2007-01-04 GnuCash IRC logs
00:00:07 <warlord> Regardless, gnucash is a big application.
00:00:20 <elb> yes, I understand all that
00:00:26 <elb> gnucash is big, gnome is huge
00:00:39 <elb> my question was, is there a way to not load the report goop I don't need, or to load it on demand
00:01:33 <warlord> No
00:01:45 <warlord> You can not load the REPORTS, but you already said that you dont have them open.
00:01:58 <warlord> That's the only "report" control you have -- whatever you leave open between runs.
00:02:07 <warlord> (fwiw, my 15/7 seconds is with two reports)
00:02:11 <elb> ok
00:02:22 <elb> yeah, I don't approach that on my Dell, either
00:02:42 <elb> I might with *no* reports
00:03:24 <elb> loading the reports infrastructure may not even be slowing down startup that much -- I'm just going by the progress messages
00:03:47 <elb> I'd love to knock down the startup if I can, because I tend to open gnucash multiple times a day to enter individual transactions
00:06:19 <warlord> Why not just leave it up?
00:07:35 <elb> because a) it's remote X11, and when I move my laptop from place to place, I have to restart it anyway, and b) I'm not the only user using it, so I have to quit it to release the lock
00:08:36 <warlord> OH, remote X! Well, THAT ALONE will slow down the startup! Have you considered VNC?
00:09:42 <elb> is it that inefficient?
00:09:44 <elb> gnucash, that is
00:10:25 <elb> Gtk+ isn't great for remote X11 (the Gtk+ guys don't seem to understand the benefits of network transparency, viz. their complete failure to comprehend the X resource database and server-side fonts), but it's not *that* bad
00:10:46 <elb> I use a lot of remote X11 apps
00:11:29 <elb> and, over a local network, X11 is generally faster than VNC *except* for startup times (due to the unfortunate chattiness of modern toolkits at startup incurring massive RTT penalties)
00:13:32 <warlord> No, remote-X is!
00:13:53 <warlord> but remote-X GTK is horribke
00:13:56 <warlord> horrible, even
00:14:26 <elb> eh, it's not that bad
00:16:47 <elb> for the record, vnc startup time was substantially similar
00:17:03 <elb> within 2-3 seconds of a startup of about 25 seconds
00:18:06 <elb> at any rate, it sounds like the answer is that there's nothing I can shut off for the day-to-day simple transaction entries, and that's a fine answer, I just thought it was worth a shot
00:18:14 <elb> good night, for now :-)
00:19:06 <warlord> Se ya
00:20:09 <zombor> im must be an idiot or something i still cant get this to work right =/
00:20:44 <warlord> The 'expense' from the vendor bill offsets the 'income' on the customer invoice.. That offset is your COGS.
00:21:05 <warlord> It still shows you having $200 of income and $150 of expense individually.
00:23:19 <foo> I am in an invoice right now.. and I set the unit price to 50, but the subtotal still says 0
00:23:22 <foo> Any ideas?
00:23:44 <warlord> how many units?
00:23:56 <warlord> and did you hit 'enter' to commit the line?
00:24:21 <warlord> Oh, and did you click in the Inv? column to attach the item to the invoice?
00:25:32 <zombor> warlord: so, i made the bill for my initial inventory (2036.05), now i have 2036.05 in my expenses. Is it correct that I want to transfer that to my Assets then?
00:26:25 <foo> warlord: unit price = 50, yes enter, invoiced? is checked
00:29:55 <foo> hm, I can't select the income account
00:30:16 <foo> I set up 3, I thought /me looks around to make sure they were saved
00:31:00 <foo> account summary shows the 3
00:31:00 <foo> hmm
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00:33:29 <warlord> zombor: like I said, gnucash doesn't track inventory.. It's pure income/expense tracking for that.. Or you could use an Assets:Inventory account instead of Expense in the vendor bill. It should let you do that.
00:34:22 <zombor> warlord: like i said, /me is an idiot...i got it now. Assets is only money
00:36:52 <zombor> thanks for the help/clarification
00:37:03 <warlord> You're welcome
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00:51:49 <foo> Any ideas? This problem is weird
00:51:58 <foo> Or maybe I'm doing something wrong, heh.
00:57:29 <warlord> foo: unit price = 50, what's the qty?
00:57:54 <warlord> as for not selecting the income account... Are you sure they are of "type income"?
00:59:45 <foo> ok, it says 50 for subtotal now
01:00:03 <foo> hm, I am trying to edit the accounts to check
01:00:36 <foo> Hm, it is A/Receiavable
01:00:41 <foo> That's probably the default.
01:01:00 <foo> warlord: Income .. meaning, that income goes to this account?
01:03:15 <warlord> No, that's NOT the default.. And it's not what you want for an Income account!
01:03:18 <foo> I'd assume that means the money that gets paid to me goes to that account
01:03:43 <foo> For example, my bank checking account ..
01:03:54 <foo> Both money goes in and out of that account for things I pay for and money that gets paid to me ..
01:03:58 <foo> Can I only have income/expense?
01:04:15 <foo> I'm probably confused
01:04:47 <warlord> Yes.. Go read the docs.
01:04:59 <warlord> ... and the wiki.
01:05:02 <warlord> It's QUITE clear.
01:09:24 <warlord> anyways, bedtime for me. good night
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01:11:11 <foo> So I need to build a heirarchy?
01:11:12 <foo> h
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09:12:08 <cstim> did you see the download numbers of the binary win32 package? https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=192
09:13:17 <cstim> already 120 downloads on the first day
09:14:18 <warlord> No, didn't look ;)
09:14:21 <warlord> But good to hear.
09:17:25 <warlord> cstim: did you see jarney1's message about -mwindows ?
09:21:49 <cstim> warlord: yes. I tried to add -mwindows to src/bin/Makefile.am but apparently it didn't change the behaviour of the gnucash-bin.exe DOS window.
09:22:45 <warlord> Huh. Did you try building all of gnucash with LDFLAGS=-mwindows?
09:23:25 <cstim> no, not yet.
09:24:05 <warlord> okay. I dont know if that would help or not.. just something to try, i guess.
09:25:37 <cstim> actually the first r15308-setup.exe on sf.net is really r15264. I accidentally renamed and uploaded an older setup.exe
09:26:02 <cstim> because the location of the resulting setup.exe had been changed by andi5 and I didn't see this change until today.
09:26:25 <warlord> OOPS!
09:26:25 <cstim> however, the user experience apparently isn't too much different.
09:28:31 <warlord> Good...
09:30:35 <cstim> and by now I've uploaded the r15309-setup.exe which is *really* r15309.
09:30:49 <warlord> :-D
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10:17:10 <rauch> hi all
10:18:19 <jsled> hello rauch
10:18:23 <rauch> just stepping bye to tell you that gnucash 2.0.4 is packaged up and available for suse 10.0 - 10.2 on ftp://rauchs-home.de/suse/ or on the mirror ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/misc/suser-crauch/
10:18:46 <jsled> awesome.
10:18:52 <rauch> it's available for both i686 and x86_64
10:20:27 <warlord> rauch: and it actually works? :)
10:20:44 <rauch> as I'm using it myself, i assume so ;)
10:20:49 <warlord> On 10.2?
10:20:54 <rauch> yes
10:21:06 <warlord> Ahh, cool.. Then maybe you can respond to the user(s) on the mailing lists? ;)
10:21:53 <rauch> hm, which one? i am subscribed to gnucash-devel and gnucash-de
10:22:04 <cstim> rauch: very cool! Thanks a lot.
10:23:00 <cstim> rauch: errors on startup on suse10.2: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=391601
10:24:46 <rauch> cstim: he compiled this one himself?
10:25:10 <warlord> rauch: i think it's on gnucash-user
10:25:30 <rauch> warlord: seems to I'll have to subscribe to another ml ;)
10:25:51 <warlord> heh
10:25:54 <warlord> thanks!
