2007-02-23 GnuCash IRC logs
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03:11:20 <tedc> DISASTER: replaced SuSE 10.1 with OpenSuSE10.2. Fonts are unreadable, SAX2 (configure display) doesn't work. Novell is suceeding in destroying yet another acquisition. Groan.
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06:33:54 <MrN> hi
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12:19:40 <fazee> where i can find ERD of GNU Cash
12:20:02 <MrN> ERD==?
12:20:05 <warlord> ERD?
12:20:16 <warlord> Executive Recruiting Department?
12:20:29 <jsled> heh.
12:21:00 <jsled> Entity/relationship diagram, probably. There is no such thing.
12:21:51 <fazee> Entity Relationship Diagram
12:21:58 <warlord> There is no such thing.
12:22:13 <MrN> why would a gzipped xml file have an E/R diagram?
12:22:16 <warlord> If you want to help setup doxygen to show it patches are welcome?
12:22:28 <warlord> MrN: I think he means the source code.
12:22:53 <fazee> yes i mean database design of GNU Cash
12:23:10 <andi5> hehe
12:23:19 <warlord> "Database Design"?
12:23:22 <warlord> GNuCash has no database.
12:23:38 <warlord> It has an XML datafile format, but that's not a database.
12:23:57 <warlord> I guess it DOES have a bitrotted Postgres backend, but ... that's more of a proof of concept than anything else.
12:24:06 <fazee> ok where i can get XML data file
12:24:15 <MrN> fazee: gunzip
12:24:17 <warlord> There's the GDA work going on. I dont know if Phil has written up an ERD.
12:24:34 <warlord> fazee: GnuCash saves it wherever you tell it to save it.. And it usually compresses it.
12:24:58 <warlord> If you're looking for a SCHEMA or DTD of the XML file, you're out of luck -- there is none.. Or at least there's no normative document.
12:25:11 <warlord> fazee: what EXACTLY are you trying to do?
12:26:16 <fazee> well i studing accounting information system i want to design complete accounting solution so i want a database design for accounting inforation system
12:26:59 <andi5> i guess src/engine might be interesting
12:27:02 <warlord> Why are you designing a new solution from scratch instead of starting with an existing system and modifying it to your needs?
12:27:03 <jsled> You might then want to take a look at SQL Ledger, which probably has such a beast. Or GNUe.
12:27:28 <jsled> yeah, there might be some historical stuff in src/doc/, too.
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12:29:13 <fazee> actualy i want to develope and market it for comercial licensing so i just want to get idea
12:30:04 <warlord> You do realize you're facing dozens of man-years of effort, right?
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12:31:19 <fazee> then any open source solution u think i can modify and can market it
12:31:36 <warlord> I dont know.
12:31:43 <warlord> People have tried (and failed)
12:31:44 <fazee> basicly here in pakistan people mostly us windows
12:31:59 <warlord> Become an Intuit reseller?
12:33:05 <andi5> fazee: just keep in mind the differences between the GPL and other licenses, like those of BSD style
12:33:15 <warlord> GnuCash, for example, is GPLed. You're welcome to do with it as you wish, but if you do sell it you'd have to make your changes available.
12:33:16 <jsled> Sure, you can do that. Bear in mind that if you modify an open-source solution and market it, then you also have to give your modifications to the people you sell it to.
12:33:20 <jsled> heh
12:34:48 <warlord> Frankly I wouldn't base a new product around the existing GnuCash data file format..
12:39:15 <andi5> FYI: i am going to test http://pastebin.ca/raw/369212 on windows, as it seems to basically work on ubuntu
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12:42:18 <warlord> What's the scheme interface to something that looks like (*)(GList*, gboolean)?
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12:43:44 <fazee> sorry i was dc
12:43:52 <warlord> Oh, i see... Intresting.
12:44:04 <andi5> oh, no answer needed? ;-)
12:44:39 <fazee> well so there is no solution ?
