2007-01-03 GnuCash IRC logs

00:02:04 <warlord> okay, bedtime
00:02:06 *** warlord is now known as warlord-afk
00:02:09 <warlord-afk> bye all
00:03:06 <foo> night warlord-afk
00:18:34 <hampton> night warlord-afk
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03:39:58 <gncbot> cstim: Sent 13 hours and 50 minutes ago: <warlord> the problem was with printf() in the test. It's been fixed as of r15303. See http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=390498#c3
03:40:19 <cstim> warlord: cool. Thanks a lot, also for the Makefile.am fix.
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07:51:46 * cstim is #15 bug closer in bugzilla this week...
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08:48:36 <warlord> cstim: you're welcome.
08:48:36 <gncbot> warlord: Sent 5 hours and 3 minutes ago: <andi5> yes, that seems that do the trick (r15304) ... i will test on windows again this evening (but that should not differ from tests run on your computer)
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11:05:48 <cstim> hi hampton
11:06:19 <hampton> Hi cstim
11:11:40 <elb> what, precisely, does [off] signify?
11:12:01 <cstim> elb: those sentences won't appear on http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2007-01-03.html
11:12:13 <elb> interesting
11:12:27 <cstim> elb: [off] = off-the-record, or something like that.
11:12:44 <elb> or offtopic ;-)
11:12:58 <jsled> aye. both! :)
11:13:34 <cstim> woohoo! /me just started gnucash from the setup.exe installer, and everything works (on a first glance)!
11:14:07 <cstim> even with text reports
11:14:20 <cstim> and goffice graphical reports
11:14:22 <cstim> all on win32, that is
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11:17:36 <cstim> andi5: woohoooo!
11:17:41 <andi5> i just read it ;)
11:17:45 <cstim> it's up and running!
11:18:20 <andi5> cstim: did you run "make check"?
11:18:27 <cstim> someone with 27MB of web space around?
11:18:39 <cstim> make check will still fail in src/engine. No changes there.
11:18:40 <andi5> cstim: yeah, check the wiki (i have not tried it)
11:18:57 <jsled> cstim: sourceforge? :)
11:19:03 <andi5> ah, ok... it should also fail in backend/file and app-utils
11:20:39 <cstim> oh, indeed I have the necessary priviledges.
11:21:02 <cstim> Are you fine with me uploading the win32 setup.exe under "gnucash (unstable)" version "2.0.99" and the SVN rev in the filename?
11:21:18 <andi5> this was for jsled, right?
11:21:35 <jsled> Not for me, no.
11:21:36 <cstim> yes. jsled?
11:22:02 <cstim> jsled: I mean, was that serious with using sourceforge?
11:22:03 <jsled> Oh, not my call. That all sounds fine, though.
11:22:28 <jsled> I think so. They do provide download space for projects like ours, we already have a presence there, ...
11:23:40 <cstim> ok, preparing upload...
11:26:37 <andi5> jsled: i wonder whether we want to put a link to the logs into the topic, what do you think?
11:27:54 *** jsled changes topic to " Welcome! Don't meta-ask, ASK and WAIT. 2.0.4 released. FAQ: <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ>. This is a publically-logged channel: http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/"
11:28:41 <andi5> hey, thanks!... btw, i have used svn.gnucash.org before, there are just too many aliases ;-)
11:28:47 *** jsled changes topic to " Welcome! Don't meta-ask, ASK and WAIT. 2.0.4 released. FAQ: <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ>. This is a *publically-logged* channel, <http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/>"
11:29:36 <jsled> Yeah. I wanted to broach the URL question on -devel before putting it out there. I also need to add a link to the lists.gnucash.org index page so the logs get crawled.
11:30:25 <cstim> there you are: https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=192
11:30:29 <cstim> under "gnucash (unstable)"
11:30:52 * andi5 is very interested in the download statistics...
11:30:56 <andi5> cstim: do you plan to announce that?
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11:31:12 <cstim> not yet
11:31:29 <cstim> I'd like to receive some feedback about the installer, first.
11:31:34 <cstim> maybe in 1-2 weeks.
11:32:11 <andi5> hm... who should give feedback? i guess you will want to put it on the wiki then at least?
11:32:26 <cstim> yes, I'll do that
11:32:37 <andi5> ok, fine :)
11:37:45 <cstim> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Windows#Q:_Where_is_the_binary.3F
11:41:32 <cstim> well, maybe we can announce it on -devel.
