2007-01-26 GnuCash IRC logs

00:21:19 <warlord> hampton: fwiw, I've got swig-1.3.31-0.fc5 ... but make sure that the swig-runtime.h was generated with the same version of swig that generated everything else.
00:29:12 <hampton> That must have been it. It works now.
00:29:42 <warlord> cool.
00:30:22 <warlord> okay... i'm off. goodnight.
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00:30:32 <hampton> night
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01:19:02 <mcos> hi!
01:19:38 <mcos> first off, I just want to say, thanks a lot devs for making such a great program, I'm a recent graduate and I've really started to get stuck into GnuCash to help me sort my finances
01:20:12 <mcos> however, I do have a question regarding loans - I'm not sure if you'll be able to help me, since it's a financial question rather than bug report, but here goes...
01:21:02 <mcos> if I have a student loan with compounding daily interest, which gets added to my loan amount at the end of the day (I think that's how it works) how would I set that up in GnuCash?
01:22:34 <jsled> mcos: the Tutorial and Concepts Guide is a good read.
01:22:55 <mcos> hi jsled, yes it is a very good read, I've been using it to set up all my accounts
01:23:03 <jsled> In short, you should setup the principal of the loan as the Liability account balance. Interest payments are an Expense
01:23:05 <mcos> however, I find the loan part a bit lacking
01:23:48 <mcos> right so the daily interest, should be a transfer between expense:interest to liability:loan
01:23:49 <mcos> ?
01:24:24 <jsled> No, the interest is not part of the loan, you don't need to add it to the liability/loan account.
01:25:02 <jsled> When you make a payment, the Principal payment split pays down the Liability, and a seperate split is for the Interest/Expense.
01:29:08 <mcos> ya that's what I thought, but doesn't compounding interest mean it gets added back to the principal?
01:29:09 <mcos> I think I get an interest amount calculated (prime +2.5%) daily, and then added to my loan.... I could be mistaken
01:29:14 <mcos> then each month, I make a loan repayment amount, which includes all the interest plus a bit of the principal
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01:30:42 <mcos> I see... so I should leave my principal well enough alone, and when I make a repayment, I should create that transaction as a split, with part of it going into my loan, and the other bit into expense/interest
01:31:05 <mcos> I see... so I should leave my principal well enough alone, and when I make a repayment, I should create that transaction as a split, with part of it going into my loan, and the other bit into expense/interest
01:31:19 <mcos> so the question is then...
01:31:54 <mcos> how do I calculate how much of my payment actually goes into paying down the principal
01:32:27 <mcos> I'm just starting to get my head around the financial calculator... is that capable of doing what I need?
01:32:54 <jsled> It's capable of computing the values if you enter them, but its not going to help you create the transactions automatically.
01:33:31 <jsled> You could try using the mortgage/loan druid, but I don't recall what compounding schedule it assumes.
01:33:43 <mcos> right, I'm okay with creating transactions and putting them in
01:34:03 <mcos> I guess I just need to try and do some reading up on how compounding interest with loans works
01:34:21 <jsled> It also won't add the computed interest (or any overpayments) to the principle. In any case, the math is based on the initial values of the loan.
01:34:50 <jsled> You can compute the principal and interest fractions of any and all payments given the initial values of the loan.
01:35:24 <jsled> (so long as they don't deviate, via e.g. overpayment)
01:35:56 <mcos> okay, thanks a lot jsled for the help, I will continue to do some reading, it might get complicated for me because I've already done some overpayments
01:36:19 <jsled> If you have the statement, you can just enter the principal/interest values from that.
01:36:23 <mcos> like I said, great program, if I ever get my head around loans, I'll try and contribute some text for the tutorial
01:36:41 <jsled> Or, you could use the mortgage/loan druid to setup the basic scheduled transaction structure, then tweak the values from the statements.
01:36:50 <mcos> ya the Canadian government doesn't send me any loan statements
01:37:39 <mcos> (bums)
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01:55:30 <eweb> Hi, everyone.
01:55:57 <eweb> Anyone know if there's a scripting language for gnucash?
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05:11:52 <cstim> @tell eweb Gnucash uses Scheme as scripting language. See also http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ
05:11:52 <gncbot> cstim: The operation succeeded.
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10:07:08 * cstim is having a heavy flamefest with Martin Preuss about his aqbanking3 structure, on aqbanking-devel :-(
10:10:35 <warlord> what's the flame about?
10:10:50 <warlord> Maybe we should all get together in March? ;)
10:17:06 <cstim> aqbanking needs GUI callback functions (when e.g. asking the user a password). These callbacks used to be set in the current AB_BANKING object.
10:17:22 <cstim> Martin decided that in aqbanking3 these callbacks should be set into one global static object.
10:20:47 <cstim> I said static objects in the context of a GUI app are a bad idea. He disagrees.
10:20:52 <warlord> Oh. That could be bad!
10:21:08 <warlord> It's bad on Windows if you have multiple apps using the same AQB DLL!
10:21:15 <warlord> Because there's ONE INSTANCE of the dll for ALL apps!
10:21:30 <cstim> oh. interesting argument.
10:21:41 <warlord> So when you set the 'global', all apps will use the same set of callback functions.
10:23:22 <warlord> Don't say "the gnucash developers".. Just say that you mentioned this to some collegues of you and [me] said: <cut-and-paste>. Feel free to mention me by name, Martin knows me.