12:45:41 <andi5> arrgh.. i hate windows
12:45:56 <warlord> is it not working on windows?
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12:46:00 <warlord> fazee: solution to what?
12:46:12 <andi5> well, `stdin' does mean something special again
12:46:18 <warlord> Oh?
12:46:24 * andi5 starts the sedding machine
12:46:39 <MrN> <fazee> basicly here in pakistan people mostly us windows
12:46:43 <MrN> i hate that fact
12:46:53 <MrN> hardly anyone can afford it
12:47:41 <fazee> well there is no license for windows here
12:47:57 <fazee> no body us licensed copy
12:48:00 <MrN> yeah, you should use linux :)
12:48:03 <fazee> ** use
12:48:20 <MrN> no pakistani could pay 500 us-dollars for windows, right?
12:48:33 <MrN> well almost none
12:48:34 <fazee> yes u r right personaly like linux
12:49:06 <fazee> rigth even we dont know where to buy it i havent seen any office or retail of windorws ever
12:49:26 <fazee> ok tell me gnu cash work ok linux Ubuntu
12:49:45 <MrN> gnucash sure does work on linux
12:50:09 <fazee> on UBUNTU aslo?
12:51:16 <MrN> yes.
12:51:17 <jsled> yup. Ubuntu has packages of gnucash.
12:51:27 <MrN> you might want to install edgy eft first
12:52:16 <fazee> ok then i will now install GNU cash on ubuntu
12:52:41 <andi5> fazee: could you please use the term "GnuCash" or "gnucash"?... thanks :)
12:53:10 <MrN> yeah right, THAT's important after all :)
12:54:20 <warlord> hehe
12:54:38 <andi5> <gnc.win32> debug: compiling goes on
12:54:44 <jsled> heh.
12:54:47 <warlord> heh!
12:57:18 <tedc> crauch doesn't believe the install problems on SuSE. I sent him the failed dependency list. Just installed SuSE10.2 (disappointing) and his 10.2 doesn't install their either. The gnucash 2.0.2 that comes with has no dependency problems. Will recompile 2.05 .
12:57:58 <warlord> tedc: full install error logs are very useful. "it doesn't work" is NOT very useful.
12:58:37 <warlord> unfortunately your first email was more the latter and not the former.
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12:59:34 <andi5> warlord: you mean stuff like http://pastebin.ca/raw/369232 ?
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13:01:00 <warlord> andi5: Hahahahaha
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14:23:24 <tedc> warlord: sent full install log to crauch
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14:29:46 <andi5> haselasdf... aqbanking is linked against openssl 0.9.7 right now, whereas the binary perl modules for Crypt::SSLeay are linked against 0.9.8 ... but how can i solve that problem without changing the environment for the spawning of perl... ggrrr
14:34:31 <andi5> besides that, finance::quote is detected, but the results are empty right now... maybe that is fixable... tomorrow
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16:42:13 <jsled> gncbot: tell andi5 Thanks! re: finding the dup for Bug#411203; I knew there was one, but I couldn't find it. :)
16:42:13 <gncbot> jsled: The operation succeeded.
16:42:27 <jsled> (so now you'll be double-thanked. :)
16:42:44 <andi5> *g*
16:42:44 <gncbot> andi5: Sent just now: <jsled> Thanks! re: finding the dup for Bug#411203; I knew there was one, but I couldn't find it. :)
16:46:08 <andi5> jsled: well, i would have found it nonetheless, but there was also a simple bug finder at the top of the bug... it would have pointed you :)
16:46:26 <jsled> Oh ...so that thing actually works
16:46:27 <jsled> ?
16:46:40 <jsled> Sounds magical. I'm just not in the habit of using it, I guess.
16:46:45 <andi5> oh, it has been working for a long time
16:46:56 <andi5> just use it
16:47:40 <andi5> but i became more cautious lately, because it can make you duplicate bugs too eagerly
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16:54:55 <w-mute> Hey, folks.