11:42:00 <warlord> cstim: W00t!
11:42:23 <andi5> *g* ... it has worked for hfelton and me back in 2006 :-P
11:43:51 <warlord> So now I'd like to figure out why the "make check" tests fail on win32.
11:43:58 <warlord> like, why does test-numeric fail?
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11:50:03 <cstim> see ya
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11:50:10 <andi5> ciao cstim
11:51:26 <warlord> see ya cstim_away
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11:51:46 <cstim_away> I propose to start planning for a new stable release series in the next 3-4 months, because by then we'll have SVN-trunk running stable on windows
11:52:19 <cstim_away> and announcing "we are running on windows as well" will be an extremely interesting news.
11:52:37 <cstim_away> ok, but we're not in a hurry.
11:52:44 * cstim_away hurries out of the office
11:52:57 <andi5> if we could also say "we have a new db backend", this would even more rock :)
11:53:17 <andi5> <-- rock <--
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11:53:46 <elb> is there something wrong with the xml backend?
11:54:06 <elb> I haven't noticed any trouble with it, generally -- it takes a bit to load and save, but general operation seems fine
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11:55:09 <jsled> elb: the XML itself is a bit broken, in usage of namespaces. But, no, it's generally fine.
11:55:50 <elb> the only quibble I have with it wouldn't be fixed by a database backend :-)
11:56:11 <elb> and that's that compressed, it doesn't lend itself well to revision control, and uncompressed it's ginormous
11:57:25 <warlord> the major issue with the XML backend is that XML isn't a good "database" format.. It's a "File" format. Whereas we really want a "database" because the dataset is constantly growing.
11:57:38 <warlord> For example, you can't do "save on every commit" in XML.
11:58:09 <hampton> elb: Why not? Its easy to dump a database to a file.
11:58:45 <hampton> You can then put the file into revision control. Sure, its two steps instead of one, but you could automate it via cron.
11:58:51 <elb> hampton: yes, but that's an extra step -- same as uncompressing the xml would be
11:59:01 <elb> but I don't want it automated via cron, I want it automated per-save or whatever
11:59:21 <elb> if I make a ton of changes today, and some of them are bad, I don't want to roll back to *yesterday*
11:59:54 <elb> warlord: right, I totally understand that
12:00:08 <elb> XML is for serialization, not working data
12:00:50 <warlord> Exactly, which is why we want a SQL backend to "replace" the XML backend.
12:00:54 <andi5> elb: but i guess everything but "roll back to ${date}" is very suboptimal, is not it?
12:01:29 <elb> by the way, while gnucash works fine with untrusted (ssh) X11 forwarding, it's *really* slow -- I'm not sure if that's a gtk+ or gnucash problem, though
12:02:56 <elb> I solved the problem by switching to trusted forwarding (in fact, I hadn't intentionally been using untrusted forwarding, it was my wife's computer and she was complaining about how unusably slow gnucash was, and I looked and she didn't have trusted forwarding turned on for our local machines), but you all might want to be aware :-)
12:03:29 <elb> andi5: I'd rather have selective roll-back to *commit*
12:04:05 <elb> as it is now, I just don't put my gnucash stuff in a vcs, and I use regular system backups -- so I have more like roll back to date
12:05:08 <andi5> hm... some rollback feature would be fantastic... :)
12:05:21 <warlord> I dont know if Phil is working on Rollback.
12:05:29 <warlord> (or how hard it would be to do)
12:09:25 <jsled> Sounds really hard.
12:10:36 <jsled> Well, I mean, you could structure the tables to make it easy... basically reify the DB's transaction log in the app data model...
12:10:42 <jsled> But suck.
12:11:20 <jsled> I guess one could keep the "normal" data model, with a separate log-style table to allow rollback.
12:12:16 <jsled> But then there's two things, not one, so there's possible inconsistency; let alone you might have to record a crazy amount of data to support the rollbacks.
12:12:39 <jsled> Anyways, I'm waving my hands so hard I'll be able to fly down to the store at this rate. :) biaw.
12:13:24 <warlord> My personal feeling is that rollbacks should be easy with a session (like "QOF Rollback"), but I'm okay with making it harder between sessions.. Once you shutdown and restart gnucash I think it's okay to 'lose' the full rollback history.
12:23:40 <elb> that sounds fair
12:24:26 <warlord> Basically, gnucash should suppose "Undo/Redo", for perhaps the last N (N==100?) operations.