10:24:57 <cstim> is argument is that parallel instances of the AB_BANKING object should be forbidden anyway.
10:25:06 <cstim> s/^is/His/
10:25:19 <cstim> well, I'll see.
10:26:43 <warlord> So you can't have two apps on Windows both using AQB at the same time?
10:27:34 <warlord> @tell andi5 And just for confirmation, we dropped guile<1.6 support in 2.0..
10:27:34 <gncbot> warlord: The operation succeeded.
10:34:07 <cstim> warlord: are you really really sure there is only one system-wide instance of static variables of DLLs?
10:34:22 <cstim> it seems rather ... strange :-) ... to me
10:35:13 <warlord> I'm fairly sure, yes.
10:36:32 <cstim> Indeed; http://www.zetnet.co.uk/rad/dll.html says the same.
10:37:46 <warlord> This is why "static variables == BAD" :-D
10:37:54 <warlord> (well, it's yet another reason)
10:42:03 <cstim> yeah
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10:48:15 <esodan> Hi all :)
10:49:24 <esodan> Does any one know where Qof Event is used?
10:51:45 <warlord> EVERYWHERE
10:52:11 <warlord> But Qof Events should (eventually) be mapped onto g_signal
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10:53:48 <esodan> Good! then when I found a Qof Event I have to "replace" it with a g_signal or (as actualy I have the code) emit both!
10:54:16 <esodan> Realy?
10:54:52 <warlord> Really what?
10:55:15 <warlord> qof_generate_event() should be modified to generate a g_signal...
10:55:58 <esodan> Aaahhh! mmmm! I'll review that...
10:58:21 <warlord> Don't think of "qof and goject in parallel", think of "change the QOF implementation to use GObject/glib while keeping the QOF API as stable as possible".
10:58:42 <warlord> At least think of it this was as the first step.
11:00:49 <esodan> I'm finished to convert all QofObject to be GObjects, but I have to add some API to the actual one, I'm trying not to touch the actual API...
11:02:16 <esodan> I'm in the process to be shure that the object's construction and destruction is correct...
11:02:35 <warlord> Okay..
11:03:05 <warlord> Are you sure you dont want a SVN branch so you can make small, auditable changes?
11:03:21 <warlord> A single, large, code-drop is likely to be ignored as too hard to audit..
11:04:41 <esodan> Then I can send my actual work even if it hasn't been tested yet?
11:06:20 <esodan> Other question... If a Entity is removed from a Collection it could still be alive or when removed you must free its memory...
11:08:57 <chris> esodan: yes, you could commit untested code to a branch.
11:09:10 <warlord> esodan: Yes, if you have a branch you can "commit early, commit often" and you don't have to worry about the branch actually building/working.
11:09:32 <warlord> An Entity can still be alive when removed from a Collection.
11:09:49 <chris> esodan: I think you want to remove the entity from the collection when destroying it, but not destroy it automantically if it's removed from the collection.
11:10:04 <warlord> chris: Exactly!
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11:14:35 <warlord> BIAB...
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11:16:36 <esodan> Ok, I'll take that in acount...
11:17:38 <esodan> warlord: could you help me with the branch? and tell me the steps to commit and autenticate it...
11:18:04 <esodan> by e-mail?
11:22:03 <esodan> Just to comment that I'll try to merge QofEntity with QofInstance, before to commit, first if the change could be with out modify the actual API... or a great impact to other code's parts
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11:25:42 <cstim> hi andi5
11:25:49 <andi5> hiho
11:26:33 <esodan> I have other question... I don't find why a QofBook inherits from QofInstance, a QofInstance has a pointer to Book, then I think QofBook must derived from GObject not QofInstance...
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11:30:15 <hampton> lib/libqof/qof/qofbook-p.h:49
11:30:16 <cstim> andi5: are you subscribed on aqbanking-devel
11:30:25 <andi5> yes
11:30:55 <cstim> so you've been able to read yourself :-/
11:31:57 <andi5> yes... but i am not the one for this argument... i understand you pretty well, while being a pure aqbanking _user_
11:32:58 <andi5> i wonder whether there are any active kmoney devs on that mailing list?
11:33:26 <cstim> Thomas Baumgart from kmymoney reads at least openhbci-general; I'm not sure about aqbanking-devel.
11:34:18 <andi5> i think derek has a good point.... i would stress that
11:34:37 <cstim> you know, this guy http://cstimming.de/php-cgi/GnucashWuerzburg/R0010742
11:37:11 <esodan> hampton: yes in qofbook-p.h you have a dependence to
11:37:54 <esodan> QofInstance, but I think a book is a set of collections of instance and a book isn't an instance...
11:39:12 <hampton> So your question wasn't whether a QofBook inherits from a QofInstance, but *why* a QofBook inherits from a QofInstance?
11:39:14 <andi5> hm... i remember someone has asked about gzipped files on windows.... is he ... working on the issue?
11:39:52 <cstim> andi5: I recall someone on -devel, but I haven't anything since then,
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11:42:11 <andi5> cstim: what is the status of aqbanking@windows? [/] (half done)?
11:42:58 <andi5> i could test my hbci setup at the weekend, i guess it will not hurt ;)
11:44:15 <cstim> andi5: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.finance.aqbanking.devel/977
11:44:44 <cstim> I haven't been able to do any networking functions successfully.