10:27:15 * cstim still isn't subscribed to -user
10:29:15 <cstim> rauch: http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2007-January/018770.html
10:29:58 <rauch> cstim: he posted this one in alt.os.linux.suse today too...
10:30:15 <rauch> I responded 15 min. ago
10:30:57 <rauch> seems to he installed somehow the rpm for 10.1 which needs .so.12
10:31:37 <rauch> he will need the new rpm for 10.2 which need .so.17
10:31:47 <chris> Hi rauch, since you're here... I'm curious, about how many packages do you package for SuSE?
10:31:51 <warlord> How did he even get the package installed?
10:32:08 <rauch> hm, he says, he _upgraded_ from 10.1...
10:32:26 <warlord> Yeah, but... RPM should've warned on that dependency!
10:32:37 <warlord> or is SuSE's upgrade system broken?
10:32:57 <rauch> yeah, should, but I don't know how this behaves on an system upgrade...
10:33:23 <rauch> warlord: http://rauchs-home.de/packages.shtml lists all my packages
10:34:05 <rauch> atm this are 10 packages for 3 versions
10:35:18 <cstim> huh. a lot of work.
10:35:41 <cstim> rauch: ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/misc/linux/suser-crauch/ currently gived a No such file or directory
10:35:51 <cstim> s/gived/gives/
10:36:02 <jsled> works for me.
10:36:10 <rauch> oups... missed a /pub
10:36:45 <jsled> Aye, I clikced on the /pub-containing link from earlier, not the one cstim posted.
10:37:06 <chris> rauch: about how many people are there who package packages for openSUSE but who don't work for Novell? (if you have any guess.)
10:37:32 <rauch> don't know exact numbers, but I think ~ 15 to 20
10:37:48 <rauch> whereas packman is the biggest group
10:38:27 <chris> And the total number of packages offered by that groups is.. ? a few hundred?
10:39:34 <rauch> i think much more
10:40:11 <rauch> packman (10.2 x86_64) are 1535 files...
10:40:12 <chris> (I'm trying to understand the openSUSE ecosystem. It's a little odd for someone used to the Redhat/Fedora distribution model.)
10:41:17 <rauch> ok, make that 1500/2, as they have detached gpg signatures
10:41:23 <chris> wow, so is that even more than the number of "official" packages? (assuming there is such a thing)
10:41:40 <chris> Oh, probably less than...
10:42:17 <rauch> tha official ones (oss only) are 4329 files, so it is much less ;)
10:42:30 <cstim> chris: The INDEX of the dvd are slightly more than 400
10:42:34 <cstim> s/400/4000
10:42:53 <chris> cstim: do you run SuSE?
10:43:45 <chris> Ok, the "unofficial" packages are approximately 1/4 the number of official packages...
10:44:16 <cstim> chris: and what's the Redhat/Fedora distribution model like?
10:44:23 <rauch> make that 1/3, as there is not only packman
10:44:26 <cstim> chris: yes, I do
10:45:08 <chris> And do the unofficial packagers have any sort of formal or semi-formal organization or is each one pretty much on their own?
10:46:08 <rauch> packman is the only team I know of, all others (like me) are on their own
10:46:24 <chris> cstim: seems to me in the recent Fedora years there's been a lot of publically-visible process involved in packaging.
10:46:27 <rauch> but almost everyone is present on opensuse-packaging ml
10:46:49 <rauch> so we assure, that not 4 or 5 people build the same package
10:46:49 <chris> "packman" is more than one person?
10:46:55 <rauch> yes
10:47:08 <chris> that sounds pretty informal.
10:47:10 <rauch> http://packman.links2linux.de/
10:48:07 <chris> Are there difficulties with interdependencies between the different packagers?
10:48:34 <rauch> sometimes there are, but normally we figure out really fast
10:48:39 <chris> (this used to be a big problem with the "unofficial" redhat/fedora repos.)
10:49:24 <rauch> I for my self am in direct contact with the packager of aqbanking etc. so we can solve things fast
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10:50:13 <chris> It seems like the "unofficial" fedora packaging ecosystem pretty much got absorbed into fedora extras, which has a fair amount of process to organize it.
10:50:41 <chris> Novell decides which packages are "official", right?
10:50:51 <rauch> suse tries something similar, but imho it will take some time 'till this will work...
10:51:12 <rauch> the only official ones are those in the release. nothing else
10:51:33 <rauch> what doesn't make it in, stays unofficial
10:51:56 <rauch> (and is maintained by us packagers)
10:52:27 <rauch> they try to establish the so called "build service"
10:52:34 <xai> What's a typical way to do a year closing in GC?
10:52:40 <chris> Is there much change from release to release in which packages are included in the release? (Does novell "adopt" or "orphan" packages often?)
10:53:05 <warlord> xai: zeroize all your Income and Expense accounts into an Equity account
10:53:35 <chris> And, do you know why GnuCash isn't "official"?
10:53:47 <rauch> normally they do version upgrades only, sometimes they drop some old dependency not needed anymore, some new packages wanted by the community come in
10:53:55 <rauch> oh, gnucash is official
10:54:08 <rauch> but they aren't up to date
10:54:15 <chris> Oh, you just package the newer versions, right?
10:54:41 <rauch> correct, as they do not do version upgrades in one release
10:55:10 <xai> warlord: ok.. Is there any easy way to do that, or is it just elbow-grease?
10:55:13 <chris> not even minor versions?
10:55:48 <warlord> xai: right now.. elbow grease.
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10:56:03 <rauch> chris: no, only in case a package has a security problem and this tree is not maintained anymore (eg. firefox 1.0)
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10:56:57 <chris> I see. Interesting.
10:56:59 <xai> warlord: ok.. someone suggested that I just make an journal entry and balance it from the year's profit.
10:57:16 <warlord> in the end that's effectively what you're doing.
10:57:22 <xai> Well, its fast and dirty, but not precision.
10:57:24 <rauch> you have to upgrade to a newer distribution or hope, that one of the packagers makes an unofficial one
10:58:12 <xai> Of course there is a difference between what my accounting calls profit and what the IRS calls profit, so it doesn't quite balance perfrectly.
10:58:18 <warlord> rauch: so 10.0 -> 10.1 -> 10.2 aren't considered "upgrades"?
10:58:50 <xai> err. s/my accounting/gnucash (as configured)
10:59:01 <chris> rauch: what's the normal time between releases?
10:59:11 <warlord> xai: All you need to do is transfer all your Income and Expense accounts balances to one Equity account.. E.g. Equity:Retained Earnings:2006
10:59:18 <chris> (or cstim)
10:59:22 <rauch> chris: 1/2 year
10:59:59 <rauch> warlord: sure, these are upgrades, everything else is an update, as you don't update the whole distribution ;)
11:01:12 <rauch> security _updates_ don't change any packages version number, they just backport the security patches
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11:03:02 <xai> warlord: thats what we did. We just took the 'profit' value from the P/L report and used that to do it.
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11:03:28 <chris> cstim, et al.: So it sounds like another difference between the distribution models is that suse releases are more static, while fedora releases have a quite active "updates" component.
11:04:05 <chris> rauch|afk: Thanks for the explanations.
11:04:07 <xai> Thanks for the sanity check.
11:05:41 <warlord> xai: that's not what you want to do, tho.. You want to take each account and zero-ize it. Don't worry about P&L.
11:06:25 <warlord> just look at the actual account balance as of your closing date.
11:08:04 <xai> warlord: ok. I guess i could make that a split entry and duplicate it each year, adjusting the values as well..?
11:11:09 <warlord> I suppose you could make it a split entry... but I would just have 1 txn per non-zero account.
11:11:56 <xai> ok. thanks for advice..
11:12:10 <cstim> chris: yes, and the fedora has a process (or many of them) for community-driven package updates, whereas Novell/suse does not (yet) have that.