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13:30:34 <warlord2> @op
13:30:34 <gncbot> warlord2: Error: You don't have the #gnucash,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
13:30:51 *** hampton sets mode: +o warlord2
13:31:27 <warlord2> @op
13:31:28 *** gncbot sets mode: +o warlord2
13:31:32 <warlord2> There we go.
13:32:26 <hampton> If that was a test I may have messed up your results.
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13:35:22 <warlord2> It was a test, but that's okay. you didn't mess it up.
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16:42:32 <dwery> hello. maybe a stupid question, but haven't found anything related in the FAQs. Where do I store the VAT ID of customers/suppliers?
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16:57:10 <warlord> dwery: anywhere you want. maybe address line #4?
16:57:45 <dwery> d'oh. I thought there was something more programmatic
16:58:03 <dwery> I just noticed there's no zip, city, state and country too
16:58:29 <warlord> no, it's all freeform.
16:59:12 <warlord> (each locale wants slight;y different inputs, so i just left it open)
16:59:14 <dwery> that's bad when you need to do thing likes mailings, where you have to sort by zip code, or sending VAT ID list to the authorities
16:59:35 <warlord> gnucash does do mailings.
16:59:51 <jsled> (doesn't?)
16:59:54 <dwery> yep, but one needs to be consistent in using the same field for the zip
17:00:06 <dwery> (or anything else)
17:00:09 <warlord> er.. yeah. doesn't do mailings.
17:00:28 <warlord> nor does it have a report to print a customer list, either..
17:00:32 <dwery> gnucash not, but could be done using the functions to access the database
17:00:35 <warlord> so.. there's nothing to sort.. so not an issue.
17:00:45 <dwery> if there's a field to work on.
17:00:47 <warlord> there is no "database".
17:00:53 <warlord> it's an XML file ;)
17:01:02 <dwery> yep. but someone told me that is going to change :)
17:01:03 <warlord> (we're hoping to fix that)
17:01:51 <warlord> Anyways..... changing that now would be... challenging.
17:02:04 <dwery> can't simply more fields be added?
17:02:22 <warlord> nope. that would be an incompatible data format change, and chris would yell.
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17:02:48 <dwery> why incompatible? I've always been told xml is extensible :-D
17:03:16 <jsled> the format's extensible. Too bad code isn't.
17:03:28 <jsled> (well, deployed code, that is)
17:08:35 <warlord> dwery: what jsled said.
17:08:45 <dwery> understood.
17:08:49 <dwery> :(
17:23:56 <warlord> The GOOD news is that we could put the information into the GncAddress KVP Slots... So we COULD do it in a "compatible" way..
17:26:23 <warlord> er... maybe...
17:27:14 <warlord> okay, the code, as written, will ignore the kvp frame. so we could do it in a data-lossy way; if you opened your data file in an older version then the information would get lost.
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17:29:31 <dwery> interesting. I'll have to give a look to this KVP thingy
17:30:20 <warlord> KVP == Key-Value Pair. It's basically like a filesystem directory hierarchy where the "key' is the dentry, and the Value is the inode.
17:31:58 <dwery> ok, got it.
17:32:14 <dwery> so a bunch of keys may be defined
17:32:54 <warlord> Yep.
17:33:02 <dwery> may I suggest: qw( vatid city state country zip )
17:33:27 <jsled> qw's some perl-ism ... what does it mean?
17:34:05 <warlord> well.. I'd put them into a 'subdir', so I'd propose extended-addr/{taxid, city, state, county, country, zip}
17:34:10 <warlord> jsled: it means "quote"
17:36:10 <jsled> non-interpolated quoted word list, I see.
17:36:22 <jsled> But why use a kvp frame at all?
17:36:32 <warlord> backwards-compatibility
17:38:03 <jsled> warlord: oh, because our xml parser will complain about tags it doesn't recognize?
17:38:10 <warlord> Yeah
17:38:41 <warlord> .. or it wont resave them, so unrecognized tags are dropped on the floor instead of preserved.
17:39:24 <warlord> (in the cases where gnucash doesn't complain)
17:42:50 <jsled> Dropping unrecognized tags is probably fine, though.
17:43:12 <warlord> except that it'll lose data.. So if you go back and forward you'll have lost data.
17:43:35 <jsled> So? It's better than using a KVP frame.
17:43:43 <warlord> why?
17:43:50 <warlord> KVP frames are lossless.
17:44:08 <jsled> Well, that's not quite fair.