11:45:37 <andi5> ok...
11:45:40 <cstim> so it's not yet done.
11:46:13 <cstim> The -devel email from 2005 (HBCI testing instructions) is still accurate.
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11:48:57 <esodan> hampton: Yes that what I try to say.. :-P
11:52:53 <andi5> cstim: do you think that "-O2" or "-O0" should be the default on windows? (i would leave it as it is, O2)
11:54:07 <cstim> I would also leave it as is
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12:00:14 <hampton> esodan: I don't know why its that way. I think that QoFInstance was designed as the equivalent of GObject. Neither of the two developers who did the most work on QOF are still active so we can't ask.
12:05:51 <jsled> esodan: the g_object signals are sufficiently different qof-events that I don't know if we need to do it right now.
12:06:21 <jsled> s/different/different from/
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12:12:37 <cstim> does anyone know which part of the code Ethy Brito talks about? My question of yesterday wasn't answered...
12:12:56 <MrN> hi
12:13:34 <cstim> hi
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12:14:32 <warlord> esodan: Yes, I can help you with Subversion. You'll need to send me your SSH Public Key and your preferred username (and spelling of your full name).
12:14:54 <esodan> jsled: right, I'm leave them out for now, but may I'll add one and find if there's conflicts with Qof events, just for test...
12:15:18 <esodan> warlord: Ok sending...
12:15:20 <warlord> esodan, hampton: in terms of why QofBook is derived from QofInstance, the reason is that a QofBook wants all the "things" that are in a QofInstance, like the refcounting, KVP Slots, GUID, etc.
12:16:31 <hampton> refcounting? Don't make me laugh.
12:17:33 <warlord> well, okay.. theoretically refcounting.
12:17:57 <hampton> lol
12:18:24 <andi5> warlord failed ;-)
12:18:29 <hampton> ah. man. If we had refcounting there wouldn't be all the gtktreemodel display bugs.
12:18:58 <esodan> warlord: could you talk more about that, what a bout KVP Slots, is book's KVP slots or the QofInstance's KVP slots?
12:19:23 <warlord> esodan: What's the difference?
12:19:59 <jsled> esodan: yeah, there shouldn't be conflicts ... but the model for the events vs. signals is just different enough that it might affect a lot of code.
12:20:20 <jsled> Nicely, however, we can change them somewhat incrementally.
12:20:36 <cstim> hampton: Should I count some refs for you to relieve you of some gtktreemodel bugs? :-)
12:20:56 <warlord> Hehe
12:21:08 <hampton> one object ref. two object refs. three object refs....
12:21:17 <jsled> :)
12:21:48 <warlord> one ref for you, one ref for me, two refs for you, one, two refs for me. three refs for you, one, two, three refs for me. ...
12:21:56 <esodan> jsled: May I can add g_signals and leave to future the code *change* to use g_signas and not Qof events....
12:22:18 <hampton> lol
12:23:31 <warlord> esodan: if qof_generate_event() generates a g_signal, and the intenral QOF Event code acts on g_signals, then yes... Everything that uses QOF Events should just continue to work fine.
12:24:08 <warlord> (without changing the usage)
12:25:46 <esodan> warlord: Well, becouse book is a QofIntances it inherits a kvp_frame pointer, but its a book's kvp not the entities' kvps...
12:26:44 <esodan> warlord: I can emit a g_singal and then a Qof event, but I need to review the qof event's way to see the better...
12:28:26 <warlord> esodan: I still dont understand the issue with the kvp_frame in terms of "who's" it is. The whole point of inheritence is that you want to share stuff. A QofBook wants all the things that QofInstance provides, so it was derived from QofInstance.
12:28:35 <esodan> For object ref counting, I have to modify the Qof's objects construction and destruction to be g_object_unref safe...
12:29:11 <warlord> BIAB.
12:30:35 <esodan> warlord: Ok, for now QofBook inherits from QofIntance... I'll review where the QofIntance features are used by QofBook, but I'm not worry for now, I was just asking to know what do you think...
12:41:17 <warlord> well, we want to have SOME higher-level object that contains a GUID, KVP-frame slots, etc that EVERYTHING inherits from, incuding QofBook.
12:44:20 <warlord> esodan: also, the reason for the QofEntity/QofInstance disparity is that there are places where all we know is the Type+GUID and don't have access to the full data object.
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13:03:40 <esodan> warlord: becouse that and for construction/destruction issues I have merged QofInstance and QofEntity, and leave QofInstance as the root GObject (I realy like if I can change its name to GncObject)
13:04:29 <warlord> Names can change later. Let's not worry about that now.
13:05:09 <warlord> We might need to think about how to use QofEntity in places where we don't have full access to the QofInstance.
13:05:30 <esodan> Now I have deprecated QofIdType, and replaced with GType... now you don't need to have a pointer to a string to know the object type thanks to GType/GObject and G_OBJECT_TYPE macro...
13:07:13 <warlord> True.
13:07:36 <warlord> But we still need a GType/GUID tuple...
13:13:24 <warlord> I think we'd need to analyze everwhere we're passing around a QofEntity instead of a QofInstance and see if it makes sense as a QofInstance or if we only really have the Type/GUID tuple..
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13:47:25 <jsled> GnuCash (on Windows) mention: http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/01/find_open_sourc.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890
13:50:22 <warlord> Cool.