11:37:30 <cstim> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=364946 sucks. It gets more duplicates daily, and obviously nobody has an idea so far.
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11:43:14 <warlord> Too bad!
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14:11:43 <andi5> warlord: are you here?
14:16:44 <warlord> on phone...
14:16:53 <andi5> no problem
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14:21:24 <warlord> done.
14:21:32 <andi5> :)
14:22:04 <andi5> well, i plan to do some major reshuffling on my branch and would like to hear your / others opinion / objections ;)
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14:24:34 <andi5> my main intention is to separate the modules from each other.... in my mind there is a fixed set of core libraries, all libs can links against... but modules should not link against other modules (dlsym/g_module_symbol)... there are others but i begin to mix them already ;)
14:24:52 <andi5> this is the point modules could get merged / removed / created
14:26:31 <warlord> Okay......
14:27:02 <warlord> (yes, the differentiation between "shared library" and "module" isn't very clear right now)
14:27:54 <andi5> if there has been some discussion i should read first, just point me :)
14:30:10 <andi5> ok... so i raise a few Q's :)
14:30:37 <andi5> Q1: should not engine be such a core library?
14:31:01 <jsled> yes.
14:31:19 <andi5> Q2: gnome, backend-file, backend-file-utils... what about them? can we make them GncModules?
14:33:48 <jsled> Maybe, though it seems like if you're building an executable that is configured to use gnome and a file backend, why do they need to be?
14:34:03 <andi5> Info: locally i have rename gnc-business-ledger to gncmod-business-ledger... and i move gfec.[ch] from app-utils to core-utils
14:34:48 <warlord> engine should be a library. backend-file-utils needs to be a library. backend-file can (should!) be a Module.
14:36:30 <andi5> backend-file-utils needs to be a library, because? ... something else somehow depends on it?
14:36:37 <warlord> Yes
14:37:08 <andi5> but you are probably right
14:37:21 <warlord> It's used by gnome-utils and business-file backend.
14:42:29 <andi5> hm... WRT to gnome being a module: yes, right now we are configured to use gnome and we should of course continue to do that, but why not allow other gui's, like a text one (which will start-up a lot faster then) .... the current situation with gnome being a shard library is also pretty confusing to me (depending on a lot of modules...)
14:43:03 <jsled> different binary, different linkage.
14:43:16 <warlord> jsled: I'm not convinced of that.
14:43:35 <jsled> What's the advantage of being a GncModule?
14:43:50 <jsled> Or a GModule.
14:44:29 <warlord> The ability to ship without it and still allow gnucash to run (e.g. optional functionality)
14:45:50 <warlord> I'm not sure about gnome per-se. But certainly the backends, the importers, and "business" are modules.
14:48:11 <jsled> They can be, but do they need to be?
14:48:36 <warlord> Yes, I think they do.
14:48:52 <jsled> It seems like the only area that actaully uses that complexity is the OFX and HBCI stuff.
14:49:09 <warlord> And QIF. And the backneds. And business, even!
14:49:12 <jsled> We never don't build with business objects, or the file backend.
14:49:25 <jsled> Practically.
14:49:30 <warlord> Note that "build" != "ship"
14:49:54 <warlord> And the code was designed to work without it. You can leave out the business modules and gnucash still runs fine.
14:50:01 <warlord> That was a design goal.
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14:50:51 <jsled> When does build != ship?
14:51:09 <warlord> Any RPM that splits it out.
14:51:20 <warlord> c.f. gnucash-ofx or a theoretical gnucash-business RPM
14:51:34 <andi5> the same holds for gnucash-hbci
14:51:40 <warlord> right
14:51:48 <andi5> and i have seen that :)
14:52:03 <warlord> I think the underlying questions to ask are:
14:52:11 <warlord> 1) Can gnucash run without the functionality?
14:52:25 <warlord> 2) Does some other part depend on APIs in this part?
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14:52:43 <warlord> If you can answer yes to #1 and no to #2, then it should be a module.
14:52:58 <warlord> If you can answer yes to #1 and yes to #2, then perhaps you need a library AND a module.
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14:53:16 <warlord> if the answer to #1 is no, then the answer is it should be a library
14:53:22 <andi5> but what do we have module interdependencies for thn?
14:53:32 <warlord> Now... With that in mind, I think we have WAY too many libraries in the code.
14:53:52 * andi5 grabbing pencil
14:55:12 <andi5> well, first note: register-rewrite should remove the three modules in src/register, and merge src/gnome-utils and src/gnome, iirc
14:55:36 <andi5> (i mean, i think it does that)
14:55:49 <warlord> I'm not sure you can combine gnome-utils and gnome due to dependencies..
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14:56:34 <andi5> you are right... it does not due that (reports?)
14:56:41 <andi5> s,due,do,
14:57:15 <andi5> my Q: how could a reasonable module set look like?
14:57:52 <warlord> Well, I can certainly imagine core-utils, gnc-module, and engine combining together..
14:58:22 <warlord> I think "gnome UI" makes one module. "business" another. the various backends and importers yet others..
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14:59:16 <andi5> could gnome-utils be a convenience library for building gnome? or will this not work?
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14:59:30 <warlord> andi5: I think that's what it should be
14:59:35 <warlord> and 'register' should be a library.
14:59:37 <jsled> common: gnucash-generic utility functions; core: qof, engine, {core,app}-utils; gnome; report; business; ea. importer; ea. backend
15:00:09 <jsled> though register could be part of core.
15:00:23 <jsled> With the gnome-specific part in 'gnome'.
15:01:15 <jsled> the common/core distinction is more of a library than module.
15:02:17 <andi5> what does belong to core vs. gnome: (a) guile, (b) gconf
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15:03:16 <andi5> iff there is an answer :)
15:03:16 <jsled> they're both core, I think.
15:03:57 <warlord> yeah, I think guile and gconf are both core
15:04:31 <warlord> (keep in mind that I believe that there is no core "module" -- it's a library that the application links directly to, and other modules can link to as well for the Core APIs)
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15:06:08 * andi5 will have to think about that a while.... /me is slow
15:09:57 <warlord> andi5: good idea.
15:10:10 <andi5> warlord: where would you put reports?
15:12:06 <warlord> What you might want to do is enumerate every directory, figure out what functionality exists in each, the various dependencies, etc.
15:12:17 <warlord> Good question.
15:12:40 <andi5> yes, that is what i started and will continue...
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15:14:37 <warlord> andi5: you might want to merge your current work into trunk and then start a new branch.. especially if you've got "make check" working on win32!
15:14:55 <andi5> hm... maybe that is best
15:15:00 <warlord> ... before you really go shuffling code around.
15:18:08 <warlord> (honestly, I would kinda prefer that major code reshuffling wait until as close to 2.1.0 as possible)
15:18:34 <warlord> otherwise it might make merging the various development branches harder.
15:19:19 * andi5 reshuffles priorities
15:21:31 <andi5> well, i guess the first try will not work anyway ;-) .... there to many things to work on, damnit ;-)
15:22:28 <andi5> (to clarify: i could live with reshuffle-redo... could happen once all other major branches have been merged back)
15:24:08 <andi5> honestly, i would love to merge trunk changes to register-rewrite .... play with git and afterwards with the branch ... reshuf could wait then (once win32 runs the way i want it)
15:24:33 <warlord> If you want to finish the register-rewrite I think ALL of us would be happy!
15:25:07 <warlord> I'd say: 1) merge your current reshuffle work back to trunk, 2) merge trunk to register-rewrite, 3) finished r-r :)
15:25:19 <andi5> hehe ;)
15:25:44 <andi5> somewhere in between is this nasty treeview crasher (that is what i installed fc for)
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15:26:58 <warlord> Ahh, well if you can track that down, even better!
15:27:57 <andi5> warlord: may you remove my SVK:merge ids from your tree? .. i replaced SVK here, you know :)
15:28:33 <warlord> I can.. or you're welcome to do it, too.