16:55:51 <w-mute> How can I keep track of expenses that only happen e.g. once a year but cover montly expenses (such as subscriptions, membership fees etc.)?
16:56:51 <jsled> The rule of thumb is to model the actual transactions. So what do you mean by "track".
16:56:52 <jsled> ?
16:58:54 <warlord> w-mute: in general for something like that you just have a yearly transaction to the proper Expense account.
16:58:56 <w-mute> Lets assume all my membership fees, subscriptions etc. are due in January. So January is one heck of an expensive month. But I also receive the papers in other months and I'm also a member of some clubs in months other than january.
16:59:44 <MrN> you could create an account named HeckBalanceThisExpensiveMonth :D
16:59:45 <jsled> It's just an accounting program; you don't need to enter in when you receive the paper. :)
17:02:19 <w-mute> jsled: right. But I don't receive the paper for free. I paid it. In advance. But I like this advance payment split evenly among the months. It's like amortized cost (?) of an algorithm in computer science.
17:02:34 <jsled> Right, except it's nothing like that.
17:02:42 <w-mute> (I know that this concept is derived from bookkeeping so I'm basically reverse-explaining what I mean right now.)
17:03:18 <w-mute> jsled: why not
17:05:03 <warlord> w-mute: your other option is to create an "Assets:Membership Fees" account, pay that yearly, and then pay out of that monthly...
17:05:09 <jsled> Because amortization is either repaying a debt, or depreciating the value of a (capital) asset. This is just you not wanting to see a big number in January...
17:05:15 <warlord> But that's not REALLY what's going on so it would be a flawed model.
17:05:20 <w-mute> BTW: I want to use GNUCash not just to keep track of stuff that just fell to the ground (like, oh, wow - I'm broke because all my subscriptions were due). I'd like to use it also for plannung.
17:05:55 <warlord> w-mute: Ahhh!! But you still need to plan for the yearly expense, not the monthly expense.. File -> New Budget
17:07:04 <w-mute> Warlord: Good point. I have to admit that the budget feature is a good idea but the implementation doesn't really cut it for me. Unless things changed dramatically since I tried it.
17:08:13 <w-mute> Currently, I use a gnumeric file for my budgeting.
17:09:04 <w-mute> Hmm. I was sort of hoping somebody here would say "Oh, this is standard - do it like this ...". But it seems like I really have to buy that bookkeepingbook.
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17:15:26 <warlord> w-mute: what you want really isn't GAAP
17:15:52 <w-mute> "Good A.. Accounting Practice"?
17:16:44 <w-mute> OK. Googled it.
17:18:11 <w-mute> Now, what is this then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAAP#Principle_of_periodicity
17:18:44 <w-mute> This reads pretty much like what I'd like to do.
17:19:04 <warlord> w-mute: that's from the other side...
17:19:19 <w-mute> The dark side?
17:19:19 <warlord> From the Payee's side.
17:19:39 <warlord> You're the payor.. For cash-based accounting you account for it when you write the check.
17:20:36 <w-mute> But why does it make sense for the payee and not for the payor?
17:21:31 <warlord> Because the payee is PROBABLY using accural-based accounting and not cash-based accounting.
17:22:20 <warlord> Go ask your accountant what you should do.
17:23:32 <w-mute> OK. Thanks :-)
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17:35:12 <warlord> But seriously, if you want to account for the periodicity then the Asset account I mentioned earlier is the way to do it.
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18:00:49 <warlord-afk> see ya
18:02:46 <jsled> later.
18:03:57 <hampton> ciao
18:04:26 <jsled> hey hampton. You mentioned higifying the report options the other day ... is that something you're going to do?
18:05:06 <hampton> warlord won't let me. he like the way they're build from scheme
18:05:28 <hampton> at least that's what he said about a year ago
18:05:32 <jsled> Ah.
18:05:44 <hampton> there's a bugzilla on the hig breakage of the report options.