13:50:35 <warlord> Maybe I should get involved in next year's Makers Fair?
13:51:37 <jsled> Sure. At some point I'd like to explore electronics; I've not really done anything with it since school.
13:52:04 <jsled> But especially between Make and Hack-a-Day there's just all sorts of nifty little projects out there.
13:52:17 <jsled> I mean, hell, they have a build-your-own MP3 player kit project.
13:52:25 <warlord> LOL.
13:52:34 <warlord> The Fair was a lot of fun to attend last year.
13:55:08 <hampton> Instructions for building an MP3 player. 1) Put on shoes and heavy overcoat. (Brrr) 2) Walk to the Apple store. 3) Purchase an iPod. Done!
13:56:06 <warlord> :-D
13:57:17 <MrN> fascinating how the whole rest of the industry is unable to produce something as popular as the ipod thing
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17:41:56 <warlord> andi5: why not just use g_chmod()?
17:46:01 <andi5> warlord: it is in the log... it depends on GLib 2.8
17:47:26 <warlord> Oh, g_chmod() is 2.8? Feh! Silly glib people.
17:47:57 <andi5> oh, you remind me... there is also a "access" in qif-import.... and we cannot use g_access because of the same reason
17:48:46 <warlord> there's an "access"?!
17:48:52 <warlord> I wonder why we do that?
17:50:11 <andi5> warlord: http://svn.gnucash.org/trac/browser/gnucash/trunk/src/import-export/qif-import/druid-qif-import.c#L479
17:51:03 <warlord> Oh... Blah.
17:51:47 <andi5> loading müü.qif -> Datei nicht gefunden oder Zugriffsberechtigung liegt nicht vor. Bitte wählen Sie eine andere Datei. BOOM
17:53:04 <warlord> Ahh, the "cannot find or open file"..
17:54:03 <andi5> hm.... can i just remove that "else if" block?
17:54:59 <warlord> No, it's testing to see if the file exists.
17:55:16 <warlord> Isn't there a windows equivalent of access()?
17:55:34 <warlord> If not, your other option is to use open(), and then immediately close it.
17:55:45 <andi5> _waccess... the patch will look very similar to the one for _wchmod
17:56:15 <warlord> okay
17:56:22 <andi5> ooook
17:57:08 <warlord> do you need to g_free() wlock?
17:57:24 <andi5> yes, i am sorry
17:57:27 <warlord> ( do you need to g_free() the return value from g_utf8_to_utf16()? )
17:57:30 <andi5> i leaked it
17:58:58 <warlord> this is why we audit our patches. ;)
17:59:07 <andi5> yeah, thanks :)
17:59:11 <warlord> NP.
17:59:14 <warlord> We all do things like that
18:03:32 <andi5> do i really need to check the string length of path_to_load once again? ... can it be negative? (i could also modify the test above to "<=")
18:04:30 <warlord> I dont think the length can be negative. We only need to test the length >0 once.
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18:21:30 <andi5> arrrgh.... loading qif files from paths containing non-ascii's seems to be nontrivial again... (guile probably wants the output of g_win32_locale_filename_from_utf8)
18:22:00 <warlord> Probably..
18:23:23 <andi5> maybe i am lucky and we do not store these paths in wrapped structures, but rather provide them as arguments to scheme functions... *hopes*
18:24:10 <warlord> I dont know.
18:24:35 <warlord> It's been YEARS since I really looked at that code.
18:25:15 <andi5> ok...i will grep for all functions in http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/docs/docs-1.6/guile-ref/File-Ports.html#File%20Ports , do we use others too?
18:25:44 <warlord> Gotta run.
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18:25:58 <andi5> bye warlord-afk
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18:53:53 <hampton> Why not add lib/glib28 (like we did lib/glib26) so you can have the g_chmod() function.
18:55:32 <andi5> hm... because right now there is only one usage of chmod and one of access... i guess the alternative is: a new directory, a new glib check in configure.in ... and what ;-)
18:56:16 <andi5> but more importantly: i wanted a quick fix without the need to rebuild a lot ;-) (compilation is _slow_)
18:58:59 <andi5> aksdfjfaijef... g_win32_locale_filename_from_utf8 was introduced in glib 2.8 too :-(
19:00:22 <andi5> hampton: maybe i will do that tomorrow then.... i really thought nothing more was missing in 2.6
19:01:22 <hampton> :-(
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20:54:57 <warlord> @tell andi5 I think it's okay to require glib-2.8 on win32.
20:54:57 <gncbot> warlord: The operation succeeded.
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21:02:50 <Akiyuki> I need to create an invoice/bill to send to a company requesting payment. Is gnucash the correct application?
21:03:39 <warlord> If you just need to compose an Invoice then GnuCash is probably overkill. GnuCash is a financial/accounting package.
21:04:26 <Akiyuki> Oh ok, what would you suggest instead? OpenOffice?
21:06:00 <warlord> Probably, yeah.
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21:35:44 <hampton> funny how you can't start any gui programs after hiding the pango libraries. :-P
21:37:27 <warlord> Funny that!
21:44:48 <jsled> :(
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22:48:34 <warlord> g'night
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23:56:30 <hampton> gncbot: tell andi5 Add g_file_set_contents to the list of things missing in 2.6. :-)
23:56:30 <gncbot> hampton: The operation succeeded.