15:29:02 <warlord> it really doesn't matter to me. ;)
15:29:23 <andi5> hehe... ok, will try to remember when i am @ msys
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15:32:26 <warlord> :)
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18:19:44 <aggrimes> Weird problem - anybody know what would cause gnucash to report a starting balance that's different than the starting balance on my bank statement when I'm reconciling?
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18:42:36 <warlord> aggrimes: a couple of potential reasons: 1) you missed a reconciliation. 2) you mis-reconciled last time. 3) you modified/deleted a reconciled transaction or somehow caused a reconciled transaction to become unreconciled.
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18:50:05 <aggrimes> In the case that it's #2 or #3, is there a way to redo the reconciliation for the previous month?
18:51:58 <foo> Ah, I'm still kind of confused. I see for account type I can set income and expense. I have a small busy.. my business account has a savings, checkings, and another savings account called transfers ... I give people the routing and account number for the last. Now, for account type... what do I set these to? I see Income and expense.. I transfer money to and from all of them for the most part
18:52:04 <foo> hm
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18:57:04 <jsled> foo: Those three are supposed to be Asset accounts; if you can't select Asset, it's probably because the[ir] parent account type is incorrect.
18:57:32 <foo> I see. Thanks jsled. They don't have parents
18:57:33 <foo> hm
18:57:34 * foo sets that
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18:58:10 <jsled> If they're top-level accounts, then they shouldn't be constrained, and you can make them asset accounts.
18:58:16 <nejucomo> Hello, I've just installed gnucash and read through the help docs, but I've confused myself by importing data from my website.
18:58:18 <jsled> foo: have you read the tutorial and concepts guide?
18:58:31 <foo> jsled: No, where is that at? I think I need to
18:58:45 <jsled> foo: Help menu
19:00:39 <jsled> foo: Also, there are predefined account trees that you can use (and extend, in the case of your Transfer account) which might make life a bit simpler; File > New > New Account Hierarchy
19:00:49 <nejucomo> When I import the .qif for my checking account, everything looks almost perfect, but then when I add the .qif for my credit card I get confused.
19:00:53 <jsled> (though you might want to try it on a new/empty data-file first...]
19:01:18 <jsled> nejucomo: it should be the same stuff, except against your {Liability:Credit Card} account.
19:01:31 <jsled> But the income and expense pieces are the same...
19:03:03 <nejucomo> jsled, Ok, I think I grok that, yet there are two transactions in credit card which are to-from "unspecified". If I change them to checking (which seems right), then checking shows more transactions than my bank website...
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19:06:29 <nejucomo> Also, the end balances of checking and credit card do not match the bank website, so I think I need to adjust the initial balance on these accounts.
19:06:42 <jsled> nejucomo: If they're credit card transactions, why do they affect the checking account?
19:06:47 <nejucomo> I saw an option for doing that when creating a new account, but when I go to the accounts tab and hit "edit" that option is gone.
19:07:01 <nejucomo> jsled, They are payments from checking to credit card.
19:07:04 <jsled> nejucomo: just create an appropriately-dated transaction for the account against "Opening Balances".
19:07:30 <nejucomo> Ah, thanks. What kind of account is opening balances?
19:07:38 <jsled> What, then are the transactions that are in the QIF file that aren't on the bank's website.
19:07:51 <jsled> Equity:Opening Balances (type=Equity).
19:07:59 <jsled> See the help, and the "Common Accounts" hierarchy.
19:08:12 <nejucomo> Maybe they are, I just need to double check things. I must be confused. I must go, but thanks for the help.
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20:48:39 <Pe1o> good evening folks
20:50:25 <Pe1o> I'm curious about two things ? 1° can one do payroll with gnucash , ( never mind the second one I just figured it out on my own)
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21:13:04 <jsled> Pelo: http://svn.gnucash.org/docs/guide/chapter14.html - "Chapter 14. Payroll"
21:13:19 <Pelo> thanks
21:17:52 <Pelo> jsled, so basicaly I have to ... program it myself ? there isn'T a payroll module
21:18:02 <Pelo> sort of I mean
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21:18:39 <jsled> Pelo: looks like.
21:18:54 <Pelo> k thanks, I'll reflect on this
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21:46:24 <foo> jsled: You were talking about accounting concepts, right?
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21:47:43 <warlord> foo: The Concepts and Tutorial Guide, yes.
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21:48:51 * foo reads the basics -> accounting concepts
21:50:28 <foo> "It is clear that it is possible to categorize your financial world into these 5 groups. For example, the cash in your bank account is an asset, your mortgage is a liability, your paycheck is income, and the cost of dinner last night is an expense."
21:50:32 <foo> Right.. I understand that..
21:50:48 <foo> But, the income goes to my bank account (asset) .. and expenses come out of there..
21:51:04 <foo> Do I need to make 3 different checking accounts, asset, income, and expenses?
21:51:04 <warlord> Right. That's called "double entry"
21:51:06 <foo> I think I'm confused
21:51:08 <foo> ahhh
21:51:10 * foo reads further
21:51:32 <warlord> foo: remember.. 1:1 mapping of real-life to gnucash.
21:51:39 <warlord> this goes for ALL types
21:54:53 <foo> When you say 1:1 .. you mean, Overview:Introduction ?
21:55:17 <warlord> What planet are you from?
21:55:25 <warlord> 1:1 .... ONE TO ONE
21:56:25 <warlord> "1:1 mapping" -> "one to one mapping"
21:56:37 <warlord> We went over this earlier..
21:58:58 <foo> Er, I just checked buffer.
21:59:13 <foo> When you were saying 1:1.. I was thinking you were refering to the help
21:59:13 <foo> heh
21:59:32 <warlord> No, then I'd say "section 1.1"
21:59:42 <warlord> or "the section on ...."
21:59:46 <warlord> or give a URL
21:59:58 <foo> er
22:00:13 <foo> Ok, so, what about 1:1 ? One to one mapping .. what are you saying?
22:00:13 <foo> hm
22:00:14 <warlord> no, that's a tv show
22:01:23 <warlord> everything in the world maps directly onto a gnucash account. Each bank account, each Liability account in the real world maps into a gnucash account.. The same is true for sources of income or types of expenses.
22:01:37 <foo> Ok, gotcha
22:01:43 <warlord> Each income source maps to an Income Account; each type of expect maps to an Expense Account.
22:01:48 <warlord> It's a 1:1 mapping.
22:03:04 <foo> Ok, so, my checking account needs to be created 3 different times, each time with 3 different account types: asset (since it's a bank account and is getting interest), income (money goes into here), and expense (when I buy parts, it comes from here) - right?
22:03:42 <warlord> Bzzzt.
22:03:56 <warlord> Go read through the whole tutorial guide.
22:04:00 <warlord> Front to back.
22:04:05 <warlord> when you're done, come back
22:04:41 <foo> Read all of the help?
22:04:55 <warlord> Well, read the whole Concepts and Tutorial Guide, yes.
22:05:07 <foo> Yup, that's all the help, it seems.
22:05:18 <foo> Hm, ok, this doesn't look so long
22:05:19 <warlord> no, there's also the "help"
22:06:48 <foo> oh, I se
22:06:49 <foo> It is different
22:08:37 <warlord> jsled really should have pointed you to www.gnucash.org to find the docs.
22:10:16 <foo> oh, I'm reading this ceoncepts and tutorial guide within the program (I have latest)
22:10:19 <foo> That is probably fine, right?
22:10:25 <warlord> yeah, should be fine.
22:11:55 * foo checks to see if his bank exports to these file types
22:12:07 <warlord> foo: dont worry about that, yet.
22:12:22 <warlord> learn about double-entry accounting.. get comfortable with that first.
22:12:42 <foo> hehe, yeah, I jumped the gun.. it's just, so, awesome :)
22:12:44 * foo continues reading
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00:00:07 <warlord> Regardless, gnucash is a big application.