17:44:12 <jsled> (my statement, that is)
17:44:18 <warlord> LOL.
17:44:36 <warlord> I hate KVP Frames as much as the next guy.. I think I'd rather we use GObject Parameters..
17:50:13 <jsled> aye. my reaction is more "kvp frames suck, let's not use them". But I guess they do have the advantage that the parser will already not break on them, *and* retain them.
17:50:35 * jsled sighs
17:56:17 <warlord> Yeah...
17:59:18 <warlord> Now, we can still make Getters/Setters (ala xaccTrans{Get,Set}Notes)
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23:40:28 <zombor> can anyone help me out in setting up or pointing me in the right direction to help myself in setting up a business account? i read all the docs, but am having trouble with my situation
23:43:48 <warlord> ask your questions.
23:44:31 <zombor> well i have an online store with inventory i buy from and sell to people
23:44:42 <zombor> so i set up a Current Assets: inventory
23:44:52 <zombor> which i have the total worth of my product
23:45:26 <warlord> Okay.. Keep in mind that GnuCash doesn't really keep TRACK of inventory, but will help you account for its value.
23:45:34 <zombor> yes
23:45:36 <zombor> thats fine
23:45:51 <zombor> my actual inventory items are in the database
23:46:07 <zombor> so i tried to make a test transaction that I sold something
23:46:24 <zombor> so i made a customer, and an invoice
23:47:06 <zombor> i choose the income account, and describe what the items were
23:47:35 <zombor> so i get the transaction in accounts receivable, but how can i deduct my cost from the inventory account?
23:48:14 <zombor> i had $200 in sales, but it shows $200 in profit at the bottom, when i should really be $30 or something
23:48:30 <zombor> since my cost would be 170 in that case
23:49:11 <warlord> You have to manually account for COGS
23:50:13 <warlord> The way it's set up is that you'd use a Vendor Bill to account for the purchase of inventory, and then map that to a Customer Invoice when you sell it.. Then you'd have offsetting Income and Expense accounts.
23:50:28 <warlord> (that's just how it's implemented right now)
23:50:52 <elb> if the purchase of those items had been in your database (instead of, presumably, them being transferred in as an opening balance), it would be correct(er)
23:51:20 <zombor> yes, i have everything as an opening balance right now
23:52:17 <zombor> should i have all my initial inventory as a Vendor Bill then?
23:52:20 <warlord> Ahh. Yeah, that's why it's not really coming out right.
23:52:28 <warlord> Umm.. Maybe?
23:52:33 <warlord> IANAA
23:52:38 <elb> Is there a way to not load all of the gnucash modules (or whatever you would call them) at startup? Reports take >50% of my startup time (judging by the progress text on the splash screen) and I virtually never use them -- I'd rather load them during the few runs I need them, than wait for them every time.
23:53:02 <zombor> hm ok ill try it out with Bills then
23:53:21 <elb> (I'm running gnucash on a PIII/550MHz, and startup takes a good 30 seconds)
23:54:39 <warlord> elb: close them before you shutdown.
23:54:57 <warlord> elb: um, get a machine from this century!
23:56:01 <elb> there are no open reports, and never are
23:56:11 <warlord> startup for me takes 15 seconds the first time, and only 7 seconds the second time.
23:56:17 <elb> and that machine runs just fine for everything I use it for -- except anything claiming to be part of gnome ;-)
23:56:38 <warlord> elb: That's because you dont have the gnome libraried in core.
23:56:41 <warlord> How much RAM do you have?
23:56:59 <elb> ~500MB
23:57:07 <elb> gnucash should be in core
23:57:15 <elb> there's not enough else going on on that machine to push it up
23:57:18 <elb> push it out, rather
23:57:26 <elb> if I start gnucash, quit it, and restart it, it still takes forever
23:57:41 <elb> it takes like 12 seconds to start on my 2GHz Pentium M :-P
23:57:50 <elb> we'll talk about machines "from this century" when that is no longer the case :-P
23:58:40 <zombor> mine takes ~5-7 seconds =/
23:58:43 <warlord> Like I said 2.0.4 takes 15 seconds the first time, and then 7 seconds a second time..
23:58:52 <warlord> This is on my 2-year-old Thinkpad
23:59:11 <warlord> 1.8GHz Pentium M
23:59:16 <elb> your 2-year-old Thinkpad is faster than my 18-month-old Dell, then
23:59:48 <warlord> Also, 2.0 is MUCH faster starting up than 1.8 was..