18:06:35 <jsled> We should be able to be both hig-compliant and convenient...
18:07:16 <jsled> I bring it up because I'm thinking about digging into the reports, and the options are probably going to get touched in the course of that.
18:07:22 <hampton> that's what I tried to do with the prefs
18:07:34 <hampton> make it easy
18:08:44 <andi5> jsled: i know you will do, but please always keep in mind that windows is supposed to be a supported platform, even for 2.3.x ;-)
18:08:56 <hampton> win-what?
18:09:02 <andi5> doof
18:09:02 <jsled> andi5: indeed, I was just reminding myself of that this morning. ;)
18:09:33 <jsled> I'll certainly outline the changes I'm going to make for review/discussion.
18:10:05 <andi5> hampton: do you, by chance, know a list i can point people to, when you they notice they have to set their TZ environment variable on windows, to get Date::Manip running? :)
18:10:16 <hampton> There seems to be a fair amount of commonality among the various report option pages. It would be nice to have a set of common pages that could be used by most of the reports, and then have report specific pages that could be added.
18:10:35 <jsled> indeed.
18:11:00 <hampton> I don't know if there's a mailing list for Date::Manip or not.
18:11:19 <andi5> o, i am sorry, i mean a list of time zones? ... i still do not know what windows will eat and what not :)
18:11:33 <hampton> Would require an easy way to map glade widgets to guile.
18:11:53 <hampton> ISTR that Date::Manip has a hard coded list of timezones that it recognizes.
18:12:09 <andi5> ohhh? .. lemme check
18:12:25 <jsled> hampton: because the report is responsible for creating it's own optoins dialog?
18:12:39 <andi5> hampton: hey, thanks :-)
18:12:42 <jsled> s/it's/its/
18:12:50 <hampton> you found it already?
18:12:57 <andi5> yes, it is only one file
18:13:04 <hampton> k
18:14:03 <andi5> soooo.... *cross fingers that gnucash will eat the sources*
18:15:04 <hampton> jsled: I was thinking of something similar to the prefs support where the report could have glade pages that go with it. Those get stuck into the options dialog for the report. Needs to be a way to declare which widgets in the glade page are 'intersting', and a way to access their values from the scheme side. Unless you plan on rewriting report support into C. :-)
18:15:15 <jsled> I do.
18:15:30 <jsled> And the options will be declared, not evaluated.
18:15:59 <andi5> Unbound variable: strptime .... ooook, that means work
18:17:01 <jsled> The reports should say "My options are this hierarchy of values, with these labels, values and schema."
18:17:31 <jsled> Some elements of the hierarchy might be common. Certainly the allowed datatypes/schema are common and small.
18:17:59 <jsled> (int, filtered account-list, enumerated options, ...)
18:20:04 <jsled> Lol. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01051.html
18:22:00 <hampton> funny
18:23:43 <hampton> It seems to me that in order to get the options right from a hig perspective, they need to be done in a glade page. Maybe an extra key in your list of items? "... labels, values, schema and glade keys."
18:24:43 <jsled> You're saying the glade page/layout for the options must be pre-defined?
18:25:34 <jsled> The report-specific pages, even?
18:25:48 <hampton> no, it could still be dynamic like today. I think its probably a lot easier to get right with the gui designer.
18:26:08 <jsled> (I guess if a report wanted the common "account selection" page, then we can readily provide that page, pre-defined in Glade)
18:26:26 <MrN> n8
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18:26:55 <jsled> Hmm. In my plan, a report is a collection of relatively UI-indepdent data. I'd hope we can find a way to not have a glade-specific "page" in it)
18:27:39 <jsled> well, except for the UI-dependent data like an HTML template; I mean more like: not gtk-specific.
18:28:07 <jsled> But maybe I should actually look into the current options handling more before discussing it.