00:00:20 <elb> yes, I understand all that
00:00:26 <elb> gnucash is big, gnome is huge
00:00:39 <elb> my question was, is there a way to not load the report goop I don't need, or to load it on demand
00:01:33 <warlord> No
00:01:45 <warlord> You can not load the REPORTS, but you already said that you dont have them open.
00:01:58 <warlord> That's the only "report" control you have -- whatever you leave open between runs.
00:02:07 <warlord> (fwiw, my 15/7 seconds is with two reports)
00:02:11 <elb> ok
00:02:22 <elb> yeah, I don't approach that on my Dell, either
00:02:42 <elb> I might with *no* reports
00:03:24 <elb> loading the reports infrastructure may not even be slowing down startup that much -- I'm just going by the progress messages
00:03:47 <elb> I'd love to knock down the startup if I can, because I tend to open gnucash multiple times a day to enter individual transactions
00:06:19 <warlord> Why not just leave it up?
00:07:35 <elb> because a) it's remote X11, and when I move my laptop from place to place, I have to restart it anyway, and b) I'm not the only user using it, so I have to quit it to release the lock
00:08:36 <warlord> OH, remote X! Well, THAT ALONE will slow down the startup! Have you considered VNC?
00:09:42 <elb> is it that inefficient?
00:09:44 <elb> gnucash, that is
00:10:25 <elb> Gtk+ isn't great for remote X11 (the Gtk+ guys don't seem to understand the benefits of network transparency, viz. their complete failure to comprehend the X resource database and server-side fonts), but it's not *that* bad
00:10:46 <elb> I use a lot of remote X11 apps
00:11:29 <elb> and, over a local network, X11 is generally faster than VNC *except* for startup times (due to the unfortunate chattiness of modern toolkits at startup incurring massive RTT penalties)
00:13:32 <warlord> No, remote-X is!
00:13:53 <warlord> but remote-X GTK is horribke
00:13:56 <warlord> horrible, even
00:14:26 <elb> eh, it's not that bad
00:16:47 <elb> for the record, vnc startup time was substantially similar
00:17:03 <elb> within 2-3 seconds of a startup of about 25 seconds
00:18:06 <elb> at any rate, it sounds like the answer is that there's nothing I can shut off for the day-to-day simple transaction entries, and that's a fine answer, I just thought it was worth a shot
00:18:14 <elb> good night, for now :-)
00:19:06 <warlord> Se ya
00:20:09 <zombor> im must be an idiot or something i still cant get this to work right =/
00:20:44 <warlord> The 'expense' from the vendor bill offsets the 'income' on the customer invoice.. That offset is your COGS.
00:21:05 <warlord> It still shows you having $200 of income and $150 of expense individually.
00:23:19 <foo> I am in an invoice right now.. and I set the unit price to 50, but the subtotal still says 0
00:23:22 <foo> Any ideas?
00:23:44 <warlord> how many units?
00:23:56 <warlord> and did you hit 'enter' to commit the line?
00:24:21 <warlord> Oh, and did you click in the Inv? column to attach the item to the invoice?
00:25:32 <zombor> warlord: so, i made the bill for my initial inventory (2036.05), now i have 2036.05 in my expenses. Is it correct that I want to transfer that to my Assets then?
00:26:25 <foo> warlord: unit price = 50, yes enter, invoiced? is checked
00:29:55 <foo> hm, I can't select the income account
00:30:16 <foo> I set up 3, I thought /me looks around to make sure they were saved
00:31:00 <foo> account summary shows the 3
00:31:00 <foo> hmm
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00:33:29 <warlord> zombor: like I said, gnucash doesn't track inventory.. It's pure income/expense tracking for that.. Or you could use an Assets:Inventory account instead of Expense in the vendor bill. It should let you do that.
00:34:22 <zombor> warlord: like i said, /me is an idiot...i got it now. Assets is only money
00:36:52 <zombor> thanks for the help/clarification
00:37:03 <warlord> You're welcome
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00:51:49 <foo> Any ideas? This problem is weird
00:51:58 <foo> Or maybe I'm doing something wrong, heh.
00:57:29 <warlord> foo: unit price = 50, what's the qty?
00:57:54 <warlord> as for not selecting the income account... Are you sure they are of "type income"?
00:59:45 <foo> ok, it says 50 for subtotal now
01:00:03 <foo> hm, I am trying to edit the accounts to check
01:00:36 <foo> Hm, it is A/Receiavable
01:00:41 <foo> That's probably the default.
01:01:00 <foo> warlord: Income .. meaning, that income goes to this account?
01:03:15 <warlord> No, that's NOT the default.. And it's not what you want for an Income account!
01:03:18 <foo> I'd assume that means the money that gets paid to me goes to that account
01:03:43 <foo> For example, my bank checking account ..
01:03:54 <foo> Both money goes in and out of that account for things I pay for and money that gets paid to me ..
01:03:58 <foo> Can I only have income/expense?
01:04:15 <foo> I'm probably confused
01:04:47 <warlord> Yes.. Go read the docs.
01:04:59 <warlord> ... and the wiki.
01:05:02 <warlord> It's QUITE clear.
01:09:24 <warlord> anyways, bedtime for me. good night
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01:11:11 <foo> So I need to build a heirarchy?
01:11:12 <foo> h
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09:12:08 <cstim> did you see the download numbers of the binary win32 package? https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=192
09:13:17 <cstim> already 120 downloads on the first day
09:14:18 <warlord> No, didn't look ;)
09:14:21 <warlord> But good to hear.
09:17:25 <warlord> cstim: did you see jarney1's message about -mwindows ?
09:21:49 <cstim> warlord: yes. I tried to add -mwindows to src/bin/Makefile.am but apparently it didn't change the behaviour of the gnucash-bin.exe DOS window.
09:22:45 <warlord> Huh. Did you try building all of gnucash with LDFLAGS=-mwindows?
09:23:25 <cstim> no, not yet.
09:24:05 <warlord> okay. I dont know if that would help or not.. just something to try, i guess.
09:25:37 <cstim> actually the first r15308-setup.exe on sf.net is really r15264. I accidentally renamed and uploaded an older setup.exe
09:26:02 <cstim> because the location of the resulting setup.exe had been changed by andi5 and I didn't see this change until today.
09:26:25 <warlord> OOPS!
09:26:25 <cstim> however, the user experience apparently isn't too much different.
09:28:31 <warlord> Good...
09:30:35 <cstim> and by now I've uploaded the r15309-setup.exe which is *really* r15309.
09:30:49 <warlord> :-D
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10:17:10 <rauch> hi all
10:18:19 <jsled> hello rauch
10:18:23 <rauch> just stepping bye to tell you that gnucash 2.0.4 is packaged up and available for suse 10.0 - 10.2 on ftp://rauchs-home.de/suse/ or on the mirror ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/misc/suser-crauch/
10:18:46 <jsled> awesome.
10:18:52 <rauch> it's available for both i686 and x86_64
10:20:27 <warlord> rauch: and it actually works? :)
10:20:44 <rauch> as I'm using it myself, i assume so ;)
10:20:49 <warlord> On 10.2?
10:20:54 <rauch> yes
10:21:06 <warlord> Ahh, cool.. Then maybe you can respond to the user(s) on the mailing lists? ;)
10:21:53 <rauch> hm, which one? i am subscribed to gnucash-devel and gnucash-de
10:22:04 <cstim> rauch: very cool! Thanks a lot.
10:23:00 <cstim> rauch: errors on startup on suse10.2: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=391601
10:24:46 <rauch> cstim: he compiled this one himself?
10:25:10 <warlord> rauch: i think it's on gnucash-user
10:25:30 <rauch> warlord: seems to I'll have to subscribe to another ml ;)
10:25:51 <warlord> heh
10:25:54 <warlord> thanks!
