I dont think we're ready until we get win32 gzip working
18:30:17 <chris> warlord: sure, so even there, it's not really urgent.
18:30:31 <warlord> right.
18:30:50 <chris> the other factor is that I see so many critical bugs in 2.0.x :(
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18:37:55 <warlord> chris: haven't those bugs been fixed in trunk, yet?
18:38:37 <chris> warlord: I think almost always, no.
18:39:34 <warlord> chris: Huh. I wonder if we should've asked for a BugSquad SoC student?
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21:08:09 <esodan> Witch is the most deseable feature in GObject we want? Is it Signals at a top level? for example, emit when an Account or Transaction is changed?
21:08:53 <jsled> You've said "deseable" before ... I think you really want "desireable".
21:08:58 <jsled> And: no.
21:09:16 <esodan> Witch one?
21:09:21 <jsled> ("which")
21:09:27 <esodan> sorry...
21:09:42 <esodan> yes which one?
21:09:43 <jsled> No no. I try to help. I don't want to offend.
21:10:14 <esodan> (Yes I know ;), thanks)
21:10:15 <jsled> I think the first thing is gtype usage.
21:10:33 <esodan> Whay
21:10:36 <esodan> Why?
21:10:55 <jsled> Well, because you can't do anything else until that's true.
21:11:00 <jsled> s/true/present/
21:11:25 <jsled> But that's a bit tautological....
21:11:44 <esodan> GType on the GC's objects or in the Qof objects?
21:11:51 <jsled> I think — abstractly — the "best" gobject feature is ref-counting.
21:12:22 <esodan> Ref-counting on the GC's objects or over Qof objects?
21:12:37 <jsled> Signals are really awesome, but Qof events are pretty straightforward to implment, and get you 80%.
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21:13:01 <jsled> I don't really see a difference between Qof and Gnc objects.
21:13:46 <jsled> I mean, most [*] Qof types are either gobject or glib types.
21:13:48 <esodan> Well if you see the GUI and other may use an Account, Transaction, or other GC's objects, but not directly Qof objects...
21:13:50 <jsled> Or Gnc types.
21:14:28 <jsled> [*]: there's only a couple that are really gnucash-generic "qof" types that come to mind. Query. Uh... that's it. :)
21:14:35 <jsled> But, that's the goal state, right:
21:14:38 <chris> book
21:14:56 <jsled> True, except a "book", literally, is an accounting term.
21:15:02 <jsled> Otherwise, it's jut a "dictionary".
21:15:11 <chris> QofBackend
21:15:19 <jsled> Yeah, good point.
21:15:42 <chris> esodan: The distinction between qof and gnc is not really important.
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21:16:44 <chris> and I think the most important GObject feature is the type system.
21:16:45 <jsled> Properties are a distant third. They're so much more useful in a real OO language.
21:17:00 <jsled> I have a hard time justifying using GObject's properties system.
21:17:01 <jsled> Except...
21:17:28 <esodan> I have commited a test to get an Account as a GObject, and allow exploid most of the GObject features like signals or others...
21:17:42 <jsled> ... qof (or, maybe, "qof-ng") will probably want to use them more regularly for the reflective properties that QofQuery and QofBackend want to make special use of.
21:18:20 <esodan> (of course this is compiling.... )
21:18:54 <esodan> I can add some signals when an Account is changed...
21:19:28 <warlord> let's worry about adding signals later..
21:19:33 <esodan> and attach a callback to for example update the status bar, or show a message box (this is as a test porpouse)
21:19:39 <warlord> let's get the basic gobject migration done and working..
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21:19:47 <jsled> right. We know all that's possible.
21:19:47 <warlord> and then get the gobject types.. and memory management..
21:19:54 <warlord> and THEN we can add signals.
21:19:58 <jsled> I don't understand why you're suggesting it.
21:20:36 <esodan> I'm thinking on "what hapen if"...
21:21:44 <esodan> If the GC's objects used in most GUI methods use GObject and this handle correctly the memory management (ref-counting), properties and signals...
21:22:17 <esodan> I can get a system where I can megrate the base class objects from Qof quickly....
21:23:23 <warlord> Also, your patch clearly doesn't work, because lots of places assume you can cast to a QOF_INSTANCE(), which you can't in your change.
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21:23:34 <esodan> If, for example, an Account objects works fine, is selft ref-count and use a GType, may be this is an step...
21:23:41 <chris> esodan: What you're talking about is like Round 5. And we're never going to get there if you finish Round 1.
21:23:59 <warlord> chris: I think you mean "if you DONT finish Round 1"
21:24:01 <chris> s/if you/if you don't/
21:24:09 <chris> yeah
21:24:14 <jsled> Except ... you can't get the "refcounting" layer to "work fine" unless the other objects also do refcounting.
21:24:24 <jsled> You can't deal with each type as a silo...
21:24:27 <jsled> ...of all the gobject features.
21:24:39 <jsled> You need to deal with all the types for *each* feature.
21:24:39 <warlord> right. r15729 should really get reverted, and you should limit your changes to lib/libqof/
21:25:15 <esodan> Let me think about, and summit changes for in the next days...
21:25:36 <warlord> esodan: don't think too hard about it. I think you're already walking down the wrong path again
21:25:54 <warlord> As we keep saying, don't work object by object...
21:25:59 <warlord> .. work feature by feature.
21:26:01 <esodan> (and I had thinking about QOF_INSTANCE and how to COULD be, this is a test)
21:26:21 <warlord> Your tests should result in a working application.
21:26:52 <warlord> If you wanted people to view the patch as a test, you could email it to gnucash-devel, or post it to pastebin and email the link.. But committing a "test" just dirties SVN
21:27:03 <esodan> Ok, I have to leave, if you see this is just to think and get an idea... I have the path...
21:27:07 <chris> esodan: You really can't start with Account. Start with QofEntity/QofInstance.
21:27:40 <esodan> Ok... mmmm, I have to leave, see you...
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21:27:51 <warlord> * SIGHS *
21:29:50 <warlord> Why do I have the feeling that at the current rate the gobject migration just isn't ever going to happen?
21:31:16 * jsled shakes magic 8 ball. "All signs point to no."
21:32:36 <warlord> Hahahahahahaahahahahahahahahah
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21:49:50 <jsled> [ot] Wow. http://youtube.com/watch?v=v1op8vwF5UA
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