23:59:57 <warlord> And we're working on improvements still.
00:02:04 <warlord> okay, bedtime
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00:02:09 <warlord-afk> bye all
00:03:06 <foo> night warlord-afk
00:18:34 <hampton> night warlord-afk
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03:39:58 <gncbot> cstim: Sent 13 hours and 50 minutes ago: <warlord> the problem was with printf() in the test. It's been fixed as of r15303. See http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=390498#c3
03:40:19 <cstim> warlord: cool. Thanks a lot, also for the Makefile.am fix.
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07:51:46 * cstim is #15 bug closer in bugzilla this week...
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08:48:36 <warlord> cstim: you're welcome.
08:48:36 <gncbot> warlord: Sent 5 hours and 3 minutes ago: <andi5> yes, that seems that do the trick (r15304) ... i will test on windows again this evening (but that should not differ from tests run on your computer)
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11:05:48 <cstim> hi hampton
11:06:19 <hampton> Hi cstim
11:11:40 <elb> what, precisely, does [off] signify?
11:12:01 <cstim> elb: those sentences won't appear on http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2007-01-03.html
11:12:13 <elb> interesting
11:12:27 <cstim> elb: [off] = off-the-record, or something like that.
11:12:44 <elb> or offtopic ;-)
11:12:58 <jsled> aye. both! :)
11:13:34 <cstim> woohoo! /me just started gnucash from the setup.exe installer, and everything works (on a first glance)!
11:14:07 <cstim> even with text reports
11:14:20 <cstim> and goffice graphical reports
11:14:22 <cstim> all on win32, that is
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11:17:36 <cstim> andi5: woohoooo!
11:17:41 <andi5> i just read it ;)
11:17:45 <cstim> it's up and running!
11:18:20 <andi5> cstim: did you run "make check"?
11:18:27 <cstim> someone with 27MB of web space around?
11:18:39 <cstim> make check will still fail in src/engine. No changes there.
11:18:40 <andi5> cstim: yeah, check the wiki (i have not tried it)
11:18:57 <jsled> cstim: sourceforge? :)
11:19:03 <andi5> ah, ok... it should also fail in backend/file and app-utils
11:20:39 <cstim> oh, indeed I have the necessary priviledges.
11:21:02 <cstim> Are you fine with me uploading the win32 setup.exe under "gnucash (unstable)" version "2.0.99" and the SVN rev in the filename?
11:21:18 <andi5> this was for jsled, right?
11:21:35 <jsled> Not for me, no.
11:21:36 <cstim> yes. jsled?
11:22:02 <cstim> jsled: I mean, was that serious with using sourceforge?
11:22:03 <jsled> Oh, not my call. That all sounds fine, though.
11:22:28 <jsled> I think so. They do provide download space for projects like ours, we already have a presence there, ...
11:23:40 <cstim> ok, preparing upload...
11:26:37 <andi5> jsled: i wonder whether we want to put a link to the logs into the topic, what do you think?
11:27:54 *** jsled changes topic to " Welcome! Don't meta-ask, ASK and WAIT. 2.0.4 released. FAQ: <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ>. This is a publically-logged channel: http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/"
11:28:41 <andi5> hey, thanks!... btw, i have used svn.gnucash.org before, there are just too many aliases ;-)
11:28:47 *** jsled changes topic to " Welcome! Don't meta-ask, ASK and WAIT. 2.0.4 released. FAQ: <http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ>. This is a *publically-logged* channel, <http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/>"
11:29:36 <jsled> Yeah. I wanted to broach the URL question on -devel before putting it out there. I also need to add a link to the lists.gnucash.org index page so the logs get crawled.
11:30:25 <cstim> there you are: https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=192
11:30:29 <cstim> under "gnucash (unstable)"
11:30:52 * andi5 is very interested in the download statistics...
11:30:56 <andi5> cstim: do you plan to announce that?
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11:31:12 <cstim> not yet
11:31:29 <cstim> I'd like to receive some feedback about the installer, first.
11:31:34 <cstim> maybe in 1-2 weeks.
11:32:11 <andi5> hm... who should give feedback? i guess you will want to put it on the wiki then at least?
11:32:26 <cstim> yes, I'll do that
11:32:37 <andi5> ok, fine :)
11:37:45 <cstim> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Windows#Q:_Where_is_the_binary.3F
11:41:32 <cstim> well, maybe we can announce it on -devel.
11:42:00 <warlord> cstim: W00t!