10:27:15 * cstim still isn't subscribed to -user
10:29:15 <cstim> rauch: http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2007-January/018770.html
10:29:58 <rauch> cstim: he posted this one in alt.os.linux.suse today too...
10:30:15 <rauch> I responded 15 min. ago
10:30:57 <rauch> seems to he installed somehow the rpm for 10.1 which needs .so.12
10:31:37 <rauch> he will need the new rpm for 10.2 which need .so.17
10:31:47 <chris> Hi rauch, since you're here... I'm curious, about how many packages do you package for SuSE?
10:31:51 <warlord> How did he even get the package installed?
10:32:08 <rauch> hm, he says, he _upgraded_ from 10.1...
10:32:26 <warlord> Yeah, but... RPM should've warned on that dependency!
10:32:37 <warlord> or is SuSE's upgrade system broken?
10:32:57 <rauch> yeah, should, but I don't know how this behaves on an system upgrade...
10:33:23 <rauch> warlord: http://rauchs-home.de/packages.shtml lists all my packages
10:34:05 <rauch> atm this are 10 packages for 3 versions
10:35:18 <cstim> huh. a lot of work.
10:35:41 <cstim> rauch: ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/misc/linux/suser-crauch/ currently gived a No such file or directory
10:35:51 <cstim> s/gived/gives/
10:36:02 <jsled> works for me.
10:36:10 <rauch> oups... missed a /pub
10:36:45 <jsled> Aye, I clikced on the /pub-containing link from earlier, not the one cstim posted.
10:37:06 <chris> rauch: about how many people are there who package packages for openSUSE but who don't work for Novell? (if you have any guess.)
10:37:32 <rauch> don't know exact numbers, but I think ~ 15 to 20
10:37:48 <rauch> whereas packman is the biggest group
10:38:27 <chris> And the total number of packages offered by that groups is.. ? a few hundred?
10:39:34 <rauch> i think much more
10:40:11 <rauch> packman (10.2 x86_64) are 1535 files...
10:40:12 <chris> (I'm trying to understand the openSUSE ecosystem. It's a little odd for someone used to the Redhat/Fedora distribution model.)
10:41:17 <rauch> ok, make that 1500/2, as they have detached gpg signatures
10:41:23 <chris> wow, so is that even more than the number of "official" packages? (assuming there is such a thing)
10:41:40 <chris> Oh, probably less than...
10:42:17 <rauch> tha official ones (oss only) are 4329 files, so it is much less ;)
10:42:30 <cstim> chris: The INDEX of the dvd are slightly more than 400
10:42:34 <cstim> s/400/4000
10:42:53 <chris> cstim: do you run SuSE?
10:43:45 <chris> Ok, the "unofficial" packages are approximately 1/4 the number of official packages...
10:44:16 <cstim> chris: and what's the Redhat/Fedora distribution model like?
10:44:23 <rauch> make that 1/3, as there is not only packman
10:44:26 <cstim> chris: yes, I do
10:45:08 <chris> And do the unofficial packagers have any sort of formal or semi-formal organization or is each one pretty much on their own?
10:46:08 <rauch> packman is the only team I know of, all others (like me) are on their own
10:46:24 <chris> cstim: seems to me in the recent Fedora years there's been a lot of publically-visible process involved in packaging.
10:46:27 <rauch> but almost everyone is present on opensuse-packaging ml
10:46:49 <rauch> so we assure, that not 4 or 5 people build the same package
10:46:49 <chris> "packman" is more than one person?
10:46:55 <rauch> yes
10:47:08 <chris> that sounds pretty informal.
10:47:10 <rauch> http://packman.links2linux.de/
10:48:07 <chris> Are there difficulties with interdependencies between the different packagers?
10:48:34 <rauch> sometimes there are, but normally we figure out really fast
10:48:39 <chris> (this used to be a big problem with the "unofficial" redhat/fedora repos.)
10:49:24 <rauch> I for my self am in direct contact with the packager of aqbanking etc. so we can solve things fast
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10:50:13 <chris> It seems like the "unofficial" fedora packaging ecosystem pretty much got absorbed into fedora extras, which has a fair amount of process to organize it.
10:50:41 <chris> Novell decides which packages are "official", right?
10:50:51 <rauch> suse tries something similar, but imho it will take some time 'till this will work...
10:51:12 <rauch> the only official ones are those in the release. nothing else
10:51:33 <rauch> what doesn't make it in, stays unofficial
10:51:56 <rauch> (and is maintained by us packagers)
10:52:27 <rauch> they try to establish the so called "build service"
10:52:34 <xai> What's a typical way to do a year closing in GC?
10:52:40 <chris> Is there much change from release to release in which packages are included in the release? (Does novell "adopt" or "orphan" packages often?)
10:53:05 <warlord> xai: zeroize all your Income and Expense accounts into an Equity account
10:53:35 <chris> And, do you know why GnuCash isn't "official"?
10:53:47 <rauch> normally they do version upgrades only, sometimes they drop some old dependency not needed anymore, some new packages wanted by the community come in
10:53:55 <rauch> oh, gnucash is official
10:54:08 <rauch> but they aren't up to date
10:54:15 <chris> Oh, you just package the newer versions, right?
10:54:41 <rauch> correct, as they do not do version upgrades in one release
10:55:10 <xai> warlord: ok.. Is there any easy way to do that, or is it just elbow-grease?
10:55:13 <chris> not even minor versions?
10:55:48 <warlord> xai: right now.. elbow grease.
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10:56:03 <rauch> chris: no, only in case a package has a security problem and this tree is not maintained anymore (eg. firefox 1.0)
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10:56:57 <chris> I see. Interesting.
10:56:59 <xai> warlord: ok.. someone suggested that I just make an journal entry and balance it from the year's profit.
10:57:16 <warlord> in the end that's effectively what you're doing.
10:57:22 <xai> Well, its fast and dirty, but not precision.
10:57:24 <rauch> you have to upgrade to a newer distribution or hope, that one of the packagers makes an unofficial one
10:58:12 <xai> Of course there is a difference between what my accounting calls profit and what the IRS calls profit, so it doesn't quite balance perfrectly.
10:58:18 <warlord> rauch: so 10.0 -> 10.1 -> 10.2 aren't considered "upgrades"?
10:58:50 <xai> err. s/my accounting/gnucash (as configured)
10:59:01 <chris> rauch: what's the normal time between releases?
10:59:11 <warlord> xai: All you need to do is transfer all your Income and Expense accounts balances to one Equity account.. E.g. Equity:Retained Earnings:2006
10:59:18 <chris> (or cstim)
10:59:22 <rauch> chris: 1/2 year
10:59:59 <rauch> warlord: sure, these are upgrades, everything else is an update, as you don't update the whole distribution ;)
11:01:12 <rauch> security _updates_ don't change any packages version number, they just backport the security patches
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11:03:02 <xai> warlord: thats what we did. We just took the 'profit' value from the P/L report and used that to do it.
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11:03:28 <chris> cstim, et al.: So it sounds like another difference between the distribution models is that suse releases are more static, while fedora releases have a quite active "updates" component.
11:04:05 <chris> rauch|afk: Thanks for the explanations.
11:04:07 <xai> Thanks for the sanity check.
11:05:41 <warlord> xai: that's not what you want to do, tho.. You want to take each account and zero-ize it. Don't worry about P&L.
11:06:25 <warlord> just look at the actual account balance as of your closing date.
11:08:04 <xai> warlord: ok. I guess i could make that a split entry and duplicate it each year, adjusting the values as well..?
11:11:09 <warlord> I suppose you could make it a split entry... but I would just have 1 txn per non-zero account.
11:11:56 <xai> ok. thanks for advice..
11:12:10 <cstim> chris: yes, and the fedora has a process (or many of them) for community-driven package updates, whereas Novell/suse does not (yet) have that.