18:28:34 <hampton> I was thinking something along the lines of get_std_report_dialog(bool show_accont_selector, bool show_xxx), add_options_page(dialog, char *from_file, char *from_vbox)
18:29:31 <jsled> Where from_file is ...?
18:29:50 <jsled> FWIW, I don't think the report should execute that code.
18:29:55 <hampton> The name of a glade file.
18:30:48 <hampton> Similar to how the preferences dialog works today.
18:31:46 * jsled nods
18:33:52 <hampton> fyi, I may try to tackle the GnomePrint -> GtkPrint conversion this weekend. Right now, I'm off to the gym. bbiab
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18:34:02 <jsled> awesome. take care
18:34:34 <andi5> hampton|away: sounds good.... feel free to send me whatever you want tested on windows
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20:40:19 <paolob> Hi guys!
20:40:25 <jsled> hello.
20:40:42 <paolob> I reported bug http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=410898 , which is a very weird one
20:40:46 <paolob> hi jsled
20:40:54 <paolob> I added the info to that bug
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20:41:09 <paolob> really can't you reproduce it?
20:41:54 <jsled> The updated instructions are more precise; I really could not reproduce it off the original description.
20:42:11 <jsled> I doubt I'll be able to reproduce it with the updated instructions, though.
20:42:20 <paolob> jsled, could it depend on some misconfiguration of my system?
20:42:22 <jsled> I mean, it's absurd. Why would 'j' be any different than 'q' or 'b'.
20:42:25 <andi5> paolob: i have a stupid question, i am sorry.... do you accidentally use "j" as some gnome keybinding? ;-)
20:42:48 <paolob> andi5, how can I know it?
20:43:19 <andi5> well, or another question... did you update recently? can you downgrade and check again?
20:44:55 <paolob> Esta copia se compiló a partir de r14936 el 2007-01-17 , 2.0.2
20:45:06 <andi5> (oh, still at 2.0.5.... be had a bad bug there, we did not accept j's there ;-))
20:45:10 <andi5> 2.0.2, i mean
20:45:31 <paolob> this copy was compiled using r....
20:45:47 <paolob> andi5, what do you mean? I didn't understand you
20:46:35 <paolob> andi5, I think j is not a gnome keybinding, because I have that problem only in gnucash
20:46:51 <andi5> paolob: you have used gnucash for years, right? and you did not just update to 2.0.x... the question is: what did change recently?
20:47:46 <paolob> I dist-upgrade my system almost all days (at least 3 times a week), I'm seeing the bug since.... a month?
20:47:54 <andi5> or: you could replace all "j"s in your datafile with "z"s and retry
20:48:33 <jsled> paolob: when you say "isn't accepted", do you mean the letter does not appear?
20:48:41 <paolob> Tue, 16 Jan 2007 is the date of the last debian build
20:48:53 <jsled> Like, you press the keys 'hjk' and on the screen appears 'hk'?
20:49:00 <paolob> jsled, the letter doesn't appear, and since that moment the tnx cannot be saved
20:49:13 <andi5> the same holds for the status bar hints?
20:49:27 <paolob> jsled, hjk -> hk on the screen, and the "can't save the tnx" problem set
20:49:36 * jsled nods
20:50:31 <paolob> andi5, replace j with z ... the same z or any other letter?
20:50:34 <jsled> What language is your keyboard set to?
20:50:42 <paolob> spanish
20:50:55 <jsled> That could be part of it.
20:51:00 <paolob> but it doesn't give that problem in any other app
20:51:12 <jsled> Sure.
20:51:19 <paolob> let me try setting a english keyboard
20:51:27 <paolob> jsled, sure what?
20:51:27 <jsled> Well, gnucash -- and the register especially -- is weird.
20:51:37 <jsled> Sure re: not having the problem in other apps.
20:51:53 <andi5> oh... i am sorry... i tend to combine you with large data files, but you wrote how to reproduce the bug with an empty session
20:51:56 <jsled> For instance, the register cannot accept chinese or japanese input.