23:56:36 <hampton> night all
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00:21:19 <warlord> hampton: fwiw, I've got swig-1.3.31-0.fc5 ... but make sure that the swig-runtime.h was generated with the same version of swig that generated everything else.
00:29:12 <hampton> That must have been it. It works now.
00:29:42 <warlord> cool.
00:30:22 <warlord> okay... i'm off. goodnight.
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00:30:32 <hampton> night
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01:19:02 <mcos> hi!
01:19:38 <mcos> first off, I just want to say, thanks a lot devs for making such a great program, I'm a recent graduate and I've really started to get stuck into GnuCash to help me sort my finances
01:20:12 <mcos> however, I do have a question regarding loans - I'm not sure if you'll be able to help me, since it's a financial question rather than bug report, but here goes...
01:21:02 <mcos> if I have a student loan with compounding daily interest, which gets added to my loan amount at the end of the day (I think that's how it works) how would I set that up in GnuCash?
01:22:34 <jsled> mcos: the Tutorial and Concepts Guide is a good read.
01:22:55 <mcos> hi jsled, yes it is a very good read, I've been using it to set up all my accounts
01:23:03 <jsled> In short, you should setup the principal of the loan as the Liability account balance. Interest payments are an Expense
01:23:05 <mcos> however, I find the loan part a bit lacking
01:23:48 <mcos> right so the daily interest, should be a transfer between expense:interest to liability:loan
01:23:49 <mcos> ?
01:24:24 <jsled> No, the interest is not part of the loan, you don't need to add it to the liability/loan account.
01:25:02 <jsled> When you make a payment, the Principal payment split pays down the Liability, and a seperate split is for the Interest/Expense.
01:29:08 <mcos> ya that's what I thought, but doesn't compounding interest mean it gets added back to the principal?
01:29:09 <mcos> I think I get an interest amount calculated (prime +2.5%) daily, and then added to my loan.... I could be mistaken
01:29:14 <mcos> then each month, I make a loan repayment amount, which includes all the interest plus a bit of the principal
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01:30:42 <mcos> I see... so I should leave my principal well enough alone, and when I make a repayment, I should create that transaction as a split, with part of it going into my loan, and the other bit into expense/interest
01:31:05 <mcos> I see... so I should leave my principal well enough alone, and when I make a repayment, I should create that transaction as a split, with part of it going into my loan, and the other bit into expense/interest
01:31:19 <mcos> so the question is then...
01:31:54 <mcos> how do I calculate how much of my payment actually goes into paying down the principal
01:32:27 <mcos> I'm just starting to get my head around the financial calculator... is that capable of doing what I need?
01:32:54 <jsled> It's capable of computing the values if you enter them, but its not going to help you create the transactions automatically.
01:33:31 <jsled> You could try using the mortgage/loan druid, but I don't recall what compounding schedule it assumes.
01:33:43 <mcos> right, I'm okay with creating transactions and putting them in
01:34:03 <mcos> I guess I just need to try and do some reading up on how compounding interest with loans works
01:34:21 <jsled> It also won't add the computed interest (or any overpayments) to the principle. In any case, the math is based on the initial values of the loan.
01:34:50 <jsled> You can compute the principal and interest fractions of any and all payments given the initial values of the loan.
01:35:24 <jsled> (so long as they don't deviate, via e.g. overpayment)
01:35:56 <mcos> okay, thanks a lot jsled for the help, I will continue to do some reading, it might get complicated for me because I've already done some overpayments
01:36:19 <jsled> If you have the statement, you can just enter the principal/interest values from that.
01:36:23 <mcos> like I said, great program, if I ever get my head around loans, I'll try and contribute some text for the tutorial
01:36:41 <jsled> Or, you could use the mortgage/loan druid to setup the basic scheduled transaction structure, then tweak the values from the statements.
01:36:50 <mcos> ya the Canadian government doesn't send me any loan statements
01:37:39 <mcos> (bums)
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01:55:30 <eweb> Hi, everyone.
01:55:57 <eweb> Anyone know if there's a scripting language for gnucash?
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05:11:52 <cstim> @tell eweb Gnucash uses Scheme as scripting language. See also http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ
05:11:52 <gncbot> cstim: The operation succeeded.
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10:07:08 * cstim is having a heavy flamefest with Martin Preuss about his aqbanking3 structure, on aqbanking-devel :-(
10:10:35 <warlord> what's the flame about?
10:10:50 <warlord> Maybe we should all get together in March? ;)
10:17:06 <cstim> aqbanking needs GUI callback functions (when e.g. asking the user a password). These callbacks used to be set in the current AB_BANKING object.
10:17:22 <cstim> Martin decided that in aqbanking3 these callbacks should be set into one global static object.
10:20:47 <cstim> I said static objects in the context of a GUI app are a bad idea. He disagrees.
10:20:52 <warlord> Oh. That could be bad!
10:21:08 <warlord> It's bad on Windows if you have multiple apps using the same AQB DLL!
10:21:15 <warlord> Because there's ONE INSTANCE of the dll for ALL apps!
10:21:30 <cstim> oh. interesting argument.
10:21:41 <warlord> So when you set the 'global', all apps will use the same set of callback functions.
10:23:22 <warlord> Don't say "the gnucash developers".. Just say that you mentioned this to some collegues of you and [me] said: <cut-and-paste>. Feel free to mention me by name, Martin knows me.