11:37:30 <cstim> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=364946 sucks. It gets more duplicates daily, and obviously nobody has an idea so far.
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11:43:14 <warlord> Too bad!
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14:11:43 <andi5> warlord: are you here?
14:16:44 <warlord> on phone...
14:16:53 <andi5> no problem
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14:21:24 <warlord> done.
14:21:32 <andi5> :)
14:22:04 <andi5> well, i plan to do some major reshuffling on my branch and would like to hear your / others opinion / objections ;)
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14:24:34 <andi5> my main intention is to separate the modules from each other.... in my mind there is a fixed set of core libraries, all libs can links against... but modules should not link against other modules (dlsym/g_module_symbol)... there are others but i begin to mix them already ;)
14:24:52 <andi5> this is the point modules could get merged / removed / created
14:26:31 <warlord> Okay......
14:27:02 <warlord> (yes, the differentiation between "shared library" and "module" isn't very clear right now)
14:27:54 <andi5> if there has been some discussion i should read first, just point me :)
14:30:10 <andi5> ok... so i raise a few Q's :)
14:30:37 <andi5> Q1: should not engine be such a core library?
14:31:01 <jsled> yes.
14:31:19 <andi5> Q2: gnome, backend-file, backend-file-utils... what about them? can we make them GncModules?
14:33:48 <jsled> Maybe, though it seems like if you're building an executable that is configured to use gnome and a file backend, why do they need to be?
14:34:03 <andi5> Info: locally i have rename gnc-business-ledger to gncmod-business-ledger... and i move gfec.[ch] from app-utils to core-utils
14:34:48 <warlord> engine should be a library. backend-file-utils needs to be a library. backend-file can (should!) be a Module.
14:36:30 <andi5> backend-file-utils needs to be a library, because? ... something else somehow depends on it?
14:36:37 <warlord> Yes
14:37:08 <andi5> but you are probably right
14:37:21 <warlord> It's used by gnome-utils and business-file backend.
14:42:29 <andi5> hm... WRT to gnome being a module: yes, right now we are configured to use gnome and we should of course continue to do that, but why not allow other gui's, like a text one (which will start-up a lot faster then) .... the current situation with gnome being a shard library is also pretty confusing to me (depending on a lot of modules...)
14:43:03 <jsled> different binary, different linkage.
14:43:16 <warlord> jsled: I'm not convinced of that.
14:43:35 <jsled> What's the advantage of being a GncModule?
14:43:50 <jsled> Or a GModule.
14:44:29 <warlord> The ability to ship without it and still allow gnucash to run (e.g. optional functionality)
14:45:50 <warlord> I'm not sure about gnome per-se. But certainly the backends, the importers, and "business" are modules.
14:48:11 <jsled> They can be, but do they need to be?
14:48:36 <warlord> Yes, I think they do.
14:48:52 <jsled> It seems like the only area that actaully uses that complexity is the OFX and HBCI stuff.
14:49:09 <warlord> And QIF. And the backneds. And business, even!
14:49:12 <jsled> We never don't build with business objects, or the file backend.
14:49:25 <jsled> Practically.
14:49:30 <warlord> Note that "build" != "ship"
14:49:54 <warlord> And the code was designed to work without it. You can leave out the business modules and gnucash still runs fine.
14:50:01 <warlord> That was a design goal.
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14:50:51 <jsled> When does build != ship?
14:51:09 <warlord> Any RPM that splits it out.
14:51:20 <warlord> c.f. gnucash-ofx or a theoretical gnucash-business RPM
14:51:34 <andi5> the same holds for gnucash-hbci
14:51:40 <warlord> right
14:51:48 <andi5> and i have seen that :)
14:52:03 <warlord> I think the underlying questions to ask are:
14:52:11 <warlord> 1) Can gnucash run without the functionality?
14:52:25 <warlord> 2) Does some other part depend on APIs in this part?
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14:52:43 <warlord> If you can answer yes to #1 and no to #2, then it should be a module.
14:52:58 <warlord> If you can answer yes to #1 and yes to #2, then perhaps you need a library AND a module.
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14:53:16 <warlord> if the answer to #1 is no, then the answer is it should be a library
14:53:22 <andi5> but what do we have module interdependencies for thn?
14:53:32 <warlord> Now... With that in mind, I think we have WAY too many libraries in the code.
14:53:52 * andi5 grabbing pencil
14:55:12 <andi5> well, first note: register-rewrite should remove the three modules in src/register, and merge src/gnome-utils and src/gnome, iirc
14:55:36 <andi5> (i mean, i think it does that)
14:55:49 <warlord> I'm not sure you can combine gnome-utils and gnome due to dependencies..
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14:56:34 <andi5> you are right... it does not due that (reports?)
14:56:41 <andi5> s,due,do,
14:57:15 <andi5> my Q: how could a reasonable module set look like?
14:57:52 <warlord> Well, I can certainly imagine core-utils, gnc-module, and engine combining together..
14:58:22 <warlord> I think "gnome UI" makes one module. "business" another. the various backends and importers yet others..
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14:59:16 <andi5> could gnome-utils be a convenience library for building gnome? or will this not work?
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14:59:30 <warlord> andi5: I think that's what it should be
14:59:35 <warlord> and 'register' should be a library.
14:59:37 <jsled> common: gnucash-generic utility functions; core: qof, engine, {core,app}-utils; gnome; report; business; ea. importer; ea. backend
15:00:09 <jsled> though register could be part of core.
15:00:23 <jsled> With the gnome-specific part in 'gnome'.
15:01:15 <jsled> the common/core distinction is more of a library than module.
15:02:17 <andi5> what does belong to core vs. gnome: (a) guile, (b) gconf
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15:03:16 <andi5> iff there is an answer :)
15:03:16 <jsled> they're both core, I think.
15:03:57 <warlord> yeah, I think guile and gconf are both core
15:04:31 <warlord> (keep in mind that I believe that there is no core "module" -- it's a library that the application links directly to, and other modules can link to as well for the Core APIs)
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15:06:08 * andi5 will have to think about that a while.... /me is slow
15:09:57 <warlord> andi5: good idea.
15:10:10 <andi5> warlord: where would you put reports?
15:12:06 <warlord> What you might want to do is enumerate every directory, figure out what functionality exists in each, the various dependencies, etc.
15:12:17 <warlord> Good question.
15:12:40 <andi5> yes, that is what i started and will continue...
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15:14:37 <warlord> andi5: you might want to merge your current work into trunk and then start a new branch.. especially if you've got "make check" working on win32!
15:14:55 <andi5> hm... maybe that is best
15:15:00 <warlord> ... before you really go shuffling code around.
15:18:08 <warlord> (honestly, I would kinda prefer that major code reshuffling wait until as close to 2.1.0 as possible)
15:18:34 <warlord> otherwise it might make merging the various development branches harder.
15:19:19 * andi5 reshuffles priorities
15:21:31 <andi5> well, i guess the first try will not work anyway ;-) .... there to many things to work on, damnit ;-)
15:22:28 <andi5> (to clarify: i could live with reshuffle-redo... could happen once all other major branches have been merged back)
15:24:08 <andi5> honestly, i would love to merge trunk changes to register-rewrite .... play with git and afterwards with the branch ... reshuf could wait then (once win32 runs the way i want it)
15:24:33 <warlord> If you want to finish the register-rewrite I think ALL of us would be happy!
15:25:07 <warlord> I'd say: 1) merge your current reshuffle work back to trunk, 2) merge trunk to register-rewrite, 3) finished r-r :)
15:25:19 <andi5> hehe ;)
15:25:44 <andi5> somewhere in between is this nasty treeview crasher (that is what i installed fc for)
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15:26:58 <warlord> Ahh, well if you can track that down, even better!
15:27:57 <andi5> warlord: may you remove my SVK:merge ids from your tree? .. i replaced SVK here, you know :)
15:28:33 <warlord> I can.. or you're welcome to do it, too.