20:52:25 <jsled> Or, if you said the problem appears with 'é" or "ñ", I'd believe it.
20:52:33 <jsled> but 'j'? Just about the simplest letter ever.
20:52:44 <andi5> oh, that is not really true, we had success reports of japanese with the help of scim
20:53:06 <jsled> andi5: Good point, but it's not as readily possible as it should be, with gtk2 widgets, &c.
20:53:33 <jsled> I don't know if it's a "misconfiguration" of your machine, but it's certainly something only you are seeing; if any of us saw problems like that it'd be a Major Big Deal.
20:54:26 <andi5> paolob: you could use `xev' and check whether your j key sends something special
20:54:28 <paolob> noooooooooooooooooo
20:54:31 <jsled> As such, anything you can do about narrowing down the problem and finding in what circumstances it does/does-not occur is going to be helpful.
20:54:48 <paolob> the bug persist even with keyboard set to english
20:55:17 <jsled> For me, for now, I depart. Good luck, and talk to you later.
20:57:18 <andi5> paolob: /tmp/gnucash.trace has nothing for us, too?
20:59:49 <paolob> http://pastebin.ca/369818 is gnucash.trace
21:01:06 <paolob> http://pastebin.ca/369821 is the output of xev for ghj
21:02:00 <andi5> paolob: can you retry after `mv ~/.gnucash ~/.gnucash.bak'? (watch out for the command, do not trust me)
21:03:31 <paolob> andi5, I did it, all is ok now
21:03:53 <jsled> It works?
21:04:07 <andi5> paolob: i guess you know how to go on?
21:04:41 <paolob> jsled, I haven't the bug anymore after mv away .gnucash/
21:04:44 <andi5> we need the smallest bug-provoking piece of scheme :)
21:05:31 <paolob> andi5, what file should I look for?
21:05:51 <andi5> i have no clue... but your pastebin shows some files that produce errors
21:06:41 <andi5> paolob: make a backup of what fails.... then remove stuff, retest, readd other stuff... until you know what it is :-)
21:15:18 <paolob> andi5, jsled, I found it: in accelerator-map all is ;-ed, I only have a not ;-ed line:
21:15:26 <paolob> (gtk_accel_path "<Actions>/GncPluginPageRegisterActions/CutTransactionAction" "j")
21:15:37 <jsled> Wow.
21:15:43 <andi5> tada
21:15:47 <jsled> andi5: nice.
21:15:55 <paolob> but how did I get it?!?!?
21:16:01 <andi5> what file?
21:16:08 <paolob> accelerator-map
21:17:22 <andi5> i guess you move your mouse over txn->cut and pressed "j"... if you have activated some weird learn-my-accelerators stuff somewhere... well, i do not know
21:19:22 <paolob> well, how shall I do no? delete that line? delete the j? ;-ed it?
21:19:29 <paolob> s/how/what/
21:19:37 <paolob> s/no/now/
21:20:05 <andi5> do you care about the accelerators in there? you could just remove the file... if it pops up again, you will have to go searching for the source of the problem :)
21:20:57 <andi5> [ot] never rename a file and afterwards expect the code to still find it.... *grrrr*
21:27:51 <andi5> @tell hampton do you think i could rename gnc-fq-blah to gnc-fq-blah.pl? (1) they are perl scripts, makes this clearer ; (2) g-find-program-in-path on windows will search for blah.exe, blah.com etc. if no file type suffix is given, i.e. not find it ; (3) taking the bin directory would change the current behavior
21:27:51 <gncbot> andi5: The operation succeeded.
21:28:34 <paolob> andi5, jsled, thank you very much for your help!!
21:28:40 <andi5> seems like the only really problem left is 'strptime missing in guile on windows' ....
21:28:47 <paolob> ...by,,,
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21:49:04 <andi5> @tell jsled a big thank you for your logging work, it really helped a lot :-)
21:49:04 <gncbot> andi5: The operation succeeded.
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