11:42:23 <andi5> *g* ... it has worked for hfelton and me back in 2006 :-P
11:43:51 <warlord> So now I'd like to figure out why the "make check" tests fail on win32.
11:43:58 <warlord> like, why does test-numeric fail?
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11:50:03 <cstim> see ya
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11:50:10 <andi5> ciao cstim
11:51:26 <warlord> see ya cstim_away
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11:51:46 <cstim_away> I propose to start planning for a new stable release series in the next 3-4 months, because by then we'll have SVN-trunk running stable on windows
11:52:19 <cstim_away> and announcing "we are running on windows as well" will be an extremely interesting news.
11:52:37 <cstim_away> ok, but we're not in a hurry.
11:52:44 * cstim_away hurries out of the office
11:52:57 <andi5> if we could also say "we have a new db backend", this would even more rock :)
11:53:17 <andi5> <-- rock <--
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11:53:46 <elb> is there something wrong with the xml backend?
11:54:06 <elb> I haven't noticed any trouble with it, generally -- it takes a bit to load and save, but general operation seems fine
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11:55:09 <jsled> elb: the XML itself is a bit broken, in usage of namespaces. But, no, it's generally fine.
11:55:50 <elb> the only quibble I have with it wouldn't be fixed by a database backend :-)
11:56:11 <elb> and that's that compressed, it doesn't lend itself well to revision control, and uncompressed it's ginormous
11:57:25 <warlord> the major issue with the XML backend is that XML isn't a good "database" format.. It's a "File" format. Whereas we really want a "database" because the dataset is constantly growing.
11:57:38 <warlord> For example, you can't do "save on every commit" in XML.
11:58:09 <hampton> elb: Why not? Its easy to dump a database to a file.
11:58:45 <hampton> You can then put the file into revision control. Sure, its two steps instead of one, but you could automate it via cron.
11:58:51 <elb> hampton: yes, but that's an extra step -- same as uncompressing the xml would be
11:59:01 <elb> but I don't want it automated via cron, I want it automated per-save or whatever
11:59:21 <elb> if I make a ton of changes today, and some of them are bad, I don't want to roll back to *yesterday*
11:59:54 <elb> warlord: right, I totally understand that
12:00:08 <elb> XML is for serialization, not working data
12:00:50 <warlord> Exactly, which is why we want a SQL backend to "replace" the XML backend.
12:00:54 <andi5> elb: but i guess everything but "roll back to ${date}" is very suboptimal, is not it?
12:01:29 <elb> by the way, while gnucash works fine with untrusted (ssh) X11 forwarding, it's *really* slow -- I'm not sure if that's a gtk+ or gnucash problem, though
12:02:56 <elb> I solved the problem by switching to trusted forwarding (in fact, I hadn't intentionally been using untrusted forwarding, it was my wife's computer and she was complaining about how unusably slow gnucash was, and I looked and she didn't have trusted forwarding turned on for our local machines), but you all might want to be aware :-)
12:03:29 <elb> andi5: I'd rather have selective roll-back to *commit*
12:04:05 <elb> as it is now, I just don't put my gnucash stuff in a vcs, and I use regular system backups -- so I have more like roll back to date
12:05:08 <andi5> hm... some rollback feature would be fantastic... :)
12:05:21 <warlord> I dont know if Phil is working on Rollback.
12:05:29 <warlord> (or how hard it would be to do)
12:09:25 <jsled> Sounds really hard.
12:10:36 <jsled> Well, I mean, you could structure the tables to make it easy... basically reify the DB's transaction log in the app data model...
12:10:42 <jsled> But suck.
12:11:20 <jsled> I guess one could keep the "normal" data model, with a separate log-style table to allow rollback.
12:12:16 <jsled> But then there's two things, not one, so there's possible inconsistency; let alone you might have to record a crazy amount of data to support the rollbacks.
12:12:39 <jsled> Anyways, I'm waving my hands so hard I'll be able to fly down to the store at this rate. :) biaw.
12:13:24 <warlord> My personal feeling is that rollbacks should be easy with a session (like "QOF Rollback"), but I'm okay with making it harder between sessions.. Once you shutdown and restart gnucash I think it's okay to 'lose' the full rollback history.
12:23:40 <elb> that sounds fair
12:24:26 <warlord> Basically, gnucash should suppose "Undo/Redo", for perhaps the last N (N==100?) operations.