15:29:02 <warlord> it really doesn't matter to me. ;)
15:29:23 <andi5> hehe... ok, will try to remember when i am @ msys
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15:32:26 <warlord> :)
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18:19:44 <aggrimes> Weird problem - anybody know what would cause gnucash to report a starting balance that's different than the starting balance on my bank statement when I'm reconciling?
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18:42:36 <warlord> aggrimes: a couple of potential reasons: 1) you missed a reconciliation. 2) you mis-reconciled last time. 3) you modified/deleted a reconciled transaction or somehow caused a reconciled transaction to become unreconciled.
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18:50:05 <aggrimes> In the case that it's #2 or #3, is there a way to redo the reconciliation for the previous month?
18:51:58 <foo> Ah, I'm still kind of confused. I see for account type I can set income and expense. I have a small busy.. my business account has a savings, checkings, and another savings account called transfers ... I give people the routing and account number for the last. Now, for account type... what do I set these to? I see Income and expense.. I transfer money to and from all of them for the most part
18:52:04 <foo> hm
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18:57:04 <jsled> foo: Those three are supposed to be Asset accounts; if you can't select Asset, it's probably because the[ir] parent account type is incorrect.
18:57:32 <foo> I see. Thanks jsled. They don't have parents
18:57:33 <foo> hm
18:57:34 * foo sets that
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18:58:10 <jsled> If they're top-level accounts, then they shouldn't be constrained, and you can make them asset accounts.
18:58:16 <nejucomo> Hello, I've just installed gnucash and read through the help docs, but I've confused myself by importing data from my website.
18:58:18 <jsled> foo: have you read the tutorial and concepts guide?
18:58:31 <foo> jsled: No, where is that at? I think I need to
18:58:45 <jsled> foo: Help menu
19:00:39 <jsled> foo: Also, there are predefined account trees that you can use (and extend, in the case of your Transfer account) which might make life a bit simpler; File > New > New Account Hierarchy
19:00:49 <nejucomo> When I import the .qif for my checking account, everything looks almost perfect, but then when I add the .qif for my credit card I get confused.
19:00:53 <jsled> (though you might want to try it on a new/empty data-file first...]
19:01:18 <jsled> nejucomo: it should be the same stuff, except against your {Liability:Credit Card} account.
19:01:31 <jsled> But the income and expense pieces are the same...
19:03:03 <nejucomo> jsled, Ok, I think I grok that, yet there are two transactions in credit card which are to-from "unspecified". If I change them to checking (which seems right), then checking shows more transactions than my bank website...
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19:06:29 <nejucomo> Also, the end balances of checking and credit card do not match the bank website, so I think I need to adjust the initial balance on these accounts.
19:06:42 <jsled> nejucomo: If they're credit card transactions, why do they affect the checking account?
19:06:47 <nejucomo> I saw an option for doing that when creating a new account, but when I go to the accounts tab and hit "edit" that option is gone.
19:07:01 <nejucomo> jsled, They are payments from checking to credit card.
19:07:04 <jsled> nejucomo: just create an appropriately-dated transaction for the account against "Opening Balances".
19:07:30 <nejucomo> Ah, thanks. What kind of account is opening balances?
19:07:38 <jsled> What, then are the transactions that are in the QIF file that aren't on the bank's website.
19:07:51 <jsled> Equity:Opening Balances (type=Equity).
19:07:59 <jsled> See the help, and the "Common Accounts" hierarchy.
19:08:12 <nejucomo> Maybe they are, I just need to double check things. I must be confused. I must go, but thanks for the help.
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20:48:39 <Pe1o> good evening folks
20:50:25 <Pe1o> I'm curious about two things ? 1° can one do payroll with gnucash , ( never mind the second one I just figured it out on my own)
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21:13:04 <jsled> Pelo: http://svn.gnucash.org/docs/guide/chapter14.html - "Chapter 14. Payroll"
21:13:19 <Pelo> thanks
21:17:52 <Pelo> jsled, so basicaly I have to ... program it myself ? there isn'T a payroll module
21:18:02 <Pelo> sort of I mean
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21:18:39 <jsled> Pelo: looks like.
21:18:54 <Pelo> k thanks, I'll reflect on this
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21:46:24 <foo> jsled: You were talking about accounting concepts, right?
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21:47:43 <warlord> foo: The Concepts and Tutorial Guide, yes.
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21:48:51 * foo reads the basics -> accounting concepts
21:50:28 <foo> "It is clear that it is possible to categorize your financial world into these 5 groups. For example, the cash in your bank account is an asset, your mortgage is a liability, your paycheck is income, and the cost of dinner last night is an expense."
21:50:32 <foo> Right.. I understand that..
21:50:48 <foo> But, the income goes to my bank account (asset) .. and expenses come out of there..
21:51:04 <foo> Do I need to make 3 different checking accounts, asset, income, and expenses?
21:51:04 <warlord> Right. That's called "double entry"
21:51:06 <foo> I think I'm confused
21:51:08 <foo> ahhh
21:51:10 * foo reads further
21:51:32 <warlord> foo: remember.. 1:1 mapping of real-life to gnucash.
21:51:39 <warlord> this goes for ALL types
21:54:53 <foo> When you say 1:1 .. you mean, Overview:Introduction ?
21:55:17 <warlord> What planet are you from?
21:55:25 <warlord> 1:1 .... ONE TO ONE
21:56:25 <warlord> "1:1 mapping" -> "one to one mapping"
21:56:37 <warlord> We went over this earlier..
21:58:58 <foo> Er, I just checked buffer.
21:59:13 <foo> When you were saying 1:1.. I was thinking you were refering to the help
21:59:13 <foo> heh
21:59:32 <warlord> No, then I'd say "section 1.1"
21:59:42 <warlord> or "the section on ...."
21:59:46 <warlord> or give a URL
21:59:58 <foo> er
22:00:13 <foo> Ok, so, what about 1:1 ? One to one mapping .. what are you saying?
22:00:13 <foo> hm
22:00:14 <warlord> no, that's a tv show
22:01:23 <warlord> everything in the world maps directly onto a gnucash account. Each bank account, each Liability account in the real world maps into a gnucash account.. The same is true for sources of income or types of expenses.
22:01:37 <foo> Ok, gotcha
22:01:43 <warlord> Each income source maps to an Income Account; each type of expect maps to an Expense Account.
22:01:48 <warlord> It's a 1:1 mapping.
22:03:04 <foo> Ok, so, my checking account needs to be created 3 different times, each time with 3 different account types: asset (since it's a bank account and is getting interest), income (money goes into here), and expense (when I buy parts, it comes from here) - right?
22:03:42 <warlord> Bzzzt.
22:03:56 <warlord> Go read through the whole tutorial guide.
22:04:00 <warlord> Front to back.
22:04:05 <warlord> when you're done, come back
22:04:41 <foo> Read all of the help?
22:04:55 <warlord> Well, read the whole Concepts and Tutorial Guide, yes.
22:05:07 <foo> Yup, that's all the help, it seems.
22:05:18 <foo> Hm, ok, this doesn't look so long
22:05:19 <warlord> no, there's also the "help"
22:06:48 <foo> oh, I se
22:06:49 <foo> It is different
22:08:37 <warlord> jsled really should have pointed you to www.gnucash.org to find the docs.
22:10:16 <foo> oh, I'm reading this ceoncepts and tutorial guide within the program (I have latest)
22:10:19 <foo> That is probably fine, right?
22:10:25 <warlord> yeah, should be fine.
22:11:55 * foo checks to see if his bank exports to these file types
22:12:07 <warlord> foo: dont worry about that, yet.
22:12:22 <warlord> learn about double-entry accounting.. get comfortable with that first.
22:12:42 <foo> hehe, yeah, I jumped the gun.. it's just, so, awesome :)
22:12:44 * foo continues reading
22:16:49 *** aggrimes has quit IRC