10:24:57 <cstim> is argument is that parallel instances of the AB_BANKING object should be forbidden anyway.
10:25:06 <cstim> s/^is/His/
10:25:19 <cstim> well, I'll see.
10:26:43 <warlord> So you can't have two apps on Windows both using AQB at the same time?
10:27:34 <warlord> @tell andi5 And just for confirmation, we dropped guile<1.6 support in 2.0..
10:27:34 <gncbot> warlord: The operation succeeded.
10:34:07 <cstim> warlord: are you really really sure there is only one system-wide instance of static variables of DLLs?
10:34:22 <cstim> it seems rather ... strange :-) ... to me
10:35:13 <warlord> I'm fairly sure, yes.
10:36:32 <cstim> Indeed; http://www.zetnet.co.uk/rad/dll.html says the same.
10:37:46 <warlord> This is why "static variables == BAD" :-D
10:37:54 <warlord> (well, it's yet another reason)
10:42:03 <cstim> yeah
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10:48:15 <esodan> Hi all :)
10:49:24 <esodan> Does any one know where Qof Event is used?
10:51:45 <warlord> EVERYWHERE
10:52:11 <warlord> But Qof Events should (eventually) be mapped onto g_signal
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10:53:48 <esodan> Good! then when I found a Qof Event I have to "replace" it with a g_signal or (as actualy I have the code) emit both!
10:54:16 <esodan> Realy?
10:54:52 <warlord> Really what?
10:55:15 <warlord> qof_generate_event() should be modified to generate a g_signal...
10:55:58 <esodan> Aaahhh! mmmm! I'll review that...
10:58:21 <warlord> Don't think of "qof and goject in parallel", think of "change the QOF implementation to use GObject/glib while keeping the QOF API as stable as possible".
10:58:42 <warlord> At least think of it this was as the first step.
11:00:49 <esodan> I'm finished to convert all QofObject to be GObjects, but I have to add some API to the actual one, I'm trying not to touch the actual API...
11:02:16 <esodan> I'm in the process to be shure that the object's construction and destruction is correct...
11:02:35 <warlord> Okay..
11:03:05 <warlord> Are you sure you dont want a SVN branch so you can make small, auditable changes?
11:03:21 <warlord> A single, large, code-drop is likely to be ignored as too hard to audit..
11:04:41 <esodan> Then I can send my actual work even if it hasn't been tested yet?
11:06:20 <esodan> Other question... If a Entity is removed from a Collection it could still be alive or when removed you must free its memory...
11:08:57 <chris> esodan: yes, you could commit untested code to a branch.
11:09:10 <warlord> esodan: Yes, if you have a branch you can "commit early, commit often" and you don't have to worry about the branch actually building/working.
11:09:32 <warlord> An Entity can still be alive when removed from a Collection.
11:09:49 <chris> esodan: I think you want to remove the entity from the collection when destroying it, but not destroy it automantically if it's removed from the collection.
11:10:04 <warlord> chris: Exactly!
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11:14:35 <warlord> BIAB...
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11:16:36 <esodan> Ok, I'll take that in acount...
11:17:38 <esodan> warlord: could you help me with the branch? and tell me the steps to commit and autenticate it...
11:18:04 <esodan> by e-mail?
11:22:03 <esodan> Just to comment that I'll try to merge QofEntity with QofInstance, before to commit, first if the change could be with out modify the actual API... or a great impact to other code's parts
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11:25:42 <cstim> hi andi5
11:25:49 <andi5> hiho
11:26:33 <esodan> I have other question... I don't find why a QofBook inherits from QofInstance, a QofInstance has a pointer to Book, then I think QofBook must derived from GObject not QofInstance...
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11:30:15 <hampton> lib/libqof/qof/qofbook-p.h:49
11:30:16 <cstim> andi5: are you subscribed on aqbanking-devel
11:30:25 <andi5> yes
11:30:55 <cstim> so you've been able to read yourself :-/
11:31:57 <andi5> yes... but i am not the one for this argument... i understand you pretty well, while being a pure aqbanking _user_
11:32:58 <andi5> i wonder whether there are any active kmoney devs on that mailing list?
11:33:26 <cstim> Thomas Baumgart from kmymoney reads at least openhbci-general; I'm not sure about aqbanking-devel.
11:34:18 <andi5> i think derek has a good point.... i would stress that
11:34:37 <cstim> you know, this guy http://cstimming.de/php-cgi/GnucashWuerzburg/R0010742
11:37:11 <esodan> hampton: yes in qofbook-p.h you have a dependence to
11:37:54 <esodan> QofInstance, but I think a book is a set of collections of instance and a book isn't an instance...
11:39:12 <hampton> So your question wasn't whether a QofBook inherits from a QofInstance, but *why* a QofBook inherits from a QofInstance?
11:39:14 <andi5> hm... i remember someone has asked about gzipped files on windows.... is he ... working on the issue?
11:39:52 <cstim> andi5: I recall someone on -devel, but I haven't anything since then,
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11:42:11 <andi5> cstim: what is the status of aqbanking@windows? [/] (half done)?
11:42:58 <andi5> i could test my hbci setup at the weekend, i guess it will not hurt ;)
11:44:15 <cstim> andi5: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.finance.aqbanking.devel/977
11:44:44 <cstim> I haven't been able to do any networking functions successfully.
11:45:37 <andi5> ok...