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13:30:34 <warlord2> @op
13:30:34 <gncbot> warlord2: Error: You don't have the #gnucash,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
13:30:51 *** hampton sets mode: +o warlord2
13:31:27 <warlord2> @op
13:31:28 *** gncbot sets mode: +o warlord2
13:31:32 <warlord2> There we go.
13:32:26 <hampton> If that was a test I may have messed up your results.
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13:35:22 <warlord2> It was a test, but that's okay. you didn't mess it up.
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16:42:32 <dwery> hello. maybe a stupid question, but haven't found anything related in the FAQs. Where do I store the VAT ID of customers/suppliers?
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16:57:10 <warlord> dwery: anywhere you want. maybe address line #4?
16:57:45 <dwery> d'oh. I thought there was something more programmatic
16:58:03 <dwery> I just noticed there's no zip, city, state and country too
16:58:29 <warlord> no, it's all freeform.
16:59:12 <warlord> (each locale wants slight;y different inputs, so i just left it open)
16:59:14 <dwery> that's bad when you need to do thing likes mailings, where you have to sort by zip code, or sending VAT ID list to the authorities
16:59:35 <warlord> gnucash does do mailings.
16:59:51 <jsled> (doesn't?)
16:59:54 <dwery> yep, but one needs to be consistent in using the same field for the zip
17:00:06 <dwery> (or anything else)
17:00:09 <warlord> er.. yeah. doesn't do mailings.
17:00:28 <warlord> nor does it have a report to print a customer list, either..
17:00:32 <dwery> gnucash not, but could be done using the functions to access the database
17:00:35 <warlord> so.. there's nothing to sort.. so not an issue.
17:00:45 <dwery> if there's a field to work on.
17:00:47 <warlord> there is no "database".
17:00:53 <warlord> it's an XML file ;)
17:01:02 <dwery> yep. but someone told me that is going to change :)
17:01:03 <warlord> (we're hoping to fix that)
17:01:51 <warlord> Anyways..... changing that now would be... challenging.
17:02:04 <dwery> can't simply more fields be added?
17:02:22 <warlord> nope. that would be an incompatible data format change, and chris would yell.
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17:02:48 <dwery> why incompatible? I've always been told xml is extensible :-D
17:03:16 <jsled> the format's extensible. Too bad code isn't.
17:03:28 <jsled> (well, deployed code, that is)
17:08:35 <warlord> dwery: what jsled said.
17:08:45 <dwery> understood.
17:08:49 <dwery> :(
17:23:56 <warlord> The GOOD news is that we could put the information into the GncAddress KVP Slots... So we COULD do it in a "compatible" way..
17:26:23 <warlord> er... maybe...
17:27:14 <warlord> okay, the code, as written, will ignore the kvp frame. so we could do it in a data-lossy way; if you opened your data file in an older version then the information would get lost.
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17:29:31 <dwery> interesting. I'll have to give a look to this KVP thingy
17:30:20 <warlord> KVP == Key-Value Pair. It's basically like a filesystem directory hierarchy where the "key' is the dentry, and the Value is the inode.
17:31:58 <dwery> ok, got it.
17:32:14 <dwery> so a bunch of keys may be defined
17:32:54 <warlord> Yep.
17:33:02 <dwery> may I suggest: qw( vatid city state country zip )
17:33:27 <jsled> qw's some perl-ism ... what does it mean?
17:34:05 <warlord> well.. I'd put them into a 'subdir', so I'd propose extended-addr/{taxid, city, state, county, country, zip}
17:34:10 <warlord> jsled: it means "quote"
17:36:10 <jsled> non-interpolated quoted word list, I see.
17:36:22 <jsled> But why use a kvp frame at all?
17:36:32 <warlord> backwards-compatibility
17:38:03 <jsled> warlord: oh, because our xml parser will complain about tags it doesn't recognize?
17:38:10 <warlord> Yeah
17:38:41 <warlord> .. or it wont resave them, so unrecognized tags are dropped on the floor instead of preserved.
17:39:24 <warlord> (in the cases where gnucash doesn't complain)
17:42:50 <jsled> Dropping unrecognized tags is probably fine, though.
17:43:12 <warlord> except that it'll lose data.. So if you go back and forward you'll have lost data.
17:43:35 <jsled> So? It's better than using a KVP frame.
17:43:43 <warlord> why?
17:43:50 <warlord> KVP frames are lossless.
17:44:08 <jsled> Well, that's not quite fair.
17:44:12 <jsled> (my statement, that is)
17:44:18 <warlord> LOL.
17:44:36 <warlord> I hate KVP Frames as much as the next guy.. I think I'd rather we use GObject Parameters..
17:50:13 <jsled> aye. my reaction is more "kvp frames suck, let's not use them". But I guess they do have the advantage that the parser will already not break on them, *and* retain them.
17:50:35 * jsled sighs
17:56:17 <warlord> Yeah...
17:59:18 <warlord> Now, we can still make Getters/Setters (ala xaccTrans{Get,Set}Notes)
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23:40:28 <zombor> can anyone help me out in setting up or pointing me in the right direction to help myself in setting up a business account? i read all the docs, but am having trouble with my situation
23:43:48 <warlord> ask your questions.
23:44:31 <zombor> well i have an online store with inventory i buy from and sell to people
23:44:42 <zombor> so i set up a Current Assets: inventory
23:44:52 <zombor> which i have the total worth of my product
23:45:26 <warlord> Okay.. Keep in mind that GnuCash doesn't really keep TRACK of inventory, but will help you account for its value.
23:45:34 <zombor> yes
23:45:36 <zombor> thats fine
23:45:51 <zombor> my actual inventory items are in the database
23:46:07 <zombor> so i tried to make a test transaction that I sold something
23:46:24 <zombor> so i made a customer, and an invoice
23:47:06 <zombor> i choose the income account, and describe what the items were
23:47:35 <zombor> so i get the transaction in accounts receivable, but how can i deduct my cost from the inventory account?
23:48:14 <zombor> i had $200 in sales, but it shows $200 in profit at the bottom, when i should really be $30 or something
23:48:30 <zombor> since my cost would be 170 in that case
23:49:11 <warlord> You have to manually account for COGS
23:50:13 <warlord> The way it's set up is that you'd use a Vendor Bill to account for the purchase of inventory, and then map that to a Customer Invoice when you sell it.. Then you'd have offsetting Income and Expense accounts.
23:50:28 <warlord> (that's just how it's implemented right now)
23:50:52 <elb> if the purchase of those items had been in your database (instead of, presumably, them being transferred in as an opening balance), it would be correct(er)
23:51:20 <zombor> yes, i have everything as an opening balance right now
23:52:17 <zombor> should i have all my initial inventory as a Vendor Bill then?
23:52:20 <warlord> Ahh. Yeah, that's why it's not really coming out right.
23:52:28 <warlord> Umm.. Maybe?
23:52:33 <warlord> IANAA
23:52:38 <elb> Is there a way to not load all of the gnucash modules (or whatever you would call them) at startup? Reports take >50% of my startup time (judging by the progress text on the splash screen) and I virtually never use them -- I'd rather load them during the few runs I need them, than wait for them every time.
23:53:02 <zombor> hm ok ill try it out with Bills then
23:53:21 <elb> (I'm running gnucash on a PIII/550MHz, and startup takes a good 30 seconds)
23:54:39 <warlord> elb: close them before you shutdown.
23:54:57 <warlord> elb: um, get a machine from this century!
23:56:01 <elb> there are no open reports, and never are
23:56:11 <warlord> startup for me takes 15 seconds the first time, and only 7 seconds the second time.
23:56:17 <elb> and that machine runs just fine for everything I use it for -- except anything claiming to be part of gnome ;-)
23:56:38 <warlord> elb: That's because you dont have the gnome libraried in core.
23:56:41 <warlord> How much RAM do you have?
23:56:59 <elb> ~500MB
23:57:07 <elb> gnucash should be in core
23:57:15 <elb> there's not enough else going on on that machine to push it up
23:57:18 <elb> push it out, rather
23:57:26 <elb> if I start gnucash, quit it, and restart it, it still takes forever
23:57:41 <elb> it takes like 12 seconds to start on my 2GHz Pentium M :-P
23:57:50 <elb> we'll talk about machines "from this century" when that is no longer the case :-P
23:58:40 <zombor> mine takes ~5-7 seconds =/
23:58:43 <warlord> Like I said 2.0.4 takes 15 seconds the first time, and then 7 seconds a second time..
23:58:52 <warlord> This is on my 2-year-old Thinkpad
23:59:11 <warlord> 1.8GHz Pentium M
23:59:16 <elb> your 2-year-old Thinkpad is faster than my 18-month-old Dell, then
23:59:48 <warlord> Also, 2.0 is MUCH faster starting up than 1.8 was..
23:59:57 <warlord> And we're working on improvements still.