11:45:40 <cstim> so it's not yet done.
11:46:13 <cstim> The -devel email from 2005 (HBCI testing instructions) is still accurate.
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11:48:57 <esodan> hampton: Yes that what I try to say.. :-P
11:52:53 <andi5> cstim: do you think that "-O2" or "-O0" should be the default on windows? (i would leave it as it is, O2)
11:54:07 <cstim> I would also leave it as is
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12:00:14 <hampton> esodan: I don't know why its that way. I think that QoFInstance was designed as the equivalent of GObject. Neither of the two developers who did the most work on QOF are still active so we can't ask.
12:05:51 <jsled> esodan: the g_object signals are sufficiently different qof-events that I don't know if we need to do it right now.
12:06:21 <jsled> s/different/different from/
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12:12:37 <cstim> does anyone know which part of the code Ethy Brito talks about? My question of yesterday wasn't answered...
12:12:56 <MrN> hi
12:13:34 <cstim> hi
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12:14:32 <warlord> esodan: Yes, I can help you with Subversion. You'll need to send me your SSH Public Key and your preferred username (and spelling of your full name).
12:14:54 <esodan> jsled: right, I'm leave them out for now, but may I'll add one and find if there's conflicts with Qof events, just for test...
12:15:18 <esodan> warlord: Ok sending...
12:15:20 <warlord> esodan, hampton: in terms of why QofBook is derived from QofInstance, the reason is that a QofBook wants all the "things" that are in a QofInstance, like the refcounting, KVP Slots, GUID, etc.
12:16:31 <hampton> refcounting? Don't make me laugh.
12:17:33 <warlord> well, okay.. theoretically refcounting.
12:17:57 <hampton> lol
12:18:24 <andi5> warlord failed ;-)
12:18:29 <hampton> ah. man. If we had refcounting there wouldn't be all the gtktreemodel display bugs.
12:18:58 <esodan> warlord: could you talk more about that, what a bout KVP Slots, is book's KVP slots or the QofInstance's KVP slots?
12:19:23 <warlord> esodan: What's the difference?
12:19:59 <jsled> esodan: yeah, there shouldn't be conflicts ... but the model for the events vs. signals is just different enough that it might affect a lot of code.
12:20:20 <jsled> Nicely, however, we can change them somewhat incrementally.
12:20:36 <cstim> hampton: Should I count some refs for you to relieve you of some gtktreemodel bugs? :-)
12:20:56 <warlord> Hehe
12:21:08 <hampton> one object ref. two object refs. three object refs....
12:21:17 <jsled> :)
12:21:48 <warlord> one ref for you, one ref for me, two refs for you, one, two refs for me. three refs for you, one, two, three refs for me. ...
12:21:56 <esodan> jsled: May I can add g_signals and leave to future the code *change* to use g_signas and not Qof events....
12:22:18 <hampton> lol
12:23:31 <warlord> esodan: if qof_generate_event() generates a g_signal, and the intenral QOF Event code acts on g_signals, then yes... Everything that uses QOF Events should just continue to work fine.
12:24:08 <warlord> (without changing the usage)
12:25:46 <esodan> warlord: Well, becouse book is a QofIntances it inherits a kvp_frame pointer, but its a book's kvp not the entities' kvps...
12:26:44 <esodan> warlord: I can emit a g_singal and then a Qof event, but I need to review the qof event's way to see the better...
12:28:26 <warlord> esodan: I still dont understand the issue with the kvp_frame in terms of "who's" it is. The whole point of inheritence is that you want to share stuff. A QofBook wants all the things that QofInstance provides, so it was derived from QofInstance.
12:28:35 <esodan> For object ref counting, I have to modify the Qof's objects construction and destruction to be g_object_unref safe...
12:29:11 <warlord> BIAB.
12:30:35 <esodan> warlord: Ok, for now QofBook inherits from QofIntance... I'll review where the QofIntance features are used by QofBook, but I'm not worry for now, I was just asking to know what do you think...
12:41:17 <warlord> well, we want to have SOME higher-level object that contains a GUID, KVP-frame slots, etc that EVERYTHING inherits from, incuding QofBook.
12:44:20 <warlord> esodan: also, the reason for the QofEntity/QofInstance disparity is that there are places where all we know is the Type+GUID and don't have access to the full data object.
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13:03:40 <esodan> warlord: becouse that and for construction/destruction issues I have merged QofInstance and QofEntity, and leave QofInstance as the root GObject (I realy like if I can change its name to GncObject)
13:04:29 <warlord> Names can change later. Let's not worry about that now.
13:05:09 <warlord> We might need to think about how to use QofEntity in places where we don't have full access to the QofInstance.
13:05:30 <esodan> Now I have deprecated QofIdType, and replaced with GType... now you don't need to have a pointer to a string to know the object type thanks to GType/GObject and G_OBJECT_TYPE macro...
13:07:13 <warlord> True.
13:07:36 <warlord> But we still need a GType/GUID tuple...
13:13:24 <warlord> I think we'd need to analyze everwhere we're passing around a QofEntity instead of a QofInstance and see if it makes sense as a QofInstance or if we only really have the Type/GUID tuple..
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13:47:25 <jsled> GnuCash (on Windows) mention: http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/01/find_open_sourc.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890
13:50:22 <warlord> Cool.
13:50:35 <warlord> Maybe I should get involved in next year's Makers Fair?
13:51:37 <jsled> Sure. At some point I'd like to explore electronics; I've not really done anything with it since school.
13:52:04 <jsled> But especially between Make and Hack-a-Day there's just all sorts of nifty little projects out there.
13:52:17 <jsled> I mean, hell, they have a build-your-own MP3 player kit project.
13:52:25 <warlord> LOL.
13:52:34 <warlord> The Fair was a lot of fun to attend last year.
13:55:08 <hampton> Instructions for building an MP3 player. 1) Put on shoes and heavy overcoat. (Brrr) 2) Walk to the Apple store. 3) Purchase an iPod. Done!
13:56:06 <warlord> :-D
13:57:17 <MrN> fascinating how the whole rest of the industry is unable to produce something as popular as the ipod thing
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17:41:56 <warlord> andi5: why not just use g_chmod()?
17:46:01 <andi5> warlord: it is in the log... it depends on GLib 2.8
17:47:26 <warlord> Oh, g_chmod() is 2.8? Feh! Silly glib people.
17:47:57 <andi5> oh, you remind me... there is also a "access" in qif-import.... and we cannot use g_access because of the same reason
17:48:46 <warlord> there's an "access"?!
17:48:52 <warlord> I wonder why we do that?
17:50:11 <andi5> warlord: http://svn.gnucash.org/trac/browser/gnucash/trunk/src/import-export/qif-import/druid-qif-import.c#L479
17:51:03 <warlord> Oh... Blah.
17:51:47 <andi5> loading müü.qif -> Datei nicht gefunden oder Zugriffsberechtigung liegt nicht vor. Bitte wählen Sie eine andere Datei. BOOM
17:53:04 <warlord> Ahh, the "cannot find or open file"..
17:54:03 <andi5> hm.... can i just remove that "else if" block?
17:54:59 <warlord> No, it's testing to see if the file exists.
17:55:16 <warlord> Isn't there a windows equivalent of access()?
17:55:34 <warlord> If not, your other option is to use open(), and then immediately close it.
17:55:45 <andi5> _waccess... the patch will look very similar to the one for _wchmod
17:56:15 <warlord> okay
17:56:22 <andi5> ooook
17:57:08 <warlord> do you need to g_free() wlock?
17:57:24 <andi5> yes, i am sorry
17:57:27 <warlord> ( do you need to g_free() the return value from g_utf8_to_utf16()? )
17:57:30 <andi5> i leaked it
17:58:58 <warlord> this is why we audit our patches. ;)
17:59:07 <andi5> yeah, thanks :)
17:59:11 <warlord> NP.
17:59:14 <warlord> We all do things like that
18:03:32 <andi5> do i really need to check the string length of path_to_load once again? ... can it be negative? (i could also modify the test above to "<=")
18:04:30 <warlord> I dont think the length can be negative. We only need to test the length >0 once.
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18:21:30 <andi5> arrrgh.... loading qif files from paths containing non-ascii's seems to be nontrivial again... (guile probably wants the output of g_win32_locale_filename_from_utf8)
18:22:00 <warlord> Probably..
18:23:23 <andi5> maybe i am lucky and we do not store these paths in wrapped structures, but rather provide them as arguments to scheme functions... *hopes*
18:24:10 <warlord> I dont know.
18:24:35 <warlord> It's been YEARS since I really looked at that code.
18:25:15 <andi5> ok...i will grep for all functions in http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/docs/docs-1.6/guile-ref/File-Ports.html#File%20Ports , do we use others too?
18:25:44 <warlord> Gotta run.
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18:25:58 <andi5> bye warlord-afk
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18:53:53 <hampton> Why not add lib/glib28 (like we did lib/glib26) so you can have the g_chmod() function.
18:55:32 <andi5> hm... because right now there is only one usage of chmod and one of access... i guess the alternative is: a new directory, a new glib check in configure.in ... and what ;-)
18:56:16 <andi5> but more importantly: i wanted a quick fix without the need to rebuild a lot ;-) (compilation is _slow_)
18:58:59 <andi5> aksdfjfaijef... g_win32_locale_filename_from_utf8 was introduced in glib 2.8 too :-(
19:00:22 <andi5> hampton: maybe i will do that tomorrow then.... i really thought nothing more was missing in 2.6
19:01:22 <hampton> :-(
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19:35:29 <prock> PING 1169858126 536076
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20:54:57 <warlord> @tell andi5 I think it's okay to require glib-2.8 on win32.
20:54:57 <gncbot> warlord: The operation succeeded.
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21:02:50 <Akiyuki> I need to create an invoice/bill to send to a company requesting payment. Is gnucash the correct application?
21:03:39 <warlord> If you just need to compose an Invoice then GnuCash is probably overkill. GnuCash is a financial/accounting package.
21:04:26 <Akiyuki> Oh ok, what would you suggest instead? OpenOffice?
21:06:00 <warlord> Probably, yeah.
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21:35:44 <hampton> funny how you can't start any gui programs after hiding the pango libraries. :-P
21:37:27 <warlord> Funny that!
21:44:48 <jsled> :(
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22:48:34 <warlord> g'night
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23:56:30 <hampton> gncbot: tell andi5 Add g_file_set_contents to the list of things missing in 2.6. :-)
23:56:30 <gncbot> hampton: The operation succeeded.
23:56:36 <hampton> night all
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